Champion System Clarification

Sacadon

Ruben wrote: »

Thinking that they lied is a bit dumb. Changes are to be expected when they have been planning and testing this for so long. They didn't lie, they made a miscalculation and what they promised is no longer optimal, it seems.

If they really wanted to lie and not lose subs they wouldn't have said anything about this more than one month before it is even in the live server.

Let's be rational, guys.

Yep, it was mismanaged plain and simple. Doing it well is not easy, but that doesn't excuse it either and we still expect that it is done well as we should be.

Kraen

So, you lied to us, ZOS.

Once again, you are punishing the loyal players for playing the game. Once again, you are doing it willingly through the fact that there are other, more gentle sotulions. You told us we are going to be rewarded, and then, instead of reward, you throw a mud into our surprised faces.

I hope you will soon realize how bad this decision was. The good players will grind their way back ahead of all others, so you will erase the difference only VERY temporarily.


The only thing that will remain will be the feeling that we were cheated, yet again.

serenenightmare

And here I am wondering why people continue to play this game. ZOS continually disappoints and people still give them subscriptions. Makes me sad Its like giving your significant other multiple chances after they've cheated on you and continue to do so.

Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.

Jimm_ay

http://youtu.be/qDc_5zpBj7s

Enaijo

serenenightmare wrote: »

And here I am wondering why people continue to play this game. ZOS continually disappoints and people still give them subscriptions. Makes me sad Its like giving your significant other multiple chances after they've cheated on you and continue to do so.

Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.

Strange question. Maybe because they didn't fooled me before?

Jimm_ay

So If I am reading this correctly - If I have one vr 14 and the rest are level 1 they all get 30 CP?? as long as I have on VR1 character every character on my account gets 30 CP? wadaf?

hanilvor

Did anyone even read the first point she made? Veteran ranks are still in the game post update 6.

They still seem to be working out the details of actually removing the vr system. Part of those details include figuring out how to preserve the progression Veteran Ranked characters have achieved. If they didn't care about preserving this progression, they would just remove the Veteran ranks with update 6 and be done with it.

So just relax people. Go pet your khajiit, drink a beer, pop a xanax, or go and level an alt if your that paranoid about it.

Sacadon

hanilvor wrote: »

Go pet your khajiit, drink a beer, pop a xanax, or go and level an alt if your that paranoid about it.

too funny, heavy petting maybe.

Joy_Division

Unlikely_Ghostbuster wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

A long time ago I read something called "Peter's Evil Overlord List," which was a humorous but insightful critique of the lack of common sense that foiled the overcomplicated schemes of villains from comic-books, movies, and fantasy novels. One of the more pertinent points was to hire a 9 year old adviser as a safeguard to ensure that the most obvious flaw would not be missed by overthinking.

ZoS needs to hire a nine year old.

How did a company of otherwise bright, motivated, and experienced people NOT anticipate the overwhelming negative response to the CONJECTURE - and let's face it, it is just that - that VR14s would effectively be neutered to the same level as VR1s? The likely answer is they knew...but were confident that their direction of the game was for the best.

The nine year old would have instantly said, "It's not fair and people will feel cheated, lied to, screwed, etc."

Very insightful. However, the discord isn't over a conjecture. Prior to the 19th, the only conjectures being entertained by players were what the Champion System "onset" conversion rate from XP to CP would be, and also what the cap would be.

Also, you said:

Joy_Division wrote: »

This is a new system, a conservative approach is needed to ensure balance, and I do actually think we would be deprived of the feeling of progression if we actually received these points as opposed to earning them.

The issue is not that we don't want to earn Champion Points. As stated ad nauseam, we were assured on October 3rd that XP was being tracked for Champion Points -- that we were, in effect, already earning them.

The issue is not just with the reneged assurance that we *have been* earning Champion Points, it's also that this *isn't* a clean reboot. Our characters aren't being erased/reset. We're not starting from scratch. We cannot go back and do unrepeatable content on characters we might want to keep, and the only way to get that potential back would be to delete those characters to free up the slots. As others have pointed out, some people have multiple max-level characters that have *already* completed Cadwell's Silver/Gold -- the overwhelming majority of their Champion Point earning potential is gone for however many characters have already completed those quests.

No one is saying they want Champion Points they have not earned. They're saying ZOS promised us we were already earning them, and now we want ZOS to hold up their end.

Hmm, I picked a poor choice of words. I know we "earned" them. What I meant to say is that I'd be cool with getting the 30 in the beginning because their reasons for doing so have some validity. So "deprived of the feeling of progression if we received these points immediately when 1.6 came out opposed to as opposed to getting the level up "dings" that typically come with character advancement." But, as I noted in the post, ZoS HAS TO give us something for the 13 VR levels we effectively would lose in 1.7. I am content with waiting until 1.7 because I still have those 13 VR levels separating my from the freshly minted VR1s.

Also I think its kind of irrelevant that the Cadwell's content is not available to many of us. Even if it was and there were 100s of quests just waiting for these ex VR14s to do and gain champion points, I still think it would be totally unfair to simply erase months of character progression at the drop of a hat simply because there was stuff to do.

