Do You Want Progressive Raiding in ESO?

kieso

No, I don't believe this type of content has a place in the Elder Scrolls Universe.

kitsinni wrote: »

Zorrashi wrote: »

Laura wrote: »

Nox_Aeterna wrote: »

Personally i would not like that.

Even if ESO is also a themepark MMO , progressive raiding have their place on games like WoW.

I would prefer if ESO took another road, even more because usually this would brings the need for raiding gear , which is usually the best in the game , an issue in ESO where the best gear should come from crafting.

why should the best gear come from crafting? its dumb and annoying. It would be one thing if crafting was actually difficult or materials were hard to come by but as it is you get to max level and BAM your BIS in two minutes.

Having crafting be best in slot while simultaneously making crafting easier than in any other game was literally the dumbest idea I have ever seen.

It not dumb, and its not annoying. A significant part of the player base actually considers crafting one the big points in ESO. Crafters in general never felt significant in many other games because their gear was insignificant compared to drops.
Why cater to only one type of player? You have your benefits, and they have theirs. You have awesome abilities and survivability (likely gaining a lot of coin through difficult quests) and they can craft their gear by hunting down materials as much as their skill can allow.

That is what you are asking for exactly to cater to only one type of player and for the best gear to only be from crafting ant he players who want to raid for something can take a hike. There are ways to have progressive raiding with drops and still have crafting as important if not more.

I don't understand all of this "it isn't for me so no one should have it" attitude .. now I see why the game is struggling so bad.

People are just wary because in MMO's with raiding only raiding has provided the best gear so only those players get to experience the entirety of the game weather it pve, pvp or what have you dominating each subset since you have that BiS gear.

Then of course you get that PVE gear creep since the forumla usually goes BiS gear > raid > BiS gear > raid and so on which creates insanely powerful gear and then makes developers have to create different gear for PVP which in turn segregates the community.

Zorrashi

No, I don't believe this type of content has a place in the Elder Scrolls Universe.

kitsinni wrote: »

Zorrashi wrote: »

Laura wrote: »

Nox_Aeterna wrote: »

Personally i would not like that.

Even if ESO is also a themepark MMO , progressive raiding have their place on games like WoW.

I would prefer if ESO took another road, even more because usually this would brings the need for raiding gear , which is usually the best in the game , an issue in ESO where the best gear should come from crafting.

why should the best gear come from crafting? its dumb and annoying. It would be one thing if crafting was actually difficult or materials were hard to come by but as it is you get to max level and BAM your BIS in two minutes.

Having crafting be best in slot while simultaneously making crafting easier than in any other game was literally the dumbest idea I have ever seen.

It not dumb, and its not annoying. A significant part of the player base actually considers crafting one the big points in ESO. Crafters in general never felt significant in many other games because their gear was insignificant compared to drops.
Why cater to only one type of player? You have your benefits, and they have theirs. You have awesome abilities and survivability (likely gaining a lot of coin through difficult quests) and they can craft their gear by hunting down materials as much as their skill can allow.

That is what you are asking for exactly to cater to only one type of player and for the best gear to only be from crafting ant he players who want to raid for something can take a hike. There are ways to have progressive raiding with drops and still have crafting as important if not more.

I don't understand all of this "it isn't for me so no one should have it" attitude .. now I see why the game is struggling so bad.

I merely don't want crafters to be put at a disadvantage compared to raiders. Go ahead and put weapons equal to crafted items with unique enchants for the reward for all I care. As I said before, raids by themselves are fine. Its just when it becomes the only viable to get top tier gear that it starts becoming a problem. Well, that, and becoming such a major part of the content people feel forced into it.

In all honesty though, I suppose I jumped the gun at seeing Laura's post; seeing the words "dumb" and "annoying" on the subject of crafters irritated me a bit. Or a lot. Now that I read my post again I can totally envision someone reading it and getting an aggressive tone out of it.

kitsinni

Yes, I think progressive raiding would be good for the longevity of the game.

kieso wrote: »

kitsinni wrote: »

Zorrashi wrote: »

Laura wrote: »

Nox_Aeterna wrote: »

Personally i would not like that.

Even if ESO is also a themepark MMO , progressive raiding have their place on games like WoW.

I would prefer if ESO took another road, even more because usually this would brings the need for raiding gear , which is usually the best in the game , an issue in ESO where the best gear should come from crafting.

why should the best gear come from crafting? its dumb and annoying. It would be one thing if crafting was actually difficult or materials were hard to come by but as it is you get to max level and BAM your BIS in two minutes.

Having crafting be best in slot while simultaneously making crafting easier than in any other game was literally the dumbest idea I have ever seen.

It not dumb, and its not annoying. A significant part of the player base actually considers crafting one the big points in ESO. Crafters in general never felt significant in many other games because their gear was insignificant compared to drops.
Why cater to only one type of player? You have your benefits, and they have theirs. You have awesome abilities and survivability (likely gaining a lot of coin through difficult quests) and they can craft their gear by hunting down materials as much as their skill can allow.

That is what you are asking for exactly to cater to only one type of player and for the best gear to only be from crafting ant he players who want to raid for something can take a hike. There are ways to have progressive raiding with drops and still have crafting as important if not more.

I don't understand all of this "it isn't for me so no one should have it" attitude .. now I see why the game is struggling so bad.

