Do You Want Progressive Raiding in ESO?

Laura

Yes, I think progressive raiding would be good for the longevity of the game.

kieso wrote: »

Progressive raiding becomes a boring repetitive grindfest where you login like a job at a certain time and perform your needed task at a chance for a reward or for a token to give you said reward and its always time gated. If you want to do something repetitive without much chance or change then I suggest a job at an assembly line.

With that said it's ok to add it as long as the rewards are exactly the same level as other means of game play; a good MMO has a system where by a player can get the exact same gear by either PVP, crafting or PVE; having a good meld between all forms of game playing allowing players to jump from one spectrum of the game to another which adds new experience for all types of players which in turn adds longevity to the game. To not do so just segregates players from one another and keeps them from trying out other styles of play therefore shortening a games longevity.

PvP yes. PvE yes. Crafting no - not in its current state. If it was overhauled to be equally difficult sure.


Raids are already reptitive and stupid in this game so your entire point is invalid. Raids are more repetetive in this game than in any other game I have ever seen.


Crafting in this game is easy because.

A.) No material is rare. Sorry not even wax compared to other games.

B.) Everyone does it because you don't actually have to create to get the best exp - you just deconstruct. They have literally created a crafting system where by most of them (the important ones) you ACCIDENTALLY get your crafting up.

C.) traits are literally just a matter of logging out. You aren't doing anything you aren't going out in the world and playing the game you are... just logging out or doing it aside your normal stuff. This makes crafting feel tacked on and this would be fine except that the gear is BIS.



If they are going to make all of them equal equal effort must be put in and crafting simply is easier in this game than in any other. Most games if you are going to make SUPER AMAZING STAFF OF THE AGES you would need a dragon heart to infuse within it to harness its power.... this game... just add more nightwood and orange item make sure you are crafting in the right place.


To add insult to injury all the crafting materials are extremely bloated because the materials needed to improve gear are the same from LEVEL ONE MATS ALL THE WAY UP. So most people have a surplus before they even max out there character! (I know I did)

Everyone crafts in this game most everyone makes there own armor creating even more antisocial behavior in an antisocial game. I see countless people leaving the game over it having "no end game" and "nothing to do". Something needs to change.

Having crafted make BiS in the way it is now isn't working. It simply is not working, the people that just want to sit around in town and sell there crafted goods are a very small minority compared to the people who actually want to get out and do stuff. As soon as they get there crafted set they get out and find... GASP... after about an hour you have nothing left to do! what happens then? most of the time they cancel there sub.

Crafting gear needs a revamp where you can add even rarer materials, and quite frankly it looks like they know its a problem from some of the discussions at quakecon. It even appears that using parts you skin from bosses to make gear is going to be a thing.

moxiesauce

Yes, I think progressive raiding would be good for the longevity of the game.

tankqullb16_ESO wrote: »

no problem with (difficult) raids aslong as it is not connected to a geargrind.
as that is the stupidest dumpshid ever invented by mmos.

Nailed it, That's the reason WoW did so poorly

Ser Lobo

Yes, I think progressive raiding would be good for the longevity of the game.

moxiesauce wrote: »

tankqullb16_ESO wrote: »

no problem with (difficult) raids aslong as it is not connected to a geargrind.
as that is the stupidest dumpshid ever invented by mmos.

Nailed it, That's the reason WoW did so poorly

Reality TV and Twerking are also incredibly popular. Doesn't stop them from being dumb, either.

Lets face it: the masses love simple, predictable and repetitive content. It's what sells, it's easily understood, and it's easy to develop for, all things considering.

I was hoping ESO was different, what with how it's started and all. But it won't be. Not where dollars and subscriptions are concerned.

isengrimb16_ESO

No, I don't believe this type of content has a place in the Elder Scrolls Universe.

And definitely NO to crafting materials you can ONLY get by "progression raiding". Leave that "only raiders deserve to get good stuff" garbola (I'd use a MUCH stronger word if it weren't for the kingergarten level censorship around here) at WoW's back door, please. That part is the WORST thing about that game.

