Overall Gameplay too difficult?

Pausekey

Making melee/stamina builds viable would go along way to help players complaining of difficulty problems.

Interesting to see all the people who switched from lotro here. I also switched , and for many of the same reasons. The content became a complete joke, with just about any raid/dungeon able to be severely undermanned. I do not want to see that happen to this game.

It is a slippery slope, first calling for all landscape mobs to be easily soloed. Then, when casual players see the nice gear that raiders have they cry foul. They want it to, and after a while raid difficulty is nerfed. Finally, game developers realize that instead of actually making raids, they can basically just hand these top end items to players and skip the cost of having to design new content. Think this doesn't happen? Go check out lord of the rings online. I would hate to see this game go that route, and if it does then many will leave.

edu.journeymanub17_ESO

Moonchilde wrote: »

This thread has been a strange read. I signed up for this game after beta because I wanted a challenging game, that did not let in destructive F2P hordes. If this game gets easy, or goes F2P, I will likely move on. There has to be challenging games on the market, or another silent majority leaves. I don't know if Zenimax has chosen a 'target market' yet, since the product isn't finished. But I really hope its not the "I click this and win" market. No offense, that is a perfectly valid playstyle, I just think we as players need to know that we found the right game and are getting what we pay for.

You are talking about VR zones, right?

I'm asking just because there are a lot of people that don't read the OP.

There are other questions that would bring some more light and reinforce your post, if you don't mind answering:

You read the OP and know that despise the title saying "overall" he is talking about veteran zones experience, mostly out of Craglorn, tell me, please, if you have a veteran Char, what VR level?

You leveled in the veteran zones before the Craglorn patch and is unaware of the mistake that was made changing the HP/DPS on all mobs over the VR zones and that was supposed to be fixed in the hotfix they implemented in the day after Craglorn patch?

You leveled your veteran Char in Craglorn anomalies/bosses/burial etc farming and think it is just as challenging as you like?

Nova Sky

Some fights in the 1-50 portion of the game have been difficult and aggravating. But I've stuck with it because I like the overall ES universe — the exploration, the lore and even most of the fights.

Now, though, I've reached Mannimarco in the main storyline and ... well, suffice to say, he's horribly powerful. The battle is rated at level 40, but I'm higher than that, and I'm lucky if I can get him down to 25 percent of his health before he simply outlasts me.

I'm going to try some different approaches, but I've done that several times already with no change to the outcome (defeat). I've got maybe three or four more up my sleeve, but after that, well, heck, I don't know what I'll do. Pointless to keep a sub in a situation like that.

gladen5rwb17_ESO

Nyswar wrote: »

Lunerdog wrote: »

The more of these threads I read the more it becomes apparent that some people can't see past the end of their nostrils.

The folks that keep saying it's not to difficult and L2P blah blah blah, if that's the way you like to play then that's fine for you, it's not fine however for others so stop being so damned selfish and try thinking of someone apart from yourself for a change.

Everybody is paying the same amount of money and everybody has the right to play the role that they choose, the way that they choose.

I can mostly cope with the difficulty, but it's so blasted tiresome at times that it becomes pure drudgery and puts some people off playing, me included.

Have difficult content available for those that want it by all means, but there's no reason for every area to be a crapstorm of difficult combat.

The difficulty isn't overtuned. If you're dying on an encounter (assuming you have a group when needed), it's because you're not using the combat mechanics properly.

Is it frustrating to die? Sure, sometimes it is. But is it boring to have a game where players don't feel any sense of accomplishment after a fight because they never had to do anything except stand in front of the enemy and spam the same ability over and over? Absolutely. There is absolutely no encounter in this game that is "too" difficult. Challenge is good, and many of us really prefer having to pay attention when fighting.

Yes, I feel I have accomplished so much after killing those three trash mobs. Seriously, if you are going to present an valid argument, make sure the content you are discussing is worthy of it. Which is the entire point of the OP in the first place isn't it? Open world mobs. Trash.