People are just wary because in MMO's with raiding only raiding has provided the best gear so only those players get to experience the entirety of the game weather it pve, pvp or what have you dominating each subset since you have that BiS gear.

Then of course you get that PVE gear creep since the forumla usually goes BiS gear > raid > BiS gear > raid and so on which creates insanely powerful gear and then makes developers have to create different gear for PVP which in turn segregates the community.

Then honestly I don't see how this game makes it a year without going f2p. At V12 there is currently absolutely nothing to do except to to cyrodil and chase the same keeps over and over and over and over. Crafting takes no more effort than click a button wait X amount of day, click another button wait X amount of days then all traits learned. There are not even recipes to chase after they are all there just there for everyone. What exactly is going to keep this game going if we can't have gear to chase after?

My suggestion would be a basic stat cap in PvP before the "champion point passives" are added in. Then have PvP sets with bonuses that are specific to PvP. If you want to wear your PvE gear then great.

Have sets that need both crafted gear and dropped gear to complete that way the raiders have something to chase after and the crafters are also still in business. Make it so you can sell the gear that way the crafters and non-raiders can buy the pieces they raid for and the raiders can buy the pieces that are crafted.

I honestly just can't see the game lasting unless they put in something to try to get. Right now everything is so easy to get and crafting is easier than any other game.

Arsenic_Touch

Yes, I think progressive raiding would be good for the longevity of the game.

Yes. All mmos need a carrot, otherwise they don't last. People may whine and stamp their feet about it but raiding keeps games going. What is happening to this game without it? it's sputtering and flickering out.

You can have progressive raiding without a serious gear creep. Given the very minor differences between rarities I don't see them having much trouble in that area.

They need to do something soon.

Rune_Relic

No, I don't believe this type of content has a place in the Elder Scrolls Universe.

Zorrashi wrote: »

I didn't want a game where any significant achievement had to be in a large raid group.

To be fair ZOS are talking about scaling such areas now. So they scale to solo individual or the leader of the group and how many in that group. That's with instanced stuff anyway.

I also agree with the large group lockout where solo players cant get the same content.

IMHO though, if you come across a level 150 daedra in open world....you might want to walk the other way. If they are in a dead end area anyway, you have no reason to enter other than the prize at the end. The question then is what should such a prize be that isn't "make me more powerful than everyone else in pvp".

The only reason people could possibly want better gear is to be more OP than everyone else. This doesn't rub. Any idea of game balance goes out the window with mega armour and such. Making an unbalanced game even more unbalanced.

Give 'em a medal, trophy, prestige ....whatever. Not the stats boost though.

Nox_Aeterna

No, I don't believe this type of content has a place in the Elder Scrolls Universe.

moxiesauce wrote: »

Nox_Aeterna wrote: »

Laura wrote: »

Nox_Aeterna wrote: »

Personally i would not like that.

Even if ESO is also a themepark MMO , progressive raiding have their place on games like WoW.

I would prefer if ESO took another road, even more because usually this would brings the need for raiding gear , which is usually the best in the game , an issue in ESO where the best gear should come from crafting.

why should the best gear come from crafting? its dumb and annoying. It would be one thing if crafting was actually difficult or materials were hard to come by but as it is you get to max level and BAM your BIS in two minutes.

Having crafting be best in slot while simultaneously making crafting easier than in any other game was literally the dumbest idea I have ever seen.

One way or the other , is one of the premises of the game , that make it different to the other many games of this genre out right now.

To many this matter quite a lot , me included and i expect zen to keep their word.

Best gear comes from crafting.

I'm sure best gear will come from other means, but to really make it the best gear you will have to upgrade it through crafting. Maybe they will even add a type of scaling system with crafting so you can scale up lower level gear for appropriate mats.

I hope not , would be another promise they break.

At most they could make the gear be equivalent , so you could craft OR you could drop it in a dungeon.

But making the best gear be drop only would be an issue.

kieso

No, I don't believe this type of content has a place in the Elder Scrolls Universe.

kitsinni wrote: »

kieso wrote: »

kitsinni wrote: »

Zorrashi wrote: »

Laura wrote: »

Nox_Aeterna wrote: »

Personally i would not like that.

Even if ESO is also a themepark MMO , progressive raiding have their place on games like WoW.

I would prefer if ESO took another road, even more because usually this would brings the need for raiding gear , which is usually the best in the game , an issue in ESO where the best gear should come from crafting.

why should the best gear come from crafting? its dumb and annoying. It would be one thing if crafting was actually difficult or materials were hard to come by but as it is you get to max level and BAM your BIS in two minutes.

Having crafting be best in slot while simultaneously making crafting easier than in any other game was literally the dumbest idea I have ever seen.

It not dumb, and its not annoying. A significant part of the player base actually considers crafting one the big points in ESO. Crafters in general never felt significant in many other games because their gear was insignificant compared to drops.
Why cater to only one type of player? You have your benefits, and they have theirs. You have awesome abilities and survivability (likely gaining a lot of coin through difficult quests) and they can craft their gear by hunting down materials as much as their skill can allow.

That is what you are asking for exactly to cater to only one type of player and for the best gear to only be from crafting ant he players who want to raid for something can take a hike. There are ways to have progressive raiding with drops and still have crafting as important if not more.

