Justice system sugestion (Addition) - Killing Other players in PVE.

Lunerdog · July 2014

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

JKorr wrote: »

smeeprocketnub19_ESO wrote: »

JKorr wrote: »

smeeprocketnub19_ESO wrote: »

Haewk wrote: »

smeeprocketnub19_ESO wrote: »

MercyKilling wrote: »

Morgha_Kul wrote: »

If they get their fun by attacking people who don't want to play, well, that's not PvP anymore, that's griefing. I don't believe for a moment that all or even most PvPers want that.

Riiight. So say I want to go collect the skyshards that are in Cyrodiil. I don't want anything to do with the PvP going on there....do you really think /anyone/ is going to just let me walk on by?

Even if I don't resist and keep coming back?

No. To the PvP mindset, I'm just an easy mark. Someone to farm kills off of. This is why I haven't set foot in Cyrodiil since the beta weekends when we were supposed to test it.

but that wouldn't be griefing because you expressly entered a faction pvp zone.

Most of us don't care if you are an easy mark or not, you are the enemy, if it seems possible there is a chance of winning, a lot of us will try to kill you. We don't have deep internal discussions with ourselves about whether you entered to skyshard hunt or not. Even if I personally thought about that, I would still kill you because that is the risk you take being there.

However, why are you so afraid of dying? There's a lot of skyshards in cyrodiil. Well worth the crawl imo, not to mention a ton of awesome quests.

If you get killed you lose nothing. If you bring friends, ones that are good at escaping, you might have someone to rez you when the bad guy moves on. Or you might even team up and take said bad guy out.

Worst case scenario you have some horse riding ahead of you. Where does this fear and/or contempt come from?

And you completely missed the point.

Argument:
If they get their fun by attacking people who don't want to play, well, that's not PvP anymore, that's griefing. I don't believe for a moment that all or even most PvPers want that.

Counter:
Someone enters Cyrodiil to get the skyshards, not to PvP. They do not engage anyone, they do not fight back. Yet they are attacked because they can be attacked.

People are not *afraid* of being killed in PvP, this is just your own opinions and speculation and has in fact little to do with it. It has a lot more to do with being annoyed at being forced into PvP when you have no intention of PvPing and then having your time wasted by other players and their playstyle which is completely different from yours. And most PvEers don't like their characters being killed, who does? The point of the game to a large extent is not to die.

You are in a pvp zone, the entire purpose of the zone is pvp, and the pve exists to facilitate that in different ways. When in Rome, do as the Romans. Of course they are attacked because they can be attacked because that is why most people are there.

The game has zero punishments for dying to another player. I think we all don't like to die, but having it happen shouldn't be the end of the world either or you take things too seriously.

That seems to be the difference; I don't attack anyone unless they are attacking me. Running up to a person who is ignoring my character and attacking them is something I wouldn't do.

If I would be in a group attacking or defending a keep/farm/resource that would be a different circumstance. That is clearly pvp and I wouldn't expect anything different. If I'm alone or with one friend going after a skyshard, I don't bother to fight with anyone who didn't start it first. In fact I've done that, collecting shards in Cyrodiil. The only ones who got killed were the npc bandits in the mine/dungeon/delve.

The game has zero punishments for dying in pvp, true. However it is wasting my time, interrupting my game, and generally being a pointless annoyance for me. Because someone wanted to kill another player who wasn't pvping and completely ignoring them I have to go back through pvp territory to get back to where I was to collect the shard. Possibly getting killed again by a pvper, or by the critters and npc enemies on the way. It isn't "the end of the world", but it isn't something that I want forced on me when I have no interest in it.

Obviously your opinion is different.

You basically don't want to ever have any setbacks ever. Most games don't work that way.

No, you're wrong.

I don't care about setbacks, deaths, or equipment deterioration when it happens as part of the game mechanics. I was attempting a quest 5 levels over where I was, and I died enough times to have a 1124 gold repair bill for my gear at the end of it, but I was bound and determined to get through the quest. And I did. Leveled up because of finishing it, actually.

What I don't want to have is setbacks caused by someone "who just wants to murder people". Or who goes out intending to kill as many players as possible, whether or not those players want to pvp. Your idea of fun isn't the same as mine. The justice system isn't supposed to conform to your idea of fun. If they ever start open world pvp, I'd quit the game because I want to play the game, not get killed by people who aren't playing the game, just running around murdering people.

Again, you do understand that the justice system is opt-in, right? I mean, that has to have been made clear by now...

Yes and while you keep repeating the same stuff over and over you seem to be unable or refuse to grasp that it may not work as intended which will leave PVE'rs open to griefing.

If the opt in part works as intended then its win win for everyone, if it doesn't work as intended then you know as well as I do that certain folk will make a nuisance of themselves.

I still think that bankers, merchants and quest givers should not be attackable, plus magic casting should be suppressed in banks and crafting table areas.

Anastasia · July 2014

fromtesonlineb16_ESO wrote: »

Morgha_Kul wrote: »

MercyKilling wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

Since the game doesn't give you a costume for a t-shirt that says "Please don't hit me. Please, please, please," you may just have to deal with getting killed by people who don't know that you're only searching the region for shards.

This is what open world PvP equates to. Nobody knows I don't really want to PvP, but with open world mecanics I'm having something I don't particularly care for thrust upon me.

Also, for the record...I -do- play games with player vs. player interactions. War Thunder. War of the Roses. World of Tanks, just to name a few. In THOSE games, I go into them knowing and wanting to have player conflicts.
I don't want player conflicts here. The title of this thread( and its subject by default) is killing other players in a PvE setting...which equates to open world PvP. It's a suggestion for the notion.
For the record, I'm firmly saying no. I've said it several times before...I'll say it again. The very moment anything resembling open world PvP is implemented here...I'm gone. I think a lot of people feel the same way...but I could be wrong. I admit that. I just don't think I am.

I don't think anyone is advocating open-world pvp. I think the purpose here is to ALLOW pvp in areas that are otherwise just pve zones.

This has been done before, often. You just give the player the option to toggle a pvp flag, allowing them to attack and be attacked. You turn off the toggle, and you can't be forced into pvp. Simple.

Griefing doesn't per se mean *I* have to be the target, if the griefer is slaughtering NPCs I need to quest then that's equally 'grieifng': WOW's PVE servers for example prevent you being attacked if you're not flagged, didn't prevent PVP jerks destroying entire quest hubs to prevent PVE play.

Its already been established that quest NPC's won't be affected by the Justice System.

nerevarine1138 · July 2014

Lunerdog wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

JKorr wrote: »

smeeprocketnub19_ESO wrote: »

JKorr wrote: »

smeeprocketnub19_ESO wrote: »

Haewk wrote: »

smeeprocketnub19_ESO wrote: »

MercyKilling wrote: »

Morgha_Kul wrote: »

If they get their fun by attacking people who don't want to play, well, that's not PvP anymore, that's griefing. I don't believe for a moment that all or even most PvPers want that.

Riiight. So say I want to go collect the skyshards that are in Cyrodiil. I don't want anything to do with the PvP going on there....do you really think /anyone/ is going to just let me walk on by?

Even if I don't resist and keep coming back?

No. To the PvP mindset, I'm just an easy mark. Someone to farm kills off of. This is why I haven't set foot in Cyrodiil since the beta weekends when we were supposed to test it.

but that wouldn't be griefing because you expressly entered a faction pvp zone.

Most of us don't care if you are an easy mark or not, you are the enemy, if it seems possible there is a chance of winning, a lot of us will try to kill you. We don't have deep internal discussions with ourselves about whether you entered to skyshard hunt or not. Even if I personally thought about that, I would still kill you because that is the risk you take being there.

However, why are you so afraid of dying? There's a lot of skyshards in cyrodiil. Well worth the crawl imo, not to mention a ton of awesome quests.

If you get killed you lose nothing. If you bring friends, ones that are good at escaping, you might have someone to rez you when the bad guy moves on. Or you might even team up and take said bad guy out.

Worst case scenario you have some horse riding ahead of you. Where does this fear and/or contempt come from?

And you completely missed the point.

Argument:
If they get their fun by attacking people who don't want to play, well, that's not PvP anymore, that's griefing. I don't believe for a moment that all or even most PvPers want that.

Counter:
Someone enters Cyrodiil to get the skyshards, not to PvP. They do not engage anyone, they do not fight back. Yet they are attacked because they can be attacked.

People are not *afraid* of being killed in PvP, this is just your own opinions and speculation and has in fact little to do with it. It has a lot more to do with being annoyed at being forced into PvP when you have no intention of PvPing and then having your time wasted by other players and their playstyle which is completely different from yours. And most PvEers don't like their characters being killed, who does? The point of the game to a large extent is not to die.

You are in a pvp zone, the entire purpose of the zone is pvp, and the pve exists to facilitate that in different ways. When in Rome, do as the Romans. Of course they are attacked because they can be attacked because that is why most people are there.

The game has zero punishments for dying to another player. I think we all don't like to die, but having it happen shouldn't be the end of the world either or you take things too seriously.

That seems to be the difference; I don't attack anyone unless they are attacking me. Running up to a person who is ignoring my character and attacking them is something I wouldn't do.