ZoS has not made any concrete announcements for 1.7 yet. You are right that they have not said what we want to hear, but they have not said what we fear yet either, namely there would be zero compensation (although their silence in this regard is a very legitimate worry). They really should be more concrete and give VR14s some reason to believe the time they invested will not go *poof* once 1.7 hits.

Tomsy

Surely there is a better way of allocating champion points in the new system. Those of us who have played and payed over the last 6 or so months deserve more points. Why shouldn't players who have put so much time into the game be stronger then those who have one vr1 character?

Rune_Relic

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hi everyone,

As many of you know, the Champion System is designed to be a replacement for the Veteran System. Internally, we have been implementing and testing the Champion System for the last few months. During that iteration time we’ve learned a lot. This changed some of our intended launch goals for the system. Specifically of concern is the number of Champion Points earned before the system launches. Here are four of the most salient points with regards to the number of Champion Points earned when we launch phase 3 with Update 6 and the reasons for the change:

1. The system needs to be integrated in phases, leaving the Veteran Ranks in place for phase 3.
   
   Because the Champion System is layered on top of the Veteran System, the power differential between players from Veteran Rank 1 to Veteran Rank 14 still exists. There are many reasons we haven’t fully eliminated Veteran Ranks, chiefly a sense of progression in character and itemization progression. In the current phase that progression still exists. Layering a second progression can exacerbate player separation issues, especially when there is a lot of variance in the Champion System introduction. This phased-in approach is good for the game, but with dual progression post-50, it means we have to be even more careful when making changes.
   
   
2. The system should give more value for each point spent than originally conceived.
   
   A second thing we learned is that each Champion Point needs to have more impact on the stats it is altering than originally planned. This came up frequently in our internal feedback sessions. Responding to that feedback, we decreased the number of overall points in the system (14,400 to 3,600), but kept the range of what they could alter the same. Because each point is more valuable there are less points overall in the system. Thus we can’t give out as many points with the introduction of the system as originally believed.
   
   
3. The system has to account for relative power values of the game.
   
   We had to start narrowing down on the variables for our content in the game. Because we are changing many of the abilities and base factors in the gameplay, we needed to start with less of a variance in player power to achieve a good introduction of the system. Or more simply, the more points we give out now, the harder it is to find a good place between various balance points: PvP, overland content, Veteran Content, Craglorn, Dungeons, Trials, etc…
   
   
4. The system shouldn’t separate players more.
   
   This is pretty self-explanatory, and is related to the first point. While the system is meant to have built in safeguards against players pulling away from each other too dramatically – those systems aren’t in currently. A 1-to-1 XP conversion to Champion XP was too dramatic.

Also, when phase 3 of the Champion System goes live with Update 6, all accounts that have at least one Veteran Rank character on them will automatically receive 30 Champion Points. These 30 Champion Points, though applied to your account, are distributed in full to each individual character on your account, just as Champion Points you earn are. So, if you have 5 characters, at least one of which is Veteran Rank 1 or higher, all five of those characters will have 30 CP to spend. You will not be awarded more Champion Points for having five Veteran Characters versus just one. You will also be able to begin earning Champion Points on any Veteran Rank character from that point forward.

We feel confident that our current solution is better for the enjoyment of the game overall than our originally announced design. This comes from weeks of testing the system. While iterating on solutions and changing the design is a normal and necessary part of the game making process, we definitely understand how changes to a system like this can be frustrating and seem to come from nowhere.

That said, we’re going to continue to be open about our plans and designs for the future of ESO. While a change in development like this can be frustrating, it isn’t a reason for us to not communicate. We never intend to mislead, but sometimes even our best ideas just don’t work out once they get into the game. We feel the Champion System is still going to be a fun way for you to keep customizing your character to suit your tastes and specializing in ways that make you unique. We’re looking forward to you giving it a trial run on the PTS, and sending us your feedback.

EVERYBODY L2R!
I Have highlighted everything you need to clear this mess up.
PHASE 4 - is when Vet ranks get eliminated.
Enough of the QQ.

eventide03b14a_ESO

I have never played an MMO that was this uncertain about character progression. In my experience with EQ and EQ2 they added skill trees and "alternate advancement" lines years after the game came out. But the core method of leveling up was consistent and there were really only minor tweaks over a period of many years to that system and individual skills and abilities. In under a year they are now going to completely change character advancement for the second time. This whole thing is turning into a convoluted mess, and this has more to do with their insistence on having classes. If this had simply been a skill based game they could have much more easily tweaked individual skill lines or added new skill lines without completely overhauling the entire system. When will the devs wake up and realize that having classes is making the whole thing a lot more complicated than it needs to be?

Nazon_Katts

Rune_Relic wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hi everyone,

As many of you know, the Champion System is designed to be a replacement for the Veteran System. Internally, we have been implementing and testing the Champion System for the last few months. During that iteration time we’ve learned a lot. This changed some of our intended launch goals for the system. Specifically of concern is the number of Champion Points earned before the system launches. Here are four of the most salient points with regards to the number of Champion Points earned when we launch phase 3 with Update 6 and the reasons for the change:

1. The system needs to be integrated in phases, leaving the Veteran Ranks in place for phase 3.
   
   Because the Champion System is layered on top of the Veteran System, the power differential between players from Veteran Rank 1 to Veteran Rank 14 still exists. There are many reasons we haven’t fully eliminated Veteran Ranks, chiefly a sense of progression in character and itemization progression. In the current phase that progression still exists. Layering a second progression can exacerbate player separation issues, especially when there is a lot of variance in the Champion System introduction. This phased-in approach is good for the game, but with dual progression post-50, it means we have to be even more careful when making changes.
   
