Dear ZOS - veteran levels are killing ESO. Please wake up to this.

Ragnar_Lodbrok

aleister wrote: »

Dekkameron wrote: »

Again you people need to learn the normal definition of grinding in mmos. Questing IS NOT nor EVER WILL BE grinding, no matter how much you call it so.

You're arguing about the definition of a completely made-up gamer-slang term. Apply the term to doing one dull quest after another is as valid as applying it to killing one unchallenging mob after another. The result is the same: boredom.

They quests arent dull, but I bet you just click through dialog. What you are stating is nothing close to reality. Because you rush through and have zero comprehension of the quest you call it dull.... /facepalm

Dealdrick

Fleymark wrote: »

You only think we are talking in circles because 'tis not I who has missed the point, friend.

A VR12 has an advantage over you in PvP for the same reason they had an advantage over you at level 10 and got access to PvP.... because they have earned higher VR than you.

It will take you weeks to do those levels and be the same VR? Then spend several weeks doing the levels so you can be the same VR. They committed that time and effort to advancing their toon. You should have the same advantages by not?

I'm not sure where you get the impression that there is supposed to be no difference between a vr1 and a vr12 in PvP. I've never read that anywhere as a design goal. People deserve advantages from putting in time and effort. Not because they show up.

I'm not an elitist, but I do like niche games, so that may be a fair assessment. But there's nothing elitist about simply liking a challenge in a game and having rewards for those who put in more time more effort or are better players. It's all available to you. Even with less game time per day than some gamers, you can still get there. It sounds like you just don't want to and that's an entirely different thing.

Those like me will still be here playing not because we are elitists or niche gamers but because we have an attention span and can find fun in advancing our toons in the big picture, even if it's not fun on a moment by moment basis. Having a goal to earn with some effort and to reap the rewards is where the fun is for some of us. I never suggested you should quit. You just might be happier limiting your play to to original 1-50 game. Heck, I might too for that matter, since the builds I enjoy are a lot more viable there. If they don't fix that in fairly short order I'll be finding something else to play, too.

Regardless, I agree there are tweaks that could abd probably should be made to make the vet ranks smoother and more fun. But I disagree with getting rod of them completely. The game needs hard content someplace abd the end game is the entirely appropriate place for it.

You aren't the one that missed the point? Seriously? Keep those blinders one, they server well. Don't worry though, soon enough you and three friends will have this game all to yourself.......

Cogo

Sigh, its sad that so many probebly good players completely missed that ESO is not a "grind" game. Everything is connected. Even quests gives different effects depending what you choose.

Getting level exp is one of many major things you can do in this game. And all have not been discovered yet.

A simular discussion like this was in Zonechat earlier (EU server), where one guy seamed adamant that ESO sucks and asked how many more then him is leaving to Wildstar.

Not one, not from me, but serveral said: You are, good riddens.

I still have not had a single boring moment in ESO. I never "grind", I play.
Even the "job" of fixing guild bank several times a day is ok for me, because it stopped an exploit. Also, I find myself knowing whats going on in our guildbank, which is quite busy!

I dont think most people here means bad. They are just frustrated and want to express that. You have to understand that ESO TYPE of game will never end. IT keeps expanding (in due time. Read the official statements.

What you do is ONLY up to you. I do feel sorry for you guys who got fast to vet level, got all skyshards, skillpoints or whatever the guides say......you missed more then 80% of the game.

Sure! One major goal is to progress, enhance your character.....but NO other game mixes skill/gear with personal skill and ability to adapt so well as ESO.

Then the Quests....they are all connected to Tamriel in different manners.

I know to well the "grinding" system and get to high level. Best quest hubs. click click click. Do em, get gear aaaaawwwww ready for raid.

ESO doesnt work that way. Even at Vet lvl 12, you need a coordinated team, where teamwork is waaaaaaayy more powerful then "the best build".

And when you read of the future plans already working on, while fixing bugs, while adding features etc. Zenimax has a long term plan for the game.

Most of you are MMO veterans and been in several games. You can not tell me that there isnt different MMO styles and what they are about.

Grand example. Everquest was THE MMO. Thats how you build em....untill Several others released with different type.

World of warcraft not just was but is one HELL of an outstanding game, that delivers that type of MMO to their players. I am having a hard time to see that anyone who is enjoying ESO, would even look at WoW because if in "our" mind...theres nothing to do! And I am dead certain that the WoW type player, who spends days, weeks, grinding/gathering mats to buy a specific mount, cant really be that interested in ESO which if you are gonna enjoy it....need to play it like you where watching a movie.

