Veteran System Changes Preview

Kulthax

Thank you for these changes. I was not an advocate for the change but I must say I am enjoying them. I do feel that I will role many alts and play through the content again, knowing that it will not be as tedious or time consuming as it has been.

Thank you!

ArRashid

Ehm, well, I expected something more, not lowered difficulty in first 2 vet zones.. If you're (like me) above VR3 already, it makes no *** difference... oh well, let's set up some more research and go back to playing whatever we play instead of ESO while we have ESO subbed..

fromtesonlineb16_ESO

ArRashid wrote: »

Ehm, well, I expected something more, not lowered difficulty in first 2 vet zones.

Er, first two vet zones? What are you talking about?

If you're referring to this:

We've lowered the difficulty of the second and third alliance zones

You've totally mis-read it.

Anneelia

Thank you for listening and making a difference.

Ffastyl

The rebalancing to veteran zone content has made enemies too easy relative to the challenge I have come to love and now lost. I have been discussing this change with my guild for the past few days, and we are split in regards to for and against, but one interesting idea came through the venting: a mercenary system.

Instead of lowering VR enemies' stats, AI companions are introduced to the game. As the name implies, they are NPC followers that can be purchased, at the Fighters Guild or Mages Guild, and help players in combat. These mercenaries have a one-time cost, like other items, and can die, unlike quest followers.

Depending on which guild you hire a mercenary from, they can fill the role of tank, dps, or healer, based on the various combatants that each of the guilds has to offer. Elemental mages and healers from the Mages Guild and various martial masters from the Fighters Guild.

These mercenaries are activated on purchase, actively following the player until death, preventing players from "stocking up" on mercenaries to keep a constant stream of NPC fodder to handle mobs for them. Of course, only one mercenary may be following a player at any given time. These mercenaries are also temporarily dismissed when the player groups up with another player, returning once the contractor returns to solo status, preventing mercenaries from being brought into group instances and used in place of players for other group intended content.

In regards to the strength of mercenaries, the power displayed by followers in VR quests is adequate. They have enough offense to not be dead weight, and enough HP to take some hits, but not powerful enough to handle fights on their own, doing the player's job. The player still has to fight, otherwise the mercenary will die. These mercenaries will be leveled to the player, if not the zone they were bought in. (Since some players, like myself, over-level)

I believe this system will prove a compromise between those who found post-50 content hard and those who found it just right. Restoring the stats and implementing this mercenary system will leave the challenge solo players like myself crave, and provide support for those having difficulty in the VR zones.

frwinters_ESO

I would not change veteran content any more than this less you plan on making new veteran zones to applo for better replayability with alts in other factions.

Ilterendi

Ffastyl wrote: »

The rebalancing to veteran zone content has made enemies too easy relative to the challenge I have come to love and now lost. I have been discussing this change with my guild for the past few days, and we are split in regards to for and against, but one interesting idea came through the venting: a mercenary system.

Instead of lowering VR enemies' stats, AI companions are introduced to the game. As the name implies, they are NPC followers that can be purchased, at the Fighters Guild or Mages Guild, and help players in combat. These mercenaries have a one-time cost, like other items, and can die, unlike quest followers.

Depending on which guild you hire a mercenary from, they can fill the role of tank, dps, or healer, based on the various combatants that each of the guilds has to offer. Elemental mages and healers from the Mages Guild and various martial masters from the Fighters Guild.

These mercenaries are activated on purchase, actively following the player until death, preventing players from "stocking up" on mercenaries to keep a constant stream of NPC fodder to handle mobs for them. Of course, only one mercenary may be following a player at any given time. These mercenaries are also temporarily dismissed when the player groups up with another player, returning once the contractor returns to solo status, preventing mercenaries from being brought into group instances and used in place of players for other group intended content.

In regards to the strength of mercenaries, the power displayed by followers in VR quests is adequate. They have enough offense to not be dead weight, and enough HP to take some hits, but not powerful enough to handle fights on their own, doing the player's job. The player still has to fight, otherwise the mercenary will die. These mercenaries will be leveled to the player, if not the zone they were bought in. (Since some players, like myself, over-level)

I believe this system will prove a compromise between those who found post-50 content hard and those who found it just right. Restoring the stats and implementing this mercenary system will leave the challenge solo players like myself crave, and provide support for those having difficulty in the VR zones.

I would have preferred balanced classes and melee (stamina) buffs than the "Easy Mode On" fix...

I guess ESO just maintains the norm and goes the easiest route and not the best.

Stalwart385

Great another MMO goes babycakes for the zerg.

People just don't understand the reward that comes with a challenge. They want VR12 NOW!

I went from focusing on my fights to gathering as many enemies as possible just to clear the area. No potions, food or thought necessary.