   
2. The system should give more value for each point spent than originally conceived.
   
   A second thing we learned is that each Champion Point needs to have more impact on the stats it is altering than originally planned. This came up frequently in our internal feedback sessions. Responding to that feedback, we decreased the number of overall points in the system (14,400 to 3,600), but kept the range of what they could alter the same. Because each point is more valuable there are less points overall in the system. Thus we can’t give out as many points with the introduction of the system as originally believed.
   
   
3. The system has to account for relative power values of the game.
   
   We had to start narrowing down on the variables for our content in the game. Because we are changing many of the abilities and base factors in the gameplay, we needed to start with less of a variance in player power to achieve a good introduction of the system. Or more simply, the more points we give out now, the harder it is to find a good place between various balance points: PvP, overland content, Veteran Content, Craglorn, Dungeons, Trials, etc…
   
   
4. The system shouldn’t separate players more.
   
   This is pretty self-explanatory, and is related to the first point. While the system is meant to have built in safeguards against players pulling away from each other too dramatically – those systems aren’t in currently. A 1-to-1 XP conversion to Champion XP was too dramatic.

Also, when phase 3 of the Champion System goes live with Update 6, all accounts that have at least one Veteran Rank character on them will automatically receive 30 Champion Points. These 30 Champion Points, though applied to your account, are distributed in full to each individual character on your account, just as Champion Points you earn are. So, if you have 5 characters, at least one of which is Veteran Rank 1 or higher, all five of those characters will have 30 CP to spend. You will not be awarded more Champion Points for having five Veteran Characters versus just one. You will also be able to begin earning Champion Points on any Veteran Rank character from that point forward.

We feel confident that our current solution is better for the enjoyment of the game overall than our originally announced design. This comes from weeks of testing the system. While iterating on solutions and changing the design is a normal and necessary part of the game making process, we definitely understand how changes to a system like this can be frustrating and seem to come from nowhere.

That said, we’re going to continue to be open about our plans and designs for the future of ESO. While a change in development like this can be frustrating, it isn’t a reason for us to not communicate. We never intend to mislead, but sometimes even our best ideas just don’t work out once they get into the game. We feel the Champion System is still going to be a fun way for you to keep customizing your character to suit your tastes and specializing in ways that make you unique. We’re looking forward to you giving it a trial run on the PTS, and sending us your feedback.

EVERYBODY L2R!
I Have highlighted everything you need to clear this mess up.
PHASE 4 - is when Vet ranks get eliminated.
Enough of the QQ.

You assume too much.

Darkrogue671

Nevermind.... I reread the OP.

Davadin

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hi everyone,

Also, when phase 3 of the Champion System goes live with Update 6, all accounts that have at least one Veteran Rank character on them will automatically receive 30 Champion Points.

so a VR1 gets 30 points, and a VR14 gets 30 points too? No more, no less?


That's bullsh*t, Gina, and you know it.

Davadin

Rune_Relic wrote: »

Emencie wrote: »

WraithAzraiel wrote: »

To answer you question, "How do you feel cheated?":

The announcements given prior to this past ESO Live, inferred/implied/damn near flat out told us that we should continue playing the game after hitting Max Level, that our activities and the XP garnered from said activities were being recorded in the background up to a certain CAP, to bestow us with equivalent reward for the amount of effort expended in the form of Champion Points.

Here's the rub:

Everyone with a V1 Character gets 30 Champion Points. Flat. No matter how much work someone put in to push their characters, to get the most bang for their buck, the most reward for their effort.

What they're saying is, "Hey we know you broke your ass leveling and dungeoneering and running trials but we're going to go ahead and give everyone the same reward, regardless if those people put in the work, just to be fair and communist err I mean balanced."

Yet another example where the concept of "risk vs reward" escapes them.

That's how people feel cheated. They had the rug yanked out from under them. There was no transparency, no warning, just BLAM "Oh hey all that work you did, all those hours you spent playing and killing and questing, we're only counting 30 of them. Sorry! (sucks to be you, you could've stopped playing your alts at V1 and you would've gotten the same reward, *** HA HA!)"

It's not a question of power, it's an understanding that the time spent wasn't worth it. And ergo, was wasted.

Wasn't the reward for finishing all that content the levels, gear and gold you got for running that content?

Is everyone here missing that they are making these changes in phases.

I feel like no one understands that ZOS agrees that people who are Vet14 should be more powerful than a Vet1 and so with 1.6 you still are! The CP to XP conversion is not happening right now because...

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Because the Champion System is layered on top of the Veteran System, the power differential between players from Veteran Rank 1 to Veteran Rank 14 still exists. There are many reasons we haven’t fully eliminated Veteran Ranks, chiefly a sense of progression in character and itemization progression. In the current phase that progression still exists. Layering a second progression can exacerbate player separation issues, especially when there is a lot of variance in the Champion System introduction. This phased-in approach is good for the game, but with dual progression post-50, it means we have to be even more careful when making changes.

