Overall Gameplay too difficult?

GreySix

Arundo wrote: »

Dayv wrote: »

Alphashado wrote: »

This is tried and true:

Dungeons - Challenging.
Heroic Dungeons - Very Challenging
Raids - Very Challenging
Group objectives in general - Challenging/Very Challenging
Trash mobs and solo quest mobs - low to moderate challenge

And if you want people to "L2P", this is a much better environment for it.

No it isnt people will just stop playing. What remains is a select group of hardcore gamers. The tip of the pyramid, which will not be enough to valid two megaservers and regular content. Then the hardcore gamers leave due to lack of new stuff, due to lack of funds.

Game dead.

Concur. My signature speaks volumes in this case.

Alphashado

Dayv wrote: »

Alphashado wrote: »

This is tried and true:

Dungeons - Challenging.
Heroic Dungeons - Very Challenging
Raids - Very Challenging
Group objectives in general - Challenging/Very Challenging
Trash mobs and solo quest mobs - low to moderate challenge

And if you want people to "L2P", this is a much better environment for it.

Forcing people to play at an elite level outside of dungeons and raids is a terrible business model. And that is what we are talking about here. Cancelled subs and the future of this game.

Dayv

Arundo wrote: »

Dayv wrote: »

Alphashado wrote: »

This is tried and true:

Dungeons - Challenging.
Heroic Dungeons - Very Challenging
Raids - Very Challenging
Group objectives in general - Challenging/Very Challenging
Trash mobs and solo quest mobs - low to moderate challenge

And if you want people to "L2P", this is a much better environment for it.

No it isnt people will just stop playing. What remains is a select group of hardcore gamers. The tip of the pyramid, which will not be enough to valid two megaservers and regular content. Then the hardcore gamers leave due to lack of new stuff as hardcore gamers burn through content much quicker. There wont be any new content due to lack of funds.

Game dead.

I think you may have misunderstood me. The point I was trying to make is that in an environment (as described by Alphashado, in the post I was quoting) where there's a range of different levels of challenges, players will up their gameplay at a pace that suits them rather than being instantly put off and quit.

Alphashado

Dayv wrote: »

Arundo wrote: »

Dayv wrote: »

Alphashado wrote: »

This is tried and true:

Dungeons - Challenging.
Heroic Dungeons - Very Challenging
Raids - Very Challenging
Group objectives in general - Challenging/Very Challenging
Trash mobs and solo quest mobs - low to moderate challenge

And if you want people to "L2P", this is a much better environment for it.

No it isnt people will just stop playing. What remains is a select group of hardcore gamers. The tip of the pyramid, which will not be enough to valid two megaservers and regular content. Then the hardcore gamers leave due to lack of new stuff as hardcore gamers burn through content much quicker. There wont be any new content due to lack of funds.

Game dead.

I think you may have misunderstood me. The point I was trying to make is that in an environment (as described by Arundo, in the post I was quoting) where there's a range of different levels of challenges, players will up their gameplay at a pace that suits them rather than being instantly put off and quit.

Ahh, gotcha

Arundo

@Dayv‌
Ah yes my bad its getting late.

And im a bit annoyed that noone @ZOS is giving some sort of comment on this. Maybe its intended then tell me so I can move on. If not intended tell me aswell so I can stick around. I dont mind waiting if it needs fixing.

But these topics have been on the forums for weeks now. No news from ZOS..

Dayv

Arundo wrote: »

And im a bit annoyed that noone @ZOS is giving some sort of comment on this. Maybe its intended then tell me so I can move on. If not intended tell me aswell so I can stick around. I dont mind waiting if it needs fixing.

But these topics have been on the forums for weeks now. No news from ZOS..

Me too. They can't be ignorant of it. I think they're being very cagey by discussing VR improvements but not mentioning difficulty because they know that they'll alienate someone. But as time goes on, they're alienating the not so hardcore players.

midnight_tea

Sorry guys, I can agree that VR levels are difficult, but overall they're not THAT difficult.

I'm a casual gamer, a complete MMO newbie and I have VR12 sorc (not theorycrafted or anything) that reached the rank predominantly thanks to questing and exploration.