I don't understand all of this "it isn't for me so no one should have it" attitude .. now I see why the game is struggling so bad.

People are just wary because in MMO's with raiding only raiding has provided the best gear so only those players get to experience the entirety of the game weather it pve, pvp or what have you dominating each subset since you have that BiS gear.

Then of course you get that PVE gear creep since the forumla usually goes BiS gear > raid > BiS gear > raid and so on which creates insanely powerful gear and then makes developers have to create different gear for PVP which in turn segregates the community.

Then honestly I don't see how this game makes it a year without going f2p. At V12 there is currently absolutely nothing to do except to to cyrodil and chase the same keeps over and over and over and over. Crafting takes no more effort than click a button wait X amount of day, click another button wait X amount of days then all traits learned. There are not even recipes to chase after they are all there just there for everyone. What exactly is going to keep this game going if we can't have gear to chase after?

My suggestion would be a basic stat cap in PvP before the "champion point passives" are added in. Then have PvP sets with bonuses that are specific to PvP. If you want to wear your PvE gear then great.

Have sets that need both crafted gear and dropped gear to complete that way the raiders have something to chase after and the crafters are also still in business. Make it so you can sell the gear that way the crafters and non-raiders can buy the pieces they raid for and the raiders can buy the pieces that are crafted.

I honestly just can't see the game lasting unless they put in something to try to get. Right now everything is so easy to get and crafting is easier than any other game.

Going to have to disagree with

1) I've played other MMO's with much simpler crafting mechanics; in GW2 you can max out a craft in a couple of hours.

2) The item chase shouldn't be the focus to keep subs; you can create engaging fun content without any sort of item chase/gear creep. Item chases should be a secondary reward for fun content and should not be required to enjoy/partake in said content.

3) PVP only set gear is a poor design choice that creates unneeded barriers of entry to gamers who want a chance to play other aspects of an MMO.

EQBallzz

Yes, I think progressive raiding would be good for the longevity of the game.

Options and choices are good. The more options there are the better it is for the game's longevity and health. Trials, Cyrodiil, 4 man dungeons, 4 man trials, 12 man trials so why not 12 man dungeons? So long as they are careful to keep itemization parity between like activities so there isn't some balance issues introduced it should be fine.

I don't get why people would be against this. If you don't want to raid you don't have to which is the point of having options. Some may only want to PvP while others prefer trials and dungeons and still others may want a little of everything. So long as they don't make any one activity a requirement because it has a clear progression advantage over other options..why not?

Mr.Turtlesworth

Yes, I think progressive raiding would be good for the longevity of the game.

This seems like a perfect game to have it in.

kieso

No, I don't believe this type of content has a place in the Elder Scrolls Universe.

EQBallzz wrote: »

Options and choices are good. The more options there are the better it is for the game's longevity and health. Trials, Cyrodiil, 4 man dungeons, 4 man trials, 12 man trials so why not 12 man dungeons? So long as they are careful to keep itemization parity between like activities so there isn't some balance issues introduced it should be fine.

I don't get why people would be against this. If you don't want to raid you don't have to which is the point of having options. Some may only want to PvP while others prefer trials and dungeons and still others may want a little of everything. So long as they don't make any one activity a requirement because it has a clear progression advantage over other options..why not?

I think all no voters would be fine with it if they kept itemization equal between all activities as you suggested.

kitsinni

Yes, I think progressive raiding would be good for the longevity of the game.

kieso wrote: »

kitsinni wrote: »

kieso wrote: »

kitsinni wrote: »

Zorrashi wrote: »

Laura wrote: »

Nox_Aeterna wrote: »

Personally i would not like that.

Even if ESO is also a themepark MMO , progressive raiding have their place on games like WoW.

I would prefer if ESO took another road, even more because usually this would brings the need for raiding gear , which is usually the best in the game , an issue in ESO where the best gear should come from crafting.

why should the best gear come from crafting? its dumb and annoying. It would be one thing if crafting was actually difficult or materials were hard to come by but as it is you get to max level and BAM your BIS in two minutes.

Having crafting be best in slot while simultaneously making crafting easier than in any other game was literally the dumbest idea I have ever seen.

It not dumb, and its not annoying. A significant part of the player base actually considers crafting one the big points in ESO. Crafters in general never felt significant in many other games because their gear was insignificant compared to drops.
Why cater to only one type of player? You have your benefits, and they have theirs. You have awesome abilities and survivability (likely gaining a lot of coin through difficult quests) and they can craft their gear by hunting down materials as much as their skill can allow.

That is what you are asking for exactly to cater to only one type of player and for the best gear to only be from crafting ant he players who want to raid for something can take a hike. There are ways to have progressive raiding with drops and still have crafting as important if not more.

I don't understand all of this "it isn't for me so no one should have it" attitude .. now I see why the game is struggling so bad.

People are just wary because in MMO's with raiding only raiding has provided the best gear so only those players get to experience the entirety of the game weather it pve, pvp or what have you dominating each subset since you have that BiS gear.

Then of course you get that PVE gear creep since the forumla usually goes BiS gear > raid > BiS gear > raid and so on which creates insanely powerful gear and then makes developers have to create different gear for PVP which in turn segregates the community.

