Do You Want Progressive Raiding in ESO?

Ser Lobo

Yes, I think progressive raiding would be good for the longevity of the game.

moxiesauce wrote: »

ruze84b14_ESO wrote: »

moxiesauce wrote: »

Snit wrote: »

I am no longer interested in games where the best content, best loot and endgame focus is on large groups of players doing coordinated dances.

There are many other games out there with raiding endgames. I've played a bunch of them over the past decade. I'm done with it. Small group content and PvP are my interests, and I'll seek a game that caters to them.

Dragon Star arena

I think the keyword in the post by @Snit, was 'cater'. And if I get their meaning right, I agree.

I too am tired of games where all the focus (all the best rewards, all the new updates, all the major systems) are related to large group events. I wouldn't mind those events being added to the game, but I would prefer them to keep the 'best' processes at the lower levels. Or at least make them equal.

This of course upsets the raiders, who are willing to go through all that stress and hassle and have the time, and see the difficulty of what they do (not with the mobs, but in dealing with others) as something which assures them superior rewards, and makes them better than other players.

If the only cycle is going to go back to pushing prime content only out to raiders, I would otherwise not support anything larger than what we currently have. I would actually prefer there not be any large group raids in the game, than give up the priority we (small group players) have right now in ESO.

It's really hard to say where this game will be in a few years, but I have the feeling they will figure out a system that will be right and give something to every type of player. Not everyone will satisfied, but when does that ever happen?

You're right, it never does. I'm the type of player who hates gear grinds and games that focus entirely on the next gear set. I dislike games that have gear ratings, and hate the elitists that push GR as the only way to play. Course, I generally hate min-maxers on a moral level, going back to my DnD days, so it's not really their fault.

And my heart broke a little when I heard some of the proposals for the champion points, specifically dealing with seasonal gear sets, champion gear rating, etc. One of the many reasons I was so happy with ESO is because they didn't build a gear grind, which is undoubtedly the easiest way to leverage player attentions in the MMO world.

IF that 'best in slot' gear grind could be achieved in multiple ways (PvP, solo, two-man teams, four man teams, 12 man teams, etc) by way of a token or point system, then maybe. Then everyone is on equal footing, gear wise, and it's all in relation to how you want to play.

But that's a very big IF, and I don't think I've seen it done before in any MMO.

WhitePawPrints

I'm not sure. I think that...

I don't mind the Veteran Dungeons, or a difficult challenge. But if there are raid bosses that have require stupid rules then that is annoying, and a complete turn off for the casual player who wants to join in a raid now and then.

i.e. When fighting one of the bosses in WoW, it had minions and two of those were healers. My instinct was to CC one of the Healers while focusing the marked target designated by the Raid Leader. I took the Healer out of the fight for about two minutes by consistently CCing it but after we defeated the boss, there was a lot of flame on who was Crowd Controlling that healer.

I still don't understand what was wrong with it.

Veteran Dungeons know require a bit of knowledge on how to defeat a certain boss, but it is easily learned and is not inconsistent or illogical. Raids that take "Months" to master, I really don't see how that'd help the game other than provide grinders more grinding.

moxiesauce

Yes, I think progressive raiding would be good for the longevity of the game.

Snit wrote: »

There's a natural tension between small-group and raid play, if only because of loot. Games with raids rarely put best-in-slot gear anywhere else. ZOS has now moved in that direction as well. This is a big deal.

They didn't talk about it much but they have a "solution" for crafting still being very viable even with a treadmill, so who knows how this will really play out. We just don't seem to have enough information, and just like the Justice System/spell crafting people are freaking because they are over thinking it will hurt the game more than better it.

Phantax

Yes, I think progressive raiding would be good for the longevity of the game.

Falmer wrote: »

That's honestly kind of what I expected for the "endgame" content. Raids into various realms of oblivion, fighting off daedra hordes or encountering the various daedra lords themselves.

Pretty much sums up what I'd want to see as end-game content !

+1

Paske

I'm not sure. I think that...

Progressive raids - NO.

Because they swiftly become only source of quality gear. Also in order to play new raid you need to finish the last one and grind gear like mad ...

However raids as content, yes. I would like some sort of raid like instances of 10-15 players. But also an option for casuals to gear up and join raiding crowd. So that little blacksmiths son John can pick up a mace, gear up and challenge the new raid dungeon.

