ZOS are you ever going to speak up on personal banks?

Fleymark

Riptide wrote: »

There is, to me, a short list of things that need to show some movement in the short term or I'm going to start looking at other options - not just for me but for my guild. As it is I find myself damning ESO with faint praise, and that is a shame.

The inventory system is needlessly irritating. Hoarding? No. The market system, if it can properly be called that, is not supply/demand/volume enough to move most of the stuff out of your inventory fast enough without vendoring or muling a whole bunch of stuff.

I get the strong sense that somewhere in the ZOS team there is a gatekeeper. That person is strongly opposed to "kneejerk" changes because they firmly believe that changes can be cumulative and sway the game all over the map. And so tweaking the inventory system prior to seeing what the updated market system does to affect it....updating stamina, melee, templar etc builds without watching what small changes do etc...a firm stand is had by this person.

I wish that a less risk adverse sort of person were making these sort of decisions. Games like these have about 3-6 months shot at retention, and then the main body tends to move on if they don't see results in a timely fashion. Time is more of the essence now than it will be in a couple of years, by a very large factor.

--edit, said it more politely.

I think you are absolutely correct.

For one, the problem with storage space isn't borne out of "hoarding." It's because people find the need to do every or most crafts they need. And that is because the economy in this game is severely stunted. Crafting is easy to do. So the path of least resistance is to do the crafts and deal with the inventory headache rather than deal with the marketplace.

And I think you are absolutely spot on with your gatekeeper theory. They even said as much when it comes to class balancing. They prefer to tweak things into place incrementally than make broad sweeping changes.

Gear post. An insight gold star for you, sir.

It just sucks dealing with this inventory and every other annoyance in the meantime is all. They need to get on it because people are reaching their limits with this and a whole list of other issues.

Fleymark

DeLindsay wrote: »

Yet another Waaaambulance tread. Your account bank is upgradable to 240 slots, your personal inventory to 169 slots (including horse) and that's per 8 character. AT roughly the 4 1/2 month mark (from launch), for those dedicated crafters, they will no longer need ANY inventory space for researchable items. It's also been said so many times I've lost count, that there's literally no reason whatsoever to keep all Provision ingredients. There's only roughly a dozen or so that are useful, even less once you're at VR.

ZoS just made (2) Runes useless, there's 2 more spaces. What could you possibly need to hoard that requires more than 240 + 169 + 169 + 169 + 169 + 169 + 169 + 169 + 169 inventory spaces. BTW, that's a total of 1592 inventory spaces. I don't think there is even that many items in the game if you stored 100 (full stack) of every single crafting item, including all raw mats, all refined mats, all runes, all prov ingredients, all trait stones, all upgrade mats, all soul shards empty and full, and 1 of every single trait for research on a fresh toon.

If you craft the need for space comes LONG before you have the cash to spend on 240 bank spaces or more than 100 or so on a character, much less multiples. There are other cash sinks in the game and it's entirely possible even likely that most players are going to prioritize a respec they need if they screwed something up badly in their build or, due to the wild class imbalances.

The only people with that kind of cash worked the hirelings "hack" as it was called and/or farmed motifs before the drop rates were increased and the prices dropped. Cash is still easy, but not THAT easy. It's a lot easier to get neck eedo in multiple crafts than it is to farm the amounts of cash you are talking about. We are talking about the game today, not two months ago.

You are correct about the prov mats tho. If you use the list on the foundry it's very easy to prioritize that. With smart logistics and organisation you can minimise the amount of mules you need.

But you still need them. And this system is still moronic, really.

DeLindsay

Fleymark wrote: »

The only people with that kind of cash worked the hirelings "hack" as it was called and/or farmed motifs before the drop rates were increased and the prices dropped. Cash is still easy, but not THAT easy. It's a lot easier to get neck eedo in multiple crafts than it is to farm the amounts of cash you are talking about. We are talking about the game today, not two months ago.

The Hireling "hack" you are referring to wasn't a hack or exploit or anything in-between. The Hirelings still give EXACTLY the same volume of upgrade materials as they did before, the ONLY change is that they only give Raw/Refined materials based on the profession level of the character that it spawned from. I know it wasn't a hack/exploit because I personally reported it as a bug back then to make sure I wouldn't get in trouble for it and a GM spoke to me at length in game about it.

