Overall Gameplay too difficult?

ScardyFox

Sakiri wrote: »

ScardyFox wrote: »

I simply don't agree. This is not a hard game - in fact they don't make hard MMOs anymore. Tweak your build, get more skills to be flexible in more encounters, or practice....

I don't know what to say thats helpful, but it certainly isn't a hard game.

Again, difficulty is subjective.

I dont find it difficult, I find it a boring, grindy slogfest.

And Ive quit plenty of those. Theyre called "Korean grinders". Might like one of those more, you would.

There are baselines to go by, other wise no one would ever have anything to talk about because it would all be "subjective".

And why are you bringing up Korean games and my possible like for them when I have said nothing about them whatsoever?

Lizelle

There are several things at play here that make things seem more difficult than they probably are.

1. Combat mechanics - People aren't used to having to block/dodge/interrupt or DIE. You have to learn to watch for the cues. Also some cues are really hard to see when mobs and/or players are grouped up. UI changes might help here. Something that is more obvious even when spell effects/people/mobs are everywhere.

2. Lack of Combat Information - The death recap helps a little but a combat log would be more valuable. You can't build a sound strategy without good info about what went wrong. Defining what went wrong often requires more info than what hit you just before you died.

3. Uninformed Players - Guessing at what didn't work leads to a proliferation of misinformation and arbitrary requirements. Which makes things seem more black and white than they probably are. E.G. "You have to have X skill or you can't win!"

Honestly I don't believe ESO is too hard for casuals, I think people just need more information about what's actually happening so they can understand what is required to beat an encounter.

KariTR

More hyberbole from those claiming the content is too hard - "groups of mobs every 2 feet". No, there really isn't. If you want your points to be heard, then stop making stuff up.

As for the other comment about only theorycraft players not finding it too hard, you couldn't be more wrong. Mind you, I don't play the numbers game at all, so no add-ons here to tell me the health pool of the current mob(s) I am up against. And that is half the problem I suspect. Some of you are using psychological warfare against yourselves! Lose the add-ons.

Let's also lose this mentality of enemy mobs being 'trash'. Mobs in a game are already gimped by AI - see how they stand around just waiting for a dagger in the back? - why should they be one-hit kills too? No game in history will be remembered fondly for being easy.

mad.ferretb16_ESO

Overall gameplay no. I think it's too easy TBH you level quicker than you can craft gear mostly. Maybe the VR stuff I can't really comment on that yet but I'm sure it can't be that bad.

Chermaine

mad.ferretb16_ESO wrote: »

Overall gameplay no. I think it's too easy TBH you level quicker than you can craft gear mostly. Maybe the VR stuff I can't really comment on that yet but I'm sure it can't be that bad.

O boy your in for a treat when you reach VR zones.

And yes I do believe the VR zones are too hard and frustrating. The rest of the game is fine. 1-50 is ok how it should be. Dungeons and Raids can be hard as those are for grouping and getting your team to preform the best.

But the VR zones should be easier, for those who breezed through the VR content you are a small part of the playerbase. Now the casuals start to come to the VR zones and they will be put off and leave. If that happens the hardcore playerbase cant keep this game financial healthy.

So please stop saying the mandatory content is easy, you are just putting off the casual even more to a point they will leave and your game will go belly up.

Hilgara

the game will have a normal distribution of oppinions regarding difficulty. Some will find it too hard and will complain. Some will find it too easy and also may complain. some will find it ok and wont complain. which group do you desing the game for? those that make the most noise or those just getting on enjoying the game. The game is probably a little above standard MMO difficulty but is that really a bad thing? Lots of us old schoolers complain that everything is too easy nowadays. I stopped playing WoW becase they pandered to the whiney minority who just wanted to be able to blitz content. No need for carefully planned pulls using cc and a prooer kill order. just aoe the whole room. i hope eso doesnt go that way.
As for nornal trash mobs in open world game play. Yeah, they can be tough. especially for my NB but that makes the game much more of a test of stratergy that a test of how big my sword is. If you could just run through the open world mobs then they just become scenery. They have to pose a significant threat to maintain the immersion of a dangerous environment to be in.