I made it through both the VR8 and VR9 zones yesterday. How does letting people hit VR12 easily help keep subs?

joeparadis_ESO

Denaia wrote: »

Thanks for the changes. I just wonder one thing

The game at level VR-7 has become groups of mobs 2-3 that are very difficult to progress through. I know that my Templar with heavy armor and using armor/spell resist abilities gets hit like he is wearing tissue paper by just one mob.

I'm able to kill 2-3 person vet11 mobs in craglorn with my poorly built DK. If I'm lucky I do 150-250 DPS and I'm still able to wittle them down with my sword and board build. Granted they get a few good hits on me I'm in trouble but if you keep dancing around them you'll get through. But then again I'm not expecting to be able to Solo Vet11 content. I'm just happy I can kill them PERIOD lol. I grouped up with another vet1 guildie and we were able to take on most of a small bandit camp by ourselves. He was NB I was using my DK. no healer. We did die a few times to be sure but we were also able to take out 8 person vet11 mobs... sometimes with a troll... but usually the mobs with the troll killed us at least once lol.

joeparadis_ESO

fromtesonlineb16_ESO wrote: »

Or maybe players play MMOs for reasons other than wanting to 'group up' simply to level?

Well if you read all of my posts I talk about that. I simply stated that the "repeat" zones like the other factions can be nerfed for soloists so they can grind through leveling that way and that there should be more unique and dedicated Vet zones like craglorn that SHOULD be group oriented.

fromtesonlineb16_ESO wrote: »

I hate the concept of forced grouping to simply level up, I had hoped EQ-like mechanics that FFXI followed had died last century.

You have a great solo game from levels 1-50. And really playing through the other factions is also not that difficult to solo. But dedicated Vet content like Craglorn SHOULD be group oriented and much harder because it's end game content. Many people view Everquest as one of the best original MMOs and many hardcore players see the super hard boss battles of Final Fantasy as great and fun challenges that require coordinated team efforts to overcome. I mean that's the heart and soul of an MMO really. Working together.

fromtesonlineb16_ESO wrote: »

You're pretty condescending towards 'TES' players as you put it, I think nearly all players know "how to play an MMO" in your terms, maybe they have other ideas?

You'll notice in that same post I always include myself in that discussion as well. That's because I'm a diehard TES fan with over 3000 hrs playing skyrim and the creationkit. I say that because me and many other TES players came to ESO with unrealistic expectations. So I'm being critical of myself in that comment as well. And if you look at demographics and statistics its nothing personal or condescending it's just being brutally honest from a business standpoint. There's nothing WRONG with being a TES player. Its just not financially sound to base an MMO off of solo game play. It misses the point of being an MMO and its also a bad decision from a business standpoint.

fromtesonlineb16_ESO wrote: »

Accept it, people see ESO in GW2 terms, where 'ad hoc' grouping is the name of the leveling game, not EQ.

Obviously if I'm continuing to play I'm accepting ESO for what it is regardless but why would I not make suggestions to make the game better? Again no one is forcing you to group. You can still solo your way all the way up to vet 12 if you play right... its just harder. And even if you're having a hard time killing things you can always just group up with someone temporarily using the 'ad hoc' grouping tools to get past the trouble spots. I mean I was killing vet 11 guys with my poorly built vet1 DK that can only dish out 150-250 dps. Is it hard? Yes. Do I have to play really strategically to beat enemies? yes. Do I sometimes have to play with a friend so I even have a sporting chance? yes. But that's what makes the game GOOD. The challenge is what makes you want to keep playing. Sure you get frustrated and walk away fuming sometimes. But that's what makes beating those enemies and overcoming those bosses that much more rewarding.

At the end of the day you're always going to have people that want to make the game easier or harder. I mean if you look at the comment page for the "requiem" mod for Skyrim you'll see half of the comments Cursing the mod stating that it's unreasonably hard, That it's "impossible" etc. etc. But then the other half of the comments are showering the mod with praises saying how it turned Skyrim into a whole new experience for them and they can't stop playing it.

At the end of the day ZOS has to look at the books and figure out which demographic they want to cater to and just go for it.

Anastasia

joeparadis_ESO wrote: »

fromtesonlineb16_ESO wrote: »

Or maybe players play MMOs for reasons other than wanting to 'group up' simply to level?

Well if you read all of my posts I talk about that. I simply stated that the "repeat" zones like the other factions can be nerfed for soloists so they can grind through leveling that way and that there should be more unique and dedicated Vet zones like craglorn that SHOULD be group oriented.

fromtesonlineb16_ESO wrote: »

I hate the concept of forced grouping to simply level up, I had hoped EQ-like mechanics that FFXI followed had died last century.

You have a great solo game from levels 1-50. And really playing through the other factions is also not that difficult to solo. But dedicated Vet content like Craglorn SHOULD be group oriented and much harder because it's end game content. Many people view Everquest as one of the best original MMOs and many hardcore players see the super hard boss battles of Final Fantasy as great and fun challenges that require coordinated team efforts to overcome. I mean that's the heart and soul of an MMO really. Working together.

fromtesonlineb16_ESO wrote: »

You're pretty condescending towards 'TES' players as you put it, I think nearly all players know "how to play an MMO" in your terms, maybe they have other ideas?