If I would be in a group attacking or defending a keep/farm/resource that would be a different circumstance. That is clearly pvp and I wouldn't expect anything different. If I'm alone or with one friend going after a skyshard, I don't bother to fight with anyone who didn't start it first. In fact I've done that, collecting shards in Cyrodiil. The only ones who got killed were the npc bandits in the mine/dungeon/delve.

The game has zero punishments for dying in pvp, true. However it is wasting my time, interrupting my game, and generally being a pointless annoyance for me. Because someone wanted to kill another player who wasn't pvping and completely ignoring them I have to go back through pvp territory to get back to where I was to collect the shard. Possibly getting killed again by a pvper, or by the critters and npc enemies on the way. It isn't "the end of the world", but it isn't something that I want forced on me when I have no interest in it.

Obviously your opinion is different.

You basically don't want to ever have any setbacks ever. Most games don't work that way.

No, you're wrong.

I don't care about setbacks, deaths, or equipment deterioration when it happens as part of the game mechanics. I was attempting a quest 5 levels over where I was, and I died enough times to have a 1124 gold repair bill for my gear at the end of it, but I was bound and determined to get through the quest. And I did. Leveled up because of finishing it, actually.

What I don't want to have is setbacks caused by someone "who just wants to murder people". Or who goes out intending to kill as many players as possible, whether or not those players want to pvp. Your idea of fun isn't the same as mine. The justice system isn't supposed to conform to your idea of fun. If they ever start open world pvp, I'd quit the game because I want to play the game, not get killed by people who aren't playing the game, just running around murdering people.

Again, you do understand that the justice system is opt-in, right? I mean, that has to have been made clear by now...

Yes and while you keep repeating the same stuff over and over you seem to be unable or refuse to grasp that it may not work as intended which will leave PVE'rs open to griefing.

If the opt in part works as intended then its win win for everyone, if it doesn't work as intended then you know as well as I do that certain folk will make a nuisance of themselves.

I still think that bankers, merchants and quest givers should not be attackable, plus magic casting should be suppressed in banks and crafting table areas.

Complaining about a system because it may not work as intended is insane. I'm not refusing to acknowledge that bugs/exploits may occur. This is an MMO, of course they will. But that has nothing to do with the basic mechanics of the system, which are as follows:

You must be detected in the commission of a crime in order to receive a bounty. You must decline to pay your fine in order to be flagged for attack by any guards. These are facts. You are ignoring them in order to scare people who don't know any better by pretending that this system will somehow allow PvPers to tie PvE players to stakes and burn them alive. If you don't want to take part in the system, you won't have to.

KariTR · July 2014

Can I just clarify one thing?

I am a gamer. Not a PvP'er or PvE'er. A gamer.

Please stop segregating me.

Lunerdog · July 2014

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

Lunerdog wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

JKorr wrote: »

smeeprocketnub19_ESO wrote: »

JKorr wrote: »

smeeprocketnub19_ESO wrote: »

Haewk wrote: »

smeeprocketnub19_ESO wrote: »

MercyKilling wrote: »

Morgha_Kul wrote: »

If they get their fun by attacking people who don't want to play, well, that's not PvP anymore, that's griefing. I don't believe for a moment that all or even most PvPers want that.

Riiight. So say I want to go collect the skyshards that are in Cyrodiil. I don't want anything to do with the PvP going on there....do you really think /anyone/ is going to just let me walk on by?

Even if I don't resist and keep coming back?

No. To the PvP mindset, I'm just an easy mark. Someone to farm kills off of. This is why I haven't set foot in Cyrodiil since the beta weekends when we were supposed to test it.

but that wouldn't be griefing because you expressly entered a faction pvp zone.

Most of us don't care if you are an easy mark or not, you are the enemy, if it seems possible there is a chance of winning, a lot of us will try to kill you. We don't have deep internal discussions with ourselves about whether you entered to skyshard hunt or not. Even if I personally thought about that, I would still kill you because that is the risk you take being there.

However, why are you so afraid of dying? There's a lot of skyshards in cyrodiil. Well worth the crawl imo, not to mention a ton of awesome quests.

If you get killed you lose nothing. If you bring friends, ones that are good at escaping, you might have someone to rez you when the bad guy moves on. Or you might even team up and take said bad guy out.

Worst case scenario you have some horse riding ahead of you. Where does this fear and/or contempt come from?

And you completely missed the point.

Argument:
If they get their fun by attacking people who don't want to play, well, that's not PvP anymore, that's griefing. I don't believe for a moment that all or even most PvPers want that.

Counter:
Someone enters Cyrodiil to get the skyshards, not to PvP. They do not engage anyone, they do not fight back. Yet they are attacked because they can be attacked.

People are not *afraid* of being killed in PvP, this is just your own opinions and speculation and has in fact little to do with it. It has a lot more to do with being annoyed at being forced into PvP when you have no intention of PvPing and then having your time wasted by other players and their playstyle which is completely different from yours. And most PvEers don't like their characters being killed, who does? The point of the game to a large extent is not to die.

You are in a pvp zone, the entire purpose of the zone is pvp, and the pve exists to facilitate that in different ways. When in Rome, do as the Romans. Of course they are attacked because they can be attacked because that is why most people are there.

The game has zero punishments for dying to another player. I think we all don't like to die, but having it happen shouldn't be the end of the world either or you take things too seriously.

That seems to be the difference; I don't attack anyone unless they are attacking me. Running up to a person who is ignoring my character and attacking them is something I wouldn't do.

If I would be in a group attacking or defending a keep/farm/resource that would be a different circumstance. That is clearly pvp and I wouldn't expect anything different. If I'm alone or with one friend going after a skyshard, I don't bother to fight with anyone who didn't start it first. In fact I've done that, collecting shards in Cyrodiil. The only ones who got killed were the npc bandits in the mine/dungeon/delve.

The game has zero punishments for dying in pvp, true. However it is wasting my time, interrupting my game, and generally being a pointless annoyance for me. Because someone wanted to kill another player who wasn't pvping and completely ignoring them I have to go back through pvp territory to get back to where I was to collect the shard. Possibly getting killed again by a pvper, or by the critters and npc enemies on the way. It isn't "the end of the world", but it isn't something that I want forced on me when I have no interest in it.

Obviously your opinion is different.

You basically don't want to ever have any setbacks ever. Most games don't work that way.

No, you're wrong.

I don't care about setbacks, deaths, or equipment deterioration when it happens as part of the game mechanics. I was attempting a quest 5 levels over where I was, and I died enough times to have a 1124 gold repair bill for my gear at the end of it, but I was bound and determined to get through the quest. And I did. Leveled up because of finishing it, actually.

What I don't want to have is setbacks caused by someone "who just wants to murder people". Or who goes out intending to kill as many players as possible, whether or not those players want to pvp. Your idea of fun isn't the same as mine. The justice system isn't supposed to conform to your idea of fun. If they ever start open world pvp, I'd quit the game because I want to play the game, not get killed by people who aren't playing the game, just running around murdering people.

Again, you do understand that the justice system is opt-in, right? I mean, that has to have been made clear by now...

Yes and while you keep repeating the same stuff over and over you seem to be unable or refuse to grasp that it may not work as intended which will leave PVE'rs open to griefing.

If the opt in part works as intended then its win win for everyone, if it doesn't work as intended then you know as well as I do that certain folk will make a nuisance of themselves.

I still think that bankers, merchants and quest givers should not be attackable, plus magic casting should be suppressed in banks and crafting table areas.

Complaining about a system because it may not work as intended is insane. I'm not refusing to acknowledge that bugs/exploits may occur. This is an MMO, of course they will. But that has nothing to do with the basic mechanics of the system, which are as follows:

You must be detected in the commission of a crime in order to receive a bounty. You must decline to pay your fine in order to be flagged for attack by any guards. These are facts. You are ignoring them in order to scare people who don't know any better by pretending that this system will somehow allow PvPers to tie PvE players to stakes and burn them alive. If you don't want to take part in the system, you won't have to.

Yes but I wasn't complaining, just stating it as I see it.

And you repeating yourself yet again isn't going to change that for me or anybody else.

nerevarine1138 · July 2014

Lunerdog wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

Lunerdog wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

JKorr wrote: »

smeeprocketnub19_ESO wrote: »

JKorr wrote: »

smeeprocketnub19_ESO wrote: »

Haewk wrote: »

smeeprocketnub19_ESO wrote: »

MercyKilling wrote: »

Morgha_Kul wrote: »

If they get their fun by attacking people who don't want to play, well, that's not PvP anymore, that's griefing. I don't believe for a moment that all or even most PvPers want that.

Riiight. So say I want to go collect the skyshards that are in Cyrodiil. I don't want anything to do with the PvP going on there....do you really think /anyone/ is going to just let me walk on by?

Even if I don't resist and keep coming back?

No. To the PvP mindset, I'm just an easy mark. Someone to farm kills off of. This is why I haven't set foot in Cyrodiil since the beta weekends when we were supposed to test it.

but that wouldn't be griefing because you expressly entered a faction pvp zone.

Most of us don't care if you are an easy mark or not, you are the enemy, if it seems possible there is a chance of winning, a lot of us will try to kill you. We don't have deep internal discussions with ourselves about whether you entered to skyshard hunt or not. Even if I personally thought about that, I would still kill you because that is the risk you take being there.