Now that they appear to have gutted crafting, I see no reason to even bother going back there at all! Who gutted it? The elites, who don't want "just anyone" getting half-nice gear. To hell with 'em, they can use dyes to be special snowflakes now.

Ser Lobo

Yes, I think progressive raiding would be good for the longevity of the game.

isengrimb16_ESO wrote: »

And definitely NO to crafting materials you can ONLY get by "progression raiding". Leave that "only raiders deserve to get good stuff" garbola (I'd use a MUCH stronger word if it weren't for the kingergarten level censorship around here) at WoW's back door, please. That part is the WORST thing about that game.

I'd support crafting stations, traits, armor upgrades, crafted sets, etc ... all from end-game content. As long as it's from ALL end-game content.

Would prefer the hardest content rewards be limited to 'epeen' rewards, though. Flashy things like new styles, new colors, new animations, new mounts, etc. Works much better than increasing the players overall stats, in my opinion.

isengrimb16_ESO

No, I don't believe this type of content has a place in the Elder Scrolls Universe.

ruze84b14_ESO wrote: »

isengrimb16_ESO wrote: »

And definitely NO to crafting materials you can ONLY get by "progression raiding". Leave that "only raiders deserve to get good stuff" garbola (I'd use a MUCH stronger word if it weren't for the kingergarten level censorship around here) at WoW's back door, please. That part is the WORST thing about that game.

I'd support crafting stations, traits, armor upgrades, crafted sets, etc ... all from end-game content. As long as it's from ALL end-game content.

Would prefer the hardest content rewards be limited to 'epeen' rewards, though. Flashy things like new styles, new colors, new animations, new mounts, etc. Works much better than increasing the players overall stats, in my opinion.

Indeed. Gear is vital - vanity is for showing off. Let 'em show off with a unique appaloosa mount or something.

Zorrashi

No, I don't believe this type of content has a place in the Elder Scrolls Universe.

isengrimb16_ESO wrote: »

And definitely NO to crafting materials you can ONLY get by "progression raiding". Leave that "only raiders deserve to get good stuff" garbola (I'd use a MUCH stronger word if it weren't for the kingergarten level censorship around here) at WoW's back door, please. That part is the WORST thing about that game.

Now that they appear to have gutted crafting, I see no reason to even bother going back there at all! Who gutted it? The elites, who don't want "just anyone" getting half-nice gear. To hell with 'em, they can use dyes to be special snowflakes now.

Yeah, raiding for mats seems like the same thing as raiding for gear. Just more steps involved.

smeeprocketnub19_ESO

No, I don't believe this type of content has a place in the Elder Scrolls Universe.

No. If I wanted to raid or geargrind I would play EQ or *shudder* WoW

Tubben

I'm not sure. I think that...

I doubt that you can create good raids with how you play TESO right now.
For me it's a 'single player game' i can play with others.

If Zeni want to create raids, they have to change alot of things how you handle heals, target mobs and some other stuff.

Rune_Relic

No, I don't believe this type of content has a place in the Elder Scrolls Universe.

I know....give them a free spectate ticket to watch the arena contests
..perhaps 1 night in Dibellas local temple.
..become Molag Bal for one day.

arkansas_ESO

No, I don't believe this type of content has a place in the Elder Scrolls Universe.

Most every MMO has this sort of raiding. While I see it's appeal, I think that ESO would be better off seeking new ways to differentiate itself from the crowd in terms of activities to do and not just franchise alone, instead of adding these 'staple' features in. Thus, I voted no.

ArcanusMagus

No, I don't believe this type of content has a place in the Elder Scrolls Universe.

No, and not because of progressive raiding itself, but on account of what comes with it. This kind of system breeds a gear progression that kills games for me.

I remember SWTOR back when it started. There, it was a month or so of work for each tier of gear and it seemed like just as soon as you were kitted out, all of your hard-won gear was obsolete and on a vendor for cheap. Never have I felt more like I'm on a hamster wheel, and I don't want to see ESO go down that road.

dagtveit

Yes, I think progressive raiding would be good for the longevity of the game.

i know the tread is old, But what i realy dont understand why the pvp loving ppl complains about pve gear being better and such if they made it to progressive raiding etc.