And I solo'd 95% of solo content.

Yes, it can be frustrating, but usually a change of tactics or a swap of few skills in ability bar was enough to pass majority of obstacles...

Alphashado

midnight_tea wrote: »

Sorry guys, I can agree that VR levels are difficult, but overall they're not THAT difficult.

I'm a casual gamer, a complete MMO newbie and I have VR12 sorc (not theorycrafted or anything) that reached the rank predominantly thanks to questing and exploration.

And I solo'd 95% of solo content.

Yes, it can be frustrating, but usually a change of tactics or a swap of few skills in ability bar was enough to pass majority of obstacles...

No offense intended, but it's pretty well known that the Sorc (especially using either of the two staves) is the easiest class to lvl with. And that is also part of the problem. People are feeling forced to resign themselves to switching to cloth builds with staffs even though that isn't how they want to play because right now It's the least stressful build to navigate VR with.

And Stressful shouldn't even be a word used to describe purchased content. But it is.

spinedoc

ers101284b14_ESO wrote: »

I like not being able to face roll everything. I like that I can kill a mob then get owned by the next one. Helps me keep thinking of tactics to beat the enemies. I have died more in this mmo than any other, but after finishing fights I feel accomplished. ( I get frustrated sometimes and have to walk away then go back to the fight later )

This would be ok if you didn't have to fight so many mobs. Less mob encounters, but making them more meaningful is great IMO. Having to constantly fight mobs while questing and making them super hard gets very boring very fast. Some may be ok with it, but let's see what the sub numbers look like when people get to VR levels.

Mortosk

Arundo wrote: »

@Hilgara‌

Hilgara wrote: »

Arundo wrote: »

So instead of enjoying the game as we want we have to follow a certain playstyle to get further with leveling ?

I get that you have to research your gear and build and play the cookiecutter builds for raiding and hardcore grouping but for simple leveling ? Thats just wrong.

Listen to your own argument. You are saying you want a game that requires no thought to level. One that you can just throw any combination of abilities together then faceroll the quests. No, that is the one thing this game should never do, scale the difficulty to the least skilled or laziest players in the game because those are the only ones complaining about difficulty. If ZoS dumb this game down any more they will lose the silent majority.

You sir are an elitist prick.

The silent majority isnt the elitist group but the casuals who leave for other better balanced games.

I believe elitist jerk is the term you are looking for.

Nathano

Arundo wrote: »

And im a bit annoyed that noone @ZOS is giving some sort of comment on this. Maybe its intended then tell me so I can move on. If not intended tell me aswell so I can stick around. I dont mind waiting if it needs fixing.

But these topics have been on the forums for weeks now. No news from ZOS..

Agreed. I am far from a casual player and have quit other MMOs because I find no challenge, however I'm at the point where I feel angry and frustrated every time I log on because the difficulty is too high. When you only have 1 difficulty for your game then you can't set that difficulty to one of it's highest settings without alienating a large number of your player base. I enjoy a challenging content but it needs to be in optional areas of the game such as dungeons and raids not leveling.

Also I was in a veteran dungeon today when the tank died. The boss headed straight for me and started pounding my face. Even though I was wearing light amour (I quest in medium) I was still taking less damage than a lot of the "normal" mobs I have found when questing. That shows how messed up the veteran content is.

Mortosk

Dayv wrote: »

martinhpb16_ESO wrote: »

Dayv wrote: »

This is an issue that keeps coming up on these forums again and again. If it isn't the biggest make or break issue this game has, it's certainly up there. There are people deserting because of it. I also acknowledge that there are some players seem to like this difficulty (I can't fathom why) but it's really about time ZoS addressed it. Either saying they intend to keep things this level of difficulty or they're going to make it more accessible for average players and tone it down. They know that this is an issue but keep sitting on the fence by alluding to upcoming changes to VR but mention nothing about the difficulty level. I just can't see this working on consoles the way it is now. It's about time ZOS gave us some feedback.

So you don't want any challenge just faceroll everything?

