Veteran System Changes Preview

Gillysan

(I know I'm late posting here, but the World Cup happened )
I don't think difficult and/or group content vs easy solo content was ever the issue. I think the problem is the lack of a mix, which is a problem I have seen in almost every MMO I have played in the last 15 years. The perfect ratio I'm not sure about, but for the sake of this example let's say 2/3 solo content and 1/3 difficult content. That is what L1 - 50 needed and that is what is needed post 50. Maybe lean it more to difficult 50+, but a mix instead of all in on one side of the equation or the other.

Another idea I throw out in every MMO but never even gets a response but I will always keep trying: a difficulty setting at character creation with some nice achievements for playing through the levels this way. Solo games of all types have this, going back to the '80s I daresay, I don't understand why MMO's can't get this.

I have some other concerns but I'll wait to see more posts about going forward with the 50+ experience before commenting.

However, I don't want to sound all negative so I'll also state I'm glad to see the games continued evolution.

Gillysan

Well all the arguing in the previous few pages only reaffirms to me that MMO's need an individualized difficulty setting. Not just for the hardcore but also the self professed casuals. Although I think the achievements should be for those who decide to make it harder hehe.

I find the mercenary hireling idea pretty cool too.

fromtesonlineb16_ESO

Gillysan wrote: »

Well all the arguing in the previous few pages only reaffirms to me that MMO's need an individualized difficulty setting. Not just for the hardcore but also the self professed casuals. Although I think the achievements should be for those who decide to make it harder hehe.

As long as achievements aren't used as content locks the IDC about them so you'd be welcome to any you got, if you're so sad you need something like that to feel good about yourself.

Maverick827

Has anything been said about increasing the viability of leveling quests? As it stands, questing is by far the slowest way to level. I don't want the various grinds to be nerfed, but getting 40k veteran XP every 10 minutes of questing is nowhere near getting 20k every minute with boss kills.

nagarjunna

Gillysan wrote: »

Another idea I throw out in every MMO but never even gets a response but I will always keep trying: a difficulty setting at character creation with some nice achievements for playing through the levels this way. Solo games of all types have this, going back to the '80s I daresay, I don't understand why MMO's can't get this.

Oooh! Rogue setting - you have only one life. You die? Start a new character. No wayshrines... no respec... what you see is what you get.

Like!

Blinks

yeah thats fine but please be carefully and dont make it too easy.

bruceb14_ESO5

I didn't read all of the pages here, just noticed the thread, but I LIKE the new changes to the Vet Zones. My main is VR12, but I've been going in to get skyshards and do some dungeons for skill points. It is much easier to do, although I was able to before as well. It seems like there are more treasure chests around also. The extra white pieces even are sometimes helpful for crafting research, thanks. I'm catching a few more set piece drops.

The changes, rewards, even not counting xp are much better adding to my enjoyment of hanging out in the vet zones. Leveling an alt through Vet levels looks more appealing now than before.

Grim13

Zeni, could you please make it so the skill points I acquired applied account-wide so I won't have to suffer through the same quests with a new character to level it up!?

I enjoyed them the first time through, sure,... but I'd like to try a different class and am finding that I cannot bring myself to do it all over again.

olsborg

God I hope there wont be more veteran ranks added. I want to feel I dont have to be afraid of having to grind more and redo my armor again. I want to be comfortable at my current rank 12 and focus on expanding my character in other ways.

nulleos

My biggest concern is, are veteran dungeons intended to be as difficult as they are? If a group understands the fights there is no reason they should be wiping 10 times on a boss and ultimately giving up. How can a trash mob hit me for 2k with an ability when I only have 1600 health? Plus this one mob is in pack with 7 other mobs that also hit very hard. Veteran dungeons need a lot of work as the current difficulty is discouraging.

If trash mobs or boss adds did less dmg in veteran dungeons the dungeons might be more enjoyable. The way the game is with the tank not being able to hold aggro on everything means that in fights with multiple targets you cannot have said targets doing ridiculous amounts of dmg because it is nearly impossible for a squishy group member to live through it.

Cogo

Grim13 wrote: »

Zeni, could you please make it so the skill points I acquired applied account-wide so I won't have to suffer through the same quests with a new character to level it up!?

I enjoyed them the first time through, sure,... but I'd like to try a different class and am finding that I cannot bring myself to do it all over again.

Why the hell should skill points be account wide?

It would totally take away the enjoyment of playing a new char. I just started one, but if skill points was account wide, I would not play an alt. Feels like cheating.

