Do You Want Progressive Raiding in ESO?

kitsinni

Yes, I think progressive raiding would be good for the longevity of the game.

Kego wrote: »

kitsinni wrote: »

Kego wrote: »

I like the PvP Part and the focus should be right there and with the crafting. There are a lot better MMOs out there with Progressive Raiding Content and ZOS will never be competitive to them. (They couldn't even fix the Magicka vs Stamina inbalance in DMG Builds until now)

There for, keep focus on improving PvP and add some new Zones and easy peasy Causal Raids / 4 Man Dungeons for some fun benethe PvP.

So if I understand what you are saying you prefer PvP so the PvE Crowd can go screw themselves because you just don't care about them?

Jep, you are right. If you want more than Causal Raids, go else where. There is Wildstar, WoW and I'm sure some more of it. An MMO can't be good with every kind of Content, so there should be a focus and if I look at ESO than there strengh is Story Telling in PVE and the Cyrodiil PvP.

If Zergfest no skill cryodil PvP is the strength of the game then just shut the servers down now. I enjoy it and all but my God if the same groups taking and losing the same keeps with the same zergs and the same gank groups ganking people on the way is good PvP and the strength of the game then the ship is already at the bottom of the ocean.

Xeres14

Yes, I think progressive raiding would be good for the longevity of the game.

Leveling can only take a game so far. PvP also can only take this game so far. There has to be something after leveling to continue playing your max-level character. Progression raiding is by far the most successful mechanism to accomplish this.

And TBH, this is a pressing issue and should be, other than bugs, ZM's biggest priority.

BBSooner

Yes, I think progressive raiding would be good for the longevity of the game.

Id love to have world event bosses that that 40+ people to kill that spawn out in the world. Whether or not I'm interested in 40man instanced content - I dunno.

Laura

Yes, I think progressive raiding would be good for the longevity of the game.

Nox_Aeterna wrote: »

Laura wrote: »

Nox_Aeterna wrote: »

Personally i would not like that.

Even if ESO is also a themepark MMO , progressive raiding have their place on games like WoW.

I would prefer if ESO took another road, even more because usually this would brings the need for raiding gear , which is usually the best in the game , an issue in ESO where the best gear should come from crafting.

why should the best gear come from crafting? its dumb and annoying. It would be one thing if crafting was actually difficult or materials were hard to come by but as it is you get to max level and BAM your BIS in two minutes.

Having crafting be best in slot while simultaneously making crafting easier than in any other game was literally the dumbest idea I have ever seen.

One way or the other , is one of the premises of the game , that make it different to the other many games of this genre out right now.

To many this matter quite a lot , me included and i expect zen to keep their word.

Best gear comes from crafting.

sure but most of us thought that at the very least crafting would be difficult. Not - log out for a week while your trait is researched.

I would be perfectly fine with it if crafting items needed to craft the best gear were obtained in raids or dungeons. you can't possibly feel fulfilled with this games crafting could you? I mean literally everyone I know is a clothing crafter and almost everyone I know is proficient at EVERY CRAFT.

It has caused what is already an antisocial MMO to be even more anti social. Why go out and interact with others when you can just craft everything yourself? its absolutely silly.

Having some best in slots out in the world or at the very least items needed for crafting the best in slot encourages people to get out into the world.

BIS crafting has been tried before with an almost 100% failure rate (it was discussed as being one of the major contributing factors to FFXIV having to be redone)

The only time I EVER saw crafters making BIS work in a game was when most of the items needed for this was dropped off of bosses and crafting itself was very difficult.

Kafolarbear

Yes, I think progressive raiding would be good for the longevity of the game.

Vahrokh wrote: »

I have been very hard core raider for years (in First 10 Worldwide Kills guilds) and have done up to 40 men raids with a lot of interest. So it is very painful for me to say "No".

Imo ESO has a lore, a philosophy centered on the "Epic group of 4-5 heroes" or "Company of [Epic Name]". Something closer to Tolkien relatively small and tight protagonist groups than to the "armies" of somewhat faceless team mates.