Then honestly I don't see how this game makes it a year without going f2p. At V12 there is currently absolutely nothing to do except to to cyrodil and chase the same keeps over and over and over and over. Crafting takes no more effort than click a button wait X amount of day, click another button wait X amount of days then all traits learned. There are not even recipes to chase after they are all there just there for everyone. What exactly is going to keep this game going if we can't have gear to chase after?

My suggestion would be a basic stat cap in PvP before the "champion point passives" are added in. Then have PvP sets with bonuses that are specific to PvP. If you want to wear your PvE gear then great.

Have sets that need both crafted gear and dropped gear to complete that way the raiders have something to chase after and the crafters are also still in business. Make it so you can sell the gear that way the crafters and non-raiders can buy the pieces they raid for and the raiders can buy the pieces that are crafted.

I honestly just can't see the game lasting unless they put in something to try to get. Right now everything is so easy to get and crafting is easier than any other game.

Going to have to disagree with

1) I've played other MMO's with much simpler crafting mechanics; in GW2 you can max out a craft in a couple of hours.

2) The item chase shouldn't be the focus to keep subs; you can create engaging fun content without any sort of item chase/gear creep. Item chases should be a secondary reward for fun content and should not be required to enjoy/partake in said content.

3) PVP only set gear is a poor design choice that creates unneeded barriers of entry to gamers who want a chance to play other aspects of an MMO.

1) I didn't play GW2 all that long but was crafting the best gear in the game in that game? I honestly don't know the game bored the crap out of me. All I know is I have had Provisioning to 50 before I hit the teens, I have blacksmithing, clothing and woodworking all 50 without ever crafting a single item .. just breaking them down and all I have to do to make the best sets is walk to a station after learning the traits which at most takes searching a guild store for the trait or maybe two minutes of asking to buy that trait in chat then waiting.

2) Ok great what games have done this? Every game that I know of that has stayed around took people working towards stuff to get them to stick around. What would make people stick around without any potential reward for doing it?

3) No one said PvP only sets, I said sets with bonuses that help in PvP like they already have in the game. There is no unneeded barrier, if you want to focus on PvP you can work towards that PvP set for a special benefit to PvP or you can do it in your regular gear. Like current sets that allow for added damage to other players or reduced damage from other players. They add a bonus specific to PvP and they have not broke the game or stopped people without those sets from PvPing.

EQBallzz

Yes, I think progressive raiding would be good for the longevity of the game.

kieso wrote: »

EQBallzz wrote: »

Options and choices are good. The more options there are the better it is for the game's longevity and health. Trials, Cyrodiil, 4 man dungeons, 4 man trials, 12 man trials so why not 12 man dungeons? So long as they are careful to keep itemization parity between like activities so there isn't some balance issues introduced it should be fine.

I don't get why people would be against this. If you don't want to raid you don't have to which is the point of having options. Some may only want to PvP while others prefer trials and dungeons and still others may want a little of everything. So long as they don't make any one activity a requirement because it has a clear progression advantage over other options..why not?

I think all no voters would be fine with it if they kept itemization equal between all activities as you suggested.

Yeah, I could see if they made raid gear superior to PvP gear and people were "forced" to raid to get the best gear that would not be good but the easy answer to that problem is..don't do that.

The way I see it..12 man raid gear would be on par with 12 man trial gear which should be on par with PvP gear. They don't have to be identical but so long as they are relatively close it should be fine. People will probably still complain but that's unavoidable.

Crafted gear should be slightly worse than top end raiding/pvp gear but not too far behind. It's silly to have easily crafted gear on par with raid/pvp gear that requires much more work to acquire. 4 man trials/dungeons should be on par with crafted perhaps but with different set bonuses and aesthetics.

Krinaman

No, I don't believe this type of content has a place in the Elder Scrolls Universe.

While I agree the game needs more end game content I don't agree that the only solution is progressive raids with it being the only way to obtain BiS gear.

Give solo players the ability to get the gear, give small group players the ability, give crafters the ability. Make all of the methods require a time sink aka "grind". End game solved.

Nox_Aeterna

No, I don't believe this type of content has a place in the Elder Scrolls Universe.

EQBallzz wrote: »

kieso wrote: »

EQBallzz wrote: »

Options and choices are good. The more options there are the better it is for the game's longevity and health. Trials, Cyrodiil, 4 man dungeons, 4 man trials, 12 man trials so why not 12 man dungeons? So long as they are careful to keep itemization parity between like activities so there isn't some balance issues introduced it should be fine.

I don't get why people would be against this. If you don't want to raid you don't have to which is the point of having options. Some may only want to PvP while others prefer trials and dungeons and still others may want a little of everything. So long as they don't make any one activity a requirement because it has a clear progression advantage over other options..why not?

I think all no voters would be fine with it if they kept itemization equal between all activities as you suggested.

Yeah, I could see if they made raid gear superior to PvP gear and people were "forced" to raid to get the best gear that would not be good but the easy answer to that problem is..don't do that.

The way I see it..12 man raid gear would be on par with 12 man trial gear which should be on par with PvP gear. They don't have to be identical but so long as they are relatively close it should be fine. People will probably still complain but that's unavoidable.

Crafted gear should be slightly worse than top end raiding/pvp gear but not too far behind. It's silly to have easily crafted gear on par with raid/pvp gear that requires much more work to acquire. 4 man trials/dungeons should be on par with crafted perhaps but with different set bonuses and aesthetics.