Universe

I didn't read all the comments in this discussion, so some or all of what I'm writing may already being discussed multiple times.
I think the veteran content system is not rewarding.
I have few ideas about how to improve the system.
The leveling through the quest chain in the 3 Alliances+adventure zone/s is intriguing and somewhat challenging but in order to satisfy all players, a suitable PVP option and adequate reward must be presented.
The AvA - Cyrodiil game play needs to be expanded in both pvp, pve and roleplay:
1)Quests:More quests with a reasonable background with ties to both RP in relation to rank-responsibility and to the Imperial City.
2)RP - veteran players achieve different status by gaining veteran levels and Alliance points.
This status needs to be rewarding and to distinguish them from low level players or low level veteran players.
The status itself may be subject to different campaign types.
For example, a player achieve a status of "Lord commander"(just an example) by being veteran 10 and having 300,000 Alliance points.(only 7/14 day campaigns).
The "Lord commander" status needs to have more meaning by granting a player physical benefits such as owning a house/fort(housing) or gaining special skill line.
I know that no housing has been introduced into the game by this time but it might be relevant in the future, when it will become available.
The status itself includes a title and a former title.
The housing remain active even after the campaign ends and the active title has been changed to former("former Lord commander").
3)PVE- A player who achieved veteran rank 12 and the rank of Tribune within a campaign may enter unique group dungeons/trials which may be far more rewarding than normal dungeon/trial.
This may attract more players to play in Cyrodiil in different campaigns and thus increase the current dwindling population.
4)PVP- A veteran rank 12 players who achieved one of the highest ranks within their alliance may have a non game changing npc companion which will act as their personal guard. The companion will be balanced so it won't be too OP(per campaign).
I have many other ideas but I believe that it be will wrong to add more to this already TLDR post. If my post can be transferred to a more suitable place for ideas, please notify me.

Silverminken

I'm very solo-questing player, when they made the VR zones alot easier to play, I had only 3 zones left for Caldwell's Gold, my experience before, was, it is hard, large groups of dangerous mobs, and their bosses was not as terrifying, as their minions! Many times it was harder to get to the bosses than to actual fight the boss!

After the nerfing of VR content. I sailed throught the last 3 zones in less time that I spent on doing a single VR zone before! And the only time I needed help, was basically half the world bosses! where we needed to be TWO! The Public dungeons , sometimes required help, but most of the time, they where doable.

Now the bosses got severly nuked, and now the mobs before the bosses where WAY more dangerous than they boss itself!
Most of the time, I could also do dolmens SOLO! how messed up isn't that?

And when I played my next character get into VR zones, I only did Cadwell's Silver, and let me say that despite only having VR1 gear and a VR2 character, I had very little problem completing all the quest for Cadwell's Silver, so in the last zone, I was still only VR2, and faced VR5 mobs and bosses without any problems!



I have not played the main questline since the nerfing took place, but there was one of the hardest parts in the game, since these quests where solo only and where severly harder than anything else you had faced, I remember the two encounters we had with Mannimarco as really hard fights! Now I hear my friend talk about I went in with low level gear and half broken gear and sailed throught the boss fight with ease in the main quest!


So my take on things is that it is way to easy now in solo content...

I have done all the quest achievements and collected all the skyshards, done of the dungeons and public dungeons, most of these SOLO!

I have done most of the normal level group dungeons solo as well.

I know that I might not be the typical solo-player, but I do agree that VR zones before was a bit to hard and everytime I got to a new zone, I hit the "wall" of my current skill and I had to adapt new ways to fight! And I do get that it was a way to encourage people to play together in small groups 2-3 players.



So I have done all the "Solo" content, and starts to look at the group dungeons in VR-level, and WHOA! what happened? no nerfing here, it is hard, and most part I find the so familiar "wall" from the VR-zones... but now it is not just me, I have 3 other players that need to adapt and overcome this... So kindergarten in VR-exploration, and poke you with a fingerstick in group content! YAY! I'm really not looking forward for anything at the moment. I could still play my remaining 5 character to VR level, but why? there is no challenge, it is just a matter of time... there is no real challenge.
Or I can go to do PvP, YIKES, campaing is full... so I should play with my friends that live in a full campaign! so no PvP... I have one home and guest, and now I am not allowed to change for 3 days! Thanks for that! or just sit and wait for an empty slot...