In games like WOW if you miss a tier for whatever reason - better lube up and beg for friends to gear you up so you can join them.

Content is allways good, exclusive content for VIP players is not.

Thechemicals

Like diablo rifts...

Robotukas

I'm not sure. I think that...

Tabbycat wrote: »

First, I'll start with the most common definition of progressive raiding: Large group content typically consisting of anywhere between 10 and 40 players that takes place in an instanced zone filled with a number of encounters that get progressively more difficult as you work your way through the instance. A number of "boss encounters" are required to be completed before being granted access to the final "boss encounter" which has certain systems in place to make the fight long and difficult. Usually Progressive raids take months to master although more skilled groups may be able to clear them sooner. Bosses tend to have "enrage timers" requiring groups to kill them within a set amount of time before they enrage and wipe out the entire party.

Personally, I like the idea of them but I've never really invested a whole lot of time and effort into them. So, I am more or less neutral on the subject.

As long if it doesn't take more than 1 hour I am happy. I can't sacrifice time of intensive gameplay if it takes more hours.

Ser Lobo

Yes, I think progressive raiding would be good for the longevity of the game.

WhitePawPrints wrote: »

I don't mind the Veteran Dungeons, or a difficult challenge. But if there are raid bosses that have require stupid rules then that is annoying, and a complete turn off for the casual player who wants to join in a raid now and then.

i.e. When fighting one of the bosses in WoW, it had minions and two of those were healers. My instinct was to CC one of the Healers while focusing the marked target designated by the Raid Leader. I took the Healer out of the fight for about two minutes by consistently CCing it but after we defeated the boss, there was a lot of flame on who was Crowd Controlling that healer.

I still don't understand what was wrong with it.

Veteran Dungeons know require a bit of knowledge on how to defeat a certain boss, but it is easily learned and is not inconsistent or illogical. Raids that take "Months" to master, I really don't see how that'd help the game other than provide grinders more grinding.

For casual or pick up groups, veteran dungeons can be difficult. That's 20 minutes to an hour or more of content, which is worthy for a casual group.

For organized, experienced groups, veteran dungeons are rather pointless. For some, we're talking 5-10 minutes of quick play and then we're done.

It would be nice to see an 'elite' setting which could really put the hurt on a bunch of veteran players, complete with achievements and special rewards for completing.


Raids, on the other hand, are really hard to make 'casual' friendly. You can be talking upwards of four hours or more. 20 minutes in a pick-up-group can have you pulling your hair out.

Maybe on the casual level, you can do it by 'chapters', with twelve players getting together and finishing a section before breaking down and reforming for the next section.

Kinsaven

I'm not sure. I think that...

I'm not much of a raider myself, I rarely do it in fact. I have no problem with raids being implemented for the people who like doing them, as long as it doesn't become the main focus of the game, as so often seems to be the case in other MMO's.

ESO has already got a lot of other things going for it, and I would rather that it not go down the same path as many other games out there, but that's just my personal view.

moxiesauce

Yes, I think progressive raiding would be good for the longevity of the game.

WhitePawPrints wrote: »

Veteran Dungeons now require a bit of knowledge on how to defeat a certain boss, but it is easily learned and is not inconsistent or illogical. Raids that take "Months" to master, I really don't see how that'd help the game other than provide grinders more grinding.

People like progression, I remember in WoW I would wake up at 6 in the morning, call up my guildies, grab some coffee and just raid kara till noon before we had work or w/e was happening. It was a weird raid time but funny to be close enough to people in your guild you could actually call them up at 6 in the morning to raid lol. Maybe it's just me, but progression creates a closeness to people in your guild. You all were able to accomplish something together that many other's can't.

moxiesauce

Yes, I think progressive raiding would be good for the longevity of the game.

Kinsaven wrote: »

I'm not much of a raider myself, I rarely do it in fact. I have no problem with raids being implemented for the people who like doing them, as long as it doesn't become the main focus of the game, as so often seems to be the case in other MMO's.

ESO has already got a lot of other things going for it, and I would rather that it not go down the same path as many other games out there, but that's just my personal view.