Do you all really think that a VR1 + 30CP will be equivalent to a VR14+30CP?

When we get our CP per XP there will be no more vet levels. That isn't happening yet. Phases.

Amen. Someone actually gets it.
You are STILL V14 or whatever character you are.
You have lost nothing...nil ...zilch.
All thats happened is every Vet gets 30 points.

IF/WHEN they remove the VET system AND you dont get compensated.
THEN scream all you like!

tbh, I don't care.

Sure, it'll come in phases. But no matter how you slice or dice it, in this phase, comes 1.6, the VR14 are just as a VR1.

I don't care about the existing power difference. I don't care how VR14 is still a gazillion times more powerful than VR1.

Fact is, champion system got introduced, and instead of acknowledging that VR14 has invested more than VR1 (arguably), everybody gets to start at the same playing field.

That's bullsh*t. That's a poor way of managing expectation and phase/tiered release planning.

edit: *WHEN* the next phase is introduced, and VR14, MAYBE, gets compensated more than VR1, THEN, we'll stop screaming and yelling. What else do you expect? We're the paying f**kin customers.

IF/WHEN they remove the VET system AND you dont get compensated.
THEN scream all you like!

A lot of people here has zero clue on customer/user expectation. I hope they'll never get to be in charge of customer-facing management.

Rune_Relic

Nazon_Katts wrote: »

Rune_Relic wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hi everyone,

As many of you know, the Champion System is designed to be a replacement for the Veteran System. Internally, we have been implementing and testing the Champion System for the last few months. During that iteration time we’ve learned a lot. This changed some of our intended launch goals for the system. Specifically of concern is the number of Champion Points earned before the system launches. Here are four of the most salient points with regards to the number of Champion Points earned when we launch phase 3 with Update 6 and the reasons for the change:

1. The system needs to be integrated in phases, leaving the Veteran Ranks in place for phase 3.
   
   Because the Champion System is layered on top of the Veteran System, the power differential between players from Veteran Rank 1 to Veteran Rank 14 still exists. There are many reasons we haven’t fully eliminated Veteran Ranks, chiefly a sense of progression in character and itemization progression. In the current phase that progression still exists. Layering a second progression can exacerbate player separation issues, especially when there is a lot of variance in the Champion System introduction. This phased-in approach is good for the game, but with dual progression post-50, it means we have to be even more careful when making changes.
   
   
2. The system should give more value for each point spent than originally conceived.
   
   A second thing we learned is that each Champion Point needs to have more impact on the stats it is altering than originally planned. This came up frequently in our internal feedback sessions. Responding to that feedback, we decreased the number of overall points in the system (14,400 to 3,600), but kept the range of what they could alter the same. Because each point is more valuable there are less points overall in the system. Thus we can’t give out as many points with the introduction of the system as originally believed.
   
   
3. The system has to account for relative power values of the game.
   
   We had to start narrowing down on the variables for our content in the game. Because we are changing many of the abilities and base factors in the gameplay, we needed to start with less of a variance in player power to achieve a good introduction of the system. Or more simply, the more points we give out now, the harder it is to find a good place between various balance points: PvP, overland content, Veteran Content, Craglorn, Dungeons, Trials, etc…
   
   
4. The system shouldn’t separate players more.
   
   This is pretty self-explanatory, and is related to the first point. While the system is meant to have built in safeguards against players pulling away from each other too dramatically – those systems aren’t in currently. A 1-to-1 XP conversion to Champion XP was too dramatic.

Also, when phase 3 of the Champion System goes live with Update 6, all accounts that have at least one Veteran Rank character on them will automatically receive 30 Champion Points. These 30 Champion Points, though applied to your account, are distributed in full to each individual character on your account, just as Champion Points you earn are. So, if you have 5 characters, at least one of which is Veteran Rank 1 or higher, all five of those characters will have 30 CP to spend. You will not be awarded more Champion Points for having five Veteran Characters versus just one. You will also be able to begin earning Champion Points on any Veteran Rank character from that point forward.

We feel confident that our current solution is better for the enjoyment of the game overall than our originally announced design. This comes from weeks of testing the system. While iterating on solutions and changing the design is a normal and necessary part of the game making process, we definitely understand how changes to a system like this can be frustrating and seem to come from nowhere.

That said, we’re going to continue to be open about our plans and designs for the future of ESO. While a change in development like this can be frustrating, it isn’t a reason for us to not communicate. We never intend to mislead, but sometimes even our best ideas just don’t work out once they get into the game. We feel the Champion System is still going to be a fun way for you to keep customizing your character to suit your tastes and specializing in ways that make you unique. We’re looking forward to you giving it a trial run on the PTS, and sending us your feedback.

EVERYBODY L2R!
I Have highlighted everything you need to clear this mess up.
PHASE 4 - is when Vet ranks get eliminated.
Enough of the QQ.

You assume too much.