Also, the era of huge raids is over, the playerbase has changed and tends to have less "continuous span" time for these activities, beginning with me.

Finally, those kinds of raids come almost naturally with gear and stats inflation and historically this has a bad effect on PvP and also on "outdoor PvE".
Yes PvE too, because a kitted raider can solo the impossible so the developers have to either see those raiders complain how content is super-easy AND "normal players" complaining raiders are insta-killing everything and leave them nothing OR the developers would make outdoor PvE too difficult for all but those raiders.

Wow, insightful for you sir, now I wish I had read you post before answering the poll. I answered "yes" because this is my first MMO (Being a TES fan) large group fights always seem so tactful and intricate for me. (I can't wait for trials! ) I do like how the OP put it, but make it for 4-man groups, keep that "small epic group feeling" alive as it has always been with TES.

Laura

Yes, I think progressive raiding would be good for the longevity of the game.

Kafolarbear wrote: »

Vahrokh wrote: »

I have been very hard core raider for years (in First 10 Worldwide Kills guilds) and have done up to 40 men raids with a lot of interest. So it is very painful for me to say "No".

Imo ESO has a lore, a philosophy centered on the "Epic group of 4-5 heroes" or "Company of [Epic Name]". Something closer to Tolkien relatively small and tight protagonist groups than to the "armies" of somewhat faceless team mates.

Also, the era of huge raids is over, the playerbase has changed and tends to have less "continuous span" time for these activities, beginning with me.

Finally, those kinds of raids come almost naturally with gear and stats inflation and historically this has a bad effect on PvP and also on "outdoor PvE".
Yes PvE too, because a kitted raider can solo the impossible so the developers have to either see those raiders complain how content is super-easy AND "normal players" complaining raiders are insta-killing everything and leave them nothing OR the developers would make outdoor PvE too difficult for all but those raiders.

Wow, insightful for you sir, now I wish I had read you post before answering the poll. I answered "yes" because this is my first MMO (Being a TES fan) large group fights always seem so tactful and intricate for me. (I can't wait for trials! ) I do like how the OP put it, but make it for 4-man groups, keep that "small epic group feeling" alive as it has always been with TES.

Trials are like a sixflags. You look forward to it, wait in line for an hour or two for a five minute ride. Difference is its not nearly as exciting =p


I'd actually be ok with very difficult progression four mans too. Why not have a toggle for large and small group. But the fact of the matter is nothing in this game even remotely poses a challenge (even for pugs which I lead every night) and the end game content can be completed in less than 15 minutes. That needs to change.

kitsinni

Yes, I think progressive raiding would be good for the longevity of the game.

This is probably the least effort easiest crafting game to ever hit the market. It doesn't really make much sense to me that they would make the best gear from the easiest crafting in the history of MMO. You can literally max every crafting profession with almost no effort and never craft a single item. There are no real rare mats, all recipes except provisioning are there for everyone just to have for free. There is no effort at all involved with crafting other than click a button and wait X days.

The most difficult part of crafting is finding a way to store the mats.

Krinaman

No, I don't believe this type of content has a place in the Elder Scrolls Universe.

I don't care if they add such content so long as you aren't forced to do it to get the best gear in the game. Of course, without such rewards you won't get a group to do it so effectively I am voting against them.

At one point in time I enjoyed raiding and looked forward to raid nights. Now I completely loath the whole process. Between loot drama, DKP systems where the guild leader and his buddies always have 10 times the DKP as everybody else, people who can't make it week after week until the raid is on farm, people who suddenly can't make it once they got all their gear, and on and on and on I've got to the point where I can't stand it anymore.

Kego

No, I don't believe this type of content has a place in the Elder Scrolls Universe.

Laura wrote: »

BIS crafting has been tried before with an almost 100% failure rate (it was discussed as being one of the major contributing factors to FFXIV having to be redone)

The only time I EVER saw crafters making BIS work in a game was when most of the items needed for this was dropped off of bosses and crafting itself was very difficult.