I really don't believe raiding will be the prime focus of endgame. They are constantly releasing new zones, solo/4mangroup content. They want to stay true to TES, but add elements you can only find in MMO's.

moxiesauce

Yes, I think progressive raiding would be good for the longevity of the game.

Paske wrote: »

Progressive raids - NO.

Because they swiftly become only source of quality gear. Also in order to play new raid you need to finish the last one and grind gear like mad ...

However raids as content, yes. I would like some sort of raid like instances of 10-15 players. But also an option for casuals to gear up and join raiding crowd. So that little blacksmiths son John can pick up a mace, gear up and challenge the new raid dungeon.

In games like WOW if you miss a tier for whatever reason - better lube up and beg for friends to gear you up so you can join them.

Content is allways good, exclusive content for VIP players is not.

I agree with you, Just don't think ESO treadmill will be anything like WoW, even with progression content.

WhitePawPrints

I'm not sure. I think that...

ruze84b14_ESO wrote: »

WhitePawPrints wrote: »

I don't mind the Veteran Dungeons, or a difficult challenge. But if there are raid bosses that have require stupid rules then that is annoying, and a complete turn off for the casual player who wants to join in a raid now and then.

i.e. When fighting one of the bosses in WoW, it had minions and two of those were healers. My instinct was to CC one of the Healers while focusing the marked target designated by the Raid Leader. I took the Healer out of the fight for about two minutes by consistently CCing it but after we defeated the boss, there was a lot of flame on who was Crowd Controlling that healer.

I still don't understand what was wrong with it.

Veteran Dungeons know require a bit of knowledge on how to defeat a certain boss, but it is easily learned and is not inconsistent or illogical. Raids that take "Months" to master, I really don't see how that'd help the game other than provide grinders more grinding.

For casual or pick up groups, veteran dungeons can be difficult. That's 20 minutes to an hour or more of content, which is worthy for a casual group.

For organized, experienced groups, veteran dungeons are rather pointless. For some, we're talking 5-10 minutes of quick play and then we're done.

It would be nice to see an 'elite' setting which could really put the hurt on a bunch of veteran players, complete with achievements and special rewards for completing.


Raids, on the other hand, are really hard to make 'casual' friendly. You can be talking upwards of four hours or more. 20 minutes in a pick-up-group can have you pulling your hair out.

Maybe on the casual level, you can do it by 'chapters', with twelve players getting together and finishing a section before breaking down and reforming for the next section.

I am probably more of a casual player. I don't care much about having the strongest character, just a character than I enjoy playing.

Veteran Dungeons are fun because I did them with friends but I see no point in going back to doing them again. I have only done two because I don't join PUG groups, but I'm still in no hurry to complete them.

For Raids, in PUG groups they're usually not too bad if the Raid Leader is not an elitists neckbeard and takes three seconds to explain what to do. But they're terrible if the Raid Leader believes he is god because he is the tank; or that if you don't know his neckbeard speech and that he is talking to you specifically at that instant then you are a (bleep bleep bleep bleep bleepin n3wb).

Non-PUG Groups are better, but they are still assorted groups. My guildmates usually don't gather for raids. One guild leader, she would take hours trying to go through a non veteran dungeon because of her poor leadership. (I left that guild very quickly.)

So I think that having challenging raids is a good idea, but not if it can breed those neckbeard elitists. Adding that third tier you suggested would be just fine in my book.

Ser Lobo

Yes, I think progressive raiding would be good for the longevity of the game.

moxiesauce wrote: »

WhitePawPrints wrote: »

Veteran Dungeons now require a bit of knowledge on how to defeat a certain boss, but it is easily learned and is not inconsistent or illogical. Raids that take "Months" to master, I really don't see how that'd help the game other than provide grinders more grinding.

People like progression, I remember in WoW I would wake up at 6 in the morning, call up my guildies, grab some coffee and just raid kara till noon before we had work or w/e was happening. It was a weird raid time but funny to be close enough to people in your guild you could actually call them up at 6 in the morning to raid lol. Maybe it's just me, but progression creates a closeness to people in your guild. You all were able to accomplish something together that many other's can't.

It can be nice, yes. And it can be too much.

I remember being called at 2 and 3am for gate duty in EvE Online. CTA's that had everyone standing ready. It's that same feeling, being invested into a game so far that you put aside nearly everything else.