To me this is irrelevant , it is said on videos before this game was even out , the best gear would come from crafting.

To change this now would be making another of their promises a lie.

So yeah , if zen is capable ( i have my doubts they are) of adding equal gear on drops AND on crafting , then it is all fine.

But making it drop only would be an issue.

kitsinni

Yes, I think progressive raiding would be good for the longevity of the game.

Krinaman wrote: »

While I agree the game needs more end game content I don't agree that the only solution is progressive raids with it being the only way to obtain BiS gear.

Give solo players the ability to get the gear, give small group players the ability, give crafters the ability. Make all of the methods require a time sink aka "grind". End game solved.

If anyone can just spend thirty second to travel to a crafting station and make all the best gear in the game what exactly does that solve as far as end game goes? You just took what would keep people occupied for months and took it down to a couple minutes. I think that would be end of game, not end game.

Also say you got all your end game BIS gear two minutes after the patch comes out what exactly do you do with it after crafting it just stand there in town hoping someone asks you what it is? Why do you even need the upgraded gear if not to take on harder and harder stuff?

kitsinni

Yes, I think progressive raiding would be good for the longevity of the game.

Nox_Aeterna wrote: »

EQBallzz wrote: »

kieso wrote: »

EQBallzz wrote: »

Options and choices are good. The more options there are the better it is for the game's longevity and health. Trials, Cyrodiil, 4 man dungeons, 4 man trials, 12 man trials so why not 12 man dungeons? So long as they are careful to keep itemization parity between like activities so there isn't some balance issues introduced it should be fine.

I don't get why people would be against this. If you don't want to raid you don't have to which is the point of having options. Some may only want to PvP while others prefer trials and dungeons and still others may want a little of everything. So long as they don't make any one activity a requirement because it has a clear progression advantage over other options..why not?

I think all no voters would be fine with it if they kept itemization equal between all activities as you suggested.

Yeah, I could see if they made raid gear superior to PvP gear and people were "forced" to raid to get the best gear that would not be good but the easy answer to that problem is..don't do that.

The way I see it..12 man raid gear would be on par with 12 man trial gear which should be on par with PvP gear. They don't have to be identical but so long as they are relatively close it should be fine. People will probably still complain but that's unavoidable.

Crafted gear should be slightly worse than top end raiding/pvp gear but not too far behind. It's silly to have easily crafted gear on par with raid/pvp gear that requires much more work to acquire. 4 man trials/dungeons should be on par with crafted perhaps but with different set bonuses and aesthetics.

To me this is irrelevant , it is said on videos before this game was even out , the best gear would come from crafting.

To change this now would be making another of their promises a lie.

So yeah , if zen is capable ( i have my doubts they are) of adding equal gear on drops AND on crafting , then it is all fine.

But making it drop only would be an issue.

Technically if the best gear drops as blue in a raid and you "craft" it to gold the best gear just came from crafting.

Nox_Aeterna

No, I don't believe this type of content has a place in the Elder Scrolls Universe.

kitsinni wrote: »

Nox_Aeterna wrote: »

EQBallzz wrote: »

kieso wrote: »

EQBallzz wrote: »

Options and choices are good. The more options there are the better it is for the game's longevity and health. Trials, Cyrodiil, 4 man dungeons, 4 man trials, 12 man trials so why not 12 man dungeons? So long as they are careful to keep itemization parity between like activities so there isn't some balance issues introduced it should be fine.

I don't get why people would be against this. If you don't want to raid you don't have to which is the point of having options. Some may only want to PvP while others prefer trials and dungeons and still others may want a little of everything. So long as they don't make any one activity a requirement because it has a clear progression advantage over other options..why not?

I think all no voters would be fine with it if they kept itemization equal between all activities as you suggested.

Yeah, I could see if they made raid gear superior to PvP gear and people were "forced" to raid to get the best gear that would not be good but the easy answer to that problem is..don't do that.

The way I see it..12 man raid gear would be on par with 12 man trial gear which should be on par with PvP gear. They don't have to be identical but so long as they are relatively close it should be fine. People will probably still complain but that's unavoidable.

Crafted gear should be slightly worse than top end raiding/pvp gear but not too far behind. It's silly to have easily crafted gear on par with raid/pvp gear that requires much more work to acquire. 4 man trials/dungeons should be on par with crafted perhaps but with different set bonuses and aesthetics.

To me this is irrelevant , it is said on videos before this game was even out , the best gear would come from crafting.

To change this now would be making another of their promises a lie.

So yeah , if zen is capable ( i have my doubts they are) of adding equal gear on drops AND on crafting , then it is all fine.

But making it drop only would be an issue.

Technically if the best gear drops as blue in a raid and you "craft" it to gold the best gear just came from crafting.

Sorry but nope , the best gear came from drops , you upgraded it to become even better using crafting.

kitsinni

Yes, I think progressive raiding would be good for the longevity of the game.

Nox_Aeterna wrote: »

kitsinni wrote: »

Nox_Aeterna wrote: »

EQBallzz wrote: »

kieso wrote: »

EQBallzz wrote: »

Options and choices are good. The more options there are the better it is for the game's longevity and health. Trials, Cyrodiil, 4 man dungeons, 4 man trials, 12 man trials so why not 12 man dungeons? So long as they are careful to keep itemization parity between like activities so there isn't some balance issues introduced it should be fine.