BIS crafting was a success with Dark Age of Camelot and it wasn't difficult, only time consuming for the Crafter to get to the maximum Crafting Skill. For Players it was just a simple buy at merchant, find a Spellcrafter and you are done with. Get Some nice PvE Ring and Neglace Drop and your Armor / Weapon Set is complete for the next 6 to 12 Month.

Funny fact: Dark Age of Camelot lost most Player cause of the introduction of PvE Armor in the Expansion of Atlantis.

As you can see, it can work. But must not.

Another approach: Don't bring Raid Instance in the Game, just make Raid Zones open for Everyone. Balance them around 20 to 30 People. If they come with 100 People, than the fight is super easy but you have divide all Drops through 100 People instead of 20 to 30.

kitsinni

Yes, I think progressive raiding would be good for the longevity of the game.

Kego wrote: »

Laura wrote: »

BIS crafting has been tried before with an almost 100% failure rate (it was discussed as being one of the major contributing factors to FFXIV having to be redone)

The only time I EVER saw crafters making BIS work in a game was when most of the items needed for this was dropped off of bosses and crafting itself was very difficult.

Funny fact: Dark Age of Camelot lost most Player cause of the introduction of PvE Armor in the Expansion of Atlantis.

Even Funnier Fact: Dark Age of Camelot had lost most of its player far before that expansion was even in development.

kitsinni

Yes, I think progressive raiding would be good for the longevity of the game.

Funny I don't remember 100 people zergs stealing castles in any of the other ESgames so we should probably just get rid of PvP because it isn't consistent with ES games at all.

aleister

Yes, I think progressive raiding would be good for the longevity of the game.

This game definitely needs raids unlike trials. Right now, it seems interest in trials in pretty limited as it is very hard to get groups together for them, guild or no guild. This is a great opportunity for ESO to distinguish itself from other MMOs by offering raids that are more dynamic and that leverage the benefits of all classes and playstyles and without overemphasizing DPS above all else.

And make them rewarding. Give people a compelling reason to do them.

Pmarsico9

No, I don't believe this type of content has a place in the Elder Scrolls Universe.

Every game that implements progressive raiding then becomes all about progressive raiding, sucking up development time that should be spent on making a whole, complete game.

No way. In fact, if they were to put it in and make this like essentially every other MMO, I'd unsub.

Progressive raiding then yields nine difficulties of the same content that is effectively the same content. No no no no.........Push out 4 mans and 12 man trials. It's that simple. We already are seeing what is happening with Trials (Bathrobes and sticks........etc.)

moxiesauce

Yes, I think progressive raiding would be good for the longevity of the game.

Tabbycat wrote: »

I like the idea of progressive raiding and I think it will be good for the longevity of the game. But I think that ZOS would have to be very careful in how they implement it in order to make sure that it fits the world of Elder Scrolls while at the same time doesn't result in too much player separation.

There wont be too much player separation, they'll release season 1 then everyone tries for that gear, then season two will come out, of course everyone will strive for that next. To eliminate the separation season 1 gear will be easy to obtain, so all newly 50 players will be able to gain some decent gear quickly, then work on season 2. This process will continue for season 3 making season 2 gear easy to obtain and so fourth.

*These systems work well, use GW2 and WoW for examples. GW2 is a great game F2P but no treadmill to run, so really nothing to strive for. WoW is famous for the treadmill, a sub game, and still running strong after all these years.*

khele23eb17_ESO

Yes, I think progressive raiding would be good for the longevity of the game.

Kego wrote: »

Jep, you are right. If you want more than Causal Raids, go else where. There is Wildstar, WoW and I'm sure some more of it. An MMO can't be good with every kind of Content, so there should be a focus and if I look at ESO than there strengh is Story Telling in PVE and the Cyrodiil PvP.

Their storytelling falls apart after 50 and has very little replay value. Mass PvP has always been a niche thing unless its a part of a meaningful and well developed sandbox system. Also, just as you have the right to tell others to go somewhere else for raids, they have the right to say 'no, I want them here'.

eliisra

If those progression based raids would be anything like trials, than no thanks.
Really struggling to enjoy them myself.