Dayv

indytims_ESO wrote: »

Crafting - while interesting to a point - is entirely too easy. I made it to Provisioning 50 in a matter of a couple hours, and if I can do it, any monkey with a keyboard can. Being max in a crafting skill means nothing, really, except that you don't have to track down a crafter to make your own stuff.

Provisioning is at chore at VR since you have to go back to Coldharbour to find ingredients, and this again is indicative of the fact that VR was scaled thoughtlessly.

steveb16_ESO46

Hilgara wrote: »

the game will have a normal distribution of oppinions regarding difficulty. Some will find it too hard and will complain. Some will find it too easy and also may complain. some will find it ok and wont complain. which group do you desing the game for?

The one who financially you most cannot afford to lose. Knowing which group that is, is the trick. But I would be surprised if the group of completely hard core who would leave if VR was made much less challenging was even a quarter of the size of the opposite.

Dayv

rbenkepub19_ESO wrote: »

V2 here. No, I don't think the game is too hard. I like the fact that I have to give some thought to how to take should ltiple mobs, and that sometimes I'll fail the first time. I get frustrated, even angry sometimes, but that comes with the territory of playing a challenging game. I found the fight with Molag Bal to be very difficult. I had to stop, take stock of my strategy, experiment with several changes to my toolbar, and try a half dozen different tactics. It took me a good ten or twelve tries. On every try I cussed and fumed and loudly accused God and Zenimax of having it out for me. But when it was over...man, what a sense of accomplishment. I am totally satisfied with the difficulty level of this game exactly as it is.

I've defeated Molag Bal twice now and didn't break into a sweat either time. That was meant to be a challenge, but VR trash mobs are different. Should they really demand so much effort to get through, when VR bosses are often much easier to deal with?

Uviryth

I dont get it. Where is this difficult content you guys talk about?
I now quested to VR9 and have yet to encounter anything I would describe as difficult (besides soloing groupcontent).

Hilgara

steveb16_ESO46 wrote: »

Hilgara wrote: »

the game will have a normal distribution of oppinions regarding difficulty. Some will find it too hard and will complain. Some will find it too easy and also may complain. some will find it ok and wont complain. which group do you desing the game for?

The one who financially you most cannot afford to lose. Knowing which group that is, is the trick. But I would be surprised if the group of completely hard core who would leave if VR was made much less challenging was even a quarter of the size of the opposite.

i dont agree that everyone who is managing the vet content is hardcore. all those many thousands who made it past Mannimarco amd Molog Bal wernt all hardcore. the people i see happily leveling through vet content every day arent all hardcore. I'm a casual player. i dont do much raiding or even dungeons. you cant label everyone hardcore simply becase they are finding the game easier than you

KariTR

Uviryth wrote: »

I dont get it. Where is this difficult content you guys talk about?
I now quested to VR9 and have yet to encounter anything I would describe as difficult (besides soloing groupcontent).

A bit of bandwagoning after the error when Craglorn was implemented maybe? I certainly don't remember seeing complaints before that glitch (which was corrected pretty quickly as I understand it), certainly not to this level.

@Chermaine, then perhaps ZOS should make 1-50 a little more challenging overall so there is less disparity between 'normal' and veteran ranks. Of course then we would upset the altaholics and the genuine casual players. And in case you're wondering, I mean casual players to be those that are not interested in endgame per se and are happy to experience all of the factions content on Level 1-50 characters.

Captainbristol0

One word "Wisps"

Bloody things are a pain in the arse.

AngryNord

Wisps? PITA? Nah... 2-3 rounds of Biting Jabs, and some whacks With the Axe, and they're gone. Might be different on VR of course...

claytonjhouserb14_ESO

For those you continue to post about it being easy but have not made it there yet please hold that horse of yours and experience before making a comment you may regret.