Whilst roaming the outdoors one can come across a mob that warrants great care and skill to kill, but to turn a corner and get beaten to death because that flower over there needed picking is not an accomplishment, it is a bloody nuisance.

edu.journeymanub17_ESO

Nova Sky wrote: »

Some fights in the 1-50 portion of the game have been difficult and aggravating. But I've stuck with it because I like the overall ES universe — the exploration, the lore and even most of the fights.

Now, though, I've reached Mannimarco in the main storyline and ... well, suffice to say, he's horribly powerful. The battle is rated at level 40, but I'm higher than that, and I'm lucky if I can get him down to 25 percent of his health before he simply outlasts me.

I'm going to try some different approaches, but I've done that several times already with no change to the outcome (defeat). I've got maybe three or four more up my sleeve, but after that, well, heck, I don't know what I'll do. Pointless to keep a sub in a situation like that.

That fight is scripted, just get rid of all adds until the NPC (Abnur Tharn, if I'm not mistaken) tells you to hit him.

NerfEverything

The game isn't too hard unless you are playing a broken class (Templar).

Obscure

In my opinion there's no such thing as "too hard". There's impossible, hard, and easy, with little room for gray areas between. They make the hard content hard because that is how a player learns. Make it any less than hard and it becomes meaningless. The only things worth putting in the time in doing are difficult to do; it's the difficulty in achievement that makes it an actual achievement. It's one thing to say you went to mount Everest and a whole different thing to say you summited mount Everest.

You are not entitled to be good at ESO. You are not entitled to beat ESO. You are not entitled to solo specifically difficult end game content in ESO. Those are achievements reserved for those who possess the ability to earn them. If nothing is hard to do you will not improve, and that's just the way it is for everything in life. At first it's hard, then you get better, then it becomes routine until something else comes along to challenge you once again. Without difficulty nothing is a rewarding experience, and nothing is too hard, you're just not good enough to do it yet. Patience, practice, and persistence are the virtues of the skilled. Pleading, pouting, and procrastination are the qualities of the unskilled. When you learned to ride a bike it was hard to do, but you would never have learned if you simply gave up and cried at the internet about how gravity is "too hard".

It's not elitism, it's realism. You want a rewarding experience, then it must be a difficult experience. If you want an easy/casual experience, stick to easy/casual content... or games with a mode specifically tailored to be easy.

Sakiri

"Challenge" belongs in group content.

"Challenge" is subjective. What you find a challenge is someone elses brick wall.

Challenges are supposed to feel rewarding when completed. Killing that trash pack that almost killed me just to move on to the next isnt rewarding. Its a tedious pain in the ass.

Most of us are here for Elder Scrolls, you know, the game that thrives on story, freedom of playstyle and the mod community? Not its difficulty rating.

I honestly thought this game would be the one to pull me out of wow. Id rather take half a raif of pugs through heroic Garrosh than slog through VR content. After this pair of alts gets through to 50, Im pprobably donre until they get their act together.

I came here to play with a 10 year eq2 vet with skill issues that was sold on Elder Scrolls, not some arbitrary difficulty, that cant finish Halls of Torment. Hes 13 levels over the quest, melee templar, getting his face shredded despite help.

Our plan was to do VR content together. He cant even get there. Ive got two others sitting in VR waiting. Two more upcoming. BF quit because VR is a slogfest. Much of my guild quit because its a slogfest.

They need to man up and tell one party or the other to get lost, cut their losses and move on. We were sold on one thing, given another, they refuse to acknowledge any of it outside empty promises with no detailed plan of action... youre planning changes to VR. Great. Give us some damn details. Gear, stats. None of it is relavent when it feels like a glass statuette wearing toilet paper and weilding a pillow going up against brawlers and enemy sharpshooters behind reinforced brick walls.

Its bs and if were all supposed to quit, they should just tell us rather than milk us like cattle on promises of carrots.