@martinhpb16_ESO, if by faceroll you mean do I find having to spec dress and stick and approaching every single trash fight as something that needs utmost concentration tedious, then yes just like loads of other people I want to faceroll everything. Let's be honest, I might as well just tell you that I want to faceroll it, because unless I tell you "Oh no! I was wrong to think there's anything wrong with the level of VR difficulty. You're completely correct", you aren't going to accept that I want to do anything other than faceroll everything. That opinion of yours is so implicit in your ever so eloquently-worded question.

People like to feel powerful, their avatar should be able to face roll trash mobs and not get it's arse handed to it. The questing/leveling should not impose a gear check or DPS check. You should not be forced to don a dress and shoot fire from a stick just to get past it. You should be able to level all the way to V12 in crappy greens using whatever build you enjoy playing. You shouldn't be concerned with min/maxing at all until end game.

This is definitely not the case, and it starts to get real right around V6. Not to say there aren't challenging over-tuned encounters that will cost you in repairs all over the place in V1-V5, but they seem to be the exception rather than the rule. (Harvesters, and over-tuned dungeon bosses with NPC healers or DPS standing next to them. I'm looking at you. Yea, you.)

ShedsHisTail

Really, the biggest problem is the way the VR content is perceived. You don't gain access to it until you reach the end of the main story and level cap. This makes it appear like it's the logical next step because it's really the only thing left for you to do.

What they should have done is make VR content optional and run it in parallel with other normal difficulty content.

Imagine if you had been granted access to VR content at level 30. You'd have the choice of checking out this extra hard -optional- content to flex your gamer muscles and see how tough you really are; or you could just continue on with the main story as normal. Then, once you reach the level cap (50), you gain access to things like Craglorn, or the VR dungeons, and that sort of thing.

What would Veteran Ranks give you? Special VR leveled gear. A level 30 character with 10VR levels would have access to gear with stats similar to high quality level 50 gear. Then, when they finished their veteran ranks, they could finish up the main quest and never have to worry about gear upgrades because they got all the stats they need in VR; they'd just need the levels (attribute points).

At level 50 everyone would be roughly even. And ready (gear-wise at least) for trials and VR dungeons and other end-game content.

What they could do to repair the situation right now would be to release new normal difficulty content and raise the level cap (say to 75?) so players who are struggling with veteran ranks could level up and prepare for end game content that way rather than trudging through the VR stuff. Make it so character who played to the new level cap would have access to gear with stats similar to current VR10 stuff (compensating, of course, for the additional attribute points.)

Basically, VR ranks should have been a sort of difficult short-cut to big rewards; not a gate to end game.

midnight_tea

No offense intended, but it's pretty well known that the Sorc (especially using either of the two staves) is the easiest class to lvl with. And that is also part of the problem. People are feeling forced to resign themselves to switching to cloth builds with staffs even though that isn't how they want to play because right now It's the least stressful build to navigate VR with.

And Stressful shouldn't even be a word used to describe purchased content. But it is.

I use destro+resto, but I also use the bow a lot. Plus, I wear predominantly medium armor.

Also - people have to decide which class apparently is 'easiest to level with' or OP...

ScardyFox

I simply don't agree. This is not a hard game - in fact they don't make hard MMOs anymore. Tweak your build, get more skills to be flexible in more encounters, or practice....

I don't know what to say thats helpful, but it certainly isn't a hard game.

Sakiri

ScardyFox wrote: »

I simply don't agree. This is not a hard game - in fact they don't make hard MMOs anymore. Tweak your build, get more skills to be flexible in more encounters, or practice....

I don't know what to say thats helpful, but it certainly isn't a hard game.

Again, difficulty is subjective.

I dont find it difficult, I find it a boring, grindy slogfest.

And Ive quit plenty of those. Theyre called "Korean grinders". Might like one of those more, you would.

Paladin_echo1

Although I agree with some comments, I disagree with the game dead thing at the moment. If the game is dead, then why aren't there other ones to replace this one? I don't want to hear anything else about the lame Wildstar kiddie crap which made me bout near vomit. Though I did hear that Borderlands 3 is due to come out this year though. Even though the games coming out are cool, I really like ESO and I play ESO because I like the mood and feel of the environment. If we all listen to the naysayers, we would all not play any video games ever again.