However, why are you so afraid of dying? There's a lot of skyshards in cyrodiil. Well worth the crawl imo, not to mention a ton of awesome quests.

If you get killed you lose nothing. If you bring friends, ones that are good at escaping, you might have someone to rez you when the bad guy moves on. Or you might even team up and take said bad guy out.

Worst case scenario you have some horse riding ahead of you. Where does this fear and/or contempt come from?

And you completely missed the point.

Argument:
If they get their fun by attacking people who don't want to play, well, that's not PvP anymore, that's griefing. I don't believe for a moment that all or even most PvPers want that.

Counter:
Someone enters Cyrodiil to get the skyshards, not to PvP. They do not engage anyone, they do not fight back. Yet they are attacked because they can be attacked.

People are not *afraid* of being killed in PvP, this is just your own opinions and speculation and has in fact little to do with it. It has a lot more to do with being annoyed at being forced into PvP when you have no intention of PvPing and then having your time wasted by other players and their playstyle which is completely different from yours. And most PvEers don't like their characters being killed, who does? The point of the game to a large extent is not to die.

You are in a pvp zone, the entire purpose of the zone is pvp, and the pve exists to facilitate that in different ways. When in Rome, do as the Romans. Of course they are attacked because they can be attacked because that is why most people are there.

The game has zero punishments for dying to another player. I think we all don't like to die, but having it happen shouldn't be the end of the world either or you take things too seriously.

That seems to be the difference; I don't attack anyone unless they are attacking me. Running up to a person who is ignoring my character and attacking them is something I wouldn't do.

If I would be in a group attacking or defending a keep/farm/resource that would be a different circumstance. That is clearly pvp and I wouldn't expect anything different. If I'm alone or with one friend going after a skyshard, I don't bother to fight with anyone who didn't start it first. In fact I've done that, collecting shards in Cyrodiil. The only ones who got killed were the npc bandits in the mine/dungeon/delve.

The game has zero punishments for dying in pvp, true. However it is wasting my time, interrupting my game, and generally being a pointless annoyance for me. Because someone wanted to kill another player who wasn't pvping and completely ignoring them I have to go back through pvp territory to get back to where I was to collect the shard. Possibly getting killed again by a pvper, or by the critters and npc enemies on the way. It isn't "the end of the world", but it isn't something that I want forced on me when I have no interest in it.

Obviously your opinion is different.

You basically don't want to ever have any setbacks ever. Most games don't work that way.

No, you're wrong.

I don't care about setbacks, deaths, or equipment deterioration when it happens as part of the game mechanics. I was attempting a quest 5 levels over where I was, and I died enough times to have a 1124 gold repair bill for my gear at the end of it, but I was bound and determined to get through the quest. And I did. Leveled up because of finishing it, actually.

What I don't want to have is setbacks caused by someone "who just wants to murder people". Or who goes out intending to kill as many players as possible, whether or not those players want to pvp. Your idea of fun isn't the same as mine. The justice system isn't supposed to conform to your idea of fun. If they ever start open world pvp, I'd quit the game because I want to play the game, not get killed by people who aren't playing the game, just running around murdering people.

Again, you do understand that the justice system is opt-in, right? I mean, that has to have been made clear by now...

Yes and while you keep repeating the same stuff over and over you seem to be unable or refuse to grasp that it may not work as intended which will leave PVE'rs open to griefing.

If the opt in part works as intended then its win win for everyone, if it doesn't work as intended then you know as well as I do that certain folk will make a nuisance of themselves.

I still think that bankers, merchants and quest givers should not be attackable, plus magic casting should be suppressed in banks and crafting table areas.

Complaining about a system because it may not work as intended is insane. I'm not refusing to acknowledge that bugs/exploits may occur. This is an MMO, of course they will. But that has nothing to do with the basic mechanics of the system, which are as follows:

You must be detected in the commission of a crime in order to receive a bounty. You must decline to pay your fine in order to be flagged for attack by any guards. These are facts. You are ignoring them in order to scare people who don't know any better by pretending that this system will somehow allow PvPers to tie PvE players to stakes and burn them alive. If you don't want to take part in the system, you won't have to.

Yes but I wasn't complaining, just stating it as I see it.

And you repeating yourself yet again isn't going to change that for me or anybody else.

Ok, let's make some other "statements."

I think the dye system sucks because I know that people are going to find a way to use dyes for evil. I don't know how, but Zenimax can't stop that!

I think that spellcrafting sucks because ZO can't help but release it with bugs. Down with spellcrafting!

Don't update the game with new content ever, because all new content will suck. Bugs! Exploits! Feeeeeaarrrr!

Lunerdog · July 2014

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

Lunerdog wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

Lunerdog wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

JKorr wrote: »

smeeprocketnub19_ESO wrote: »

JKorr wrote: »

smeeprocketnub19_ESO wrote: »

Haewk wrote: »

smeeprocketnub19_ESO wrote: »

MercyKilling wrote: »

Morgha_Kul wrote: »

If they get their fun by attacking people who don't want to play, well, that's not PvP anymore, that's griefing. I don't believe for a moment that all or even most PvPers want that.

Riiight. So say I want to go collect the skyshards that are in Cyrodiil. I don't want anything to do with the PvP going on there....do you really think /anyone/ is going to just let me walk on by?

Even if I don't resist and keep coming back?

No. To the PvP mindset, I'm just an easy mark. Someone to farm kills off of. This is why I haven't set foot in Cyrodiil since the beta weekends when we were supposed to test it.

but that wouldn't be griefing because you expressly entered a faction pvp zone.

Most of us don't care if you are an easy mark or not, you are the enemy, if it seems possible there is a chance of winning, a lot of us will try to kill you. We don't have deep internal discussions with ourselves about whether you entered to skyshard hunt or not. Even if I personally thought about that, I would still kill you because that is the risk you take being there.

However, why are you so afraid of dying? There's a lot of skyshards in cyrodiil. Well worth the crawl imo, not to mention a ton of awesome quests.

If you get killed you lose nothing. If you bring friends, ones that are good at escaping, you might have someone to rez you when the bad guy moves on. Or you might even team up and take said bad guy out.

Worst case scenario you have some horse riding ahead of you. Where does this fear and/or contempt come from?

And you completely missed the point.

Argument:
If they get their fun by attacking people who don't want to play, well, that's not PvP anymore, that's griefing. I don't believe for a moment that all or even most PvPers want that.

Counter:
Someone enters Cyrodiil to get the skyshards, not to PvP. They do not engage anyone, they do not fight back. Yet they are attacked because they can be attacked.

People are not *afraid* of being killed in PvP, this is just your own opinions and speculation and has in fact little to do with it. It has a lot more to do with being annoyed at being forced into PvP when you have no intention of PvPing and then having your time wasted by other players and their playstyle which is completely different from yours. And most PvEers don't like their characters being killed, who does? The point of the game to a large extent is not to die.

You are in a pvp zone, the entire purpose of the zone is pvp, and the pve exists to facilitate that in different ways. When in Rome, do as the Romans. Of course they are attacked because they can be attacked because that is why most people are there.

The game has zero punishments for dying to another player. I think we all don't like to die, but having it happen shouldn't be the end of the world either or you take things too seriously.

That seems to be the difference; I don't attack anyone unless they are attacking me. Running up to a person who is ignoring my character and attacking them is something I wouldn't do.

If I would be in a group attacking or defending a keep/farm/resource that would be a different circumstance. That is clearly pvp and I wouldn't expect anything different. If I'm alone or with one friend going after a skyshard, I don't bother to fight with anyone who didn't start it first. In fact I've done that, collecting shards in Cyrodiil. The only ones who got killed were the npc bandits in the mine/dungeon/delve.

The game has zero punishments for dying in pvp, true. However it is wasting my time, interrupting my game, and generally being a pointless annoyance for me. Because someone wanted to kill another player who wasn't pvping and completely ignoring them I have to go back through pvp territory to get back to where I was to collect the shard. Possibly getting killed again by a pvper, or by the critters and npc enemies on the way. It isn't "the end of the world", but it isn't something that I want forced on me when I have no interest in it.

Obviously your opinion is different.

You basically don't want to ever have any setbacks ever. Most games don't work that way.

No, you're wrong.

I don't care about setbacks, deaths, or equipment deterioration when it happens as part of the game mechanics. I was attempting a quest 5 levels over where I was, and I died enough times to have a 1124 gold repair bill for my gear at the end of it, but I was bound and determined to get through the quest. And I did. Leveled up because of finishing it, actually.

What I don't want to have is setbacks caused by someone "who just wants to murder people". Or who goes out intending to kill as many players as possible, whether or not those players want to pvp. Your idea of fun isn't the same as mine. The justice system isn't supposed to conform to your idea of fun. If they ever start open world pvp, I'd quit the game because I want to play the game, not get killed by people who aren't playing the game, just running around murdering people.

Again, you do understand that the justice system is opt-in, right? I mean, that has to have been made clear by now...

Yes and while you keep repeating the same stuff over and over you seem to be unable or refuse to grasp that it may not work as intended which will leave PVE'rs open to griefing.