GreySix

martinhpb16_ESO wrote: »

Dayv wrote: »

This is an issue that keeps coming up on these forums again and again. If it isn't the biggest make or break issue this game has, it's certainly up there. There are people deserting because of it. I also acknowledge that there are some players seem to like this difficulty (I can't fathom why) but it's really about time ZoS addressed it. Either saying they intend to keep things this level of difficulty or they're going to make it more accessible for average players and tone it down. They know that this is an issue but keep sitting on the fence by alluding to upcoming changes to VR but mention nothing about the difficulty level. I just can't see this working on consoles the way it is now. It's about time ZOS gave us some feedback.

So you don't want any challenge just faceroll everything?

Logical fallacy: Straw Man. Where did Martin argue that he wanted to "faceroll" everything?

AngryNord

GreySix wrote: »

Logical fallacy: Straw Man. Where did Martin argue that he wanted to "faceroll" everything?

In the fanbois' heads.

tyliout

Just cancelled my subscription vet level is just a annoying chore to play

Sakiri

GreySix wrote: »

martinhpb16_ESO wrote: »

Dayv wrote: »

This is an issue that keeps coming up on these forums again and again. If it isn't the biggest make or break issue this game has, it's certainly up there. There are people deserting because of it. I also acknowledge that there are some players seem to like this difficulty (I can't fathom why) but it's really about time ZoS addressed it. Either saying they intend to keep things this level of difficulty or they're going to make it more accessible for average players and tone it down. They know that this is an issue but keep sitting on the fence by alluding to upcoming changes to VR but mention nothing about the difficulty level. I just can't see this working on consoles the way it is now. It's about time ZOS gave us some feedback.

So you don't want any challenge just faceroll everything?

Logical fallacy: Straw Man. Where did Martin argue that he wanted to "faceroll" everything?

"Faceroll": not have to methodically plan trash pulls.

poodlemasterb16_ESO

My favorite game, Stalker, is very dangerous everywhere. Newbies often don't even know why they died and rage quits are very common.

A lot of us think it is the best video game ever made and it's at least partly because it's so damn dangerous. Once you can play the game you only fight what you have to because you could easily die. I play ESO like that and I'm doing just fine.

KariTR

DrPainZA wrote: »

Only started in the VR zone now, but now a feeling of impending doom is washing over me

Oh don't worry. A couple of months ago it was "wait till you get to Coldharbour" and you survived that OK, didn't you?

Sakiri

edu.journeymanub17_ESO wrote: »

Nova Sky wrote: »

Some fights in the 1-50 portion of the game have been difficult and aggravating. But I've stuck with it because I like the overall ES universe — the exploration, the lore and even most of the fights.

Now, though, I've reached Mannimarco in the main storyline and ... well, suffice to say, he's horribly powerful. The battle is rated at level 40, but I'm higher than that, and I'm lucky if I can get him down to 25 percent of his health before he simply outlasts me.

I'm going to try some different approaches, but I've done that several times already with no change to the outcome (defeat). I've got maybe three or four more up my sleeve, but after that, well, heck, I don't know what I'll do. Pointless to keep a sub in a situation like that.

That fight is scripted, just get rid of all adds until the NPC (Abnur Tharn, if I'm not mistaken) tells you to hit him.

They're talking about the level 40 Mannimarco fight, not the level 20 Castle of Worms.

GreySix

Sakiri wrote: »

edu.journeymanub17_ESO wrote: »

Nova Sky wrote: »

Some fights in the 1-50 portion of the game have been difficult and aggravating. But I've stuck with it because I like the overall ES universe — the exploration, the lore and even most of the fights.

Now, though, I've reached Mannimarco in the main storyline and ... well, suffice to say, he's horribly powerful. The battle is rated at level 40, but I'm higher than that, and I'm lucky if I can get him down to 25 percent of his health before he simply outlasts me.

I'm going to try some different approaches, but I've done that several times already with no change to the outcome (defeat). I've got maybe three or four more up my sleeve, but after that, well, heck, I don't know what I'll do. Pointless to keep a sub in a situation like that.

That fight is scripted, just get rid of all adds until the NPC (Abnur Tharn, if I'm not mistaken) tells you to hit him.

They're talking about the level 40 Mannimarco fight, not the level 20 Castle of Worms.