Would how ever not say no to something like 18-24-man raids, with work put into them.

Should have epic scenery, bosses that makes me sleep with the lights on, interesting mechanics and innovative fights. Real endgame raids that require multiple tanks, support, cc and healers, not just a blob of dps'ers that burns everything down in a few minutes. Easy standard version of the raid for casual players, than a hard version with extra challenges (and better rewards) for hardcore PvE'ers.

But I'm guessing most people want progression raiding for itemization and superior gear. I see a huge problem with that. Most games with progression raiding have gear specially designed for PvP. So the best raid gear with loads of extra stats and dmg, wont work against other players. But there is no limitations between PvP and PvE gear in ESO.

Do we really need more OP *** in PvP? Should PvP'ers be forced to grind PvE raids all day long to stay competitive in Cyrodiil/Imperial City?

moxiesauce

Yes, I think progressive raiding would be good for the longevity of the game.

Nox_Aeterna wrote: »

Laura wrote: »

Nox_Aeterna wrote: »

Personally i would not like that.

Even if ESO is also a themepark MMO , progressive raiding have their place on games like WoW.

I would prefer if ESO took another road, even more because usually this would brings the need for raiding gear , which is usually the best in the game , an issue in ESO where the best gear should come from crafting.

why should the best gear come from crafting? its dumb and annoying. It would be one thing if crafting was actually difficult or materials were hard to come by but as it is you get to max level and BAM your BIS in two minutes.

Having crafting be best in slot while simultaneously making crafting easier than in any other game was literally the dumbest idea I have ever seen.

One way or the other , is one of the premises of the game , that make it different to the other many games of this genre out right now.

To many this matter quite a lot , me included and i expect zen to keep their word.

Best gear comes from crafting.

I'm sure best gear will come from other means, but to really make it the best gear you will have to upgrade it through crafting. Maybe they will even add a type of scaling system with crafting so you can scale up lower level gear for appropriate mats.

kitsinni

Yes, I think progressive raiding would be good for the longevity of the game.

eliisra wrote: »

If those progression based raids would be anything like trials, than no thanks.
Really struggling to enjoy them myself.

Would how ever not say no to something like 18-24-man raids, with work put into them.

Should have epic scenery, bosses that makes me sleep with the lights on, interesting mechanics and innovative fights. Real endgame raids that require multiple tanks, support, cc and healers, not just a blob of dps'ers that burns everything down in a few minutes. Easy standard version of the raid for casual players, than a hard version with extra challenges (and better rewards) for hardcore PvE'ers.

But I'm guessing most people want progression raiding for itemization and superior gear. I see a huge problem with that. Most games with progression raiding have gear specially designed for PvP. So the best raid gear with loads of extra stats and dmg, wont work against other players. But there is no limitations between PvP and PvE gear in ESO.

Do we really need more OP *** in PvP? Should PvP'ers be forced to grind PvE raids all day long to stay competitive in Cyrodiil/Imperial City?

This game already has gear specifically designed for PvP and they already said they were going to have additional gear specifically for PvP.

Set stat limits in PvP and be done with it. Have PvP gear that has bonuses specific to PvP like the PvP gear already does. With stat limits you have PvP that is more skill based and less gear based anyway since everyone has more equal stats. That way they don't have to punish people who like to PvE so that PvP people are happy.

moxiesauce

Yes, I think progressive raiding would be good for the longevity of the game.

Mondo wrote: »

Im Ok with Raids and im Ok with new Gear from time to time but i would quit if Eso will become i game im forced to raid etc./Progessive Raiding is not got for THIS Game.