You'll notice in that same post I always include myself in that discussion as well. That's because I'm a diehard TES fan with over 3000 hrs playing skyrim and the creationkit. I say that because me and many other TES players came to ESO with unrealistic expectations. So I'm being critical of myself in that comment as well. And if you look at demographics and statistics its nothing personal or condescending it's just being brutally honest from a business standpoint. There's nothing WRONG with being a TES player. Its just not financially sound to base an MMO off of solo game play. It misses the point of being an MMO and its also a bad decision from a business standpoint.

fromtesonlineb16_ESO wrote: »

Accept it, people see ESO in GW2 terms, where 'ad hoc' grouping is the name of the leveling game, not EQ.

Obviously if I'm continuing to play I'm accepting ESO for what it is regardless but why would I not make suggestions to make the game better? Again no one is forcing you to group. You can still solo your way all the way up to vet 12 if you play right... its just harder. And even if you're having a hard time killing things you can always just group up with someone temporarily using the 'ad hoc' grouping tools to get past the trouble spots. I mean I was killing vet 11 guys with my poorly built vet1 DK that can only dish out 150-250 dps. Is it hard? Yes. Do I have to play really strategically to beat enemies? yes. Do I sometimes have to play with a friend so I even have a sporting chance? yes. But that's what makes the game GOOD. The challenge is what makes you want to keep playing. Sure you get frustrated and walk away fuming sometimes. But that's what makes beating those enemies and overcoming those bosses that much more rewarding.

At the end of the day you're always going to have people that want to make the game easier or harder. I mean if you look at the comment page for the "requiem" mod for Skyrim you'll see half of the comments Cursing the mod stating that it's unreasonably hard, That it's "impossible" etc. etc. But then the other half of the comments are showering the mod with praises saying how it turned Skyrim into a whole new experience for them and they can't stop playing it.

At the end of the day ZOS has to look at the books and figure out which demographic they want to cater to and just go for it.

---

Grouping: "that's the heart and soul of an MMO really. Working together."

Yup. A lot of other interesting, fun questing and activities are great and are part of what creates the definition of a successful MMO, but joeparadis nailed it with his description above. For both PvE and PvP elements.

It may be undefinable for some people here, it may seem unimportant to you and that it (grouping) can just be gotten through getting together with guildies, going on exploration treks together, or having purely cooperative grouping to speedrun across the bay nekkid for fun. Thats great, but thats not it. Grouping, with a purpose, with players pulling together to create success, to compete, to share information and root each other on, sometimes kicking one in the azz when one needs it, being a depended-upon part of a semi-structured framework with everyone seeking the same end goal. Nods.

Grouping with a challenge, grouping to watch each others' back, grouping for protection, grouping to exceed the norm...that is what we saw promo'd, discussed, and advertised pre-launch of TESO. Not an mmo with just grouping, but an exciting and challenging MMO with endgame being grouping-centric.

nagarjunna

I agree with both Anastasia and joeparadis - group work is what you end up doing! Once you learn what is required it is heaps of fun!!!

The problem here is that we, and I include myself here, solo the level 1 - 50 stuff with comparative ease. That ease sets the expectation that we can continue to solo. Does not work! Not at all well. So people complain.

Group work very often requires a change of play style, a change in attitude, and all the other things that happen when we stop being rugged individualists and become part of a team.

No wonder people are complaining. They just find it very hard to adjust - this needs to be managed by everyone.

The solution is simple!

A guild is where people go to trade - however very often it is also the start of playing together! It's up to guilds to show new members what is required and the new way of playing.

It is up to ZOS to provide the framework for this to happen. The framework might be as simple as single entry dungeons for small parties. People would form a group and then queue for access. This is their learning space for playing together as a team.

I, for one, want us to learn how to play as a team! It's up to us all to make it happen. Let's go do it!

fromtesonlineb16_ESO

Stalwart385 wrote: »

Great another MMO goes babycakes for the zerg.

Given that people are still able to VR1-VR12 in two days abusing Craglorn even after the huge VP nerfbat hit the Crystals you're clearly over-exaggerating the effects of this change by a massive amount.

fromtesonlineb16_ESO

joeparadis_ESO wrote: »

But dedicated Vet content like Craglorn SHOULD be group oriented and much harder because it's end game content.

Totally agree, true end-game should have SOME group content .. not exclusively, there should be soloable 'dailies' too .. but Craglorn is LEVELING content, it's the only PVE way to go VR11-VR12 so your view of end-game doesn't apply to that zone.

Please stop this false assertion that VR content is end-game, it's not, end-game starts when leveling stops and so far there is NO content for any level that doesn't involve leveling.

fromtesonlineb16_ESO

nagarjunna wrote: »

A guild is where people go to trade

That's all that needs be said about guilds.