I don't have the time or the life priorities for that anymore, though. And if you put the best gear or reward at the end of something that requires so much of your life, you cut out so many who simply don't have those priorities.

I'm fine with rewarding those players for achieving something I no longer have the want to achieve. But to reiterate mine and earlier posts, I'm not fine with making the focus of the development, and the best stat boosts and gear, only available to those who have that time and dedication.

There are hundreds and thousands of ways to reward a player. Another piece of gear is merely the easiest and simpliest, but also the one that creates the most division. Looking at PuppyGate here on the forums, I would also suggest not making PETS be the reward.

Ser Lobo

Yes, I think progressive raiding would be good for the longevity of the game.

WhitePawPrints wrote: »

So I think that having challenging raids is a good idea, but not if it can breed those neckbeard elitists. Adding that third tier you suggested would be just fine in my book.

Hell, we have those guys in veteran zones, and that was generally SOLO!

Elitists come in many forms, but the truth is that they are in every game type, and do a good job of ruining it for many. Hell, even roleplayers have elitists. That guy who thinks he is the master of all lore and tries to micromanage everyone elses chat, etc.

Opioid

Yes, I think progressive raiding would be good for the longevity of the game.

kieso wrote: »

Progressive raiding becomes a boring repetitive grindfest where you login like a job at a certain time and perform your needed task at a chance for a reward or for a token to give you said reward and its always time gated. If you want to do something repetitive without much chance or change then I suggest a job at an assembly line.

So... are you trying to say that the current "end-game" set of activities which includes two DPS zerg time trials, one VR12 dungeon and running the same PVP zone over and over is not a boring and repetitive grindfest?

I support some kind of tiered progression content. Make a normal mode which can be face-rolled by people who don't have the time, skill or desire to dedicate to organized raiding, then a hard mode of some kind for the people that do. Have some bosses that require actual team work and have complex mechanics and take time and effort to learn and defeat the encounters. Keep timed trial runs in if you want, but also have non-timed, more traditional raids so it stops groups from trying to zerg everything as quickly as possible.

Along with that, add more max-level dungeons, update the loot tables to contain more max level set pieces. Have dungeon bosses have a lower chance of dropping the same set pieces that drop in raids, or have them drop the same gear with slightly lower stats/make a "Heroic" version of the set pieces to drop only in the larger raids. Spreading the ability to get the same or similar gear around to multiple sources will help everyone eventually get the same gear, but those that dedicate themselves to organized raiding will get slightly better gear and get it faster. As it should be. You put in more effort, you get a greater reward.

Keep the PVP set bonuses on gear that only comes as a result of PVP. PVE set bonuses on the PVE gear. That way people on both sides of the coin can be satisfied with their gear progression.

To be perfectly honest, I'm just waiting to see what happens with the Champion system and if/when they start to develop some kind of end-game progression. I'm pretty much bored of the game right now as I've run out of things to do. There's only so many times you can run the same two trials, one dungeon and one PVP instance before it gets boring. Once you've finished all the VR zones and Craglorn, there's really nothing else to do.

WhitePawPrints

I'm not sure. I think that...

ruze84b14_ESO wrote: »

WhitePawPrints wrote: »

So I think that having challenging raids is a good idea, but not if it can breed those neckbeard elitists. Adding that third tier you suggested would be just fine in my book.

Hell, we have those guys in veteran zones, and that was generally SOLO!

Elitists come in many forms, but the truth is that they are in every game type, and do a good job of ruining it for many. Hell, even roleplayers have elitists. That guy who thinks he is the master of all lore and tries to micromanage everyone elses chat, etc.

That is very true. Lately they have been showing up more often with the "dks only", "no stam user", "no temps or nbs allowed"messages that are seen on the general zone chat. I typically avoid elitists in every form. In my experience, there are just some game designs that promote it more than others. Here's hoping for balance to minimize it.

Rescorla_ESO

Yes, I think progressive raiding would be good for the longevity of the game.

I really enjoy the team building aspect of PVE raiding, working together with guildmates to figure out how to defeat a tough boss mob, and acquiring loot upgrades for guildmates when we finally do defeat the boss. TESO definitely needs more endgame PVE raiding content for the players who enjoy doing that.