Flame away, but this is my opinion, shared by quite a lot who plays right now.

Dealdrick

Cogo wrote: »

Sigh, its sad that so many probebly good players completely missed that ESO is not a "grind" game. Everything is connected. Even quests gives different effects depending what you choose.

Getting level exp is one of many major things you can do in this game. And all have not been discovered yet.

A simular discussion like this was in Zonechat earlier (EU server), where one guy seamed adamant that ESO sucks and asked how many more then him is leaving to Wildstar.

Not one, not from me, but serveral said: You are, good riddens.

I still have not had a single boring moment in ESO. I never "grind", I play.
Even the "job" of fixing guild bank several times a day is ok for me, because it stopped an exploit. Also, I find myself knowing whats going on in our guildbank, which is quite busy!

I dont think most people here means bad. They are just frustrated and want to express that. You have to understand that ESO TYPE of game will never end. IT keeps expanding (in due time. Read the official statements.

What you do is ONLY up to you. I do feel sorry for you guys who got fast to vet level, got all skyshards, skillpoints or whatever the guides say......you missed more then 80% of the game.

Sure! One major goal is to progress, enhance your character.....but NO other game mixes skill/gear with personal skill and ability to adapt so well as ESO.

Then the Quests....they are all connected to Tamriel in different manners.

I know to well the "grinding" system and get to high level. Best quest hubs. click click click. Do em, get gear aaaaawwwww ready for raid.

ESO doesnt work that way. Even at Vet lvl 12, you need a coordinated team, where teamwork is waaaaaaayy more powerful then "the best build".

And when you read of the future plans already working on, while fixing bugs, while adding features etc. Zenimax has a long term plan for the game.

Most of you are MMO veterans and been in several games. You can not tell me that there are different MMO styles and what they are about.

Grand example. Everquest was THE MMO. Thats how you build em....untill Several others released with different type.

World of warcraft not just was but is one HELL of an outstanding game, that delivers that type of MMO to their players. I am having a hard time to see that anyone who is enjoying ESO, would even look at WoW because if in "our" mind...theres nothing to do! And I am dead certain that the WoW type player, who spends days, weeks, grinding/gathering mats to buy a specific mount, cant really be that interested in ESO which if you are gonna enjoy it....need to play it like you where watching a movie.

Flame away, but this is my opinion, shared by quite a lot who plays right now.

If you are enjoying the game, then great! Seriously, I'm glad you are. I still enjoy this game when it works, but sadly that is becoming more and more rare, but that isn't what this thread is about.

I, like many others, enjoy playing MMO's for the competition and cooperation. Since competitive play is how I "choose" to play the game, the VR zones aren't really optional.

There are skyshards and lorebooks to gather, group delves to complete and numerous quest lines that must be completed. In other words, there are WAY too many skill points to gather to just ignore this content. If I don't collect these skill points, my character is less complete than those I am competing against.

The problem is these VR zones are a huge time sink than many people don't want but are essentially forced to grind through to stay competitive.

Nanten

humpalicous wrote: »

I don't know many thought of it but veteran content is a replay of the original leveling experience. Remember what Cadwell said regarding what it would be like if you woke up in a different place?

What he (and of course Zenimax) meant was that you would go through the same xp leveling again, thus gaining low xp in the beginning and higher towards the end. It's the leveling all over again two more times. The big difference is the introduction of veteran ranks and higher difficulty. I can understand that some people do not want to go through that leveling experience again but what would you have the developers do? Give me viable solutions that would satisfy the opposition and I rest my case.

I personally enjoy the end game and the difficulty spike because it makes you think and use special tactics for special situations. This will not satisfy the casual gamer but end game content in MMO's is what usually seperates the casual gamer from the more motivated and determined player. I am not calling anyone a noob now but end game is supposed to be a hard and in most cases a grind. Period.

I do however agree that rewards for sticking with the vr content should be more extensive and rewarding. Some different xp leveling never hurts. Though this is not a major issue it would please most gamers and even save a few subscribers. Something to think about Zenimax?

Who the hell cares what Cadwell said? His words is the most stupid and cheap excuse an AAA game could ever have in gaming history! Excuse that ZOS made because of being eager to sell the unfinished product instead of spending time making an original end game content.

aleister

Ragnar_Lodbrok wrote: »

aleister wrote: »

Dekkameron wrote: »

Again you people need to learn the normal definition of grinding in mmos. Questing IS NOT nor EVER WILL BE grinding, no matter how much you call it so.