Dont know if you know what i mean my english is not that good

Gear treadmill sounds bad.. but until you really play a system that doesn't have you strive for anything, that once you reach max level and maxed gear your just bored every time you log in from nothing to look forward to or nothing to run to obtain gear. It's just bad and will ultimately result in a huge amount of players losing interest.

wrlifeboil

I'm not certain how many people want to do progressive raiding in an Elder Scrolls environment. If ZOS thinks there are enough players to spend the resources to do, they should go for it. Otherwise, they know what players are doing in game and they should focus on improving those features to keep them interested in handing over their $15/month.

moxiesauce

Yes, I think progressive raiding would be good for the longevity of the game.

wrlifeboil wrote: »

I'm not certain how many people want to do progressive raiding in an Elder Scrolls environment. If ZOS thinks there are enough players to spend the resources to do, they should go for it. Otherwise, they know what players are doing in game and they should focus on improving those features to keep them interested in handing over their $15/month.

Obvious by this poll alone most people want this, and I'm sure most that don't haven't experienced an MMO with an alternate. IMO they don't want this to turn into World of Warcraft. I don't blame them, but honestly WoW did do somethings right. When I first heard of GW2 not having a treadmill I was all for it, till I maxed out two characters then completely lost interest. Sometimes people just don't know what they want.

Snit

No, I don't believe this type of content has a place in the Elder Scrolls Universe.

I am no longer interested in games where the best content, best loot and endgame focus is on large groups of players doing coordinated dances.

There are many other games out there with raiding endgames. I've played a bunch of them over the past decade. I'm done with it. Small group content and PvP are my interests, and I'll seek a game that caters to them.

moxiesauce

Yes, I think progressive raiding would be good for the longevity of the game.

Snit wrote: »

I am no longer interested in games where the best content, best loot and endgame focus is on large groups of players doing coordinated dances.

There are many other games out there with raiding endgames. I've played a bunch of them over the past decade. I'm done with it. Small group content and PvP are my interests, and I'll seek a game that caters to them.

Dragon Star arena

Ser Lobo

Yes, I think progressive raiding would be good for the longevity of the game.

First, I'm more in support of four and eight man content, than 12-40. I can't say I've ever really enjoyed the hassle and stress of getting into large groups, trying to coordinate coms and teams, etc, and dealing with so many personalities.

The current 'Trials' format is obviously missing some important features, including progressive difficulty, scaled rewards, and even something simple, like mechanics not focused on DPS. It's so easy for development to find themselves building content that is focused on AOE or single target damage, and not think of how important team work, debuffs, buffs, etc, can be.

So I'll support adding in PvE events that focus on 'finesse points'. Or have scaled difficulty. Or that host larger groups, and smaller two-man teams. That have predictable mechanics, and unpredictable ones.

All of it, together, can make the game better, as long as you avoid the trap of required itemization (essentially, the proposed Champion Rating). Once you add that in, just like in WoW and plenty of other games for or since, it becomes less about enjoying the content and more about getting the gear.

If a player won't play content without having to have a carrot at the end, they aren't going to play that content when they get the carrot, either. The content is bad. Good content drives itself.

moxiesauce

Yes, I think progressive raiding would be good for the longevity of the game.

eliisra wrote: »

If those progression based raids would be anything like trials, than no thanks.
Really struggling to enjoy them myself.

Would how ever not say no to something like 18-24-man raids, with work put into them.

Should have epic scenery, bosses that makes me sleep with the lights on, interesting mechanics and innovative fights. Real endgame raids that require multiple tanks, support, cc and healers, not just a blob of dps'ers that burns everything down in a few minutes. Easy standard version of the raid for casual players, than a hard version with extra challenges (and better rewards) for hardcore PvE'ers.

They will be adding larger scale raids with out a timer, and hopefully done right. Not just 1 tank 2 heals (if that) and rest DPS. Though, trials will still be a means of gear, as well as DSA, dungeons, and PvP, I'm sure there will be others. I don't think ZoS want's to limit obtaining gear simply through large scale content.

Ser Lobo

Yes, I think progressive raiding would be good for the longevity of the game.

moxiesauce wrote: »

Snit wrote: »

I am no longer interested in games where the best content, best loot and endgame focus is on large groups of players doing coordinated dances.

There are many other games out there with raiding endgames. I've played a bunch of them over the past decade. I'm done with it. Small group content and PvP are my interests, and I'll seek a game that caters to them.