Instead, many of these mysterious players you speak of most likely made good money duping, that I will concede. I've had 33 Hirelings (I don't do Prov on all 8) since about the 4th day of early access, I don't farm Motifs, ever, I've never duped (I wouldn't be here right now if I had), and even still I have 150 bank and maxed character slots (on 1 character). I install my final 8-trait for WW in 4 days and have full 6+ trait every thing else. That means my bank space is loosening up from all the researchable items that WERE in there for the past months. I've had zero issue with inventory space since I hit about 130 bank and full personal space.

My point is, other than laziness, there's no reason to NEED more space than what ZoS offers fully upgraded. Not spending in game gold on inventory this early in the game is silly, there isn't another good gold sink atm, save full legendary gear at VR12, and even then meh.

Blackwidow

DeLindsay wrote: »

My point is, other than laziness, there's no reason to NEED more space than what ZoS offers fully upgraded.

Not wanting to use mules as bank spaces in not laziness, it is just common sense.

ZOS making players use mules is just driving players out of the game.

If you want people to keep leaving the game, so it eventually goes F2P, please by all means keep fighting for bad game designs.

Fleymark

DeLindsay wrote: »

Fleymark wrote: »

The only people with that kind of cash worked the hirelings "hack" as it was called and/or farmed motifs before the drop rates were increased and the prices dropped. Cash is still easy, but not THAT easy. It's a lot easier to get neck eedo in multiple crafts than it is to farm the amounts of cash you are talking about. We are talking about the game today, not two months ago.

The Hireling "hack" you are referring to wasn't a hack or exploit or anything in-between. The Hirelings still give EXACTLY the same volume of upgrade materials as they did before, the ONLY change is that they only give Raw/Refined materials based on the profession level of the character that it spawned from. I know it wasn't a hack/exploit because I personally reported it as a bug back then to make sure I wouldn't get in trouble for it and a GM spoke to me at length in game about it.

Instead, many of these mysterious players you speak of most likely made good money duping, that I will concede. I've had 33 Hirelings (I don't do Prov on all 8) since about the 4th day of early access, I don't farm Motifs, ever, I've never duped (I wouldn't be here right now if I had), and even still I have 150 bank and maxed character slots (on 1 character). I install my final 8-trait for WW in 4 days and have full 6+ trait every thing else. That means my bank space is loosening up from all the researchable items that WERE in there for the past months. I've had zero issue with inventory space since I hit about 130 bank and full personal space.

My point is, other than laziness, there's no reason to NEED more space than what ZoS offers fully upgraded. Not spending in game gold on inventory this early in the game is silly, there isn't another good gold sink atm, save full legendary gear at VR12, and even then meh.

I never suggested it was a hack or exploit. I said that's what it was called and is why I put quotes around it. If you Google eso hireling that's what comes up. Particularly the YouTube video that describes what people were doing by levelling up every toon on their account in crafting just enough to get hirelings, then opening the packages with their higher level mains. You can still do this now for the upgrade mats, yes, actually it's probably better now because they upped the rate of that in the patch I think, but you now don't get the higher level basic mats. A small difference but over 8 toons and over time that adds up fast.

And, as I said, motifs were much more profitable then.

I do agree that bank and inventory space should be your priority early on I didn't buy my first horse till the day I hit 50 because of that. You get more mileage put of space than anything. And I do agree it is a lot more manageable if you prioritize properly and are organised. You really don't need to keep basic mats around if you don't have a toon in that tier, IMO, for example.

But the fact remains that it is a lot easier to get overwhelmed with crafting mats earlier than it is to expand space. And, more importantly, compared to practically every other game in existence, this system is clunky and completely ass backwards. It's manageable but the ostensible limit on crafting it supposedly there for is really nothing more than a trivial PITA and shows poor vision and design skills on the part of the developers, IMO.

As I said in another thread, all it accomplishes is limiting the number alts you can have (if you don't play your mules) and giving you the experience of shuffling papers in and out of filing cabinet drawers a couple times a day.