ZOS destroyed the concept that all other MMOs have of guilds, the social centres most people gravitate to in order to 'group up' for stuff that needs grouping for and, maye, make some 'friends'.

In ESO guilds exist pure and simply as a poor alternative to a real economy, most guilds I suspect have no social aspect at all and given the existence of such mega-guilds the finding a guild which IS social and progression oriented is a lot more difficult: the only shouts I see are for traders, I can't recall the last time I saw one for anything else.

nagarjunna

The guild I am a member of (only 1 so not representative) is a social hub as well as a trading hub - so perhaps my view is somewhat out of the ordinary.

For me, having a group I can talk to is a great part of being in an MMO and I find that people do like to talk, express opinions, and most importantly assist and help one another. I find that in this MMO as much as any other.

Make it happen - talk to your fellow guildies, answer their questions, help them out, just generally be there for them - I am constantly amazed at the spirit of kindness and generosity I find by just talking and chatting on-line. I help as much as I get helped it's called being part of a community! I like that!

ArRashid

fromtesonlineb16_ESO wrote: »

ArRashid wrote: »

Ehm, well, I expected something more, not lowered difficulty in first 2 vet zones.

Er, first two vet zones? What are you talking about?

If you're referring to this:

We've lowered the difficulty of the second and third alliance zones

You've totally mis-read it.

Well, that's quite possible, but the way it's written, it seems to say they've lowered the difficulty in Glenumbra, Stormhaven, Auridon, Grahtwood, Stonefalls and Deshaan. Not those beyond that.

I just wish patch notes were made by someone who can put CLEAN and understandable information there.

Edit: just tested Malabar Tor (VR4).. no difference between now and then that I'd notice. Mobs still cut you for 250-400 through block per strike per mob...

ZombiPriest

jonpaul wrote: »

Good to hear, I am very interested now as to what will be changed.

Also, now we will be racing through the last of our quests in the Rift to get done with Cadwell's Gold before the changes!

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

Hi everyone,

One of the topics we frequently get feedback on is ESO’s Veteran content. Some of you may have seen our recent comments about changes we have in store for ESO’s post-50 experience. We want you to know we’ve been listening to your suggestions and concerns, but more importantly, we want to tell you what we’re doing about them. Today, we have an update from the ESO Dev Team to share with you.

Some of the concerns you’ve called out are: Veteran content is too much of a departure from the level 1 to 50 experience, playing and leveling through it is too much of a grind, and that the rewards you get don’t match the effort you have to put in to progress.

One of the guiding principles of our Veteran gameplay was to encourage you (not force you) to group. We wanted you to be able to reach max level by playing solo if you wished, but still encourage you to group with others along the way. This principle was the reason we made our post-50 zones more difficult; we wanted you to get together with others to take on tougher challenges and form social bonds while you did so. But we understand that, despite our vision, this is not how all our players want to experience the game beyond level 50.

We recognize that many of you love the game you played while leveling up, and that you feel the post-50 zones are too much of a departure from that experience. We hear your requests to continue participating in solo content as you progress through Veteran Ranks, and we’re acting on that feedback.

Starting next week on Monday, July 7th, you’ll see the first significant change we’re making to the Veteran System. We’re implementing some balance changes to content in post-50 zones that will make it much more like the content from levels 1-50. Our goal is to remove the feeling of “I have just hit a wall of difficulty” that many of you have expressed—you’ll be able to solo much more easily. This is just the first of many large-scale changes coming to ESO’s Veteran System, and we encourage you to watch our QuakeCon panel on Friday, July 17th, where we’ll go into much more detail about the other parts.

Thank you for sticking with us, sharing your concerns, and supporting a game we all love.

Cogo

@ZOS_JessicaFolsom

The lowering of mobs was WAY to much. I don't know numbers. But just in 2 days, less people on EU server is now asking for groups in zone chat.
Maybe a fluke, but PLEASE consider to tweak up the Vet mobs a bit. If only, not to keep growing players interaction and grouping that IS happening.

A 50% lowering in strength seams to be more 80% lowering in strength?
4 mobs can jump me, I only stand still, pushing some of my 5 buttons. I don't need to move, block, use a potion or anything, to defeat them.

This cant be what Zenimax intended with this change?
The reason for this change, that going from lvl 50 area and to become a VETERAN is not too big, but right now, I see no difference in vet area and lvl 49 mobs.

Is not the Combat system of ESO to actively use your skills and abilities, not just push buttons, like Matt said in his description of ESO?

The reasons on this thread from players who wants this easy mode, to be able to level faster with ALTS, and claims that it should not be hard to reach highest level? Is not VETERAN areas where the VETERAN "high end" (not end game), begins?
Solo players states they CAN (before this change) play in vet areas, but leveling goes to slow? The REASON so many stayed and played during bugs, summer and a none working Cyro, IS that ESO is not just EASY.