You're arguing about the definition of a completely made-up gamer-slang term. Apply the term to doing one dull quest after another is as valid as applying it to killing one unchallenging mob after another. The result is the same: boredom.

They quests arent dull, but I bet you just click through dialog. What you are stating is nothing close to reality. Because you rush through and have zero comprehension of the quest you call it dull.... /facepalm

I'm not trying to change your mind on anything. If you enjoy questing, great. I enjoy it sometimes, but after the 10th or so copy pasta mini-quest, it becomes a "grind" to me to continue doing them.

vicNBitis

Nanten wrote: »

Who the hell cares what Cadwell said? His words is the most stupid and cheap excuse an AAA game could ever have in gaming history! Excuse that ZOS made because of being eager to sell the unfinished product instead of spending time making an original end game content.

Someone needs to ask Cleese when he did the VO work for that little bit. I'm betting it was months after he'd finished everything else.

Magdalina

I personally enjoy questing o.O Granted, some of the quests are annoyingly alike, but that's FAR from all or even majority(and I'm vet 4 btw, halfway to vet 5). Besides, no one says you have to do ALL the quests.

I like meeting new npcs, exploring new places, etc. It seems to me the point of the game as Zeni sees it i questing, they clearly don't want us to spend time farming/grinding(which I for one am okay with). Vet quests of corresponding level also give plenty of experience, nothing at all like "cannot see my exp bar move".

I do think it could and should be thought out better, however. More reward for being vet - like someone said separate skill line, that'd be really cool, or just some better loot instead of scaled lvl 14 one(I sure like Warlock set, don't get me wrong there:P But smth new for a change would be fun) - would surely be appreciated, because it doesn't really feel like much of an achievement atm. Mobs also still seem a lot stronger than I'd expect, not sure if still buffed after patch(are archers supposed to be doing 600 damage?) or the way it's intended. I for one like the challenge and actually having to think before fighting though, but some folks sure don't appreciate it, especially with odd nerfs to classes that already seem underpowered. Wish there was a way to select difficulty there. Another big sore point for me personally is the story. It's as though I've been transported back in time and haven't defeated Molag Bal or anything, and ppl still say I have no soul etc(besides, maybe they should make the whole soul thing a bigger part. Because for 50 lvls it's like "I have no soul, no soul, gotta get it back, gonna get it back soon, gonna get it back very soon..." then I get it and...nothing changes. Nothing at all). The best part is I can hear npcs say stuff like "So is Planemeld stopped now, with destruction of the Great Shackle?" while anchors still drop etc. I think smth is very wrong there, timewise=x

But actually getting to do other alliances zones I like. Wouldn't you people - or some others - complain if you could NOT do those quests without an alt? Not everyone wants to make an alt. Besides, what other options would you like to see instead for vet leveling(aside from "become vet 12 NOW" button)? I'm genuinely curious. This is my first MMO so I cannot compare but...you say you're tired of grinding and quests feel like grinding to you, too. But...what else is there to do then?

Sakiri

Ragnar_Lodbrok wrote: »

pantaro30 wrote: »

steveb16_ESO46 wrote: »

zeuseason wrote: »

I'd say from this thread, it definitely seems like vet *levels* are the issue, not necessarily replaying other world factions. So, leave the level cap at 50 and give up rep factions we can get goodies from for doing that other world questing.

Replaying the other faction stories in tedious grind format is very much the issue for me. It's a lazy cop-out that makes no sense at all.

agreed my issue also has nothing at all to do with the difficulty,been gaming since the 80's I've played some damn hard games.more challenge is like double the content to me haha.people are sick of linear mmo's,most of us want real options.

Give me another option that doesn't involve doing another factions 1-50 content and my bitching ends or my sub does.

Look up the definition of grind, you wont see questing called it.

Boring, repetitive tasks.

You know, like questing. Especially the "fetch X bear asses" and "go deliver a message" ones.

Real genius there.

Sakiri

tankqullb16_ESO wrote: »

Sakiri wrote: »

yenkin2001b14_ESO wrote: »

This kills me to hear the griping, I played the original EQ from day 1, while the first few levels were quick, let me tell you, I played with the same guild for pretty much my whole experience and grinding with groups was a way of life. It took me 18 months to get a character to level 50. There was no expectation that you would get max level in a couple of days then whine about it because nobody there to play with you.

Also had to contend with the "Hell Levels" these levels were tedious and took days to get through, they did fix this eventually but exactly what you described here, exp. bar barely moved. It took a week or more of solid playing to get passed the level.