How am I assuming anything written in black and white in front of you lol

Rune_Relic

Davadin wrote: »

Rune_Relic wrote: »

Emencie wrote: »

WraithAzraiel wrote: »

To answer you question, "How do you feel cheated?":

The announcements given prior to this past ESO Live, inferred/implied/damn near flat out told us that we should continue playing the game after hitting Max Level, that our activities and the XP garnered from said activities were being recorded in the background up to a certain CAP, to bestow us with equivalent reward for the amount of effort expended in the form of Champion Points.

Here's the rub:

Everyone with a V1 Character gets 30 Champion Points. Flat. No matter how much work someone put in to push their characters, to get the most bang for their buck, the most reward for their effort.

What they're saying is, "Hey we know you broke your ass leveling and dungeoneering and running trials but we're going to go ahead and give everyone the same reward, regardless if those people put in the work, just to be fair and communist err I mean balanced."

Yet another example where the concept of "risk vs reward" escapes them.

That's how people feel cheated. They had the rug yanked out from under them. There was no transparency, no warning, just BLAM "Oh hey all that work you did, all those hours you spent playing and killing and questing, we're only counting 30 of them. Sorry! (sucks to be you, you could've stopped playing your alts at V1 and you would've gotten the same reward, *** HA HA!)"

It's not a question of power, it's an understanding that the time spent wasn't worth it. And ergo, was wasted.

Wasn't the reward for finishing all that content the levels, gear and gold you got for running that content?

Is everyone here missing that they are making these changes in phases.

I feel like no one understands that ZOS agrees that people who are Vet14 should be more powerful than a Vet1 and so with 1.6 you still are! The CP to XP conversion is not happening right now because...

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Because the Champion System is layered on top of the Veteran System, the power differential between players from Veteran Rank 1 to Veteran Rank 14 still exists. There are many reasons we haven’t fully eliminated Veteran Ranks, chiefly a sense of progression in character and itemization progression. In the current phase that progression still exists. Layering a second progression can exacerbate player separation issues, especially when there is a lot of variance in the Champion System introduction. This phased-in approach is good for the game, but with dual progression post-50, it means we have to be even more careful when making changes.

Do you all really think that a VR1 + 30CP will be equivalent to a VR14+30CP?

When we get our CP per XP there will be no more vet levels. That isn't happening yet. Phases.

Amen. Someone actually gets it.
You are STILL V14 or whatever character you are.
You have lost nothing...nil ...zilch.
All thats happened is every Vet gets 30 points.

IF/WHEN they remove the VET system AND you dont get compensated.
THEN scream all you like!

tbh, I don't care.

Sure, it'll come in phases. But no matter how you slice or dice it, in this phase, comes 1.6, the VR14 are just as a VR1.

I don't care about the existing power difference. I don't care how VR14 is still a gazillion times more powerful than VR1.

Fact is, champion system got introduced, and instead of acknowledging that VR14 has invested more than VR1 (arguably), everybody gets to start at the same playing field.

That's bullsh*t. That's a poor way of managing expectation and phase/tiered release planning.

edit: *WHEN* the next phase is introduced, and VR14, MAYBE, gets compensated more than VR1, THEN, we'll stop screaming and yelling. What else do you expect? We're the paying f**kin customers.

IF/WHEN they remove the VET system AND you dont get compensated.
THEN scream all you like!

A lot of people here has zero clue on customer/user expectation. I hope they'll never get to be in charge of customer-facing management.

So V14 have greater armour / spell resist, greater weapon/spell damage, more stamina / health magicka.....than a VR1. Yet some homehow you feel you need more CS points too ?

I am lost for words.

Everyone starts CS on a level playing field. You get your compensation when your V14 power advantage is taken away. IN PHASE 4!

Artorious

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hi everyone,


[*] The system shouldn’t separate players more.

This is pretty self-explanatory, and is related to the first point. While the system is meant to have built in safeguards against players pulling away from each other too dramatically – those systems aren’t in currently. A 1-to-1 XP conversion to Champion XP was too dramatic.
[/list]

What..?

ZOS decides to launch Champion System after 8-9 months into the game and doesn't expect there to be a gap? What's wrong with you guys. Of course there will be a gap and definitely should be so. New people should not expect to be on par with guys who have been playing since day 1, they should accept that, you should accept that, and in time, if they put in equal effort, they'll be on the same level (considering the caps). This is not rocket science.

It's like saying, a golfer who enters the tournament 8 months late, expect to be nearly on the same score with a golfer who's been scoring, well for the past 8 months. It's not possible.

Also please elaborate on this line "The system shouldn’t separate players more." What separation? There is no separation right now, the level cap is VR14, everybody knows that and those who don't want to be "separated" can choose not to, by leveling...as is the game design, it's not like leveling is an optional thing in this game.

Inb4 those who will say "its just a game, blah blah snip", well, maybe it is for you (for me too) but not everyone, some people take it seriously and nothing wrong with it, as they are paying for it and should be compensated for their efforts, not robbed.

Jimm_ay

Rune_Relic wrote: »

Davadin wrote: »

Rune_Relic wrote: »

Emencie wrote: »

WraithAzraiel wrote: »

To answer you question, "How do you feel cheated?":

The announcements given prior to this past ESO Live, inferred/implied/damn near flat out told us that we should continue playing the game after hitting Max Level, that our activities and the XP garnered from said activities were being recorded in the background up to a certain CAP, to bestow us with equivalent reward for the amount of effort expended in the form of Champion Points.