If the opt in part works as intended then its win win for everyone, if it doesn't work as intended then you know as well as I do that certain folk will make a nuisance of themselves.

I still think that bankers, merchants and quest givers should not be attackable, plus magic casting should be suppressed in banks and crafting table areas.

Complaining about a system because it may not work as intended is insane. I'm not refusing to acknowledge that bugs/exploits may occur. This is an MMO, of course they will. But that has nothing to do with the basic mechanics of the system, which are as follows:

You must be detected in the commission of a crime in order to receive a bounty. You must decline to pay your fine in order to be flagged for attack by any guards. These are facts. You are ignoring them in order to scare people who don't know any better by pretending that this system will somehow allow PvPers to tie PvE players to stakes and burn them alive. If you don't want to take part in the system, you won't have to.

Yes but I wasn't complaining, just stating it as I see it.

And you repeating yourself yet again isn't going to change that for me or anybody else.

Ok, let's make some other "statements."

I think the dye system sucks because I know that people are going to find a way to use dyes for evil. I don't know how, but Zenimax can't stop that!

I think that spellcrafting sucks because ZO can't help but release it with bugs. Down with spellcrafting!

Don't update the game with new content ever, because all new content will suck. Bugs! Exploits! Feeeeeaarrrr!

Lol, your trolling is improving, but you still ain't convinced me of anything.

JKorr · July 2014

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

JKorr wrote: »

smeeprocketnub19_ESO wrote: »

JKorr wrote: »

smeeprocketnub19_ESO wrote: »

Haewk wrote: »

smeeprocketnub19_ESO wrote: »

MercyKilling wrote: »

Morgha_Kul wrote: »

If they get their fun by attacking people who don't want to play, well, that's not PvP anymore, that's griefing. I don't believe for a moment that all or even most PvPers want that.

Riiight. So say I want to go collect the skyshards that are in Cyrodiil. I don't want anything to do with the PvP going on there....do you really think /anyone/ is going to just let me walk on by?

Even if I don't resist and keep coming back?

No. To the PvP mindset, I'm just an easy mark. Someone to farm kills off of. This is why I haven't set foot in Cyrodiil since the beta weekends when we were supposed to test it.

but that wouldn't be griefing because you expressly entered a faction pvp zone.

Most of us don't care if you are an easy mark or not, you are the enemy, if it seems possible there is a chance of winning, a lot of us will try to kill you. We don't have deep internal discussions with ourselves about whether you entered to skyshard hunt or not. Even if I personally thought about that, I would still kill you because that is the risk you take being there.

However, why are you so afraid of dying? There's a lot of skyshards in cyrodiil. Well worth the crawl imo, not to mention a ton of awesome quests.

If you get killed you lose nothing. If you bring friends, ones that are good at escaping, you might have someone to rez you when the bad guy moves on. Or you might even team up and take said bad guy out.

Worst case scenario you have some horse riding ahead of you. Where does this fear and/or contempt come from?

And you completely missed the point.

Argument:
If they get their fun by attacking people who don't want to play, well, that's not PvP anymore, that's griefing. I don't believe for a moment that all or even most PvPers want that.

Counter:
Someone enters Cyrodiil to get the skyshards, not to PvP. They do not engage anyone, they do not fight back. Yet they are attacked because they can be attacked.

People are not *afraid* of being killed in PvP, this is just your own opinions and speculation and has in fact little to do with it. It has a lot more to do with being annoyed at being forced into PvP when you have no intention of PvPing and then having your time wasted by other players and their playstyle which is completely different from yours. And most PvEers don't like their characters being killed, who does? The point of the game to a large extent is not to die.

You are in a pvp zone, the entire purpose of the zone is pvp, and the pve exists to facilitate that in different ways. When in Rome, do as the Romans. Of course they are attacked because they can be attacked because that is why most people are there.

The game has zero punishments for dying to another player. I think we all don't like to die, but having it happen shouldn't be the end of the world either or you take things too seriously.

That seems to be the difference; I don't attack anyone unless they are attacking me. Running up to a person who is ignoring my character and attacking them is something I wouldn't do.

If I would be in a group attacking or defending a keep/farm/resource that would be a different circumstance. That is clearly pvp and I wouldn't expect anything different. If I'm alone or with one friend going after a skyshard, I don't bother to fight with anyone who didn't start it first. In fact I've done that, collecting shards in Cyrodiil. The only ones who got killed were the npc bandits in the mine/dungeon/delve.

The game has zero punishments for dying in pvp, true. However it is wasting my time, interrupting my game, and generally being a pointless annoyance for me. Because someone wanted to kill another player who wasn't pvping and completely ignoring them I have to go back through pvp territory to get back to where I was to collect the shard. Possibly getting killed again by a pvper, or by the critters and npc enemies on the way. It isn't "the end of the world", but it isn't something that I want forced on me when I have no interest in it.

Obviously your opinion is different.

You basically don't want to ever have any setbacks ever. Most games don't work that way.

No, you're wrong.

I don't care about setbacks, deaths, or equipment deterioration when it happens as part of the game mechanics. I was attempting a quest 5 levels over where I was, and I died enough times to have a 1124 gold repair bill for my gear at the end of it, but I was bound and determined to get through the quest. And I did. Leveled up because of finishing it, actually.

What I don't want to have is setbacks caused by someone "who just wants to murder people". Or who goes out intending to kill as many players as possible, whether or not those players want to pvp. Your idea of fun isn't the same as mine. The justice system isn't supposed to conform to your idea of fun. If they ever start open world pvp, I'd quit the game because I want to play the game, not get killed by people who aren't playing the game, just running around murdering people.

Again, you do understand that the justice system is opt-in, right? I mean, that has to have been made clear by now...

Yes, I do.

I also understand that there are still people who want the justice system to mean open world pvp kill anyone anywhere any time. Or hasn't that been show clearly by now? People don't understand that their idea of fun, attacking/murdering players who don't want to pvp, is not fun for the players getting killed when they didn't opt in.

smeeprocketnub19_ESO · July 2014

JKorr wrote: »

smeeprocketnub19_ESO wrote: »

JKorr wrote: »

smeeprocketnub19_ESO wrote: »

Haewk wrote: »

smeeprocketnub19_ESO wrote: »

MercyKilling wrote: »

Morgha_Kul wrote: »

If they get their fun by attacking people who don't want to play, well, that's not PvP anymore, that's griefing. I don't believe for a moment that all or even most PvPers want that.

Riiight. So say I want to go collect the skyshards that are in Cyrodiil. I don't want anything to do with the PvP going on there....do you really think /anyone/ is going to just let me walk on by?

Even if I don't resist and keep coming back?

No. To the PvP mindset, I'm just an easy mark. Someone to farm kills off of. This is why I haven't set foot in Cyrodiil since the beta weekends when we were supposed to test it.

but that wouldn't be griefing because you expressly entered a faction pvp zone.

Most of us don't care if you are an easy mark or not, you are the enemy, if it seems possible there is a chance of winning, a lot of us will try to kill you. We don't have deep internal discussions with ourselves about whether you entered to skyshard hunt or not. Even if I personally thought about that, I would still kill you because that is the risk you take being there.

However, why are you so afraid of dying? There's a lot of skyshards in cyrodiil. Well worth the crawl imo, not to mention a ton of awesome quests.

If you get killed you lose nothing. If you bring friends, ones that are good at escaping, you might have someone to rez you when the bad guy moves on. Or you might even team up and take said bad guy out.

Worst case scenario you have some horse riding ahead of you. Where does this fear and/or contempt come from?

And you completely missed the point.

Argument:
If they get their fun by attacking people who don't want to play, well, that's not PvP anymore, that's griefing. I don't believe for a moment that all or even most PvPers want that.

Counter:
Someone enters Cyrodiil to get the skyshards, not to PvP. They do not engage anyone, they do not fight back. Yet they are attacked because they can be attacked.

People are not *afraid* of being killed in PvP, this is just your own opinions and speculation and has in fact little to do with it. It has a lot more to do with being annoyed at being forced into PvP when you have no intention of PvPing and then having your time wasted by other players and their playstyle which is completely different from yours. And most PvEers don't like their characters being killed, who does? The point of the game to a large extent is not to die.

You are in a pvp zone, the entire purpose of the zone is pvp, and the pve exists to facilitate that in different ways. When in Rome, do as the Romans. Of course they are attacked because they can be attacked because that is why most people are there.

The game has zero punishments for dying to another player. I think we all don't like to die, but having it happen shouldn't be the end of the world either or you take things too seriously.

That seems to be the difference; I don't attack anyone unless they are attacking me. Running up to a person who is ignoring my character and attacking them is something I wouldn't do.

If I would be in a group attacking or defending a keep/farm/resource that would be a different circumstance. That is clearly pvp and I wouldn't expect anything different. If I'm alone or with one friend going after a skyshard, I don't bother to fight with anyone who didn't start it first. In fact I've done that, collecting shards in Cyrodiil. The only ones who got killed were the npc bandits in the mine/dungeon/delve.

The game has zero punishments for dying in pvp, true. However it is wasting my time, interrupting my game, and generally being a pointless annoyance for me. Because someone wanted to kill another player who wasn't pvping and completely ignoring them I have to go back through pvp territory to get back to where I was to collect the shard. Possibly getting killed again by a pvper, or by the critters and npc enemies on the way. It isn't "the end of the world", but it isn't something that I want forced on me when I have no interest in it.