I think its so WRONG to make veteran areas into a normal "grind", until you reach Vet12. It makes NO SENSE regarding advancement and higher end content. Soon we have the same players who reach Vet 12 FAST, who demands easier high end. I HOPE another BIG change like this will not come then?

Did I miss any reason why players who wants THIS BIG change of mobs in vet areas, other then too level faster, even with ALTS. And not that they can not do it. Some even HAVE a vet 12?

That simply can NOT be a reason enough to change what ESO have, where others MMO fails just because they make fast leveling and higher end (not end game), too easy. ESO needs to work on END GAME, not the leveling speed.

ESO is great! I hope Zenimax listens to ALL feedback here, about Vet areas should be at least somewhere more challenging then 50 areas.

fromtesonlineb16_ESO

Cogo wrote: »

The lowering of mobs was WAY to much. I don't know numbers. But just in 2 days, less people on EU server is now asking for groups in zone chat.

Sounds like the change is WAI: those that want to group can, those that prefer not to aren't forced to.

A win/win it seems to me .. unless so few people actually want to group in which case there's no justification for Craglorn's forced-grouping.

Cogo

fromtesonlineb16_ESO wrote: »

joeparadis_ESO wrote: »

But dedicated Vet content like Craglorn SHOULD be group oriented and much harder because it's end game content.

Totally agree, true end-game should have SOME group content .. not exclusively, there should be soloable 'dailies' too .. but Craglorn is LEVELING content, it's the only PVE way to go VR11-VR12 so your view of end-game doesn't apply to that zone.

Please stop this false assertion that VR content is end-game, it's not, end-game starts when leveling stops and so far there is NO content for any level that doesn't involve leveling.

You are as well as me of course allowed to say your opinion.
But WHERE does it say anything that MMORPG has to be anything at ALL, other then what it means.

VR content is not END game. It is HIGH LEVEL game. You are even called a VETERAN. Veteran areas in ESO was intended to be more challenging and an incentive to group up. Which WORKS on EU server. Just not in the pace Zenimax expected. Add to that, feedback from players who CAN play there, but WANTS to level faster?

That end-game starts where leveling stops......is not just wrong. But its up to the MMO creator to decide that.

However, if you wish to compare with other MMORPG, even those who are not the same Type as ESO, ALL higher end content gets of course harder...

Even WoW, which is the MASTER of easy. Even in WoW, you currently die at times when you solo in Higher end content and NOT just END GAME.

"Leveling" in ESO is a factor to your advancement. I should not need to list the other 10 things which is just as important as leveling to advance in ESO.

Asking people to "stop" any statements at all, is that right you think? Should I ask you to stop posting? I would never do such a thing!

frwinters_ESO

Cant please everyone. Simple logic, more people who said it was to hard rather then it was fine won. Now those who liked the challenge complain but the masses are happier. That means more people will keep there subs over possible losses of subs due to said change.

I support the decision as a casual player. The casual player probably holds the most sway over any MMO because of their numbers. We are the guys and girls who get minimal time to play the game, perhaps an hour or two a night and we do not have time to seek out groups. We want to come home, log into the game we pay for, feel like we are progressing during the few times we get to play, and we are happy.

Casual players rule the MMO world. The working man and woman, with children and families and full time jobs. They keep paying for the subs as disposable income and we may play less then any hardcore player who will burn through content get bored, end there sub and go on to the next game.

fromtesonlineb16_ESO

Cogo wrote: »

fromtesonlineb16_ESO wrote: »

joeparadis_ESO wrote: »

But dedicated Vet content like Craglorn SHOULD be group oriented and much harder because it's end game content.

Totally agree, true end-game should have SOME group content .. not exclusively, there should be soloable 'dailies' too .. but Craglorn is LEVELING content, it's the only PVE way to go VR11-VR12 so your view of end-game doesn't apply to that zone.

Please stop this false assertion that VR content is end-game, it's not, end-game starts when leveling stops and so far there is NO content for any level that doesn't involve leveling.

You are as well as me of course allowed to say your opinion.
But WHERE does it say anything that MMORPG has to be anything at ALL, other then what it means.

VR content is not END game. It is HIGH LEVEL game. You are even called a VETERAN. Veteran areas in ESO was intended to be more challenging and an incentive to group up. Which WORKS on EU server. Just not in the pace Zenimax expected. Add to that, feedback from players who CAN play there, but WANTS to level faster?

That end-game starts where leveling stops......is not just wrong. But its up to the MMO creator to decide that.

However, if you wish to compare with other MMORPG, even those who are not the same Type as ESO, ALL higher end content gets of course harder...

Even WoW, which is the MASTER of easy. Even in WoW, you currently die at times when you solo in Higher end content and NOT just END GAME.

"Leveling" in ESO is a factor to your advancement. I should not need to list the other 10 things which is just as important as leveling to advance in ESO.