No one is asking them to go pve. why do they need to go and get that awesome pve gear(for pve content) if pvp is what they like to do.

if you ask me they are not real pvpers. they just wine cause they cant instantly get the Best pve gear from crafting or whatever.

just make the gear stats 100% seperated. pvp bonuses on pvp gear. and example extra demage against bosses and dungeon mobs or something on pve gear. that way both gear wil give you awesomeness fighting normal open world pve content. and the gear will be even better for their respective purposes.

there is absolutely no reason that pve need to ruin the pve experience. just sepereate the stats completely. not like wow that you have some reselliance and so on. completely seperate use.

drschplatt

Yes, I think progressive raiding would be good for the longevity of the game.

It would be an ok idea, but I would like to see it limited to 12 players and more specifically designed for 3, 4 or 6 players. It's just too much trouble to get a group of 12 together who can master something like that. It ends up alienating a large majority of the players who never learn raid mechanics because it's too hard to train new people in a 12 man system. It shouldn't be a major focus right now.

WhiskyBob

Yes, I think progressive raiding would be good for the longevity of the game.

Yes but I would like to see more stuff like Dragonstar Arena, more 4player progressive content BUT:

LET IT SAVE THE PROGRESS

Veteran Dragonstar just takes too long. When I'm forming a vet DSA group i'm not asking "do you know all the tactics" but "do you have three (up to four) hours of spare time?"

TehMagnus

Yes, I think progressive raiding would be good for the longevity of the game.

That's kinda what VDSA was supposed to be about. In any case, 100% for this, ofc.

SkillzMFG

No, I don't believe this type of content has a place in the Elder Scrolls Universe.

I actually am not against this idea, but I think we PVPers need some lovin' too these days. No new PVP content was released since the launch and stuff has gotten a bit boring in Cyrodiil I must admit.

If Progressive Raids are to be added, I think ZOS should consider giving PVP ranks meaning, so that when you reach a new rank, you can get better gear (ofc u still have to pay some amount of AP for it).

And by no means should PVP and PVE players be divided by meaningless stats (like resilience in wow etc). Your builds are already different and you're already unique in your own way, especially here in ESO so I think further dividing would only cause balance issues.

VarilRau

Yes, I think progressive raiding would be good for the longevity of the game.

Now, SO is getting there, thats something you dont want to PUG,and i dont see any PUGs clearing manticora anytime soon.
Problem at the moment is that its only one raid. And even in SO i often wonder who designed the place. First boss is hard like heck, second and third bosses are pushover and totally worthless. Last boss is good but with a mechanic that usually oneshots two to 6 persons during the fight. There may be a different way to do this but until we figure it out it remains to be seen.

My main grief is the loot, however.

As of now, i have infallible eather hat with both divines and infused trait, infallible eather jerkin with reinforced trait x2 and robe with reinforced, also my pants and belt of infallible eather are impenetrable. Then i have a full set with few double pieces of the vicious ophidian, and almost a full set of the tank set. Most traits are crap for me as i dont do pvp - at least with those gear sets.

After 500 AA/HR runs i still dont have eather boots.

Why cant we have tokens? say 3 for manti, 1 for both the next two bosses, then 5 for serpent and so that each armor part would cost x currency. Weekly time reward 10 tokens. Then have a vendor like the alliance war at the undaunted tent that would sell you the gear you want.

I bet with my two characters that i did sub 10 minute weekly times this week will have yet one worthless neck or medium armor with sturdy trait in it.

Jack-0

Yes, I think progressive raiding would be good for the longevity of the game.

I'd rather not see a straight up copy of wow raids but I do like the idea of some of the end-game content including progression curves like this. I'd not restrict this to pve though, pvp needs more progression options/reasons to do it.

Lord_Kreegan

No, I don't believe this type of content has a place in the Elder Scrolls Universe.

Personally, I hate raiding... No, let me clarify that; I despise raiding. There is nothing more mind-numbingly boring than raiding, waiting hours to get the group together, rushing through content to get to the final boss who has the shiny objects, and then getting screwed on the rewards because some arrogant xxxxxxx has installed some self-serving version of DKP or other scheme to always reward himself first at the expense of others...