The big point is not only can it be too bloody difficult but it isn't fun it's worse than a chore, I literally prefer to go clean my house and mow 5 lawns then have to sit through my character being slaughtered through a quest that was meant to be solo'd. Yes, I can do it and yes I can learn from my mistakes but when it takes 6-7 deaths for a couple of scampy trash I just don't find that fun nor rewarding. A quest line that takes up my night just to get a kiss on the cheek and an item I won't use? No thank you.

KariTR

AngryNord wrote: »

Wisps? PITA? Nah... 2-3 rounds of Biting Jabs, and some whacks With the Axe, and they're gone. Might be different on VR of course...

Haha, no I agree with Captain, Wisps are a pain at any level. I think it's the mind trying to be more accurate than we need to be when 'targetting' (I don't use the tab system or AOE), so each fight with a wisp is "come here you little bugger", "where is it going now?!", "oops"

Chermaine

KariTR wrote: »

Uviryth wrote: »

I dont get it. Where is this difficult content you guys talk about?
I now quested to VR9 and have yet to encounter anything I would describe as difficult (besides soloing groupcontent).

@Chermaine, then perhaps ZOS should make 1-50 a little more challenging overall so there is less disparity between 'normal' and veteran ranks. Of course then we would upset the altaholics and the genuine casual players. And in case you're wondering, I mean casual players to be those that are not interested in endgame per se and are happy to experience all of the factions content on Level 1-50 characters.

Since when is reaching max level end game ?
What are you trying to do here ? End game is Raiding and Veteran Dungeons not leveling to the max level, or is this you first MMO you ever played ?

Again for those you say its not hard, you are amazing truly. But your are not the majority, the majority is mostly silent and is leaving this game by the dozens. Check your guilds and see the exodus happening. Then check the forums and search on VR, you will get tonnes of post regarding them.

So again stop the "there nothing wrong" comments.

You all sound like this guy...

Nathano

Chermaine wrote: »

So again stop the "there nothing wrong" comments.

You all sound like this guy...

Very true
It's all very well saying that you have had no problem in veteran content but ignoring the fact that the majority are struggling through the content is just sticking your head in the sand. Zenimax seem to be catering to the minority and need to understand this before the majority get frustrated and quit.

Hilgara

Chermaine wrote: »

KariTR wrote: »

Uviryth wrote: »

I dont get it. Where is this difficult content you guys talk about?
I now quested to VR9 and have yet to encounter anything I would describe as difficult (besides soloing groupcontent).

@Chermaine, then perhaps ZOS should make 1-50 a little more challenging overall so there is less disparity between 'normal' and veteran ranks. Of course then we would upset the altaholics and the genuine casual players. And in case you're wondering, I mean casual players to be those that are not interested in endgame per se and
So again stop the "there nothing wrong"

No! stop the whining. The difficulty is about the only thing they got right. If you continualy scale difficulty to those always complaining its too hard you end up with another wow where everything is geared to the least skilled players. if you arent getting a few complaints about dffculty its too easy!

Chermaine

Hilgara wrote: »

No! stop the whining. The difficulty is about the only thing they got right. If you continualy scale difficulty to those always complaining its too hard you end up with another wow where everything is geared to the least skilled players. if you arent getting a few complaints about dffculty its too easy!

If it were a few complaints you might have some sort of valid point. But thats not the case. So your point is misplaced as is your "whining" comment.

Perhaps you should learn to discuss in a mature way instead of constant childish comments and name calling.

steveb16_ESO46

Hilgara wrote: »

i dont agree that everyone who is managing the vet content is hardcore. all those many thousands who made it past Mannimarco amd Molog Bal wernt all hardcore. the people i see happily leveling through vet content every day arent all hardcore. I'm a casual player. i dont do much raiding or even dungeons. you cant label everyone hardcore simply becase they are finding the game easier than you

Hey man, no offence but we're in one of the same guilds and we've played together and you're totally hard core. And I respect you for that. You really know what you're doing, you work hard at all aspects of the game and that all pays off. You're extremely good and you're extremely motivated. You're a top notch player.