I'm old school. I like games with meaningful challenge, difficulty, and even appropriate timesinks. I like games that require grouping even if that means waiting around a bit or having bad groups sometimes. Real travel so the world has size and feels like a world. People like me are told time and again that these things have no place in modern games. We've moved on to a new era where easy solo play is the order of the day. And THIS is where we find our mundane timesinks? Managing inventory? Really?

It's ridiculous.

It's especially ridiculous because a lot of the issues with this are created by a distinct lack of a player economy. The way they have trading set up now just isn't working.

Kewljag_66_ESO

Mortosk wrote: »

Double available inventory and bank space for starters or add a crafter bank where you can stack 250 of each crafting ingredient without using any bank space.

Give each character access to a personal bank in addition to the shared bank.

Increase stack size to 250.

Get rid of the multiple potions for different levels. If you are V5 you should only get V5 potions from mobs. Not 50, V1 (which is the same thing, jeez), and V5 taking up 3 slots each for magic, health, and stamina. It's lame.

Get rid of different value vendor trash items. Did you know there's different versions of ectoplasm and supple roots (for example) that each take a slot?

Make pets, vanity, Costume, and disguise items quest items or code them so they don't use inventory space. Every other MMO in the last decade has a pet bar and the item vanishes the first time you use it.

Give us access to more than 5 guilds or create a proper auction house.

Add a search box for keywords for crying out loud.

If someone wants to spend the numerous skill points needed to max all professions then they should be able to have the space they need to facilitate it. Currently there's only enough space for one profession. And if that profession is provisioning God help you.

The choice you made to restrict crafters when there is already one in place via the skill points required for each profession was the wrong choice. One of the worst decisions you made and I'm almost positive this has cost you subscriptions. If you want to be a crafter you have to deal with mules and limited space all the time and some people don't have the time or the patience for such a high degree of tedium.

Your limited bank inventory is part of the system so you cant loot and gather eveything. you must make choices on your crafting. Over time as you upgrade you have more room to hold more things and can expand your crafting.

Also Your limited inventory and bank space has a huge incentive to upgrade your horse to be able to carry more things but you have to sacrifice speed. if inventory was not an issue there would be zero reason to upgrade a horse to carry stuff. Your horse can carry alot of stuff.

Mortosk

Kewljag_66_ESO wrote: »

Mortosk wrote: »

Double available inventory and bank space for starters or add a crafter bank where you can stack 250 of each crafting ingredient without using any bank space.

Give each character access to a personal bank in addition to the shared bank.

Increase stack size to 250.

Get rid of the multiple potions for different levels. If you are V5 you should only get V5 potions from mobs. Not 50, V1 (which is the same thing, jeez), and V5 taking up 3 slots each for magic, health, and stamina. It's lame.

Get rid of different value vendor trash items. Did you know there's different versions of ectoplasm and supple roots (for example) that each take a slot?

Make pets, vanity, Costume, and disguise items quest items or code them so they don't use inventory space. Every other MMO in the last decade has a pet bar and the item vanishes the first time you use it.

Give us access to more than 5 guilds or create a proper auction house.

Add a search box for keywords for crying out loud.

If someone wants to spend the numerous skill points needed to max all professions then they should be able to have the space they need to facilitate it. Currently there's only enough space for one profession. And if that profession is provisioning God help you.

The choice you made to restrict crafters when there is already one in place via the skill points required for each profession was the wrong choice. One of the worst decisions you made and I'm almost positive this has cost you subscriptions. If you want to be a crafter you have to deal with mules and limited space all the time and some people don't have the time or the patience for such a high degree of tedium.

Your limited bank inventory is part of the system so you cant loot and gather eveything. you must make choices on your crafting. Over time as you upgrade you have more room to hold more things and can expand your crafting.

Also Your limited inventory and bank space has a huge incentive to upgrade your horse to be able to carry more things but you have to sacrifice speed. if inventory was not an issue there would be zero reason to upgrade a horse to carry stuff. Your horse can carry alot of stuff.

Thanks but I already know all that. I simply disagree with all of it vehemently and want ZOS to understand that many of us, including me, feel the same way. I think changing their stance on this issue would improve their game and make crafting a much more enjoyable process.