Obviously your opinion is different.

You basically don't want to ever have any setbacks ever. Most games don't work that way.

No, you're wrong.

I don't care about setbacks, deaths, or equipment deterioration when it happens as part of the game mechanics. I was attempting a quest 5 levels over where I was, and I died enough times to have a 1124 gold repair bill for my gear at the end of it, but I was bound and determined to get through the quest. And I did. Leveled up because of finishing it, actually.

What I don't want to have is setbacks caused by someone "who just wants to murder people". Or who goes out intending to kill as many players as possible, whether or not those players want to pvp. Your idea of fun isn't the same as mine. The justice system isn't supposed to conform to your idea of fun. If they ever start open world pvp, I'd quit the game because I want to play the game, not get killed by people who aren't playing the game, just running around murdering people.

except that you were making this complaint about going into a pvp zone. Which is what I was responding to. In said zone, I am in the right to kill you at will, as that is how it is designed.

BTW, I used to grief the hell out of hardcore griefers in the other games I played. I was dogged, and even when I couldn't detect their location, I was able to track them down and kill them repeatedly to prevent them from griefing other players. That doesn't mean I didn't kill people who were mortal enemies, pvp'rs or pve'rs (the game was open world pvp with very complex rules.)

smeeprocketnub19_ESO · July 2014

JKorr wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

JKorr wrote: »

smeeprocketnub19_ESO wrote: »

JKorr wrote: »

smeeprocketnub19_ESO wrote: »

Haewk wrote: »

smeeprocketnub19_ESO wrote: »

MercyKilling wrote: »

Morgha_Kul wrote: »

If they get their fun by attacking people who don't want to play, well, that's not PvP anymore, that's griefing. I don't believe for a moment that all or even most PvPers want that.

Riiight. So say I want to go collect the skyshards that are in Cyrodiil. I don't want anything to do with the PvP going on there....do you really think /anyone/ is going to just let me walk on by?

Even if I don't resist and keep coming back?

No. To the PvP mindset, I'm just an easy mark. Someone to farm kills off of. This is why I haven't set foot in Cyrodiil since the beta weekends when we were supposed to test it.

but that wouldn't be griefing because you expressly entered a faction pvp zone.

Most of us don't care if you are an easy mark or not, you are the enemy, if it seems possible there is a chance of winning, a lot of us will try to kill you. We don't have deep internal discussions with ourselves about whether you entered to skyshard hunt or not. Even if I personally thought about that, I would still kill you because that is the risk you take being there.

However, why are you so afraid of dying? There's a lot of skyshards in cyrodiil. Well worth the crawl imo, not to mention a ton of awesome quests.

If you get killed you lose nothing. If you bring friends, ones that are good at escaping, you might have someone to rez you when the bad guy moves on. Or you might even team up and take said bad guy out.

Worst case scenario you have some horse riding ahead of you. Where does this fear and/or contempt come from?

And you completely missed the point.

Argument:
If they get their fun by attacking people who don't want to play, well, that's not PvP anymore, that's griefing. I don't believe for a moment that all or even most PvPers want that.

Counter:
Someone enters Cyrodiil to get the skyshards, not to PvP. They do not engage anyone, they do not fight back. Yet they are attacked because they can be attacked.

People are not *afraid* of being killed in PvP, this is just your own opinions and speculation and has in fact little to do with it. It has a lot more to do with being annoyed at being forced into PvP when you have no intention of PvPing and then having your time wasted by other players and their playstyle which is completely different from yours. And most PvEers don't like their characters being killed, who does? The point of the game to a large extent is not to die.

You are in a pvp zone, the entire purpose of the zone is pvp, and the pve exists to facilitate that in different ways. When in Rome, do as the Romans. Of course they are attacked because they can be attacked because that is why most people are there.

The game has zero punishments for dying to another player. I think we all don't like to die, but having it happen shouldn't be the end of the world either or you take things too seriously.

That seems to be the difference; I don't attack anyone unless they are attacking me. Running up to a person who is ignoring my character and attacking them is something I wouldn't do.

If I would be in a group attacking or defending a keep/farm/resource that would be a different circumstance. That is clearly pvp and I wouldn't expect anything different. If I'm alone or with one friend going after a skyshard, I don't bother to fight with anyone who didn't start it first. In fact I've done that, collecting shards in Cyrodiil. The only ones who got killed were the npc bandits in the mine/dungeon/delve.

The game has zero punishments for dying in pvp, true. However it is wasting my time, interrupting my game, and generally being a pointless annoyance for me. Because someone wanted to kill another player who wasn't pvping and completely ignoring them I have to go back through pvp territory to get back to where I was to collect the shard. Possibly getting killed again by a pvper, or by the critters and npc enemies on the way. It isn't "the end of the world", but it isn't something that I want forced on me when I have no interest in it.

Obviously your opinion is different.

You basically don't want to ever have any setbacks ever. Most games don't work that way.

No, you're wrong.

I don't care about setbacks, deaths, or equipment deterioration when it happens as part of the game mechanics. I was attempting a quest 5 levels over where I was, and I died enough times to have a 1124 gold repair bill for my gear at the end of it, but I was bound and determined to get through the quest. And I did. Leveled up because of finishing it, actually.

What I don't want to have is setbacks caused by someone "who just wants to murder people". Or who goes out intending to kill as many players as possible, whether or not those players want to pvp. Your idea of fun isn't the same as mine. The justice system isn't supposed to conform to your idea of fun. If they ever start open world pvp, I'd quit the game because I want to play the game, not get killed by people who aren't playing the game, just running around murdering people.

Again, you do understand that the justice system is opt-in, right? I mean, that has to have been made clear by now...

Yes, I do.

I also understand that there are still people who want the justice system to mean open world pvp kill anyone anywhere any time. Or hasn't that been show clearly by now? People don't understand that their idea of fun, attacking/murdering players who don't want to pvp, is not fun for the players getting killed when they didn't opt in.

But it isn't going to be, so why are you worrying about that.

I would love open world pvp, but I am just as happy with the proposed system. The important thing for me is a personal sense of danger. A risk that is constant.

The stupid part about this is that I like both pvp and pve. I like experiencing a game fully because it makes it more fun for me.

If you are put out by the sole fact that I am enjoying the game in a different way that will not impact you at all, that is on you.

kassandratheclericb14_ESO · August 2014

@Anastasia‌
[/quote]

Its already been established that quest NPC's won't be affected by the Justice System.

[/quote]

Can you link that as I have hear conflicting things. I read somewhere that bankers and folks like this could be attacked and they would "respond" but they can not be killed. I would like to know which it is as that could be an issue if the "responding" closes the bank window all the time.

It seems they would not allow this but I would like to see a link on it if anyone has it? Thank you!

Chubbaz · August 2014

It's a time of war, no area should be safe especially the border zones. I'm all for it because I believe it would add immersion and other RP opportunities such as guards and mercs, also I think it would be quite humorous to attack other players when they're trying to kill bosses.

Besides, you might even make a rival or two in an enemy faction.

TehMagnus · August 2014

Chubbaz wrote: »

It's a time of war, no area should be safe especially the border zones. I'm all for it because I believe it would add immersion and other RP opportunities such as guards and mercs, also I think it would be quite humorous to attack other players when they're trying to kill bosses.

Besides, you might even make a rival or two in an enemy faction.

Yes, I would definitively like to see border areas between factions where you can encounter players from the other faction and engage either in some sort of PVP or join forces to fight PVE content.

smeeprocketnub19_ESO · August 2014

Rift has this, contested areas, and it works very well.

And yes there are plenty of max level players looking for easy kills, but it's not the end of the world. You move on, or bring more people to take them out so you can complete your quests.

TehMagnus · August 2014

smeeprocketnub19_ESO wrote: »

Rift has this, contested areas, and it works very well.

And yes there are plenty of max level players looking for easy kills, but it's not the end of the world. You move on, or bring more people to take them out so you can complete your quests.

But, that would imply challenge & talking to other people

AVCN · August 2014

Why not limited PvP events within certain areas of the PvE world?

It would not be something actually unheard or extraordinary within the game, since there are NPC enemy forces at all maps. Just make portals or a ship bringing players to invade and pilleage. Players from the invaded alliance would have to gather and fight back the enemy, but only if they wanted. Players from the invading alliance would have to enter the portal or ship.Don't want to be a part of it? Just avoid that area during the event or don't enter the portal or board the ship.

The game system would sent a message warning both sides about the events; those willing to be a part of it would go to the portals/ship or the invaded area. As rewards, temporary boosts on some skills.

Welka · August 2014

I have a better idea. Let's make PVP in PVE zones contextual and dynamic so it only happens when you steal/kill and get caught by a guard when you have a certain amount of bounty. That would be awesome!

smeeprocketnub19_ESO · August 2014

AVCN wrote: »

Why not limited PvP events within certain areas of the PvE world?

It would not be something actually unheard or extraordinary within the game, since there are NPC enemy forces at all maps. Just make portals or a ship bringing players to invade and pilleage. Players from the invaded alliance would have to gather and fight back the enemy, but only if they wanted. Players from the invading alliance would have to enter the portal or ship.Don't want to be a part of it? Just avoid that area during the event or don't enter the portal or board the ship.