Here's the rub:

Everyone with a V1 Character gets 30 Champion Points. Flat. No matter how much work someone put in to push their characters, to get the most bang for their buck, the most reward for their effort.

What they're saying is, "Hey we know you broke your ass leveling and dungeoneering and running trials but we're going to go ahead and give everyone the same reward, regardless if those people put in the work, just to be fair and communist err I mean balanced."

Yet another example where the concept of "risk vs reward" escapes them.

That's how people feel cheated. They had the rug yanked out from under them. There was no transparency, no warning, just BLAM "Oh hey all that work you did, all those hours you spent playing and killing and questing, we're only counting 30 of them. Sorry! (sucks to be you, you could've stopped playing your alts at V1 and you would've gotten the same reward, *** HA HA!)"

It's not a question of power, it's an understanding that the time spent wasn't worth it. And ergo, was wasted.

Wasn't the reward for finishing all that content the levels, gear and gold you got for running that content?

Is everyone here missing that they are making these changes in phases.

I feel like no one understands that ZOS agrees that people who are Vet14 should be more powerful than a Vet1 and so with 1.6 you still are! The CP to XP conversion is not happening right now because...

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Because the Champion System is layered on top of the Veteran System, the power differential between players from Veteran Rank 1 to Veteran Rank 14 still exists. There are many reasons we haven’t fully eliminated Veteran Ranks, chiefly a sense of progression in character and itemization progression. In the current phase that progression still exists. Layering a second progression can exacerbate player separation issues, especially when there is a lot of variance in the Champion System introduction. This phased-in approach is good for the game, but with dual progression post-50, it means we have to be even more careful when making changes.

Do you all really think that a VR1 + 30CP will be equivalent to a VR14+30CP?

When we get our CP per XP there will be no more vet levels. That isn't happening yet. Phases.

Amen. Someone actually gets it.
You are STILL V14 or whatever character you are.
You have lost nothing...nil ...zilch.
All thats happened is every Vet gets 30 points.

IF/WHEN they remove the VET system AND you dont get compensated.
THEN scream all you like!

tbh, I don't care.

Sure, it'll come in phases. But no matter how you slice or dice it, in this phase, comes 1.6, the VR14 are just as a VR1.

I don't care about the existing power difference. I don't care how VR14 is still a gazillion times more powerful than VR1.

Fact is, champion system got introduced, and instead of acknowledging that VR14 has invested more than VR1 (arguably), everybody gets to start at the same playing field.

That's bullsh*t. That's a poor way of managing expectation and phase/tiered release planning.

edit: *WHEN* the next phase is introduced, and VR14, MAYBE, gets compensated more than VR1, THEN, we'll stop screaming and yelling. What else do you expect? We're the paying f**kin customers.

IF/WHEN they remove the VET system AND you dont get compensated.
THEN scream all you like!

A lot of people here has zero clue on customer/user expectation. I hope they'll never get to be in charge of customer-facing management.

So V14 have greater armour / spell resist, greater weapon/spell damage, more stamina / health magicka.....than a VR1. Yet some homehow you feel you need more CS points too ?

I am lost for words.

Everyone starts CS on a level playing field. You get your compensation when your V14 power advantage is taken away. IN PHASE 4!

I would just be curious to know - how many vr 14's there are in the total population count - heck vr 6 -14 - since they are setting it at vr1 -14 gets the same CP - I would think anyone who progressed above 1 knows how hard it was to get there.....then you know how many people you are affecting.

Pallmor

xMovingTarget wrote: »

So what about "we track xp". This will make many many ppl mad.

30 points for all VR1+ accounts. Any XP above VR1 gets you nothing.

Joy_Division

Rune_Relic wrote: »

I am lost for words.

Everyone starts CS on a level playing field. You get your compensation when your V14 power advantage is taken away. IN PHASE 4!

They did NOT say that in Gina's post.. That's just your wishful thinking.

Pallmor

Gyudan wrote: »

While, I'm glad you took the time to explain all this, I can't help but feel cheated of the time I spent progressing my characters over hundreds of hours.

I'll be pondering whether to keep my subscription or not.

I'm generally not one to rage quit, but I'm thinking that I'm probably going to unsub at the end of the month too. Right now, I've got a VR2 main doing Cadwell's Silver. But every mission I do now is one that I'll never be able to revisit and get champion points for. So either I sit around trading and grinding for no real purpose (and wasting $15/month), or I leave until the Champion System is fully implemented and save myself some money.

Well, I hear Dragon Age Inquisition is nice.

Rune_Relic

Jimm_ay wrote: »

Rune_Relic wrote: »

Davadin wrote: »

Rune_Relic wrote: »

Emencie wrote: »

WraithAzraiel wrote: »

To answer you question, "How do you feel cheated?":

The announcements given prior to this past ESO Live, inferred/implied/damn near flat out told us that we should continue playing the game after hitting Max Level, that our activities and the XP garnered from said activities were being recorded in the background up to a certain CAP, to bestow us with equivalent reward for the amount of effort expended in the form of Champion Points.