TESO also needs progressively harder solo content. If a new solo zone is added to the game, I hope ZOS makes it more difficult than the current VR difficulty but not as hard as the original VR difficulty.

moxiesauce

Yes, I think progressive raiding would be good for the longevity of the game.

Opioid wrote: »

kieso wrote: »

To be perfectly honest, I'm just waiting to see what happens with the Champion system and if/when they start to develop some kind of end-game progression. I'm pretty much bored of the game right now as I've run out of things to do. There's only so many times you can run the same two trials, one dungeon and one PVP instance before it gets boring. Once you've finished all the VR zones and Craglorn, there's really nothing else to do.

Very true, and update 3 is only going to give us customization, new achievements, a revamp to our gear, and a reduction in PvP campaigns. I can see about a week of decent play before I get bored again. But I might just PvP like crazy and actually try for emperor. Hmm I forgot about hardmodes.. maybe this update will tire me over till update 4.. who knows?

demonlkojipub19_ESO

I'm not sure. I think that...

I picked this because I don't really care, but I think they already plan to do this with their 'seasons' deal. Progressively get better gear. They just didn't say how you would get the gear iirc...

Snit

No, I don't believe this type of content has a place in the Elder Scrolls Universe.

Another vote for -- raids are fine, but not if they become the focus of content development or the only way to get best-in-slot gear. Crafting and small-group play must remain viable.

And 'viable' doesn't mean that the best gear drops only in raids, but a crafter can then improve it.

Muletide

I'm not sure. I think that...

I enjoy raiding, but not the 5+ hour nightly raids of clearing tons of trash to get to anti-climactic bosses and come out with no loot at the end of the night because all of Mother's basement dwellers own the top DKP spots. THAT is the reason I put WOW on the shelf. (Sorry, but face it: WOW is the billion dollar MMO poster child for comparison)

Age of Conan's T1 raids come to mind when I think of enjoyable raids in regards to size, time of completion, and rewards for more casual players.

Adding new crafted set tables is an easy way to keep crafted gear on par with new raid loot. (Heck, with the addition of Spell Crafting, why not personalized Set Crafting? The craftsman has a pool of set bonuses to piece together when making items.)

No more Time Trials: It has already proven to create a bottle neck that only makes a couple builds favorable. Unless the polar opposite is introduced - Survival Trials, where fast DPS is not the key to winning, but having builds that can survive certain damage spikes, damage types, or DPS through certain "negated magic" phases (ie: melee, med/heavy armor love).

Progression: A group of raids that required attunements or completion achievements in order to move on to the next raid always provided a ladder/goal to work towards.

My main concern for raid content: Do not make the best items/content only available to the Elite 1% of people with no lives outside of ESO.

Rune_Relic

No, I don't believe this type of content has a place in the Elder Scrolls Universe.

drogon1 wrote: »

Rune_Relic wrote: »

Scripted dungeons are predictable and hence repeatable. Many people like trying to get better and better to use it as training. I think training areas should be used for training.

For me, I prefer the idea of building environments and populating those areas with the creatures that belong there that behave in a random way. This of course requires a reason to go to that place and encounter those creatures of varying difficulty along the way as you travel through their natural habitat. This could be to gain possession of an item or location or kill/rescue someone.

In a nut shell ..scripted repeatable content isn't really the kind of problem I want to face. I prefer the challenge of the unknown and having to adapt or die. It requires caution, skill and badassery IMO rather than the treadmill mentality.

Zenimax doesn't have to worry about specific dungeons and such then. They can be open world dead ends that you really, really want to avoid without an exceptional reason to go there.

Everything in a vid game is scripted, except PvP. The problem with new open zones is that they are generally accessible to everyone, and typically soloable and faceroll - and this will not be enough to keep hardcore PvE'ers interested. Hardcore PvE'ers need hardcore PvE: difficult, group-based instanced content.

By scripted I mean same enemies, same location, same difficulty...repeat rinse repeat dungeon run again and again to do it faster this time and break some record.

If I am a level 20 player and see an area with lots of level 30 enemies and a few level 100s.....I'm not going in there alone. But it requires I can see the level of the enemy and the enemy attack/defense ability is actually comparable to their level.

Only people who would enter that location is the brave, the stupid and the skilled. Noobs would get instakilled and rightly so...they new what they were entering. Groups would enter in appropriate numbers and not necessarily all the same level.

kitsinni

Yes, I think progressive raiding would be good for the longevity of the game.