Well, wife and I are Level 30, but we're avoiding that, since it's a forced-solo instance.

We're ignoring forced-solo instances, on principle alone.

Caroloces

If you want to experience true despair and misery in a game, play Dark Souls for awhile. Then come back to ESO and it will feel like a walk in the park (that's an exaggeration).

I, for one, like the fact that there are some elements in ESO that remind me of Dark Souls. I love the palpable sense of fear in facing an enemy, and the sheer sense of triumph when you defeat him, and knowing that your skillful maneuvering and tactical combat played a key role.

It is probably true, however, that pursuing quests, exploring, and crafting should have the same degree of emphasis that the brutal combat has in the veteran levels. I think the ideal lies in a world where a player can go about doing what he or she wishes and still level up, but there are certain areas where true terror lies, and the rewards for confronting that terror are magnificent!!!

Nova Sky

Sakiri wrote: »

edu.journeymanub17_ESO wrote: »

Nova Sky wrote: »

Some fights in the 1-50 portion of the game have been difficult and aggravating. But I've stuck with it because I like the overall ES universe — the exploration, the lore and even most of the fights.

Now, though, I've reached Mannimarco in the main storyline and ... well, suffice to say, he's horribly powerful. The battle is rated at level 40, but I'm higher than that, and I'm lucky if I can get him down to 25 percent of his health before he simply outlasts me.

I'm going to try some different approaches, but I've done that several times already with no change to the outcome (defeat). I've got maybe three or four more up my sleeve, but after that, well, heck, I don't know what I'll do. Pointless to keep a sub in a situation like that.

That fight is scripted, just get rid of all adds until the NPC (Abnur Tharn, if I'm not mistaken) tells you to hit him.

They're talking about the level 40 Mannimarco fight, not the level 20 Castle of Worms.

Precisely.

I've abandoned the fight for now. So, back out in the world, I've repaired all of my light armor, reforged some of the spidersilk armor into ebonthread armor where I could, and infused the ebonthread with traits that improve armor resistance by 4 to 6 percent, depending on the piece.

I also plan to feed 3 to 4 times — yes, I'm a vampire DPS sorcerer — before going back into the quest, and I will also bring along several armor repair kits and filled soul gems (to recharged depleted weapons/armor). Combine that with whole lot of hope that, between the improvements and different strategies I intend to invoke, it'll be enough to outlast Mannimarco.

If not ... sigh, well, I'll cross *that* bridge when the time comes.

steveb16_ESO46

Sakiri wrote: »

"Faceroll": not have to methodically plan trash pulls.

"Well okay then...": The act of making up your own meaning to words and thinking that proves what you think it proves rather than something else entirely.

Dayv

charles.cavanaughub17_ESO wrote: »

It is probably true, however, that pursuing quests, exploring, and crafting should have the same degree of emphasis that the brutal combat has in the veteran levels. I think the ideal lies in a world where a player can go about doing what he or she wishes and still level up, but there are certain areas where true terror lies, and the rewards for confronting that terror are magnificent!!!

I think when you find yourself dying all the time to trash mobs it's no longer a fear, it's just a boring occupation hazard and takes away from the encounters where you should be getting more excited.

Valije

I dont think it is too hard, just hard. I play a NB with bow (pretty useless unless you try to kill single mobs) and DW. Right now the NB is VR3 and can do 3 group mobs unless the skills dont work (which is not rare). My armor is green, lvling up light armor with no special enchants or properties, and the only skillpoints in armor were in medium.

I love the exploring bit and the Lore. The world is finely crafted and I dont mind leveling in a slow pace (I even take my time to take NPC screenshots and contributing to one of the biggest ESO wikis), and play it like a FPS (even when some people in the forums think I am crazy for playing this way)

The problem is no the difficulty of the mobs, but the state of the game right now. My main gripe are:

- Unbalanced. First time I was in Vet zone I entered the crow's dungeon and was about, "wow, they were right. Vet will be a PITA". I did not notice it was a group dungeon because there was a sorc facerolling everything and picking in 2 groups of spawning wolfs because 1 group was not fast enough. This is the kind of unbalance I really hate... and people who then say L2P at first and then cry when they balance a bit and "his class is now broken"

- LAG. I play in the EU server from EU. It is hard to fight when they had already hit you before you get a chance to move out. My build depends on mobility, but right now is just frustrating. Most of my kill are because of this.