Asking people to "stop" any statements at all, is that right you think?

When what they're saying is plain wrong, then yes, it's perfectly right, and asserting VR is end-game is wrong whether you want to try to play semantic games such as 'high-level' or not.

/thread

Korinth

joeparadis_ESO wrote: »

So based upon reading other forum posts this is what needs to be done to solve the veteran content issues:

1) Don't Nerf Craglorn, instead clue the player into the fact that vet zones (like craglorn) require grouping in order to get through via new dialog from Cadwell. "Well you could go to this Craglorn place, I here there's plenty of adventure to be found there, but I wouldn't go at it alone ol boy. Best to pick up a few companions along the way to take on all those beasties with." Maybe nerf the alliance zones so the facerollers can solo them to get to vet zones. But leveling in group oriented Vet zones should harder but also faster and more rewarding. (5 new vet zones get you to v10, craglorn still gives you v11 and v12, alternatively you COULD turn Craglorn into the new vet1-2 zone but I think that you would have to fast track other new content. for higher level players.)

2) FIX GROUPING AND PHASING MECHANICS. These still suck and it is the reason why everyone is soloing. In fact you should probably do away with most "phasing" instances. Players should be able to work together to solve puzzles, repeat quests with lower level players etc. etc. Look at how they do it in WoW then do the same thing in ESO. Stop trying to re-invent the wheel when the current wheel just works fine. Right now ESO is trying to roll around on octagons.

3) Add new unique and difficult group oriented Vet content to fill in the gaps between vet1 - vet10 so you don't have to grind through repeating the alliances. Again keep the ability to repeat other alliances and maybe nerf the difficulty slightly so there is an option to keep playing for the faceroll soloists.

I think these 3 things will be a good start to resolve the veteran content issues, and resolving the phasing issues will really help with the multiplayer dynamics in general. It will be a step in the right direction to help retain subscribers and perhaps get a few more.

Do number 2 and that's all Zeni would have to do to fix all of it. But now I beat a dead horse

joeparadis_ESO

nagarjunna wrote: »

The problem here is that we, and I include myself here, solo the level 1 - 50 stuff with comparative ease. That ease sets the expectation that we can continue to solo. Does not work! Not at all well. So people complain.

Again you bring up the big problem here that I keep talking about and that is the expectations. I went through the 1-50 content with relative ease myself then I got to my vet1 zone and was like "jesus! why is everything so hard to kill?! Even these damn wolves are giving me a hard time!"

I had no idea why everything was harder and I got discouraged and didn't play for a while because it was repeat content. I decided to forgo my other vet alliance zones and hit up Cyrodiil or Craglorn instead.

Had Cadwell told me that other areas are going to be harder and require me to work together with other "companions" to defeat. Then I would have thought "Oh wow, okay so they made the whole area like a group dungeon... Hmmm okay let me see if I can get a few of my guildies up to vet1 so we can play together"

Again it's about setting expectations not bringing out the nerfbat at every turn. Think about the core of the problem not the symptoms. Too often ZOS has treated the symptoms of user issues/complaints and not addressed the core problems.

Another good example is the whole starter island fiasco. A select group of people complained because they're expectations of freedom weren't met. They complained about being "Stuck" on the starter islands and unable to progress in the game. The most noticeable of which was the Daggerfall Covenent where you were forced to go through 2 starter islands.

The CORE problem is that people wanted the freedom to explore. But all ZOS heard was people complaining about starter islands. The Simple solution would be to place a skiff on the island so the player could jump directly to the mainland. Instead ZOS spent a ton of money Re-writing, Re-voicing and re-programming the whole beginning storyline to have the player start on the mainland, sabotaging all of their previous storyline work and making it confusing for the player to get back to the starter islands. Again that "fix" was treating the SYMPTOMS not the PROBLEM. The only BIG change I would have suggested was to simply merge Betnik with the mainland. 2 starter zones is just too much. The Aldmeri Dominion did it the best. 1 big starter island then it's off to meet the queen. Add a skiff to the mainland and Bam! done. EP did it the second best with it's progression as it felt fairly seemless as well.

One thing ZOS could try to do is to ASK the community what the best way to solve large pending issues. Put up a question in the upcoming patch notes:

"Hey community, we are getting a lot of complaints/feedback saying that the veteran content is too hard. We are thinking of Nerfing X content to make it easier but would like to get your feedback. What do you think we should do about this issue?"

Then take the top 3 answers and put them up to a survey vote. The winning solution gets implemented.

That may sound unrealistic because it delays dev time BUT if you limit it to a 1 week feedback period, and build the correct expecations amongst players to GIVE feedback by promoting this model on FB, here and the login screen for ESO, you would find the system working rather fluidly by it's second or third iteration. Obviously not EVERY decision should be put up for a vote like this but rather just the controversial ones.