The game system would sent a message warning both sides about the events; those willing to be a part of it would go to the portals/ship or the invaded area. As rewards, temporary boosts on some skills.

this would honestly detract from cyrodiil. AvAvA should probably be restricted to there, as much as I love the bringing the fight to the enemy idea.

I would, however, participate if this was done.

TehMagnus · August 2014

smeeprocketnub19_ESO wrote: »

AVCN wrote: »

Why not limited PvP events within certain areas of the PvE world?

It would not be something actually unheard or extraordinary within the game, since there are NPC enemy forces at all maps. Just make portals or a ship bringing players to invade and pilleage. Players from the invaded alliance would have to gather and fight back the enemy, but only if they wanted. Players from the invading alliance would have to enter the portal or ship.Don't want to be a part of it? Just avoid that area during the event or don't enter the portal or board the ship.

The game system would sent a message warning both sides about the events; those willing to be a part of it would go to the portals/ship or the invaded area. As rewards, temporary boosts on some skills.

this would honestly detract from cyrodiil. AvAvA should probably be restricted to there, as much as I love the bringing the fight to the enemy idea.

I would, however, participate if this was done.

As long as it's temporary events, it's fine. If I remember well, Aion had some High level areas to which enemy factions could teleport to complete quests or fight other players, this didn't detract from the PVP area since (at least @ the begining) the portals wheren't that easy to find, respawn was a pain in the arse & portals wherent allways open.

Anyways, I do agree that it would be nice to have some kind of events where one alliance has a quest to do in the other alliance and players are called to arms to come defend the area. As long as it's not ALL the time, it should not detract Cyrodill players ^^.

JKorr · August 2014

smeeprocketnub19_ESO wrote: »

JKorr wrote: »

smeeprocketnub19_ESO wrote: »

JKorr wrote: »

smeeprocketnub19_ESO wrote: »

Haewk wrote: »

smeeprocketnub19_ESO wrote: »

MercyKilling wrote: »

Morgha_Kul wrote: »

If they get their fun by attacking people who don't want to play, well, that's not PvP anymore, that's griefing. I don't believe for a moment that all or even most PvPers want that.

Riiight. So say I want to go collect the skyshards that are in Cyrodiil. I don't want anything to do with the PvP going on there....do you really think /anyone/ is going to just let me walk on by?

Even if I don't resist and keep coming back?

No. To the PvP mindset, I'm just an easy mark. Someone to farm kills off of. This is why I haven't set foot in Cyrodiil since the beta weekends when we were supposed to test it.

but that wouldn't be griefing because you expressly entered a faction pvp zone.

Most of us don't care if you are an easy mark or not, you are the enemy, if it seems possible there is a chance of winning, a lot of us will try to kill you. We don't have deep internal discussions with ourselves about whether you entered to skyshard hunt or not. Even if I personally thought about that, I would still kill you because that is the risk you take being there.

However, why are you so afraid of dying? There's a lot of skyshards in cyrodiil. Well worth the crawl imo, not to mention a ton of awesome quests.

If you get killed you lose nothing. If you bring friends, ones that are good at escaping, you might have someone to rez you when the bad guy moves on. Or you might even team up and take said bad guy out.

Worst case scenario you have some horse riding ahead of you. Where does this fear and/or contempt come from?

And you completely missed the point.

Argument:
If they get their fun by attacking people who don't want to play, well, that's not PvP anymore, that's griefing. I don't believe for a moment that all or even most PvPers want that.

Counter:
Someone enters Cyrodiil to get the skyshards, not to PvP. They do not engage anyone, they do not fight back. Yet they are attacked because they can be attacked.

People are not *afraid* of being killed in PvP, this is just your own opinions and speculation and has in fact little to do with it. It has a lot more to do with being annoyed at being forced into PvP when you have no intention of PvPing and then having your time wasted by other players and their playstyle which is completely different from yours. And most PvEers don't like their characters being killed, who does? The point of the game to a large extent is not to die.

You are in a pvp zone, the entire purpose of the zone is pvp, and the pve exists to facilitate that in different ways. When in Rome, do as the Romans. Of course they are attacked because they can be attacked because that is why most people are there.

The game has zero punishments for dying to another player. I think we all don't like to die, but having it happen shouldn't be the end of the world either or you take things too seriously.

That seems to be the difference; I don't attack anyone unless they are attacking me. Running up to a person who is ignoring my character and attacking them is something I wouldn't do.

If I would be in a group attacking or defending a keep/farm/resource that would be a different circumstance. That is clearly pvp and I wouldn't expect anything different. If I'm alone or with one friend going after a skyshard, I don't bother to fight with anyone who didn't start it first. In fact I've done that, collecting shards in Cyrodiil. The only ones who got killed were the npc bandits in the mine/dungeon/delve.

The game has zero punishments for dying in pvp, true. However it is wasting my time, interrupting my game, and generally being a pointless annoyance for me. Because someone wanted to kill another player who wasn't pvping and completely ignoring them I have to go back through pvp territory to get back to where I was to collect the shard. Possibly getting killed again by a pvper, or by the critters and npc enemies on the way. It isn't "the end of the world", but it isn't something that I want forced on me when I have no interest in it.

Obviously your opinion is different.

You basically don't want to ever have any setbacks ever. Most games don't work that way.

No, you're wrong.

I don't care about setbacks, deaths, or equipment deterioration when it happens as part of the game mechanics. I was attempting a quest 5 levels over where I was, and I died enough times to have a 1124 gold repair bill for my gear at the end of it, but I was bound and determined to get through the quest. And I did. Leveled up because of finishing it, actually.

What I don't want to have is setbacks caused by someone "who just wants to murder people". Or who goes out intending to kill as many players as possible, whether or not those players want to pvp. Your idea of fun isn't the same as mine. The justice system isn't supposed to conform to your idea of fun. If they ever start open world pvp, I'd quit the game because I want to play the game, not get killed by people who aren't playing the game, just running around murdering people.

except that you were making this complaint about going into a pvp zone. Which is what I was responding to. In said zone, I am in the right to kill you at will, as that is how it is designed.

BTW, I used to grief the hell out of hardcore griefers in the other games I played. I was dogged, and even when I couldn't detect their location, I was able to track them down and kill them repeatedly to prevent them from griefing other players. That doesn't mean I didn't kill people who were mortal enemies, pvp'rs or pve'rs (the game was open world pvp with very complex rules.)

You do realize that I wasn't complaining about getting killed in a pvp zone, right? I've never complained about getting killed in a pvp zone that I went to because I wanted to. I've said that I don't enjoy getting killed when I'm not attacking anyone in the pvp zone, not that it is unfair for someone to kill me. I've been in Cyrodiil and been killed many times, and it isn't a problem. It is not my idea of fun though, and if I had to do nothing but pvp I'd have never bothered with this game at all. I don't enjoy killing players who aren't attacking me. Obviously that is fun for some players.

That, however, isn't what the thread is about. Unless the justice system is only supposed to be in effect in Cyrodiil, that is. People are attempting to see the justice system as a way to pvp players who haven't opted in and don't want to pvp IN PVE FACTION ZONES. Not in Cyrodiil. Despite the official comments about not having open world pvp people are still attempting to find ways to make the justice system owpvp.

Being able to be killed when I'm in a pve zone, doing pve quests, by someone in my own faction because of the justice system would be an issue for me.

AVCN · August 2014

The idea would be a temporary event. It could be monthly, every 15 days or just random. For how long? Say, one day. Or a weekend event. You are drinking at a tavern in Riften, and then "Hear ye, hear ye! Commander Can't-Remember-His-Name opened portals to Aldmeri Lands! All able hands are asked to volunteer and bring the fight to their homes!" Or you are warned about an invasion. Heck, one could even set objectives - keep a given area free of enemies for X hours, protect a relic.

I believe diversity and surprises are welcome. Logging in without knowing exactly what I am going to find even in areas I already explored is something personally I would like. Sure, as long as it doesn't cripple quests.

Gasgiant · August 2014

There seems to be a lot of... passion... on both sides of the argument. But in the over 20 pages this thread has become, and likely 30 or more in the following days. There are a couple things that I have floating around in my head.

1) The idea of there being a PvP/Pve option for the Justice system. Outside of coding concerns and possible delays on the developer side of things, I honestly can't fathom how one player's choice on the level of player interaction/consequence would have a dramatic, if any, impact on those players that do.

2) It seems that a lot of the drama comes from the fact that we just don't know how the system will work exactly, and where the thresholds for PvP will be. In addition will only NPC guards be able to detect crimes or will player guards be able to detect them as well. That has never been addressed by the developers yet and, I think, leads to some of the speculation. That said if a player guard could detect crime, but not go into direct PvP until the threshold was met for flagging, then what powers and actions would said guard have until that point is reached? These are all excellent questions that I hope are addressed by the developers before too long.