Dragon Star arena

I think the keyword in the post by @Snit, was 'cater'. And if I get their meaning right, I agree.

I too am tired of games where all the focus (all the best rewards, all the new updates, all the major systems) are related to large group events. I wouldn't mind those events being added to the game, but I would prefer them to keep the 'best' processes at the lower levels. Or at least make them equal.

This of course upsets the raiders, who are willing to go through all that stress and hassle and have the time, and see the difficulty of what they do (not with the mobs, but in dealing with others) as something which assures them superior rewards, and makes them better than other players.

If the only cycle is going to go back to pushing prime content only out to raiders, I would otherwise not support anything larger than what we currently have. I would actually prefer there not be any large group raids in the game, than give up the priority we (small group players) have right now in ESO.

wrlifeboil

moxiesauce wrote: »

wrlifeboil wrote: »

I'm not certain how many people want to do progressive raiding in an Elder Scrolls environment. If ZOS thinks there are enough players to spend the resources to do, they should go for it. Otherwise, they know what players are doing in game and they should focus on improving those features to keep them interested in handing over their $15/month.

Obvious by this poll alone most people want this, and I'm sure most that don't haven't experienced an MMO with an alternate. IMO they don't want this to turn into World of Warcraft. I don't blame them, but honestly WoW did do somethings right. When I first heard of GW2 not having a treadmill I was all for it, till I maxed out two characters then completely lost interest. Sometimes people just don't know what they want.

Creating a progressive raid system takes up a ton of resources and often only a small percentage of the players actually engage in progression raiding. I think WoW realized this back in BC so over the course of three expansions they created four different tiers for the same raid (lfr, flex, normal, heroic) to involve as much of the player base as possible. I wonder if there are enough players in eso to do that.

Snit

No, I don't believe this type of content has a place in the Elder Scrolls Universe.

There's a natural tension between small-group and raid play, if only because of loot. Games with raids rarely put best-in-slot gear anywhere else. ZOS has now moved in that direction as well. This is a big deal.

moxiesauce

Yes, I think progressive raiding would be good for the longevity of the game.

ruze84b14_ESO wrote: »

moxiesauce wrote: »

Snit wrote: »

I am no longer interested in games where the best content, best loot and endgame focus is on large groups of players doing coordinated dances.

There are many other games out there with raiding endgames. I've played a bunch of them over the past decade. I'm done with it. Small group content and PvP are my interests, and I'll seek a game that caters to them.

Dragon Star arena

I think the keyword in the post by @Snit, was 'cater'. And if I get their meaning right, I agree.

I too am tired of games where all the focus (all the best rewards, all the new updates, all the major systems) are related to large group events. I wouldn't mind those events being added to the game, but I would prefer them to keep the 'best' processes at the lower levels. Or at least make them equal.

This of course upsets the raiders, who are willing to go through all that stress and hassle and have the time, and see the difficulty of what they do (not with the mobs, but in dealing with others) as something which assures them superior rewards, and makes them better than other players.

If the only cycle is going to go back to pushing prime content only out to raiders, I would otherwise not support anything larger than what we currently have. I would actually prefer there not be any large group raids in the game, than give up the priority we (small group players) have right now in ESO.

It's really hard to say where this game will be in a few years, but I have the feeling they will figure out a system that will be right and give something to every type of player. Not everyone will satisfied, but when does that ever happen?

kieso

No, I don't believe this type of content has a place in the Elder Scrolls Universe.

Progressive raiding becomes a boring repetitive grindfest where you login like a job at a certain time and perform your needed task at a chance for a reward or for a token to give you said reward and its always time gated. If you want to do something repetitive without much chance or change then I suggest a job at an assembly line.

With that said it's ok to add it as long as the rewards are exactly the same level as other means of game play; a good MMO has a system where by a player can get the exact same gear by either PVP, crafting or PVE; having a good meld between all forms of game playing allowing players to jump from one spectrum of the game to another which adds new experience for all types of players which in turn adds longevity to the game. To not do so just segregates players from one another and keeps them from trying out other styles of play therefore shortening a games longevity.