But, I think a progressive raiding system would be significantly superior to the existing Cadwell Silver and Gold system, and infinitely superior to the Veteran Rank system... which, as much as I despise raiding, sheds light on my opinion of the current "endgame".

The problem with raiding -- in all games -- is that it creates: (1) a gear treadmill; (2) a wall between raiding players and non-raiding players; and (3) even more elitists, to include elite raiding guilds, in-game than games of this genre already have. Ultimately, that does not bring the community together, but fractures it...

But it is usually advantageous to the longevity of a game. Those players whose epeen is tied to the latest shiny object available in the gear treadmill will continue to subscribe for months so they can do the same raid again and again and again and again and again and again and again...

It's very hard for them to understand that nobody else cares whether or not they've got the latest shiny object...

DDuke

Yes, I think progressive raiding would be good for the longevity of the game.

VarilRau wrote: »

Now, SO is getting there, thats something you dont want to PUG,and i dont see any PUGs clearing manticora anytime soon.
Problem at the moment is that its only one raid. And even in SO i often wonder who designed the place. First boss is hard like heck, second and third bosses are pushover and totally worthless. Last boss is good but with a mechanic that usually oneshots two to 6 persons during the fight. There may be a different way to do this but until we figure it out it remains to be seen.

My main grief is the loot, however.

As of now, i have infallible eather hat with both divines and infused trait, infallible eather jerkin with reinforced trait x2 and robe with reinforced, also my pants and belt of infallible eather are impenetrable. Then i have a full set with few double pieces of the vicious ophidian, and almost a full set of the tank set. Most traits are crap for me as i dont do pvp - at least with those gear sets.

After 500 AA/HR runs i still dont have eather boots.

Why cant we have tokens? say 3 for manti, 1 for both the next two bosses, then 5 for serpent and so that each armor part would cost x currency. Weekly time reward 10 tokens. Then have a vendor like the alliance war at the undaunted tent that would sell you the gear you want.

I bet with my two characters that i did sub 10 minute weekly times this week will have yet one worthless neck or medium armor with sturdy trait in it.

I believe Need/Greed system (only for difficult, non PUG content like SO) could also fix the loot system, without making it too easy to get gear.

Another thing I find needing addressing before the next raid/trial they add is that only the last boss has something of value. This makes progressing in the raid/trial extremely frustrating, when you're getting nothing for your efforts until you down that last boss.
And if last boss gets bugged (looking at you, Serpent) you get pretty much nothing for your efforts.

I'd like a system where all the bosses drop pieces of the set, but are limited to certain piece.

E.g. Mantikora would drop half of the good stuff (Vicious Ophidian etc), while Serpent dropped the other half (+perhaps some special weapon sets etc).

Layenem

Yes, I think progressive raiding would be good for the longevity of the game.

I would like to add in that enrage timers are horrible raiding mechanics. They are lazy and usually lead to encouraging raid teams to learn exploits at a far quicker rate, which negates the mechanic all together, when the developers could have simply created a long and enduring fight from the beginning.

Soft enrage is something I do enjoy, however. Which is basically after a long amount of time, say 20 minutes, the boss doesn't go into a 1 shot kill mode but the boss and/or all other mechanics deal an additional 50% damage (% varies depending on base mechanics)...

EQ1 is STILL the undeniable king of raids. By MILES!!! (Kilometers for our EU players /grin)

Lied

No, I don't believe this type of content has a place in the Elder Scrolls Universe.

Personally, I wouldn't even stick around to see the balance issues this would create for PvP and PvE. I'm only here now because removing Veteran Ranks and the advertised diminishing returns of the Champion system gives me reason to hope ZOS can finally get a grip on player stats--not even hating on linear progression, simply soft caps and unintentional results that get ineffective remediation with the current system.

Tier after tier of raid gear? Sorry, I just don't have faith that it would be implemented in a successful way. If it was implemented in a seasonal sort of way it might work, but I'd imagine that anyone who is pro-progressive raids would not consider it a progressive raid system if the only 2 tiers were effectively "this 1 new tier" and "the previous tier". No offense meant.