- Broken skills. I want the game to be difficult, not unreliable.

I understand people want easier games. Games from some years ago were definitely more difficult untile the "next generation" of consoles kicked in (I mean the last "next gen", not the actual one). Some of the games I play have a VERY STEEP learning curve: rFactor 2, Arma 3... but for the same reason they are as niche as they can be without being bankrupt. An AAA game needs to be approachable and just work.

LonePirate

charles.cavanaughub17_ESO wrote: »

It is probably true, however, that pursuing quests, exploring, and crafting should have the same degree of emphasis that the brutal combat has in the veteran levels. I think the ideal lies in a world where a player can go about doing what he or she wishes and still level up, but there are certain areas where true terror lies, and the rewards for confronting that terror are magnificent!!!

Defeating a VR trash mob of three shouldn't require the skills of a master tactician and an enormous amount of luck. Unfortunately, both of those are required in the VR zones now. I face a greater chance of death against an ordinary trash mob than I do against any boss in the VR zones and that is the result of a very badly designed game. There is nothing wrong with the difficulty of the bosses. All of the problems are with the trash mobs which are anything but trash in this game.

What's worse is that VR quest rewards are often garbage. I can craft better stuff in most cases and the gold received is not proportional to the time and effort involved, especially compared to the quests in Cyrodiil.

VR trash mobs need to be nerfed by 20-50%. Buff bosses by 10-20% to compensate just to shut up the unsatisfiable hardcore gamers, even though some of them would complain about the unkillable Dremora at the Imperial City bridges being too easy.

Ulalume

If casual gamers have trouble leveling through the vet zones then the content is too hard and needs to be adjusted. It's great that some like the difficulty, but if you're reading these forums and posting here you're most likely not a casual gamer.

I'd really like to see this game do well and for that it needs a growing playerbase.

ArRashid

Nova Sky wrote: »

Some fights in the 1-50 portion of the game have been difficult and aggravating. But I've stuck with it because I like the overall ES universe — the exploration, the lore and even most of the fights.

Now, though, I've reached Mannimarco in the main storyline and ... well, suffice to say, he's horribly powerful. The battle is rated at level 40, but I'm higher than that, and I'm lucky if I can get him down to 25 percent of his health before he simply outlasts me.

I'm going to try some different approaches, but I've done that several times already with no change to the outcome (defeat). I've got maybe three or four more up my sleeve, but after that, well, heck, I don't know what I'll do. Pointless to keep a sub in a situation like that.

Did him twice, no problems here. His main spell can be avoided, his adds can't survive 2 attacks (although they are annoying since you can't CC flying mobs), most of the time your 3 companions manage to even hold aggro on him most of the fight, you generally should have a HP potion ready (unless you have a heal on your bar) and you should be good. He's easy.
Septima Tharn is even easier (if you have enough AoE dps and AoE CC - used one HP potion).
Molag Bal is a pure joke (run, shoot, self heal, repeat. In phase 2 nuke down Titan army with some AoE. In phase 3 just hold block and sit back as Molag Bal's barrage gets bounced back at him).
The only difficult parts are where you have to fight lvl 50 elite Titan on lvl ~40 (or later if you choose not to do it that soon) and bugged out harvesters (can't bash-stun harvesters casting Black Winter after 1.1.2 anymore, making it very hard NOT to get one-shot).



Well... nothing against a little higher difficulty, but VRs are just absurd sometimes.
Mobs have 2-3x more HP than player and 3-5x higher damage than player. Like if that wasn't enough, they are almost always grouped up into packs of 2-3 mobs (5-7 in public dungs, even more in group dungeons).