Here's the rub:

Everyone with a V1 Character gets 30 Champion Points. Flat. No matter how much work someone put in to push their characters, to get the most bang for their buck, the most reward for their effort.

What they're saying is, "Hey we know you broke your ass leveling and dungeoneering and running trials but we're going to go ahead and give everyone the same reward, regardless if those people put in the work, just to be fair and communist err I mean balanced."

Yet another example where the concept of "risk vs reward" escapes them.

That's how people feel cheated. They had the rug yanked out from under them. There was no transparency, no warning, just BLAM "Oh hey all that work you did, all those hours you spent playing and killing and questing, we're only counting 30 of them. Sorry! (sucks to be you, you could've stopped playing your alts at V1 and you would've gotten the same reward, *** HA HA!)"

It's not a question of power, it's an understanding that the time spent wasn't worth it. And ergo, was wasted.

Wasn't the reward for finishing all that content the levels, gear and gold you got for running that content?

Is everyone here missing that they are making these changes in phases.

I feel like no one understands that ZOS agrees that people who are Vet14 should be more powerful than a Vet1 and so with 1.6 you still are! The CP to XP conversion is not happening right now because...

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Because the Champion System is layered on top of the Veteran System, the power differential between players from Veteran Rank 1 to Veteran Rank 14 still exists. There are many reasons we haven’t fully eliminated Veteran Ranks, chiefly a sense of progression in character and itemization progression. In the current phase that progression still exists. Layering a second progression can exacerbate player separation issues, especially when there is a lot of variance in the Champion System introduction. This phased-in approach is good for the game, but with dual progression post-50, it means we have to be even more careful when making changes.

Do you all really think that a VR1 + 30CP will be equivalent to a VR14+30CP?

When we get our CP per XP there will be no more vet levels. That isn't happening yet. Phases.

Amen. Someone actually gets it.
You are STILL V14 or whatever character you are.
You have lost nothing...nil ...zilch.
All thats happened is every Vet gets 30 points.

IF/WHEN they remove the VET system AND you dont get compensated.
THEN scream all you like!

tbh, I don't care.

Sure, it'll come in phases. But no matter how you slice or dice it, in this phase, comes 1.6, the VR14 are just as a VR1.

I don't care about the existing power difference. I don't care how VR14 is still a gazillion times more powerful than VR1.

Fact is, champion system got introduced, and instead of acknowledging that VR14 has invested more than VR1 (arguably), everybody gets to start at the same playing field.

That's bullsh*t. That's a poor way of managing expectation and phase/tiered release planning.

edit: *WHEN* the next phase is introduced, and VR14, MAYBE, gets compensated more than VR1, THEN, we'll stop screaming and yelling. What else do you expect? We're the paying f**kin customers.

IF/WHEN they remove the VET system AND you dont get compensated.
THEN scream all you like!

A lot of people here has zero clue on customer/user expectation. I hope they'll never get to be in charge of customer-facing management.

So V14 have greater armour / spell resist, greater weapon/spell damage, more stamina / health magicka.....than a VR1. Yet some homehow you feel you need more CS points too ?

I am lost for words.

Everyone starts CS on a level playing field. You get your compensation when your V14 power advantage is taken away. IN PHASE 4!

I would just be curious to know - how many vr 14's there are in the total population count - heck vr 6 -14 - since they are setting it at vr1 -14 gets the same CP - I would think anyone who progressed above 1 knows how hard it was to get there.....then you know how many people you are affecting.

Oh for *** sake.
You havent lost your vet rank YET.
Champion AND Vet both still exist in 1.6 and run in parallel "as stated by gina".
WHEN vet rank is removed you will be compensated with XP based CS points and I assume be downgraded to level 50 at the same time.

That means everyone in phase 4 will be level 50.
You will get lots of CS points to make up for the XP you gained as Vet.
BUT ONLY WHEN YOU CEASE TO HAVE VET CHARACTERS.

I give up with you lot. Got better things to do then spell out the obvious and what ZOS has said since day 1

Pallmor

Emencie wrote: »

xMovingTarget wrote: »

So what about "we track xp". This will make many many ppl mad.

Gyudan wrote: »

While, I'm glad you took the time to explain all this, I can't help but feel cheated of the time I spent progressing my characters over hundreds of hours.

I'll be pondering whether keeping my subscription or not.

I do not understand this reaction. They outright said you are not losing your VR14 ranks, skills, attributes or even gear.

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Because the Champion System is layered on top of the Veteran System, the power differential between players from Veteran Rank 1 to Veteran Rank 14 still exists. There are many reasons we haven’t fully eliminated Veteran Ranks, chiefly a sense of progression in character and itemization progression. In the current phase that progression still exists.

How do you feel cheated? You will still be as powerful as you ever were compared to a VR5, a VR1 or a level 34 character.

They are eliminating the VR ranks in phase 4. She only said you will keep your VR ranks *IN PHASE 3* (1.6).

Allow me to summarize the real message here (and cut through all the BS):

This is a reset. They're going to knock all VR14 characters back down to the same levels as VR1's. This is to make the game more attractive to incoming players (and will probably coincide with the console release), so they don't feel so lost and outgunned in PvP by players who have been here since day one.