Lalai

Just posting again to say I highly disagree with the folks saying Veteran content shouldn't be challenging, or that challenging stuff should -only- be in group/dungeon type scenarios.

There is nothing wrong with having solo challenging content, or challenging content out in the open world. The problem comes in when you are essentially forcing folks to level through the challenging bit. I want Veteran levels to stay as they were prior to the Craglorn patch.. at that difficulty most seemed to be able to get through them okay.

What they should do though is add different ways to level. Basically I don't want what I find fun (and really one of the things that attracted me to the game) taken away just because there are people who don't find it fun. I like that there's a game where I can play solo when I feel like it and still run into challenging scenarios. I like that I die, and that fights take some time.. that I spend time looking at the layout of enemies to pick and choose which fights I want to go through to get to my goal.

I don't see why that stuff has to be taken out or reduced so the majority can do it, and would very much rather something new be added. They could even change the way VR levels are done so that trials and all that are available at level 50, and VR levels are just kind of an added bonus instead of being the true level cap.

rbenkepub19_ESO

V2 here. No, I don't think the game is too hard. I like the fact that I have to give some thought to how to take on multiple mobs, and that sometimes I'll fail the first time. I get frustrated, even angry sometimes, but that comes with the territory of playing a challenging game. I found the fight with Molag Bal to be very difficult. I had to stop, take stock of my strategy, experiment with several changes to my toolbar, and try a half dozen different tactics. It took me a good ten or twelve tries. On every try I cussed and fumed and loudly accused God and Zenimax of having it out for me. But when it was over...man, what a sense of accomplishment. I am totally satisfied with the difficulty level of this game exactly as it is.

Sakiri

Again, difficulty is subjective.

You folks are defining "difficult" as "hard".

I'm defining it as "boring chores".

Mobs that hit four times as hard and take four times as long to kill with a constant fear of death because they decided you needed to have 4 of them in one tiny little spot every 2 feet for trash pulls isn't "hard" it's a boring chore to have to go through.

I play games for fun, not tedium.

Some people like to take leisurely drives in the countryside. Do you think they like taking a leisurely drive through town hitting every single red light and jackhole jaywalker in town?

I know I don't. Why the hell I'd pay for a game that I knew was going to be an ungodly chore in the later 60% is beyond anyone's guess.

Honestly, the Psijic group wasn't large enough. Starting to wonder if they pulled from top end guilds that thrived on sitting in one room grinding until the cows come home to test the VR content or something.

If there'd been this much complaining about it, maybe it wouldn't have gone live in the atrocious state it's in now.

And I really wish ZOS would just tell one party or the other to buzz off and bite their losses. Not saying anything just creates bad press. And you can bet your butt a LOT of spurned players are just going to thrash them publicly.

Khami

I'm going to throw my two cents on this.

One, the VR content is not too hard. In my opinion it's perfect. It's a challenge and it will make you a better player if you take the time to learn.

Two, it took me a month to get through Coldharbour, it took me a month to get through EP zones and I expect it to take me a month to finish DC.

hamon

Lalai wrote: »

Just posting again to say I highly disagree with the folks saying Veteran content shouldn't be challenging, or that challenging stuff should -only- be in group/dungeon type scenarios.

There is nothing wrong with having solo challenging content, or challenging content out in the open world. The problem comes in when you are essentially forcing folks to level through the challenging bit. I want Veteran levels to stay as they were prior to the Craglorn patch.. at that difficulty most seemed to be able to get through them okay.

What they should do though is add different ways to level. Basically I don't want what I find fun (and really one of the things that attracted me to the game) taken away just because there are people who don't find it fun. I like that there's a game where I can play solo when I feel like it and still run into challenging scenarios. I like that I die, and that fights take some time.. that I spend time looking at the layout of enemies to pick and choose which fights I want to go through to get to my goal.