The sheer amount of bugs present (unable to bash half spells that deal 1000-1900 instant damage, absorb shields ignoring armor/resists/block, ....) and simply BAD class design (Nightblade, Templar) makes soloing VR content downright maliciously difficult. Small wonder ESO still have some players left. Actually no wonder that most players are DKs or Sorcs because the other 2 classes rarely even make it to half the VR..

And this "genius" player community we have here just demands that DKs and Sorcs are "brought to justice" for working where other 2 classes fail hard. Their only wish is to nerf those that work into the same mess, unable to deal with a pack of VR mobs on their own, as they are themselves. Purely out of spite.

I ask, THEN WHAT? When you make ZOS nerf DKs and Sorcs into oblivion, then what? Next thing you do will be asking for giant nerfs to VR difficulty, because noone will be able to do solo content then? Hm? Great logic you have there..


Also, almost every other MMORPG allows player to be OP as hell - take WoW or SWTOR, where you can take on half map of mobs alone and survive. Compare that to ESO. You are on average 3x weaker than an average mob. You are ONLY allowed to survive out of pity, because devs didn't implement harder AI (aka ability chaining, shielding, blocking, .. and yet, most of us are getting decimated by sheer damage of VR mob's light attacks that take away 20%+ HP even though block each..)

Alphashado

This is tried and true:

Dungeons - Challenging.
Heroic Dungeons - Very Challenging
Raids - Very Challenging
Group objectives in general - Challenging/Very Challenging
Trash mobs and solo quest mobs - low to moderate challenge


And ^that^ is the glaring discrepancy in ESO.

In every other AAA MMO, casual gamers just avoided all the challenging stuff and stuck with questing. And they are fine with that. Hardcore gamers stuck with group content and for the most part, they are fine with that. There is grumbling from both sides of the isle, but at least there is a nich for everyone's playstyle.

There is no nich here for casuals. None. What - so - ever.
And at the end of the day, subscriptions will speak for themselves. They already are. If you doubt it, then just open any guild's roster and look at all the inactive accounts.

aleister

martinhpb16_ESO wrote: »

So you don't want any challenge just faceroll everything?

I enjoy challenge in bosses and other uncommon encounters, but yes, actually some of the trash mob pulls should be pretty much a faceroll at this stage. As it stands, nearly every 3-mob encounter is a white-knuckle event that takes too much time and effort for the paltry reward.

Dayv

Alphashado wrote: »

This is tried and true:

Dungeons - Challenging.
Heroic Dungeons - Very Challenging
Raids - Very Challenging
Group objectives in general - Challenging/Very Challenging
Trash mobs and solo quest mobs - low to moderate challenge

............................................. ^^^^
And if you want people to "L2P", this is a much better environment for it.

edit: little arrows above the "this", to clarify I mean the environment Alphashado is describing not ESO.

Paladin_echo1

The only problem I have is that the Veteran mobs are just about as powerful as the mobs as when you go into a group dungeon. You can take one or two, but after that you have an extremely high chance of death. I was very careful to level in some areas.

And with the price of armor repairs at the moment I am grinding naked to make up my costs. Strangely this is working out when I grind in the lower areas with 1 vs 1or2. Then the cost of the reskill and restat .

Valije

I dont think sorc o dk should be "useless" like NB or templar, but balancing is needed. Group dungeons should be only doable by groups or by very rare talented people, not by run off the mill players like it happens now. Just wait at the start of any public group dungeon and you will see my point.

Arundo

Dayv wrote: »

Alphashado wrote: »

This is tried and true:

Dungeons - Challenging.
Heroic Dungeons - Very Challenging
Raids - Very Challenging
Group objectives in general - Challenging/Very Challenging
Trash mobs and solo quest mobs - low to moderate challenge

And if you want people to "L2P", this is a much better environment for it.

No it isnt people will just stop playing. What remains is a select group of hardcore gamers. The tip of the pyramid, which will not be enough to valid two megaservers and regular content. Then the hardcore gamers leave due to lack of new stuff as hardcore gamers burn through content much quicker. There wont be any new content due to lack of funds.

Game dead.