I don't get why people would be against this. If you don't want to raid you don't have to which is the point of having options. Some may only want to PvP while others prefer trials and dungeons and still others may want a little of everything. So long as they don't make any one activity a requirement because it has a clear progression advantage over other options..why not?

I think all no voters would be fine with it if they kept itemization equal between all activities as you suggested.

Yeah, I could see if they made raid gear superior to PvP gear and people were "forced" to raid to get the best gear that would not be good but the easy answer to that problem is..don't do that.

The way I see it..12 man raid gear would be on par with 12 man trial gear which should be on par with PvP gear. They don't have to be identical but so long as they are relatively close it should be fine. People will probably still complain but that's unavoidable.

Crafted gear should be slightly worse than top end raiding/pvp gear but not too far behind. It's silly to have easily crafted gear on par with raid/pvp gear that requires much more work to acquire. 4 man trials/dungeons should be on par with crafted perhaps but with different set bonuses and aesthetics.

To me this is irrelevant , it is said on videos before this game was even out , the best gear would come from crafting.

To change this now would be making another of their promises a lie.

So yeah , if zen is capable ( i have my doubts they are) of adding equal gear on drops AND on crafting , then it is all fine.

But making it drop only would be an issue.

Technically if the best gear drops as blue in a raid and you "craft" it to gold the best gear just came from crafting.

Sorry but nope , the best gear came from drops , you upgraded it to become even better using crafting.

... so without crafting it isn't the best gear it has lower stats then the best gear right? Only with crafting it was upgraded to the best stats making it the best gear right?

kieso

No, I don't believe this type of content has a place in the Elder Scrolls Universe.

I also don't get how people say crafting is "easy". Most crafting in MMO's is easy just time and/or material gated. I own two accounts right now and have been playing since early access. I have two VR 1 characters and one VR 6 and I just hit 50 on clothing and woodworking and thats with funneling all weapons and armor to one crafter to deconn; while my blacksmithing is sitting at 49. My alchemy hit 50 about a week ago and that's with collecting mats myself and making potions without needlessly wasting mats. My enchanting is sitting at 25 right now by deconning each glyph I loot as well. So how long did that take? 3 months? Not exactly a very short amount of time.

hk11

I'm not sure. I think that...

I do think there should be, but after the classes are worked out a little more. I dont think seeing 25 standards getting dropped would be that awesome.

As far as gear goes, top end gear should be obtainable through crafting or raiding. Just make crafting it super expensive so that no matter how you get it, it's gonna cost you time.

pitdemon_ESO

No, I don't believe this type of content has a place in the Elder Scrolls Universe.

As long as raid gear doesn't affect PvP I have no opinion

isengrimb16_ESO

No, I don't believe this type of content has a place in the Elder Scrolls Universe.

I didn't mind the LFR loot chase during MoP. It was OK, at least on one character. But now I've killed Garrosh, and I don't really have any desire to repeat the process on a harder mode (I know, WoW inherited that from Diablo 1 and 2) just to get the bestest gear for .... a new expansion that'd make me replace it all within a couple of quests.

IF it's truly "progressive" - you're going through stories at slightly higher levels of difficulty that match the gear (and skill points) you get from the earlier chapters in the story - that's fine and dandy. If it's going to be "here's three raids for a year, with easy/hard/superdifficult mode", forget it, that weaksauce has been done.

Since ESO apparently - from what I heard - isn't going to have "expansions" per se, it might be the game with real STORY-progression raiding, instead of just a repetitive hamster-wheel of a gear-chase.

Anyway, I don't have to chase gear here. I can make it myself.

Krinaman

No, I don't believe this type of content has a place in the Elder Scrolls Universe.

kitsinni wrote: »

Krinaman wrote: »

While I agree the game needs more end game content I don't agree that the only solution is progressive raids with it being the only way to obtain BiS gear.

Give solo players the ability to get the gear, give small group players the ability, give crafters the ability. Make all of the methods require a time sink aka "grind". End game solved.

If anyone can just spend thirty second to travel to a crafting station and make all the best gear in the game what exactly does that solve as far as end game goes? You just took what would keep people occupied for months and took it down to a couple minutes. I think that would be end of game, not end game.

Also say you got all your end game BIS gear two minutes after the patch comes out what exactly do you do with it after crafting it just stand there in town hoping someone asks you what it is? Why do you even need the upgraded gear if not to take on harder and harder stuff?

Go back and reread the part where I said "Make all of the methods require a time sink aka "grind". "

kitsinni

Yes, I think progressive raiding would be good for the longevity of the game.

kieso wrote: »

I also don't get how people say crafting is "easy". Most crafting in MMO's is easy just time and/or material gated. I own two accounts right now and have been playing since early access. I have two VR 1 characters and one VR 6 and I just hit 50 on clothing and woodworking and thats with funneling all weapons and armor to one crafter to deconn; while my blacksmithing is sitting at 49. My alchemy hit 50 about a week ago and that's with collecting mats myself and making potions without needlessly wasting mats. My enchanting is sitting at 25 right now by deconning each glyph I loot as well. So how long did that take? 3 months? Not exactly a very short amount of time.