Blud

No, I don't believe this type of content has a place in the Elder Scrolls Universe.

I play ESO for PVP. I don't much enjoy PVE. I already feel pressure to run Undaunted dailies. It's more of a chore than fun for me. I don't like it.

If there is raiding and that raiding gear is useful in PVP, then I won't be able to keep playing. I just don't want to have to PVE to be competitive in PVP. That's why I don't play any raiding progression games. Hate that ***.

If the gear you get there is only good for PVE and not for PVP, then I would be fine with it. If we have a totally separate PVP gear or crafted gear, I would be fine with whatever people who like gear grinds want. I hate gear grinds.

And progressive raiding models suck up too much developer time. I want to see more done with Cyrodiil for PVP people.

DeLindsay

Yes, I think progressive raiding would be good for the longevity of the game.

Layenem wrote: »

EQ1 is STILL the undeniable king of raids. By MILES!!! (Kilometers for our EU players /grin)

And how long has EQ had to get it right? Just saying, ESO isn't even 1 year old yet and I think ZoS is doing a reasonably good job so far and the future does seem bright, if they do all the things they've talked about. ESO has more going for it within it's first year than many MMO's did in their first year, that's saying something for the hard work ZoS has done. Yes, there are still issues with gameplay that need addressing, we all know that, and we all can't wait for new content like Wrothgar that's coming, hopefully with a new Dungeon/Vet Dungeon. We might have to wait until the new Group Zone to get more Trials, but I hope not.

k9mouse

No, I don't believe this type of content has a place in the Elder Scrolls Universe.

Mondo wrote: »

It might be a MMO but it is not like others and it should not be like others

That is my feeling. I do not care what a "standard" MMO have (standard = WoW clone). I see this idea will hurt the lore in the game. I like small groups and one get to know each other while they play -- something about making friends. 12 person dungeons are to big IMHO.

k9mouse

No, I don't believe this type of content has a place in the Elder Scrolls Universe.

Best Gear should come form crafting.

I am hold ZOS to their word on that. I have many single player games I could be playing, if they break their word on this promise.

~draws a line in the sand~

Aaron0887

No, I don't believe this type of content has a place in the Elder Scrolls Universe.

Absolutely not. I've played enough games where a new raid every six months is considered a satisfactory update to be glad it's not in ESO.

TehMagnus

Yes, I think progressive raiding would be good for the longevity of the game.

Lord_Kreegan wrote: »

Personally, I hate raiding... No, let me clarify that; I despise raiding. There is nothing more mind-numbingly boring than raiding, waiting hours to get the group together, rushing through content to get to the final boss who has the shiny objects, and then getting screwed on the rewards because some arrogant xxxxxxx has installed some self-serving version of DKP or other scheme to always reward himself first at the expense of others...

But, I think a progressive raiding system would be significantly superior to the existing Cadwell Silver and Gold system, and infinitely superior to the Veteran Rank system... which, as much as I despise raiding, sheds light on my opinion of the current "endgame".

The problem with raiding -- in all games -- is that it creates: (1) a gear treadmill; (2) a wall between raiding players and non-raiding players; and (3) even more elitists, to include elite raiding guilds, in-game than games of this genre already have. Ultimately, that does not bring the community together, but fractures it...

But it is usually advantageous to the longevity of a game. Those players whose epeen is tied to the latest shiny object available in the gear treadmill will continue to subscribe for months so they can do the same raid again and again and again and again and again and again and again...

It's very hard for them to understand that nobody else cares whether or not they've got the latest shiny object...

Raiding is an aspect of MMORPGs, just like PVP, just like Solo Questing and what you say can be applied to the others, I for one find questing in MMORPGs to be extremely dull/boring/repetitive, I mean it's allways: Kill X mobs, free village/person from a curse, kill x bandits to free the town, explore x dungeon to get the things that are inside while basically just going through the dungeon. Same thing, different skin, no reward for it except for skill points. Personally I just go from point A to point B and smash the 1 key to pass all the dialogue.

PVP? PVP is basically: I take a keep, you take the keep, then I retake the keep, then you retake the keep, then I retake the keep, then you retake the keep but also Impulse/Purge/Impulse/Purge/Impulse/Purge, all for a useless title that people used to farm and thus isn't even rare.