I was like that in LOTRO for a long time. My Hunter was one of those all tricked out, how the hell do you do that kind of toons which I had played for 5 years. no alts. I really knew how to play that hunter and yes, I'd get a little peeved (along with the other 2 officers) at having to carry other guild members through more difficult content because they were pretty casual players

The difference was that in LOTRO everyone else didn't have to be that focused to get anywhere and that's the problem here. Once you hit VR it demands a focus, dedication and commitment that stops the game being fun for a lot of people.

It's compounded by the build issues and further compounded by the group phasing that so often prevents friends from helping out.

It's the fault of the game design that this is a problem. The access to being competitive in PvP, the access to skyshards for character development and access to effective participation in the end-game content is gated through by the VR questing people find difficult and boring.

That's just very bad design. It's like if in LOTRO they'd gated access to Moria behind being able to run all the moria raids first, with the trash mobs able to 2-shot you and players who had run the raids before being unable to join the group.

Instead it kept the real hard core raiding stuff as both voluntary and easy to group up for.

And you don't get to decide what's too difficult and boring to be fun. That's up to the individual.

Only 2 questions remain - what will people who find VR too difficult do? Will they quit or will they sub? And if they quit what impact that has on the viability of ESO.

It simply does not matter what you think of these players. It simply does not matter if you find VR easy or not. It is simply what is going to be the cumulative impact of the design decisions on the financial sustainability.

It might have none, it might be positive because there is an untapped market for what a lot of people experience (and so you don't get to argue with their assessment) as a punishing level of combat grind.

Or it might be financially negative.

I believe if a player as reasonably 'hard core' as me, a player as big an ES and initially as big an ESO fan as me (with my instant 6 month sub, fan site, glowing Amazon and Meta Critic reviews) is just going to let their sub lapse because of VR and all the related issues then the game is in a bit of trouble.

and at the risk of being boring - it does not matter what you think of my opinion on VR difficulty and my willingness to sub. That's a basic subjective fact for me. Just like for you VR is fine. What we believe isn't the issue, it's the cumulative impact on the future of the game of people's perceptions.

Like a lot of players probably - I'm not against being reasonably challenged. I simply don't for myself find risking death and huge repair bills when fighting trash mobs fun.

That's all I'm here for is to have fun and unfortunately ESO is a very focused game.

It's not like something like ArcheAge where if you either don't fancy the pvp that day you can spend a weekend building a personal clipper from scratch or something.

If I want to be VR12 and stand a chance in PvP I have to do the whole slow VR grind through the stories that make no sense, fighting grossly over-powered enemies that make no sense utilising builds and tactics that don't interest me.

It's just boring and not worth paying for, for a lot of people.

My personal belief is that the paying player base is and will continue to plummet and the game will go FTP inside of 12 months. But I may be totally and utterly wrong. I very much hope so.

Hilgara

steveb16_ESO46 wrote: »

Hilgara wrote: »

i dont agree that everyone who is managing the vet content is hardcore. all those many thousands who made it past Mannimarco amd Molog Bal wernt all hardcore. the people i see happily leveling through vet content every day arent all hardcore. I'm a casual player. i dont do much raiding or even dungeons. you cant label everyone hardcore simply becase they are finding the game easier than you

Hey man, no offence but we're in one of the same guilds and we've played together and you're totally hard core. And I respect you for that. You really know what you're doing, you work hard at all aspects of the game and that all pays off. You're extremely good and you're extremely motivated. You're a top notch player.

I was like that in LOTRO for a long time. My Hunter was one of those all tricked out, how the hell do you do that kind of toons which I had played for 5 years. no alts. I really knew how to play that hunter and yes, I'd get a little peeved (along with the other 2 officers) at having to carry other guild members through more difficult content because they were pretty casual players

The difference was that in LOTRO everyone else didn't have to be that focused to get anywhere and that's the problem here. Once you hit VR it demands a focus, dedication and commitment that stops the game being fun for a lot of people.

It's compounded by the build issues and further compounded by the group phasing that so often prevents friends from helping out.

It's the fault of the game design that this is a problem. The access to being competitive in PvP, the access to skyshards for character development and access to effective participation in the end-game content is gated through by the VR questing people find difficult and boring.