It is easy because you can hit max level without ever crafting in blacksmithing, clothing and woodworking. I you wanted to do decon trading you could have probably done all three in an afternoon. I have been collecting alchemy mats but after having all the mats collected it took like 20 minutes max to get from 1-50. Compared to most games I have played that is very easy. It is also easy because you don't have to find the recipes or do any quests or work for them.

Zorrashi

No, I don't believe this type of content has a place in the Elder Scrolls Universe.

kitsinni wrote: »

Krinaman wrote: »

While I agree the game needs more end game content I don't agree that the only solution is progressive raids with it being the only way to obtain BiS gear.

Give solo players the ability to get the gear, give small group players the ability, give crafters the ability. Make all of the methods require a time sink aka "grind". End game solved.

If anyone can just spend thirty second to travel to a crafting station and make all the best gear in the game what exactly does that solve as far as end game goes? You just took what would keep people occupied for months and took it down to a couple minutes. I think that would be end of game, not end game.

Also say you got all your end game BIS gear two minutes after the patch comes out what exactly do you do with it after crafting it just stand there in town hoping someone asks you what it is? Why do you even need the upgraded gear if not to take on harder and harder stuff?

Chill man. Not everyone is into raiding. Just like not everyone is waiting for 'something to strive for'. Many people just want the latest gear to be a completionist, look cool, simply be up to date...or take on what they consider to be harder content that is not necessarily a raid.

I think the overall point is not have raiders be the only ones permitted to have the best gear.

isengrimb16_ESO

No, I don't believe this type of content has a place in the Elder Scrolls Universe.

Zorrashi wrote: »

kitsinni wrote: »

Krinaman wrote: »

While I agree the game needs more end game content I don't agree that the only solution is progressive raids with it being the only way to obtain BiS gear.

Give solo players the ability to get the gear, give small group players the ability, give crafters the ability. Make all of the methods require a time sink aka "grind". End game solved.

If anyone can just spend thirty second to travel to a crafting station and make all the best gear in the game what exactly does that solve as far as end game goes? You just took what would keep people occupied for months and took it down to a couple minutes. I think that would be end of game, not end game.

Also say you got all your end game BIS gear two minutes after the patch comes out what exactly do you do with it after crafting it just stand there in town hoping someone asks you what it is? Why do you even need the upgraded gear if not to take on harder and harder stuff?

Chill man. Not everyone is into raiding. Just like not everyone is waiting for 'something to strive for'. Many people just want the latest gear to be a completionist, look cool, simply be up to date...or take on what they consider to be harder content that is not necessarily a raid.

I think the overall point is not have raiders be the only ones permitted to have the best gear.

Indeed. I'm quite glad I CAN make my own set tier gear, and don't have anyone breathing down my neck about how I don't deserve it because I'm an "LFR Bum". I can be a questor bum in my legendaries with legenday enchants.

kieso

No, I don't believe this type of content has a place in the Elder Scrolls Universe.

kitsinni wrote: »

kieso wrote: »

I also don't get how people say crafting is "easy". Most crafting in MMO's is easy just time and/or material gated. I own two accounts right now and have been playing since early access. I have two VR 1 characters and one VR 6 and I just hit 50 on clothing and woodworking and thats with funneling all weapons and armor to one crafter to deconn; while my blacksmithing is sitting at 49. My alchemy hit 50 about a week ago and that's with collecting mats myself and making potions without needlessly wasting mats. My enchanting is sitting at 25 right now by deconning each glyph I loot as well. So how long did that take? 3 months? Not exactly a very short amount of time.

It is easy because you can hit max level without ever crafting in blacksmithing, clothing and woodworking. I you wanted to do decon trading you could have probably done all three in an afternoon. I have been collecting alchemy mats but after having all the mats collected it took like 20 minutes max to get from 1-50. Compared to most games I have played that is very easy. It is also easy because you don't have to find the recipes or do any quests or work for them.

You should be counting how long it took you to gather the mats and/or gold to buy the mats to get your alchemy to 50 in order to gauge an accurate time investment. Same with all your other crafts.

EQBallzz

Yes, I think progressive raiding would be good for the longevity of the game.

Nox_Aeterna wrote: »

EQBallzz wrote: »

kieso wrote: »

EQBallzz wrote: »

Options and choices are good. The more options there are the better it is for the game's longevity and health. Trials, Cyrodiil, 4 man dungeons, 4 man trials, 12 man trials so why not 12 man dungeons? So long as they are careful to keep itemization parity between like activities so there isn't some balance issues introduced it should be fine.

I don't get why people would be against this. If you don't want to raid you don't have to which is the point of having options. Some may only want to PvP while others prefer trials and dungeons and still others may want a little of everything. So long as they don't make any one activity a requirement because it has a clear progression advantage over other options..why not?

I think all no voters would be fine with it if they kept itemization equal between all activities as you suggested.

Yeah, I could see if they made raid gear superior to PvP gear and people were "forced" to raid to get the best gear that would not be good but the easy answer to that problem is..don't do that.

The way I see it..12 man raid gear would be on par with 12 man trial gear which should be on par with PvP gear. They don't have to be identical but so long as they are relatively close it should be fine. People will probably still complain but that's unavoidable.

Crafted gear should be slightly worse than top end raiding/pvp gear but not too far behind. It's silly to have easily crafted gear on par with raid/pvp gear that requires much more work to acquire. 4 man trials/dungeons should be on par with crafted perhaps but with different set bonuses and aesthetics.