Do I despise PVP or PVE? No, PVP in small doses is still fun, PVE when the story is worth it can be nice even though I don't see why you would keep playing the game once you finished the quests.

Regarding raiding:

First of all, DKP is not an issue here since the interesting loot is bind on pickup and everybody has his/her own personal loot on the boss. Even if ZOS implemented progressive raiding, systems like DKP wouldn't exist because of the way loot is received.

Secondly, Caldwell and Veteran ranks are not raiding, it's solo questing, I don't see how this has anything to do with progressive raiding since progressive raiding is supposed to take place at max VR level and when supposedly you finished Caldwell's quests. Caldwell was just a mistake that removes any will from other players to reroll in a different alliance for the story and that I hope for the good of the game and the new players will be removed when champion system kicks in.

As for the gear treadmill, once again, it's a non argument when talking about TESO, especially when you compare it with other games that have raiding in it. The rewards clearly don't match the time or the effort that was put in the raid, meaningful gear is easy to obtain doing the first two trials which any half decent group can complete nowadays and even though the vicious serpent gear from SO is prolly one of the best stamina armors, it's not like many people looting it are actually PVPing with it since raiders mostly raid, especially those who are able to complete Sanctum easily. The only gear treadmill in the game is for the undaunted shoulder pieces, and that's not raiding content .

As far as the comunity getting fractured, I don't see the wall you speak of between raiding and non raiding players, it's just people playing different aspects of the game, it's normal they don't interact as much, just like a lawyer doesn't interact much with IT devs even though they coexist in the same world, moreover, 99% of the deals I make in the game when I buy & sell stuff are with casuals or people I don't play with. As for "elite" raiding guilds (I suppose you mean hardcore gaming guilds), its just groups of good players that want to clear hard content that come together and play together. I don't see where it's said that we should all be carebears and force ourselves to play with people who can't even dodge a red circle or even know what every skill they use does or don't understand a boss mechanics after fighting it 20x. People of the same skill/level allways come together, no matter the game, and good players aren't usually encline to wasting time with less good players, that doesn't mean though that they refuse to help out those less good players or give them advise when asked to, which is what most hardcore players actually do since, if those less good players evolve and become very good players, then it will mean one more people that they can raid with.

The only fracture in the community happens when players that are new to raiding expect it's going to be easy to get into groups with good players without trying hard. Almost every single player in every decent-hardcore PVE guild has gone through the same learning process, the same endless pug runs with noobs that many times end up failing, the same time to level skills to max level, the same time asking for clues about how to play or even more time testing new builds that work and everybody else is using afterwards. Some people think that even though others had to go through all that, they shouldn't, everything should be handed to them in a silver plater and they should be steamrolling all the content or getting carried by other players through that hard content and thus, when they see IG messages "LFM 1K DPS+ min and X or Y achievement", they decide to spend their time coming to the forums to QQ about the mean elitist players that don't want to play with them instead of actually asking the right questions:
- What am I doing wrong and how can I get that 1K DPS to be accepted in good groups?
- How can I get those achievements to be accepted into groups (hint, do what everybody else did, play a lot with random pugs, get lucky to land with a good group, clear instance, learn, learn, add good players to friend list and keep playing with better & better players that you meet along the way, just like anyone in the hardcore guilds did.)

Don't have time to do this? Well, there's PVP, but it also requires dedication, or solo questing, or pay2win games where you buy stuff that makes you imba (awfull games imo).

dhillegass88b14_ESO

I'm not sure. I think that...

It pains me to say no so I just can't do it. I was a very hardcore raider in WoW and loved every second of it... But I'll have to agree with "Vahrokh" he raises a very good point. But I'm thinking instead of major raids with 10+ people, maybe just very large 5 man dungeons more difficult than the current ones and give random loot with a slight stat increase, not so much that it makes stuff soloable (Don't want that), but just to give you a slight advantage. And then maybe shortly before they add more levels to the game they could put in a couple really hard dungeons that would increase stats a bit more, but not to much, just enough to make you somewhat stronger. That's my opinion anyway!