I don't see why that stuff has to be taken out or reduced so the majority can do it, and would very much rather something new be added. They could even change the way VR levels are done so that trials and all that are available at level 50, and VR levels are just kind of an added bonus instead of being the true level cap.

yes but with a modicum of imagination you can make easy content more challenging for yourself.. you could equip items a few levells lower. try it with what you know is a sub-optimal build etc etc .. even do it in your pants. you could even make videos of how uber you are on youtube...

but if the content is too hard how do you change it? except for be forced to re-roll an op class or a cookie cutter build.

thats what gets my goat about folk who want to protect things being hard , they dont really want it hard cos they could do that all by themselves using methods i just suggested... but they dont, the same folk who say they want it tough are the same folk who will do anything to make things easier if they can.. they will flock to the latest OP build and use any weapon armour combo that bumps up their power by a few % ..... then utterly fail to understand why not everyone wants to do the same......

what they really want is to know they are playing the utter maximum effieciency build they can and still have some challenge left... however that means things are left too hard for anyone not using their class/weapon/builds.

Deluged

Hard, for the sake of the story line, or lore. But not hard because of some pre-conceived ideas that hard means good. Keep the e-peen in the First Person Shooter forums, and give us back our, MMORPG"s. So we can relax and have fun again.

Sakiri

Like I said when I want a challenge I make my own. I just completed both guild lines at level 31. Why? Because I could. Would I expect them to make it mandatory for some arbitrary "challenge"? No.

GreySix

Sakiri wrote: »

Like I said when I want a challenge I make my own. I just completed both guild lines at level 31. Why? Because I could. Would I expect them to make it mandatory for some arbitrary "challenge"? No.

Excellent idea: For those who want harder gameplay, attack mobs ten levels higher than you - then post your video gaming skilllz on yoootooob.

Sakiri

GreySix wrote: »

Sakiri wrote: »

Like I said when I want a challenge I make my own. I just completed both guild lines at level 31. Why? Because I could. Would I expect them to make it mandatory for some arbitrary "challenge"? No.

Excellent idea: For those who want harder gameplay, attack mobs ten levels higher than you - then post your video gaming skilllz on yoootooob.

I did, actually.

http://youtu.be/iAUK3svp3ms

Lalai

hamon wrote: »

Lalai wrote: »

Just posting again to say I highly disagree with the folks saying Veteran content shouldn't be challenging, or that challenging stuff should -only- be in group/dungeon type scenarios.

There is nothing wrong with having solo challenging content, or challenging content out in the open world. The problem comes in when you are essentially forcing folks to level through the challenging bit. I want Veteran levels to stay as they were prior to the Craglorn patch.. at that difficulty most seemed to be able to get through them okay.

What they should do though is add different ways to level. Basically I don't want what I find fun (and really one of the things that attracted me to the game) taken away just because there are people who don't find it fun. I like that there's a game where I can play solo when I feel like it and still run into challenging scenarios. I like that I die, and that fights take some time.. that I spend time looking at the layout of enemies to pick and choose which fights I want to go through to get to my goal.

I don't see why that stuff has to be taken out or reduced so the majority can do it, and would very much rather something new be added. They could even change the way VR levels are done so that trials and all that are available at level 50, and VR levels are just kind of an added bonus instead of being the true level cap.

yes but with a modicum of imagination you can make easy content more challenging for yourself.. you could equip items a few levells lower. try it with what you know is a sub-optimal build etc etc .. even do it in your pants. you could even make videos of how uber you are on youtube...

but if the content is too hard how do you change it? except for be forced to re-roll an op class or a cookie cutter build.

thats what gets my goat about folk who want to protect things being hard , they dont really want it hard cos they could do that all by themselves using methods i just suggested... but they dont, the same folk who say they want it tough are the same folk who will do anything to make things easier if they can.. they will flock to the latest OP build and use any weapon armour combo that bumps up their power by a few % ..... then utterly fail to understand why not everyone wants to do the same......

what they really want is to know they are playing the utter maximum effieciency build they can and still have some challenge left... however that means things are left too hard for anyone not using their class/weapon/builds.