I see people saying that raiding is boring, aside from PvP what is there to do at V12 right now that isn't boring?

Xeres14

Yes, I think progressive raiding would be good for the longevity of the game.

For me, there's another thing too about this. I'm the type of player who needs a goal to aim for. End game raiding accomplishes this for me. I cannot tell you how many games I've dropped because there was very little to accomplish once you reach max level. Even the Veteran system here in ESO doesn't really cut it.

I really need a system that allows me to improve my character in order to accomplish the next goal put in front of me (new tier of raiding). And this needs to be significant.

Otherwise, at least for me, ESO will go the way of SWTOR, Champions Online, City of Heroes - all games I really enjoyed leveling but no end game meant I dropped them and went back to WoW.

Zorrashi

No, I don't believe this type of content has a place in the Elder Scrolls Universe.

Though the idea for large raids would be beneficial to those type of players, and is a fine idea by itself, I'm only afraid of it becoming of a thing. By which, I mean that raid content becomes such a significant part of end-game that people feel that its the only 'legitimate' content.

Part of the reason people hated the original VR zones is because they felt forced to join groups to truly enjoy the content. The raids you describe that require at least 10 players--well, its a kick in the shin to casuals if becomes too prominent in the game.

On a personal note, I think such raids only belong in games like WoW (yes, I said it). I mean, that game seems catered to that type of player. The one and only reason I came to ESO is because I was under the impression that it wouldn't be like that; I didn't want a game where any significant achievement had to be in a large raid group.

Zorrashi

No, I don't believe this type of content has a place in the Elder Scrolls Universe.

Laura wrote: »

Nox_Aeterna wrote: »

Personally i would not like that.

Even if ESO is also a themepark MMO , progressive raiding have their place on games like WoW.

I would prefer if ESO took another road, even more because usually this would brings the need for raiding gear , which is usually the best in the game , an issue in ESO where the best gear should come from crafting.

why should the best gear come from crafting? its dumb and annoying. It would be one thing if crafting was actually difficult or materials were hard to come by but as it is you get to max level and BAM your BIS in two minutes.

Having crafting be best in slot while simultaneously making crafting easier than in any other game was literally the dumbest idea I have ever seen.

It not dumb, and its not annoying. A significant part of the player base actually considers crafting one the big points in ESO. Crafters in general never felt significant in many other games because their gear was insignificant compared to drops.
Why cater to only one type of player? You have your benefits, and they have theirs. You have awesome abilities and survivability (likely gaining a lot of coin through difficult quests) and they can craft their gear by hunting down materials as much as their skill can allow.

R1ckyDaMan

I didnt vote, but I can give you an idea what to do with you're enrage timer....

kitsinni

Yes, I think progressive raiding would be good for the longevity of the game.

Zorrashi wrote: »

Laura wrote: »

Nox_Aeterna wrote: »

Personally i would not like that.

Even if ESO is also a themepark MMO , progressive raiding have their place on games like WoW.

I would prefer if ESO took another road, even more because usually this would brings the need for raiding gear , which is usually the best in the game , an issue in ESO where the best gear should come from crafting.

why should the best gear come from crafting? its dumb and annoying. It would be one thing if crafting was actually difficult or materials were hard to come by but as it is you get to max level and BAM your BIS in two minutes.

Having crafting be best in slot while simultaneously making crafting easier than in any other game was literally the dumbest idea I have ever seen.

It not dumb, and its not annoying. A significant part of the player base actually considers crafting one the big points in ESO. Crafters in general never felt significant in many other games because their gear was insignificant compared to drops.
Why cater to only one type of player? You have your benefits, and they have theirs. You have awesome abilities and survivability (likely gaining a lot of coin through difficult quests) and they can craft their gear by hunting down materials as much as their skill can allow.

That is what you are asking for exactly to cater to only one type of player and for the best gear to only be from crafting ant he players who want to raid for something can take a hike. There are ways to have progressive raiding with drops and still have crafting as important if not more.

I don't understand all of this "it isn't for me so no one should have it" attitude .. now I see why the game is struggling so bad.

Tankqull

no problem with (difficult) raids aslong as it is not connected to a geargrind.
as that is the stupidest dumpshid ever invented by mmos.