Blackwidow

Kewljag_66_ESO wrote: »

Your limited bank inventory is part of the system so you cant loot and gather eveything.

Well, then it was very badly designed. I can still loot and gather everything. ZOS just made the task very tedious to the point where people are quitting.

BTW, that idea is crap on a stick. Making tiny banks to try to stop people from crafting is a horrible idea. There has to be 100 different ways to limit crafting on players that is better that implementing a herocious bank design.

Also Your limited inventory and bank space has a huge incentive to upgrade your horse to be able to carry more things but you have to sacrifice speed.

First, we don't need incentive to make our bags larger. Bags are not the problem. It is bank space.

Second, making us spend huge chunks of gold for tiny bank spaces does not leave us a lot of gold to buy a mount.

if inventory was not an issue there would be zero reason to upgrade a horse to carry stuff. Your horse can carry alot of stuff.

We don't need more bag space to have better bank mules.

We need a better bank system.

Mortosk

DeLindsay wrote: »

Yet another Waaaambulance tread. Your account bank is upgradable to 240 slots, your personal inventory to 169 slots (including horse) and that's per 8 character. AT roughly the 4 1/2 month mark (from launch), for those dedicated crafters, they will no longer need ANY inventory space for researchable items. It's also been said so many times I've lost count, that there's literally no reason whatsoever to keep all Provision ingredients. There's only roughly a dozen or so that are useful, even less once you're at VR.

ZoS just made (2) Runes useless, there's 2 more spaces. What could you possibly need to hoard that requires more than 240 + 169 + 169 + 169 + 169 + 169 + 169 + 169 + 169 inventory spaces. BTW, that's a total of 1592 inventory spaces. I don't think there is even that many items in the game if you stored 100 (full stack) of every single crafting item, including all raw mats, all refined mats, all runes, all prov ingredients, all trait stones, all upgrade mats, all soul shards empty and full, and 1 of every single trait for research on a fresh toon.

I think you are missing the point. And calling us whiners isn't constructive. Also you are exaggerating excessively.

Even if we upgraded 7 mules to 169 inventory slots we'd still have to constantly log in and out of them to move things into and out of our shared bank.

We don't want to use mules at all. We want a reasonable amount of space in our shared bank to accommodate more than just 1 crafting profession on 1 character. There is no personal bank for each character. All you have is your inventory space which can be upgraded very slowly 1 slot per day over 50 days, yes. It can be upgraded by paying 10s of thousands of gold as well to a certain point. I don't have 169 slots on any of my mules. Guess I'm just not that dedicated to spend 50 days upgrading plus a fortune on a lvl 3 mule toon.

If someone wants to level crafting on more than one character they really have no choice but to use mules. Or if they want to level more than one profession on just 1 character.

drogon1

Agree with OP.

Poorly implemented inventory management removes about 20% of the fun from the game. Especially when it's an easy fix, and been done before.

How anyone can defend the current system is surprising. Especially when, for some, it is a deal-breaker. When was the last time a premium MMO lost subs due to...it's poor inventory system?

Blackwidow

drogon1 wrote: »

Agree with OP.

Poorly implemented inventory management removes about 20% of the fun from the game. Especially when it's an easy fix, and been done before.

How anyone can defend the current system is surprising. Especially when, for some, it is a deal-breaker. When was the last time a premium MMO lost subs due to...it's poor inventory system?

ESO for 100, Alex.

KariTR

Laerania_ESO wrote: »

Hadria wrote: »

What's wrong with it?

Personal bank doesn't exist, that's the "problem".

Actually it does, but in this game we carry it around with us.

People can't see the wood for the trees sometimes.

Mortosk

KariTR wrote: »

Laerania_ESO wrote: »

Hadria wrote: »

What's wrong with it?

Personal bank doesn't exist, that's the "problem".

Actually it does, but in this game we carry it around with us.

People can't see the wood for the trees sometimes.

Sigh.

Blackwidow

KariTR wrote: »

Laerania_ESO wrote: »

Hadria wrote: »

What's wrong with it?

Personal bank doesn't exist, that's the "problem".

Actually it does, but in this game we carry it around with us.

People can't see the wood for the trees sometimes.