To me this is irrelevant , it is said on videos before this game was even out , the best gear would come from crafting.

To change this now would be making another of their promises a lie.

So yeah , if zen is capable ( i have my doubts they are) of adding equal gear on drops AND on crafting , then it is all fine.

But making it drop only would be an issue.

Yeah, I don't care what they said before the game was out. It makes no sense for crafted gear to be the de facto gear because crafting is a fairly trivial activity and removes most incentive to do other activities. At the present time there is little incentive to run a 4 man dungeon more than once to get the skill point/achievement because there is nothing else to gain. Some may argue that doing them again for the "challenge" is enough but let's be realistic here..the large majority like to get something useful in dungeons (even if it's rare) not just a bag of deconstructing fodder.

Don't get me wrong..I love that crafting is useful but it's also very, very easy in this game (with the exception of enchanting maybe). Materials are overly abundant and most of the crafting professions can be leveled up in no time. The only "difficult" thing is the time involved with researching traits. There should be some incentives/rewards to doing the content otherwise the content in game goes to waste and there is little reason to do it (or repeat it).

At the very least they should make the top end gear from progression (raids/trials/pvp) but also have equally rare crafted materials that only drop from those activities as well that makes equally good crafted gear. That would put the top end crafted gear and progression gear on par but still require some form of progression in any case.

kieso

No, I don't believe this type of content has a place in the Elder Scrolls Universe.

EQBallzz wrote: »

Nox_Aeterna wrote: »

EQBallzz wrote: »

kieso wrote: »

EQBallzz wrote: »

Options and choices are good. The more options there are the better it is for the game's longevity and health. Trials, Cyrodiil, 4 man dungeons, 4 man trials, 12 man trials so why not 12 man dungeons? So long as they are careful to keep itemization parity between like activities so there isn't some balance issues introduced it should be fine.

I don't get why people would be against this. If you don't want to raid you don't have to which is the point of having options. Some may only want to PvP while others prefer trials and dungeons and still others may want a little of everything. So long as they don't make any one activity a requirement because it has a clear progression advantage over other options..why not?

I think all no voters would be fine with it if they kept itemization equal between all activities as you suggested.

Yeah, I could see if they made raid gear superior to PvP gear and people were "forced" to raid to get the best gear that would not be good but the easy answer to that problem is..don't do that.

The way I see it..12 man raid gear would be on par with 12 man trial gear which should be on par with PvP gear. They don't have to be identical but so long as they are relatively close it should be fine. People will probably still complain but that's unavoidable.

Crafted gear should be slightly worse than top end raiding/pvp gear but not too far behind. It's silly to have easily crafted gear on par with raid/pvp gear that requires much more work to acquire. 4 man trials/dungeons should be on par with crafted perhaps but with different set bonuses and aesthetics.

To me this is irrelevant , it is said on videos before this game was even out , the best gear would come from crafting.

To change this now would be making another of their promises a lie.

So yeah , if zen is capable ( i have my doubts they are) of adding equal gear on drops AND on crafting , then it is all fine.

But making it drop only would be an issue.

Yeah, I don't care what they said before the game was out. It makes no sense for crafted gear to be the de facto gear because crafting is a fairly trivial activity and removes most incentive to do other activities. At the present time there is little incentive to run a 4 man dungeon more than once to get the skill point/achievement because there is nothing else to gain. Some may argue that doing them again for the "challenge" is enough but let's be realistic here..the large majority like to get something useful in dungeons (even if it's rare) not just a bag of deconstructing fodder.

Don't get me wrong..I love that crafting is useful but it's also very, very easy in this game (with the exception of enchanting maybe). Materials are overly abundant and most of the crafting professions can be leveled up in no time. The only "difficult" thing is the time involved with researching traits. There should be some incentives/rewards to doing the content otherwise the content in game goes to waste and there is little reason to do it (or repeat it).

At the very least they should make the top end gear from progression (raids/trials/pvp) but also have equally rare crafted materials that only drop from those activities as well that makes equally good crafted gear. That would put the top end crafted gear and progression gear on par but still require some form of progression in any case.

But now we're back to square one where raiding is it; a must if you will. So it inevitably becomes the focused activity that all must do to feel progress towards BiS gear.

Ser Lobo

Yes, I think progressive raiding would be good for the longevity of the game.

There are more options than just 'raid for best gear' (which is the easy way out) and 'craft for best gear'.

Take it as a time investment for token. If a raid takes four hours, and one raid gains one token (needing, say, 2 or three tokens to buy a piece of set gear), then you have two raids per piece of gear, guaranteed.

This isn't taking into account loot drops, just a guaranteed token system.

But raids wouldn't be the only way. Capture 10 keeps, get one token. run 5 VR dungeons, get one token. Run the arena 3 times, get one token.



The next important thing is this: the token 'mall' can be quite expansive. Mounts. Pets. Costumes. Emotes. New guild icons. Even more inventory slots or permanent character bonuses.

Gear drops do NOT have to be the driving force for end-game content. Gear drops do not need to be the driving force for ANY content. It's simply the easiest mechanic out there.

And it WILL lead to gear grinding. It WILL create power creep. It WILL cause this game to feel like every other game out there, where the only reason you log in is because you have to get that next tier of gear up before you can even experience new content.

Not because, you know, the game is actually fun or anything.