Again food for thought. The Core messages of this post are: 1) Set player expectations to head off problems 2) Treat the Problem not the symptoms 3) use the most simplistic solution possible 4) If possible involve the community to help decide large and potentially controversial changes.

SootyTX

Stalwart385 wrote: »

Great another MMO goes babycakes for the zerg.

People just don't understand the reward that comes with a challenge. They want VR12 NOW!

I went from focusing on my fights to gathering as many enemies as possible just to clear the area. No potions, food or thought necessary.

I made it through both the VR8 and VR9 zones yesterday. How does letting people hit VR12 easily help keep subs?

No. Actually most of us find challenge and a sense of real accomplishment from the real world and don't feel the need for a video game to somehow bolster our self worth.

I play video games to relax and have fun. So, clearly based on demographics in this industry, do the vast majority of others. This is a great change that can only be good for the long term health of the game

steveb16_ESO46

Mortosk wrote: »

Private company, not sure if they have partners or not. I'm sure they care about making $ though just to be profitable. I mean they obviously care about $$$, they are the only MMO that excludes a race in the standard edition and horses are so ridiculously expensive it behooves you to buy the CE or pick one up from the online store.

Obviously, they want to succeed. They definitely don't want to go the way of Age of Conan and FFXIV (before the remake).

You can go see the names of their investors. All companies have investors. and all companies want a max ROI.

These changes have nothing whatsoever to do with anything said on these forums. No company in the world makes investment decisions based on forum yahoos. Forums are the surface noise symptoms of problems, not the causes.

They have everything to do with the financial projections not looking good. It turns out the hardcore market wasn't as lucrative as they imagined and now they are scrabbling to make changes to retain customers.

This isn't 2004. MMO's are big businesses and the market is different. They have to work harder at entertaining a different customer base. The ESO customer base was always going to be a broad one and they made the mistake of changing the gameplay totally at VR in a way that a segment was bound not to like.

Now it turns out that segment was a big segment. It included people like me who want to have fun for a few hours playing a game. Not interested in grouping with whatever selection of random strangers the phase technology deemed appropriate. Not interested in every trash mob fight being life or death. Not interested in writing off 'play the way your want'.

If Zenimax wanted me to keep giving them money they had to start working for it. I thought that maybe there would be a market for a hard core game and they could stick with their primary plans. But it turns out this isn't the case.

Will these changes work? Maybe, maybe not. For me the big obstacle to resubbing remains and that is the whole thing about doing other faction quests. Until that goes and there's an alternative way of obtaining the skyshards I doubt i'll be resubbing.

I simply am not interested in doing those quests. It doesn't make any sense, it is just lazy hand-waving.

But again - me saying this here will have no effect. What will have an effect is them looking at the numbers in 3 months and finding people are not resubbing and are still not playing after the end of the story line.

If that happens they'll be forced to change stuff again. If the numbers look fine they won't have to.

i expect they'll look just fine.

Ilterendi

steveb16_ESO46 wrote: »

Mortosk wrote: »

Private company, not sure if they have partners or not. I'm sure they care about making $ though just to be profitable. I mean they obviously care about $$$, they are the only MMO that excludes a race in the standard edition and horses are so ridiculously expensive it behooves you to buy the CE or pick one up from the online store.

Obviously, they want to succeed. They definitely don't want to go the way of Age of Conan and FFXIV (before the remake).

You can go see the names of their investors. All companies have investors. and all companies want a max ROI.

These changes have nothing whatsoever to do with anything said on these forums. No company in the world makes investment decisions based on forum yahoos. Forums are the surface noise symptoms of problems, not the causes.

They have everything to do with the financial projections not looking good. It turns out the hardcore market wasn't as lucrative as they imagined and now they are scrabbling to make changes to retain customers.

This isn't 2004. MMO's are big businesses and the market is different. They have to work harder at entertaining a different customer base. The ESO customer base was always going to be a broad one and they made the mistake of changing the gameplay totally at VR in a way that a segment was bound not to like.

Now it turns out that segment was a big segment. It included people like me who want to have fun for a few hours playing a game. Not interested in grouping with whatever selection of random strangers the phase technology deemed appropriate. Not interested in every trash mob fight being life or death. Not interested in writing off 'play the way your want'.

If Zenimax wanted me to keep giving them money they had to start working for it. I thought that maybe there would be a market for a hard core game and they could stick with their primary plans. But it turns out this isn't the case.

Will these changes work? Maybe, maybe not. For me the big obstacle to resubbing remains and that is the whole thing about doing other faction quests. Until that goes and there's an alternative way of obtaining the skyshards I doubt i'll be resubbing.

I simply am not interested in doing those quests. It doesn't make any sense, it is just lazy hand-waving.

But again - me saying this here will have no effect. What will have an effect is them looking at the numbers in 3 months and finding people are not resubbing and are still not playing after the end of the story line.

If that happens they'll be forced to change stuff again. If the numbers look fine they won't have to.

i expect they'll look just fine.