Those are called bags. If you don't know the difference between bags and banks, I can't help you.

Mortosk

Nazon_Katts wrote: »

Bank and bag space is one of those systems in an MMO that works considerably different with a pay-to-play business model, than a free-to-play one, because it can be monetized. Usually, in P2P games, storage is in the hand of the crafters and readily available.

Why that is not the case with ESO, that's up to everyone's speculations, since I don't expect an official word on that any time sooner than console release or closer to it.

This brings up an interesting point. Can you imagine how difficult bank mule management would be using a console game controller? Hope they have some really intuitive control features.

Blackwidow

Heishi wrote: »

IIRC Storage wasn't unlimited without mods, though you could hide stuff random places and hope that it wasn't found by a looting npc. Maybe the mods were needed due to inconvenient locations..

IIRC?

In Skyrim there was unlimited storage without any mods.

Blackwidow

ZOS, please just say something. Anything.

Is there any plans for a change at all?

KariTR

Blackwidow wrote: »

KariTR wrote: »

Laerania_ESO wrote: »

Hadria wrote: »

What's wrong with it?

Personal bank doesn't exist, that's the "problem".

Actually it does, but in this game we carry it around with us.

People can't see the wood for the trees sometimes.

Those are called bags. If you don't know the difference between bags and banks, I can't help you.

I don't need help Blackwidow, unlike some 'players'.

Once you stop using a bank as personal storage and instead use your character's personal storage as their bank and only use the account bank for items you share with your account characters, banking is perfectly manageable.

Or you can carry on using semantics as an excuse for the fact you can't manage simple problem-solving.

Kulthax

Blackwidow wrote: »

Heishi wrote: »

IIRC Storage wasn't unlimited without mods, though you could hide stuff random places and hope that it wasn't found by a looting npc. Maybe the mods were needed due to inconvenient locations..

IIRC?

In Skyrim there was unlimited storage without any mods.

Actually the chests and other containers used for storage in your personal homes has a finite amount of space (number of unique items allowed). I do not know about stack sizes though since I have never come close to maxing anything to my knowledge. But to be agreeable, there is enough of this space to basically deem it unlimited.

On topic: The inventory system in TESO does need an overhaul imo. Some very valid reasons already stated and I do not need to rehash them.

edit:on topic

brandon

Blackwidow wrote: »

Is the personal bank system going to get an upgrade or not?

Feel free to chime in at anytime just to let us know what you are thinking.

Thank you.

"Double available inventory and bank space for starters or add a crafter bank where you can stack 250 of each crafting ingredient without using any bank space.

Give each character access to a personal bank in addition to the shared bank.

Increase stack size to 250.

Get rid of the multiple potions for different levels. If you are V5 you should only get V5 potions from mobs. Not 50, V1 (which is the same thing, jeez), and V5 taking up 3 slots each for magic, health, and stamina. It's lame.

Get rid of different value vendor trash items. Did you know there's different versions of ectoplasm and supple roots (for example) that each take a slot?

Make pets, vanity, Costume, and disguise items quest items or code them so they don't use inventory space. Every other MMO in the last decade has a pet bar and the item vanishes the first time you use it."

I agree with everything you said except the multiple potions thing. It adds a TES feel to this game because all TES games have a lot of random crap.

Adrastes

Fully agree with Op. as a great hoarder and crafter/enchanter etc the space we have right now is simply not enough even when fully upgraded.

DeLindsay

Adrastes wrote: »

Fully agree with Op. as a great hoarder and crafter/enchanter etc the space we have right now is simply not enough even when fully upgraded.

240 account bank spaces plus 169 personal spaces per character (with Horse) isn't enough for a great hoarder? I can assure you that is enough to have a full stack of EVERY material in the game, plus a good number armor/weapons waiting for research, plus some trophies and other various random "junk".

Blackwidow

KariTR wrote: »

Blackwidow wrote: »

KariTR wrote: »

Laerania_ESO wrote: »

Hadria wrote: »

What's wrong with it?

Personal bank doesn't exist, that's the "problem".

Actually it does, but in this game we carry it around with us.

People can't see the wood for the trees sometimes.