3) Some of this admittedly could go in 2, but I thought it was getting too big. And this section requires a bit of speculation on game play so ignore it if you want. That said, will player guards always be kill-able? As in, are you immediately flagged for PvP as soon as you decide to become a guard? Who has the option of getting the first strike in? That first attack can often be the difference between victory and defeat. If player guards can detect crime, what is to stop them from just camping a known theft or assassination target? With the limited nature of how stealth works in this game, all things being equal, all a guard would have to do is make sure the object or NPC that is the victim is in his or her line of sight and close enough. The converse of that being that if Guards were always flagged then the enterprising criminal just has to assassinate the guard before the target. It is basically a pendulum of who should be able to strike first, and what abilities either side has until that point is reached. Again we don't know.

4) And the last thing, frankly, is more of a pet peeve of mine more than anything. Are the people who would like to diminish another player's experience because he or she does not want to have the same level of risk/reward that they do. It seems to me like a lack of empathy on their part, and a lack of tact or decorum to attribute that to an entire group. This is, after all, a game. This is not real life. In fact many people play these games, even casually, as a level of escape-ism. For an hour a day or a couple hours a week, they want to be a daring thief, a noble knight, or a spell-slinging mage; not a teacher, an accountant, or a construction worker. That is why a lot of games have easy, normal, and hard.

smeeprocketnub19_ESO · August 2014

JKorr wrote: »

smeeprocketnub19_ESO wrote: »

JKorr wrote: »

smeeprocketnub19_ESO wrote: »

JKorr wrote: »

smeeprocketnub19_ESO wrote: »

Haewk wrote: »

smeeprocketnub19_ESO wrote: »

MercyKilling wrote: »

Morgha_Kul wrote: »

If they get their fun by attacking people who don't want to play, well, that's not PvP anymore, that's griefing. I don't believe for a moment that all or even most PvPers want that.

Riiight. So say I want to go collect the skyshards that are in Cyrodiil. I don't want anything to do with the PvP going on there....do you really think /anyone/ is going to just let me walk on by?

Even if I don't resist and keep coming back?

No. To the PvP mindset, I'm just an easy mark. Someone to farm kills off of. This is why I haven't set foot in Cyrodiil since the beta weekends when we were supposed to test it.

but that wouldn't be griefing because you expressly entered a faction pvp zone.

Most of us don't care if you are an easy mark or not, you are the enemy, if it seems possible there is a chance of winning, a lot of us will try to kill you. We don't have deep internal discussions with ourselves about whether you entered to skyshard hunt or not. Even if I personally thought about that, I would still kill you because that is the risk you take being there.

However, why are you so afraid of dying? There's a lot of skyshards in cyrodiil. Well worth the crawl imo, not to mention a ton of awesome quests.

If you get killed you lose nothing. If you bring friends, ones that are good at escaping, you might have someone to rez you when the bad guy moves on. Or you might even team up and take said bad guy out.

Worst case scenario you have some horse riding ahead of you. Where does this fear and/or contempt come from?

And you completely missed the point.

Argument:
If they get their fun by attacking people who don't want to play, well, that's not PvP anymore, that's griefing. I don't believe for a moment that all or even most PvPers want that.

Counter:
Someone enters Cyrodiil to get the skyshards, not to PvP. They do not engage anyone, they do not fight back. Yet they are attacked because they can be attacked.

People are not *afraid* of being killed in PvP, this is just your own opinions and speculation and has in fact little to do with it. It has a lot more to do with being annoyed at being forced into PvP when you have no intention of PvPing and then having your time wasted by other players and their playstyle which is completely different from yours. And most PvEers don't like their characters being killed, who does? The point of the game to a large extent is not to die.

You are in a pvp zone, the entire purpose of the zone is pvp, and the pve exists to facilitate that in different ways. When in Rome, do as the Romans. Of course they are attacked because they can be attacked because that is why most people are there.

The game has zero punishments for dying to another player. I think we all don't like to die, but having it happen shouldn't be the end of the world either or you take things too seriously.

That seems to be the difference; I don't attack anyone unless they are attacking me. Running up to a person who is ignoring my character and attacking them is something I wouldn't do.

If I would be in a group attacking or defending a keep/farm/resource that would be a different circumstance. That is clearly pvp and I wouldn't expect anything different. If I'm alone or with one friend going after a skyshard, I don't bother to fight with anyone who didn't start it first. In fact I've done that, collecting shards in Cyrodiil. The only ones who got killed were the npc bandits in the mine/dungeon/delve.

The game has zero punishments for dying in pvp, true. However it is wasting my time, interrupting my game, and generally being a pointless annoyance for me. Because someone wanted to kill another player who wasn't pvping and completely ignoring them I have to go back through pvp territory to get back to where I was to collect the shard. Possibly getting killed again by a pvper, or by the critters and npc enemies on the way. It isn't "the end of the world", but it isn't something that I want forced on me when I have no interest in it.

Obviously your opinion is different.

You basically don't want to ever have any setbacks ever. Most games don't work that way.

No, you're wrong.

I don't care about setbacks, deaths, or equipment deterioration when it happens as part of the game mechanics. I was attempting a quest 5 levels over where I was, and I died enough times to have a 1124 gold repair bill for my gear at the end of it, but I was bound and determined to get through the quest. And I did. Leveled up because of finishing it, actually.

What I don't want to have is setbacks caused by someone "who just wants to murder people". Or who goes out intending to kill as many players as possible, whether or not those players want to pvp. Your idea of fun isn't the same as mine. The justice system isn't supposed to conform to your idea of fun. If they ever start open world pvp, I'd quit the game because I want to play the game, not get killed by people who aren't playing the game, just running around murdering people.

except that you were making this complaint about going into a pvp zone. Which is what I was responding to. In said zone, I am in the right to kill you at will, as that is how it is designed.

BTW, I used to grief the hell out of hardcore griefers in the other games I played. I was dogged, and even when I couldn't detect their location, I was able to track them down and kill them repeatedly to prevent them from griefing other players. That doesn't mean I didn't kill people who were mortal enemies, pvp'rs or pve'rs (the game was open world pvp with very complex rules.)

You do realize that I wasn't complaining about getting killed in a pvp zone, right? I've never complained about getting killed in a pvp zone that I went to because I wanted to. I've said that I don't enjoy getting killed when I'm not attacking anyone in the pvp zone, not that it is unfair for someone to kill me. I've been in Cyrodiil and been killed many times, and it isn't a problem. It is not my idea of fun though, and if I had to do nothing but pvp I'd have never bothered with this game at all. I don't enjoy killing players who aren't attacking me. Obviously that is fun for some players.

That, however, isn't what the thread is about. Unless the justice system is only supposed to be in effect in Cyrodiil, that is. People are attempting to see the justice system as a way to pvp players who haven't opted in and don't want to pvp IN PVE FACTION ZONES. Not in Cyrodiil. Despite the official comments about not having open world pvp people are still attempting to find ways to make the justice system owpvp.

Being able to be killed when I'm in a pve zone, doing pve quests, by someone in my own faction because of the justice system would be an issue for me.

except, what you apparently haven't bothered to read, or see, (perhaps watch the quakecon video,) is that to get pvp'd, you have to flag yourself in some way. Be it by racking up a bounty and not paying it, or by becoming a guard.

The only people pvp'ing in your sacred pve zones will be people that choose to do so. While it might inconvenience them to get killed while questing, they have made an active decision to participate. Much like choosing to enter cyrodiil.
I suppose I should add something in all caps to make my point, but there is really nothing more to add. Don't like it, don't participate. No problem.

TehMagnus · August 2014

@smeeprocketnub19_ESO sadly your argument has been said over and over again and people don't care. They DONT WANT PVP IN PVE. All reflection, all argumentation begins and ends there, no matter what you say or explain to them.

smeeprocketnub19_ESO · August 2014

magnusnet wrote: »

@smeeprocketnub19_ESO sadly your argument has been said over and over again and people don't care. They DONT WANT PVP IN PVE. All reflection, all argumentation begins and ends there, no matter what you say or explain to them.

Well that's just trying to force others to play the way they want to play. No one is forcing them to pvp, so their opinion on if other people should be allowed to pvp is irrelevant.

Also, the endgame for this game, and the original intent, has always been pvp'd focused.

TehMagnus · August 2014

smeeprocketnub19_ESO wrote: »

magnusnet wrote: »

@smeeprocketnub19_ESO sadly your argument has been said over and over again and people don't care. They DONT WANT PVP IN PVE. All reflection, all argumentation begins and ends there, no matter what you say or explain to them.

Well that's just trying to force others to play the way they want to play. No one is forcing them to pvp, so their opinion on if other people should be allowed to pvp is irrelevant.

Also, the endgame for this game, and the original intent, has always been pvp'd focused.

"No, you are excluding me from participating in the justice system because I have to PVP to enjoy it" (AKA: Wants to keep farming containers).

"Of course end game is not PVP, this is a TES game, I want to keep playing it alone without being paranoïd that a mean griefer is gonna come out of nowhere and kill me" (AKA: Didn't understand he's playing an MMO).

Actually the real aim of this thread wasn't to discuss the justice system anyways, it was to discuss the possibility to implement some kind of open PVP areas (like High Level Areas) where players can engage eachtohers or even be merged with players from other alliances. I'd love to see a zone where AD, DC and EP can travel to and meet, duel, fight (with limitations ofc to avoid griefers). There are many potential great things to be done.