That's just very bad design. It's like if in LOTRO they'd gated access to Moria behind being able to run all the moria raids first, with the trash mobs able to 2-shot you and players who had run the raids before being unable to join the group.

Instead it kept the real hard core raiding stuff as both voluntary and easy to group up for.

And you don't get to decide what's too difficult and boring to be fun. That's up to the individual.

Only 2 questions remain - what will people who find VR too difficult do? Will they quit or will they sub? And if they quit what impact that has on the viability of ESO.

It simply does not matter what you think of these players. It simply does not matter if you find VR easy or not. It is simply what is going to be the cumulative impact of the design decisions on the financial sustainability.

It might have none, it might be positive because there is an untapped market for what a lot of people experience (and so you don't get to argue with their assessment) as a punishing level of combat grind.

Or it might be financially negative.

I believe if a player as reasonably 'hard core' as me, a player as big an ES and initially as big an ESO fan as me (with my instant 6 month sub, fan site, glowing Amazon and Meta Critic reviews) is just going to let their sub lapse because of VR and all the related issues then the game is in a bit of trouble.

and at the risk of being boring - it does not matter what you think of my opinion on VR difficulty and my willingness to sub. That's a basic subjective fact for me. Just like for you VR is fine. What we believe isn't the issue, it's the cumulative impact on the future of the game of people's perceptions.

Like a lot of players probably - I'm not against being reasonably challenged. I simply don't for myself find risking death and huge repair bills when fighting trash mobs fun.

That's all I'm here for is to have fun and unfortunately ESO is a very focused game.

It's not like something like ArcheAge where if you either don't fancy the pvp that day you can spend a weekend building a personal clipper from scratch or something.

If I want to be VR12 and stand a chance in PvP I have to do the whole slow VR grind through the stories that make no sense, fighting grossly over-powered enemies that make no sense utilising builds and tactics that don't interest me.

It's just boring and not worth paying for, for a lot of people.

My personal belief is that the paying player base is and will continue to plummet and the game will go FTP inside of 12 months. But I may be totally and utterly wrong. I very much hope so.

The game has to find a niesh. EvE has survived because it is recognised as a no compromise, highly complex and very challenging game to play will no part of the game pandering to the extremely casual players. There is room in the MMO world for a tough, challenging RPG because right now there really isn't one. I don't buy that people are leaving because of the difficulty. If you are in the same guild as me you will know that has never been given as a reason for leaving on the guild forum. Lots of other reasons maybe but never difficulty. There's a lot ZoS need to put right to keep a decent player base but it also has to decide where it wants to aim for its target audience and I think the people all demanding easier content are not the people who would be around in 12 months anyway. They will be off playing the next slash and dash, short lived, quick money sink. ESO is a subscription game and to remain so it needs a strong base of long term players who get invested in their characters and stay around for a long time. Not too many companies have pulled that one off but those that have (apart from wow) have had to find a particular niesh in the market.

steveb16_ESO46

If it can find a niche for what i'd see as 'hard core' gameplay that'd be really great.

Personally - if ESO did what it should have done - keep the challenging stuff off the main route through the game then i'd be doing as i planned and played for years.

I'm not even a casual player. I'm just made to look 'casual' by the nature of VR.

I'm usually pretty hard core but this is simply asking too much of my time and effort for too little fun in return.

I'm playing ArcheAge now and that can be totally hard core. Way more than ESO (you should sign up for the beta, I think it's just up your alley). It just allows people who don't want to be hard-core to find their own particular niche.

And i'm totally letting my sub lapse in 3 months because the difficulty means it's not fun.

Dayv

@Hilgara, Eve is hardcore in terms of potential financial losses, but it offers players content at a level of difficulty to suit their tastes, ESO doesn't offer that choice.

steveb16_ESO46

Dayv wrote: »

@Hilgara, Eve is hardcore in terms of potential financial losses, but it offers players content at a level of difficulty to suit their tastes, ESO doesn't offer that choice.