QFT!

So informative it should be read twice. Fully agree.

NewBlacksmurf

They should use VR levels for PvP only.

The endgame should provide dungeon running for "Veteran" difficulty but using another term.

Those dungeons should drop blue or better armor sets of all types to assist players with their class and the gear would also enable people to gear up for Crag

The whole VR system is simply dumb. It was something to create a time sink until the developers figure out what "endgame" style promotes sub retention.

The current model creates separation because:

-people can't quantify the abilities of another gamer as skill levels and stats or gear are hidden.
-character level or VR ranks don't signify ability or anything more than achieved VR exp
-it takes a very long time for anyone who just hit VR1 to reach VR12 and forces people to.play through other factions (another pointless but intentional time sink that defeats the point of refilling in another faction)
-The VR model further separates new level "50" characters from others which seems to show an elitist approach rather than a collaborative approach.



In the end, what is the point of VR content. Knowing that it really didn't make sense and now knowing that the levels and other functions are subject to change in 30 days.




My position, though not shared by all, suggests that at each max level the players need to be brought together.

In WoW the problem today are one max level and gear tiered dungeons that separate other players. I hoped this game would take a "gear seek" approach and encourage others to play together.

While those who play more or who seek harder challenges I do feel there should be "difficult" versions of all dungeons and raids the rewards would fall to those difficulty levels but the only separating factor would be character ability and gear bonuses.

Today I'm 100% dis interested in any endgame and I brought this to satisfy my desires to.play online with others in dungeon or raiding environments.

Dare I say that the 1-49 levels are far better than most MMORPGs that exist today but the VR1-etc is the worse endgame of any MMORPG.

There are free to play games that are pay to win whose endgame is better and it's only due to a lack.of thought. The platform is set.



Use Cyrodil in two ways. PvE campaigns (NPCs only vs players)
PvP as it works today. Allow both to serve as endgame but the PvE version would be like Dark Age of Camelot's frontier.

Cyrodil could provide the solo gamer with new and ever changing challenges as they along with other solo players could attack other factions in a quest system to eliminate the need of cross faction VR leveling

Crag would stay as it is but a level 50 raid with a normal version and a difficult version.
The dungeons would have a difficult version(not VR level) and start from 48-50 as the endgame story tends to finish around those levels.

Gear mats, recipes, weapons and armor would be unique in artwork and the number of abilities in these zones as it's a max level.

Even some sets should follow the update 3 with options to choose to some extent the artwork that appears like the Imperial edition option.


This is a good game with so.much potential but with champion levels coming and the VR levels approach people will become.more and.more alienated as PvE MUST be based on caps and max levels not a level extension.

At some point the game would need expansions so either level 50 is it forever or things need to be changed now before it gets confusing and those VR12 characters and players will be frustrated with changes that discount their long efforts .

Rune_Relic

I think its time to face reality.
1. Player gap is a serious issue considering VR levels. But the main problem is although level 50 they are still becoming vastly more powerful compared to lower levels.
2. PVP especially is a nightmare but PVE still faces that wall of difficulty.
3. People who invest 1000s of hours compared to some still feel they should be more powerful than those who haven't.
4. People buy these games to have fun and not be slaughtered at every turn.
5. The whole point of levelling is to give your character focus on a preferred skill set .....not to let you dominate everyone else.

The "only way" to effectively solve this is with a performance arc rather than a linear progression. This way those who have invested 1000s of hours can still progress more than others without leaving them behind. This way the new people can join and "catch up to" similar performance levels as those experienced players without being completely dominated. It also makes levelling up an exercise in specialising your character only...for the way you like to play.

Example.
Max Level = 90
Level = Atan (XP / 1,000,000)
17,500 xp = Level 1
1,000,000xp = Level 45
10,000,000xp = Level 84.289
20,000,000xp = Level 87.138
Infinite xp = Level 90

It also means armour and damage must be tied to skill level rather than xp. Then players of level 48 wont be that far removed from players of level 50 and can still have a good fight. This then naturally balances the game from a combat viewpoint. Here everyone within a couple of levels of max will be competitive 1v1. There is also the possibility that 5x level 10 players could take on one approaching level 50. So low level groups can still bring down champions if you will. This appears crude and simple, but effective none the less.

The system also lends itself to grouping and monster stats. If a demon is level 40, I only need to gather enough friends on the fly that also total level 40 to give that demon a good fight. If I wasn't roughly level 40 myself. In reverse the monsters can be scaled to suit any group of players with relative ease. Not in an exact way but near enough to give them a chance when we think of group dungeons.

Of course, humanoids would be capped at near 50 for arguments sake, monsters and gods are not human. They will have their own level cap as they are already a specialised species. Gods could be 100 for instance. But even then it is clear roughly how many people we would need to team up with to stand a chance.

Does that negate the need for levelled zones if you know the power of the enemies you are facing ?

Does that negate the need for solo vs group content ?