I don't see what's wrong with having two types of content in a game, personally. Why can't there be some content that is challenging for folks that are efficient or have quick reaction times.. that those folks can solo without having to make up way to make it hard. Provided that content is optional. The problem with Veteran content as is isn't tedium, or difficulty.. it's that you're pretty much forced to go through it. That's the part I want changed.. the part where people feel forced to go through it to access other parts of the game (like trials/Craglorn).

I'm not saying everything should be hard.. and quite honestly I don't have a ton of trouble with VR 1-4 stuff. I'm saying there's nothing wrong with having optional solo content that is more challenging... challenging stuff doesn't have to be restricted to groups. I shouldn't have to remove armor and all that, just like you shouldn't have to level past stuff and then go back to it. I don't really have an efficient build (I'm a Templar and the vast majority of my points are in healing/crafting.. I constantly only have a resto staff), I have one that works for me.. I don't roll OP classes, and I'm not constantly changing my spec. I don't do videos on Youtube or stream, or anything like that.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with wanting content that fits your own personal likes and dislikes without you having to adjust things too much on your end. That's essentially what this entire thread is about.

What gets my goat is people who think they should get a free pass to do everything at whatever skill level they might be in a game, even optional content that's suppose to provide a challenge to skills players.

indytims_ESO

Actually, I personally think the game is far too -easy-, overall. Sure, there are some exception fights/encounters, but seriously, at least pre-VR, the game is WAY too easy.

When you have people logging into a new game and max leveling in -days-, to me that screams the game is simply too easy. Growth should be more gradual, reaching the endgame in a matter of a few days offers no real challenge.

Crafting - while interesting to a point - is entirely too easy. I made it to Provisioning 50 in a matter of a couple hours, and if I can do it, any monkey with a keyboard can. Being max in a crafting skill means nothing, really, except that you don't have to track down a crafter to make your own stuff.

Society is so focused on 'instant gratification' anymore, which is disappointing in my book.

Sakiri

indytims_ESO wrote: »

Actually, I personally think the game is far too -easy-, overall. Sure, there are some exception fights/encounters, but seriously, at least pre-VR, the game is WAY too easy.

When you have people logging into a new game and max leveling in -days-, to me that screams the game is simply too easy. Growth should be more gradual, reaching the endgame in a matter of a few days offers no real challenge.

Crafting - while interesting to a point - is entirely too easy. I made it to Provisioning 50 in a matter of a couple hours, and if I can do it, any monkey with a keyboard can. Being max in a crafting skill means nothing, really, except that you don't have to track down a crafter to make your own stuff.

Society is so focused on 'instant gratification' anymore, which is disappointing in my book.

Provisioning isn't even really a crafting profession.

Go get Enchanting to 50 in a few hours without blowing a few billions of gold and we'll talk. Provisioning is a JOKE to level. Basing the entire craft system off leveling Provisioning is like basing a Ferrari off that old Pinto your Dad gave you to learn to drive with.

And the only thing leveling to cap in a few days says isn't that it's too easy, but rather that people have no lives.

Those grinders that took months to level in? That wasn't hard. Sitting in one place in a group killing mobs over and over and over again isn't a challenge. Never was. Never will be.

It's called "tedium".

Hilgara wrote: »

Arundo wrote: »

You sir are an elitist prick.

The silent majority isnt the elitist group but the casuals who leave for other better balanced games.

Bye then, off you go to my little pony online

You just backed up his statement, sir.

schroed360

Nova Sky wrote: »

Some fights in the 1-50 portion of the game have been difficult and aggravating. But I've stuck with it because I like the overall ES universe — the exploration, the lore and even most of the fights.

Now, though, I've reached Mannimarco in the main storyline and ... well, suffice to say, he's horribly powerful. The battle is rated at level 40, but I'm higher than that, and I'm lucky if I can get him down to 25 percent of his health before he simply outlasts me.

I'm going to try some different approaches, but I've done that several times already with no change to the outcome (defeat). I've got maybe three or four more up my sleeve, but after that, well, heck, I don't know what I'll do. Pointless to keep a sub in a situation like that.

Try investing a bit of time(2-3 hours) leveling resto staff then regen morph into mutagen....work well .