Those are called bags. If you don't know the difference between bags and banks, I can't help you.

I don't need help Blackwidow, unlike some 'players'.

Once you stop using a bank as personal storage and instead use your character's personal storage as their bank and only use the account bank for items you share with your account characters, banking is perfectly manageable.

Or you can carry on using semantics as an excuse for the fact you can't manage simple problem-solving.

"Once you stop using a bank as personal storage...."

This made me smile.

"instead use your character's personal storage as their bank..."

This made me laugh.

Nazon_Katts

It's unneccesarily inconvenient. You can have all professions on one char and can manage inventory with multiple mules just fine, that's true.

But where's the difference to "people will roll just Alts to have all professions available to them, so we allow to them all on one char" then? Following this logic nothing forbids more storage space on a single character. Unless you wish to monetize it.

Lodestar

KariTR wrote: »

Blackwidow wrote: »

KariTR wrote: »

Laerania_ESO wrote: »

Hadria wrote: »

What's wrong with it?

Personal bank doesn't exist, that's the "problem".

Actually it does, but in this game we carry it around with us.

People can't see the wood for the trees sometimes.

Those are called bags. If you don't know the difference between bags and banks, I can't help you.

I don't need help Blackwidow, unlike some 'players'.

Once you stop using a bank as personal storage and instead use your character's personal storage as their bank and only use the account bank for items you share with your account characters, banking is perfectly manageable.

Or you can carry on using semantics as an excuse for the fact you can't manage simple problem-solving.

That is what we are trying to do.

Blackwidow

Nazon_Katts wrote: »

It's unneccesarily inconvenient. You can have all professions on one char and can manage inventory with multiple mules just fine, that's true.

But where's the difference to "people will roll just Alts to have all professions available to them, so we allow to them all on one char" then? Following this logic nothing forbids more storage space on a single character. Unless you wish to monetize it.

I did not understand that bold sentence.

Eivar

Blackwidow wrote: »

Nazon_Katts wrote: »

It's unneccesarily inconvenient. You can have all professions on one char and can manage inventory with multiple mules just fine, that's true.

But where's the difference to "people will roll just Alts to have all professions available to them, so we allow to them all on one char" then? Following this logic nothing forbids more storage space on a single character. Unless you wish to monetize it.

I did not understand that bold sentence.

Lol yeah, that didn't make sense to me either.

Tannakaobi

KariTR wrote: »

Once you stop using a bank as personal storage and instead use your character's personal storage as their bank and only use the account bank for items you share with your account characters, banking is perfectly manageable.

That's kind of the problem, even just reading that sentence took more time than I want to put into the bank/storage system.

Put simply, messing around organizing stuff just ain't fun, that time could be spent hacking off limbs and tea bagging Ebonheart Pact players.

Nazon_Katts

Blackwidow wrote: »

Nazon_Katts wrote: »

It's unneccesarily inconvenient. You can have all professions on one char and can manage inventory with multiple mules just fine, that's true.

But where's the difference to "people will roll just Alts to have all professions available to them, so we allow to them all on one char" then? Following this logic nothing forbids more storage space on a single character. Unless you wish to monetize it.

I did not understand that bold sentence.

Too long in the sun, I suppose...

Anyways, that's the statement from ZOS. Allow all professions on a single char, because people do it anyways on Alts. So why not have all needed inventory on one character, people do it anyways on Alts here, too.

Hope now it's tad bit clearer what I tried getting at. Been even longer in sun now, tho. I feel crabtastic!

indytims_ESO

Blackwidow wrote: »

ZOS, please just say something. Anything.

Is there any plans for a change at all?

As many have already told you - Zeni owes no explanation for this. You have plenty of storage. If you can't deal - there are other games that offer more.

It's a simple concept. Expecting Zeni to come to the forums to address every single nitpicking question is petulant, at best, especially when there is nothing wrong with the system in place. Your personal desire for more space is not a 'critical' issue, and your demand for a personal response is silly.

Take their silence as a clue that 'storage' isn't even on their radar, and move on. The game has far larger issues to deal with than a vocal minority wanting more hoarding-space. They've provided ways to expand your inventory, and if you've applied those and STILL need space, then that's on you - not them.