Group content then, and Craglorn...where you could try to group up with 11 other players and try any of the two trails? Wow, that fun, barely passed first boss, and then stuck on 2nd... Yup, you truly made VR content ACCESSIBLE for the "rest" of us"! So where does that leave the casual players?

VR group dungeons, alot higher requirements compared to the VR-zones.
VR-trails unless you have know a good group to join, your own learning-curve will be very steep, since there are 11 OTHER people that need to learn and coordinate!


So comes next?

Making Craglorna and VR dungeons/trails "easier" to care to the casual player? you have already nuked the normal and VR exploration in terms of difficulty.



You have only moved the skill "wall".

Laplace

If and when the Veteran System is scrapped in favor of the Champion System, will we be still be able to get the Golden Saint, Seducer, and Mannimarco Costumes?

Veshal

@ZOS_JessicaFolsom‌ If the devs haven't given this thought, several of my guild was wondering. If you have multiple VR+ characters at the time of change would you benafit from more champion points/rank at the start of this system? If it hasn't been talked about, I'd like to heavily advocate it from Elderblade (Aldmeri Dominon) on the US server.

ZOS_JessicaFolsom

Thanks for sharing your thoughts, concerns, and questions with us, everyone. We're working on gathering answers for you, and providing more details about the VR rank increase and will post everything early next week.

Braddass

gotta love game design mentality: "we acknowledge the VR system is bad and need reworking ... so we are giving you more of the same next patch"

Dagoth_Rac

Braddass wrote: »

gotta love game design mentality: "we acknowledge the VR system is bad and need reworking ... so we are giving you more of the same next patch"

Huh? They don't throw content updates together over a Thursday afternoon coffee break. It is probably close to a year between conception and release and utilizes dozens of people across multiple departments. Upper Craglorn was likely finished, internally, before anyone had even reached VR10 in the game! Let alone complained that they did not like VR levels. Recoding and redesigning Upper Craglorn to not be VR14 would likely have required time and resources that they would rather devote to working on the Champion System.

Cogo

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

Thanks for sharing your thoughts, concerns, and questions with us, everyone. We're working on gathering answers for you, and providing more details about the VR rank increase and will post everything early next week.

After talking to a lot of players, in game. (EU guilds have their own little communities). Most people seam to hope the Champion system is done well, and will not break when spell crafting gets introduced.

Also, there is a concern about making things to easy. Some things like Vet Dungeons are still a challenge, but like the main quest "important fights", to not spoil anything, they have been nerfed to much.

Vet content is not TOO easy, but there is a concern that its going to be even easier. At least make Dolmens, zone bosses not soloable. When a dolmen or boss is up, it normally gets announced in zonechat. And waiting for players to arrive, which they do! Is very cool! And a good way to interact because of the great feature that all who helps, even if they are not grouped, gets rewarded!
If this gets even easier, then the public grouping that IS going on, will get reduced.

Do not be afraid to have these events challenging. Players do not mind if they are a bit hard. If someone wants to solo these......I am sorry, but is that really intended?

Last week, I entered Graglorn with a guild group. Vet 2-7. We did very well. But exp was huuuuuuge. Why? Either make it harder, or lower the exp.

Most players do not mind that gaining exp takes a while. EQ AA system proved that by working for YEARS with the same system, without players complaining about lack of exp. Players complains when there is nothing left to do......All players do that. Not just the Vet 12 speed players.

Vet 14 is a great idea. Giving our vet12 a reason to "do" things while we await the Champion system.

The arenas will be hard. I am sure of that. But do not make only "new" content challenging. Quite a few do enjoy even starting an alt and doing a new path, since ESO now can be called "stable".

Docmandu

Cogo wrote: »

Most *PVE* players do not mind that gaining exp takes a while

There... fixed that for you. ... and even then I doubt it's really true.

Laplace

@ZOS_JessicaFolsom, will we still be able to get the disguises associated with VR ranks? Those who haven't received them yet would hate to miss out on those.

Helwyr

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

Thanks for sharing your thoughts, concerns, and questions with us, everyone. We're working on gathering answers for you, and providing more details about the VR rank increase and will post everything early next week.

Any update when we'll see these details? "Early next week" has officially come and gone.

Dominoid

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

Thanks for sharing your thoughts, concerns, and questions with us, everyone. We're working on gathering answers for you, and providing more details about the VR rank increase and will post everything early next week.

@ZOS_JessicaFolsom, curious if this is still coming. We're past early next week. ;-)

Sunrock

@ZOS_JessicaFolsom‌

I most say that I really like the veteran system in this game as it is today. And I really loved it before you nerfed the NPC damage in venteran zones. If this had not been in the game I would have quit playing this game after a week or two.