And to summarize even more concisely:

ZOS wants new players, and is willing to screw over the existing players to get them.

Joy_Division

Rune_Relic wrote: »

You will get lots of CS points to make up for the XP you gained as Vet.
BUT ONLY WHEN YOU CEASE TO HAVE VET CHARACTERS.

I give up with you lot. Got better things to do then spell out the obvious and what ZOS has said since day 1

It is not obvious as they did not say that in Gina' post.

xMovingTarget

Joy_Division wrote: »

Rune_Relic wrote: »

You will get lots of CS points to make up for the XP you gained as Vet.
BUT ONLY WHEN YOU CEASE TO HAVE VET CHARACTERS.

I give up with you lot. Got better things to do then spell out the obvious and what ZOS has said since day 1

It is not obvious as they did not say that in Gina' post.

You wont get any CS for tracked XP ever. Not even when they get rid of VR.

Source: German Thread
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/143786/erklaerungen-zum-championsystem#latest

ZOS_KaiSchober wrote: »

Leijona wrote: »

ZOS_KaiSchober wrote: »

Dies steht im Widerspruch zu früher getroffenen Aussagen, dass es mehr Championpunkte geben und dass diese Anzahl bis zu einer gewissen Obergrenze auf der accountweit erspielten Erfahrung basieren würde. Der Plan hat sich in der Zwischenzeit geändert und wir entschuldigen uns für die Verwirrung.

Und wir können vermutlich auch davon ausgehen, dass nicht geplant ist, die accountweit erspielte Erfahrung zu einem späteren Zeitpunkt auf die Championpunkte anzurechnen, korrekt?

Das ist nicht geplant. Wie eingangs geschrieben, spricht die im Designprozess eingetretene Reduzierung der maximal möglichen Championpunkte und die Erhöhung ihrer Bedeutung gegen die ursprünglich großzügiger geplante Verteilung von Start-Championpunkten für existierende Spieler.
Wir wollen aber sicher stellen, dass Spieler, die die meisten Inhalte schon abgeschlossen haben, beim Gewinn von weiteren Championpunkten nicht benachteiligt sind.

So, all gathered xp is lost! *applause to ZoS once again*

eventide03b14a_ESO

Pallmor wrote: »

Gyudan wrote: »

While, I'm glad you took the time to explain all this, I can't help but feel cheated of the time I spent progressing my characters over hundreds of hours.

I'll be pondering whether to keep my subscription or not.

I'm generally not one to rage quit, but I'm thinking that I'm probably going to unsub at the end of the month too. Right now, I've got a VR2 main doing Cadwell's Silver. But every mission I do now is one that I'll never be able to revisit and get champion points for. So either I sit around trading and grinding for no real purpose (and wasting $15/month), or I leave until the Champion System is fully implemented and save myself some money.

Well, I hear Dragon Age Inquisition is nice.

Nice doesn't even begin to describe that game. It's phenomenal would be better place to start. It's hard to compare a single player game to an MMO but the story is just really engaging (the cut-scenes really help with the narrative) and the characters animations make you really feel like you're moving through your environment along with the great graphics and the sandbox element to the game. It's practically bug free (amazing that people just accept bugs as part of a game) and you really have an impact on the story line. The decisions you make are not just trivial, they actually effect how the game plays out. There is no reason why an MMO couldn't have those elements. The only reason I believe ESO doesn't is because they attempted to have too much at once and as a result the game just feels really restrictive and and rushed. It's sad really. I had high hopes for ESO but I'll continue to hold out for an MMO that meets my expectations. The only real downside to DAI is that it's class based and even more restrictive than it's predecessor in what you can equip on your class. This would normally bother me, except you control 4 characters at once so it's not really an issue in terms of not being able to enjoy different builds.

EQBallzz

Thanks to @xMovingTarget for finding this. Their plans seem fairly clear now. I guess I was right to cancel my subscription. Hopefully, they change course before this goes live. Here is the German convo run through a translator (sorry if it's not a perfect translation..I don't speak German):

ZOS_KaiSchober wrote: »
This is in contrast to earlier statements made that there will be more points champion and that this number would be based to a certain upper limit on the account far earned experience. The plan has changed in the meantime and we apologize for the confusion.

Leijona wrote: »
And we can probably assume that there are no plans to credit the account wide experience earned at a later date on the points champion , correct?

ZOS_KaiSchober wrote: »
This is not planned. As initially written , says that has occurred in the design process reducing the maximum possible points champion and increasing their importance to the originally planned generous distribution of start- Champion points for existing players .
But we want to make sure that players who have already completed most of the content , are not disadvantaged in earnings of other points champion.

Mendra

Like many of my friends I am V14 . I play only one character that i love and spent about 2000 hours playing that game from the start.

I have now 13k+ achievement.

What i hear is that player who will have invested less time (maybe money) in game will be rewarded more than me because not only they'll have the same number of CP, but it will be easier for them to earn more CP.

I understand that you want to seduce new player. That you want them not to feel too far from the others. This is ok

But promising things that you will not deliver, giving more advantage to less invested players make no sense. Don't sell your soul.

You have your community and players are used to the game now. Stop rewriting it. Add more content and area instead.

At least this is my point of view and i wanted to share it.