Yes. That's the issue here. I can look at the threat map in ArcheAge and make a decision on what I want to do or what risks to take. I can risk getting ganked in a war zone to make a trade run or I can go somewhere else and PvE or I can do a whole lot of other stuff. all of which advance my character in numerous ways.

In ESO I can basically do VR content and if enough people are put off enough by that to impact on the sustainability of the current financial model then that's a big problem for everyone.

Particularly the hard-core types because if FTP comes because the difficulty levels and grouping will be systematically reduced.

Alphashado

Casual players are quietly leaving, and there are a lot of them. I have seen it myself, talked to them myself, and personally had two very good friends already leave. You won't see very many of them admit that they are leaving because it's too hard for them to enjoy it because they are embarrassed and do not want to get ridiculed.

Failing to miss one block against a trash mob and dying is hardcore gaming man. leave it in the dungeons.

And please quit commenting on how easy this game is then admitting that you haven't played VR content yet.

Casual players aren't dumb or stupid. They aren't asking for tips or tricks or advice. They understand perfectly well what is required to play VR ESO and they don't enjoy it.

Marry just wants to quest her way to lvl cap and enjoy the game. She isn't interested in dungeons or raids or PvP. She has always respected the type of player that enjoyed challenging stuff like dungeons and raids and PvP, but it just wasn't her thing because she knew that it would take a lvl of gaming that she just doesn't enjoy. She doesn't want to die every time she misses a block. She doesn't want to die every time she doesn't dodge roll out of a spell. She wants to have fun and enjoy the game while being imperfect.


Does Marry have a place in ESO? No

And Marry has a lot of friends.

They all pay for subscriptions.

For Marry's sake, toss the casuals a bone. Give them something to do. Or she and her friends will just continue to leave and take their game supporting
money with them.

Ninnghizhidda

Alphashado wrote: »

Casual players are quietly leaving, and there are a lot of them. I have seen it myself, talked to them myself, and personally had two very good friends already leave. You won't see very many of them admit that they are leaving because it's too hard for them to enjoy it because they are embarrassed and do not want to get ridiculed.

Failing to miss one block against a trash mob and dying is hardcore gaming man. leave it in the dungeons.

And please quit commenting on how easy this game is then admitting that you haven't played VR content yet.

Casual players aren't dumb or stupid. They aren't asking for tips or tricks or advice. They understand perfectly well what is required to play VR ESO and they don't enjoy it.

Marry just wants to quest her way to lvl cap and enjoy the game. She isn't interested in dungeons or raids or PvP. She has always respected the type of player that enjoyed challenging stuff like dungeons and raids and PvP, but it just wasn't her thing because she knew that it would take a lvl of gaming that she just doesn't enjoy. She doesn't want to die every time she misses a block. She doesn't want to die every time she doesn't dodge roll out of a spell. She wants to have fun and enjoy the game while being imperfect.


Does Marry have a place in ESO? No

And Marry has a lot of friends.

They all pay for subscriptions.

For Marry's sake, toss the casuals a bone. Give them something to do. Or she and her friends will just continue to leave and take their game supporting
money with them.

This post is simply perfect and summarises exactly what "casuals" (yeah 'useless noobs" according to some teenage kiddos) feel more and more in ESO.

It should be pinned. And Zen staff should really read it. It reflects how many "normal" people feel (aka paying customers too).

claytonjhouserb14_ESO

I thank you for that earlier post because it fully fits what I'm trying to get out.

mad.ferretb16_ESO

What I see in a lot of posts is people thinking that VR content is 'most of the game' it really isn't...

I actually agree with the person who said that 1-50 should be scaled to VR content. That would probably be more my level of difficulty. Isn't it supposed to be difficult is t that what end-game is?

Also casual doesn't mean they don't want to do certain things in game or that they don't have any skill. It either means they don't have much time to play or like me they arnt in any sort of rush.

GreySix

mad.ferretb16_ESO wrote: »

I actually agree with the person who said that 1-50 should be scaled to VR content. That would probably be more my level of difficulty. Isn't it supposed to be difficult is t that what end-game is?

... and then you and a handful would be left, after the majority of the casual gamers cut sling. See my signature for more explanation.