Doing the silver and gold main story lines was really fun and challenging before. And I tock my time to invest more in the story as it was not so mush keyboard face roll as 1-50 was where I most of the time just wanted to get all the quests out of the way ASAP as the NPC did not even try to kill me it felt like.

I think the main complaint about V1-12 is too mush of a grind is because the majority of players do grind it on 3 bosses in craglorn and then QQ about. Yes you can grind veteran exp 1000% faster in craglorn with a group of 12 players just farming the 3 bosses. But you do not have to do that if you don't want to.

But I understand way so few group up to do anything other then dungeons in this game and that is because if you try to do a quest with anyone in this game your a totally *** if you did not pickup the quest and did the entire quest chain to gather. And even if you did the game slapped you in the face and told you that "you cant do that in a group you idiot" most of the time by not updating the quest objectives for every one in the group. So if you fix that the questing areas would have been allot more fun to do in a group.

Helwyr

Sunrock wrote: »

I think the main complaint about V1-12 is too mush of a grind is because the majority of players do grind it on 3 bosses in craglorn and then QQ about. Yes you can grind veteran exp 1000% faster in craglorn with a group of 12 players just farming the 3 bosses. But you do not have to do that if you don't want to.

No, it's a grind because it's takes a long time and a lot of players unlike you do not enjoy that type of gameplay and do it only for the statistical advantage it gives them in PvP, which is the gameplay they actually enjoy.

glak

Sunrock wrote: »

@ZOS_JessicaFolsom‌
if you try to do a quest with anyone in this game your a totally *** if you did not pickup the quest and did the entire quest chain to gather. And even if you did the game slapped you in the face and told you that "you cant do that in a group you idiot" most of the time by not updating the quest objectives for every one in the group. So if you fix that the questing areas would have been allot more fun to do in a group.

They are working on removing most of this barrier to grouping by reducing the amount of quest phasing and trying to put you in the same phase as your group leader if you're just helping out.

Parsifal

My only complaint about the veteran system is the grinding aspect of it. With Craglorn, players are able to make 1-1.5m experience an hour by repeatedly farming map bosses. By actually questing, experiencing the content, and reading the dialog, I only average around 200k experience per hour. That means that by actually playing the game, it will take me over 5x longer to reach the veteran cap than people who mindlessly grind to the top.

The main reason I see this as a problem is that it almost forces players to skip the content and just grind. You need to be either max or close to max rank to do trials and to be effective in PVP. So the players who want to do this content either slowly take their time questing and get there months after the rest of the player base, or they suck it up and grind in Craglorn for a week or two.

I think that the solution to this isn't to nerf the experience from grinding, but to increase the experience from quests/dungeons/PVP to similar rates. This will cause players to reach V12 before completing the 50+ and 50++ zones, but honestly the majority of players seem to be doing that already. Perhaps the veteran rank of map monsters could be adjusted as a result? This way, players will be able to effectively level up by actually participating in the game's content, rather than mindlessly killing the same boss over and over. I think that if grinding experience is just nerfed, there will be a lot of backlash from the community since it will suddenly take them much longer to level up.

rekina

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

Thanks for sharing your thoughts, concerns, and questions with us, everyone. We're working on gathering answers for you, and providing more details about the VR rank increase and will post everything early next week.

You said you will explain early next week on 22nd, and this is September 2nd. How come you not explained it yet?

Dekkameron

nulleos wrote: »

My biggest concern is, are veteran dungeons intended to be as difficult as they are? If a group understands the fights there is no reason they should be wiping 10 times on a boss and ultimately giving up. How can a trash mob hit me for 2k with an ability when I only have 1600 health? Plus this one mob is in pack with 7 other mobs that also hit very hard. Veteran dungeons need a lot of work as the current difficulty is discouraging.

If trash mobs or boss adds did less dmg in veteran dungeons the dungeons might be more enjoyable. The way the game is with the tank not being able to hold aggro on everything means that in fights with multiple targets you cannot have said targets doing ridiculous amounts of dmg because it is nearly impossible for a squishy group member to live through it.

How do you only have 1600 health in a vet dungeon? An average VR1 character normally has about 2200.

Reremnu

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

Thanks for sharing your thoughts, concerns, and questions with us, everyone. We're working on gathering answers for you, and providing more details about the VR rank increase and will post everything early next week.

So... where is it? Where is a post/whatever with more details?