At the very least, I'd love to have a dueling system to fight buddies while we wait for groups to be formed. No dueling inside places where you can't ride a horse and it should be fine

.

kingnerevar · August 2014

One of my favorite aspects about my previous mmo experience is ganking and getting ganked. I remember leveling alone and having to res and evade the enemy hunting me. If a particular enemy was camping me, I would just call up some buds and they were more than happy to come stomp a mud-hole in them for me. I believe it created a since of danger, made the game more challenging, and promoted friendships that would benefit each player. It allowed each player to get a taste of pvp wile exploring the world. As of now i don't see the downsides to dueling your friends at least. As far as the justice system goes, I think its a lot of work for something many won't care about a month after its been released.That's all, said my peace.

Anastasia · August 2014

kassandratheclericb14_ESO wrote: »

@Anastasia‌

Its already been established that quest NPC's won't be affected by the Justice System.

[/quote]

Can you link that as I have hear conflicting things. I read somewhere that bankers and folks like this could be attacked and they would "respond" but they can not be killed. I would like to know which it is as that could be an issue if the "responding" closes the bank window all the time.

It seems they would not allow this but I would like to see a link on it if anyone has it? Thank you![/quote]

Hi there kassandratheclericb -- here is one link that speaks to the point that some key npc's will be attackable,

smeeprocketnub19_ESO wrote: »

JKorr wrote: »

smeeprocketnub19_ESO wrote: »

JKorr wrote: »

smeeprocketnub19_ESO wrote: »

JKorr wrote: »

smeeprocketnub19_ESO wrote: »

Haewk wrote: »

smeeprocketnub19_ESO wrote: »

MercyKilling wrote: »

Morgha_Kul wrote: »

If they get their fun by attacking people who don't want to play, well, that's not PvP anymore, that's griefing. I don't believe for a moment that all or even most PvPers want that.

Riiight. So say I want to go collect the skyshards that are in Cyrodiil. I don't want anything to do with the PvP going on there....do you really think /anyone/ is going to just let me walk on by?

Even if I don't resist and keep coming back?

No. To the PvP mindset, I'm just an easy mark. Someone to farm kills off of. This is why I haven't set foot in Cyrodiil since the beta weekends when we were supposed to test it.

but that wouldn't be griefing because you expressly entered a faction pvp zone.

Most of us don't care if you are an easy mark or not, you are the enemy, if it seems possible there is a chance of winning, a lot of us will try to kill you. We don't have deep internal discussions with ourselves about whether you entered to skyshard hunt or not. Even if I personally thought about that, I would still kill you because that is the risk you take being there.

However, why are you so afraid of dying? There's a lot of skyshards in cyrodiil. Well worth the crawl imo, not to mention a ton of awesome quests.

If you get killed you lose nothing. If you bring friends, ones that are good at escaping, you might have someone to rez you when the bad guy moves on. Or you might even team up and take said bad guy out.

Worst case scenario you have some horse riding ahead of you. Where does this fear and/or contempt come from?

And you completely missed the point.

Argument:
If they get their fun by attacking people who don't want to play, well, that's not PvP anymore, that's griefing. I don't believe for a moment that all or even most PvPers want that.

Counter:
Someone enters Cyrodiil to get the skyshards, not to PvP. They do not engage anyone, they do not fight back. Yet they are attacked because they can be attacked.

People are not *afraid* of being killed in PvP, this is just your own opinions and speculation and has in fact little to do with it. It has a lot more to do with being annoyed at being forced into PvP when you have no intention of PvPing and then having your time wasted by other players and their playstyle which is completely different from yours. And most PvEers don't like their characters being killed, who does? The point of the game to a large extent is not to die.

You are in a pvp zone, the entire purpose of the zone is pvp, and the pve exists to facilitate that in different ways. When in Rome, do as the Romans. Of course they are attacked because they can be attacked because that is why most people are there.

The game has zero punishments for dying to another player. I think we all don't like to die, but having it happen shouldn't be the end of the world either or you take things too seriously.

That seems to be the difference; I don't attack anyone unless they are attacking me. Running up to a person who is ignoring my character and attacking them is something I wouldn't do.

If I would be in a group attacking or defending a keep/farm/resource that would be a different circumstance. That is clearly pvp and I wouldn't expect anything different. If I'm alone or with one friend going after a skyshard, I don't bother to fight with anyone who didn't start it first. In fact I've done that, collecting shards in Cyrodiil. The only ones who got killed were the npc bandits in the mine/dungeon/delve.

The game has zero punishments for dying in pvp, true. However it is wasting my time, interrupting my game, and generally being a pointless annoyance for me. Because someone wanted to kill another player who wasn't pvping and completely ignoring them I have to go back through pvp territory to get back to where I was to collect the shard. Possibly getting killed again by a pvper, or by the critters and npc enemies on the way. It isn't "the end of the world", but it isn't something that I want forced on me when I have no interest in it.

Obviously your opinion is different.

You basically don't want to ever have any setbacks ever. Most games don't work that way.

No, you're wrong.

I don't care about setbacks, deaths, or equipment deterioration when it happens as part of the game mechanics. I was attempting a quest 5 levels over where I was, and I died enough times to have a 1124 gold repair bill for my gear at the end of it, but I was bound and determined to get through the quest. And I did. Leveled up because of finishing it, actually.

What I don't want to have is setbacks caused by someone "who just wants to murder people". Or who goes out intending to kill as many players as possible, whether or not those players want to pvp. Your idea of fun isn't the same as mine. The justice system isn't supposed to conform to your idea of fun. If they ever start open world pvp, I'd quit the game because I want to play the game, not get killed by people who aren't playing the game, just running around murdering people.

except that you were making this complaint about going into a pvp zone. Which is what I was responding to. In said zone, I am in the right to kill you at will, as that is how it is designed.

BTW, I used to grief the hell out of hardcore griefers in the other games I played. I was dogged, and even when I couldn't detect their location, I was able to track them down and kill them repeatedly to prevent them from griefing other players. That doesn't mean I didn't kill people who were mortal enemies, pvp'rs or pve'rs (the game was open world pvp with very complex rules.)

You do realize that I wasn't complaining about getting killed in a pvp zone, right? I've never complained about getting killed in a pvp zone that I went to because I wanted to. I've said that I don't enjoy getting killed when I'm not attacking anyone in the pvp zone, not that it is unfair for someone to kill me. I've been in Cyrodiil and been killed many times, and it isn't a problem. It is not my idea of fun though, and if I had to do nothing but pvp I'd have never bothered with this game at all. I don't enjoy killing players who aren't attacking me. Obviously that is fun for some players.

That, however, isn't what the thread is about. Unless the justice system is only supposed to be in effect in Cyrodiil, that is. People are attempting to see the justice system as a way to pvp players who haven't opted in and don't want to pvp IN PVE FACTION ZONES. Not in Cyrodiil. Despite the official comments about not having open world pvp people are still attempting to find ways to make the justice system owpvp.

Being able to be killed when I'm in a pve zone, doing pve quests, by someone in my own faction because of the justice system would be an issue for me.

except, what you apparently haven't bothered to read, or see, (perhaps watch the quakecon video,) is that to get pvp'd, you have to flag yourself in some way. Be it by racking up a bounty and not paying it, or by becoming a guard.

The only people pvp'ing in your sacred pve zones will be people that choose to do so. While it might inconvenience them to get killed while questing, they have made an active decision to participate. Much like choosing to enter cyrodiil.
I suppose I should add something in all caps to make my point, but there is really nothing more to add. Don't like it, don't participate. No problem.

Heh - don't you see though? They want to PARTICIPATE, but they do NOT want consequences. And if what they are asking is not accomodated, then that to them means they are being prevented from GETTING to participate.

0-o

TehMagnus · August 2014

kingnerevar wrote: »

One of my favorite aspects about my previous mmo experience is ganking and getting ganked. I remember leveling alone and having to res and evade the enemy hunting me. If a particular enemy was camping me, I would just call up some buds and they were more than happy to come stomp a mud-hole in them for me. I believe it created a since of danger, made the game more challenging, and promoted friendships that would benefit each player. It allowed each player to get a taste of pvp wile exploring the world. As of now i don't see the downsides to dueling your friends at least. As far as the justice system goes, I think its a lot of work for something many won't care about a month after its been released.That's all, said my peace.

Totally agree. MMOs used to be an adventure...

Nox_Aeterna · August 2014

smeeprocketnub19_ESO wrote: »

magnusnet wrote: »

@smeeprocketnub19_ESO sadly your argument has been said over and over again and people don't care. They DONT WANT PVP IN PVE. All reflection, all argumentation begins and ends there, no matter what you say or explain to them.

Well that's just trying to force others to play the way they want to play. No one is forcing them to pvp, so their opinion on if other people should be allowed to pvp is irrelevant.

Also, the endgame for this game, and the original intent, has always been pvp'd focused.

This is funny , i can do this also.

I now proclaim that you opinion is irrelevant.

Nice.

Did it change something? Oh wait ... guess not.

In the end they are players just like you mate , there was a thread about open world pvp , the majority said they would rather quit than a play a game with this :P.

Also , please link the dev post saying that the original intent for end game was PvP? Which apparently changed quite fast anyway since they rush craglorn out :P.