I will continue with ESO for awhile, to see what develops.

Yeah and back then Verant didnt have to wory about lost revenue to competition because there wasnt any.

And the grind wasnt enjoyable. Tthe time spent with friends, regardless of activity, was.

Youre trying to justify boring gameplay with fond memories of spending time with friends. It doesnt work that way.

and thats the point you have made friends while playing EQ, DAoC and what not - you simply dont in ESO and that is the true problem here...
the first time i added someone to my friendlist was due to kardala as it was the first time where you actually could do something coordinated more than one time...

I have a friends list.

Problem is, 90% of them haven't logged in in about 3 weeks on average.

Sakiri

Fleymark wrote: »

Sakiri wrote: »

yenkin2001b14_ESO wrote: »

This kills me to hear the griping, I played the original EQ from day 1, while the first few levels were quick, let me tell you, I played with the same guild for pretty much my whole experience and grinding with groups was a way of life. It took me 18 months to get a character to level 50. There was no expectation that you would get max level in a couple of days then whine about it because nobody there to play with you.

Also had to contend with the "Hell Levels" these levels were tedious and took days to get through, they did fix this eventually but exactly what you described here, exp. bar barely moved. It took a week or more of solid playing to get passed the level.

I will continue with ESO for awhile, to see what develops.

Yeah and back then Verant didnt have to wory about lost revenue to competition because there wasnt any.

And the grind wasnt enjoyable. Tthe time spent with friends, regardless of activity, was.

Youre trying to justify boring gameplay with fond memories of spending time with friends. It doesnt work that way.

No, you're just trying to deflect the fact that grinds aren't always all that bad by saying that no one really enjoyed it because there was social interaction going on. And it's ridiculous because it's simply not true.

Well, I've been gaming since Pong in 1977 or 78 and I still play grindy games like DAoC and EQ. I think I'm perfectly capable of telling people exactly what I find fun in a game free of your condescending bs spin, thank you very much.

Notably, I play on a classic EQ emu...Classic era being the grindyest and least forgiving than any time in that game's history. Not 10 years ago with rose colored nostalgic glasses, as you suggest, but NOW. For the last 4 years.

And, no, it's not just social interaction. The game is just better on so many levels than most new games simply because it features real accomplishment in an environment of actual risk versus reward. It's that simple. I've grinded out group classes alone in pu groups, I've grinded it out in duos with partners, I've grinded it out solo alone. The game is still superior to most because it offers real accomplishment with substantial risk versus reward. And the classes are amazing. You truly feel the power of your class and the ownership of your role in that game which is the benefit of having true class interdependence.

The game just happens to be super grindy as part of it is all. And it's still fun because you actually advance, you actually have to earn it, and talent actually counts for something even though it's not a twitch game.

Not that any of this has anything to do with this discussion because there is no grind in this game that remotely comes close to the grind in EQ. Grinding here is an optional alternative. But not required.

Please stop distracting from the discussion with assertions about the gold standard of MMOs that simply aren't true.

It's called having an attention span and finding fun in reaching a higher goal than simply being entertained on a moment by moment basis. We aren't all children in need of Ritalin.

Maybe you feel accomplishment spending 8 hours in a small room killing monsters but most of us don't.

Sorry. You're not getting that.

The only thing you accomplished is things that won't help you irl, and wasting colossal amounts of time doing something unfun.

If I wanted to do something unfun for colossal amounts of time to accomplish something, I'd get a boring ass skilled labor job, which is currently paying over twice what other jobs here are paying.

At least then I'd have something tangible.

seneferab16_ESO

((I posted this in another thread, but regretted that when I saw this thread, which is way bigger and more active. I'll do a copy paste and I hope it doesn't anger a mod or a player.))

I don't mind the difficulty or questing in the other factions zones, but I do mind that I am "forced" to do it, and in the absolutely shittiest and lamest way possible. The crossover between normal zones and Vet zones was the cheapest and most paper thin explanation I have ever seen in a game. No quests to get there, no feeling of being rewarded with these new huge zones of content, just a "Oh btw, have you ever wondered if you woke up in the other factions? No? Oh well, here ya go anyway."

The zones should be made optional, and veteran levels should mean nothing except a fluff title. Normalise the gear and the content, so I can choose the zone I want to go to and not be forced to do them in the same linear fashion as when I leveled. Make exploration, skyshards and the occasional rare loot the reward.

Long story short:
1. Normalise all content so you can choose what zone to go to.
2. Make Veteran Ranks a fluff title with fluff rewards, like costumes, pets, crafting motifs etc.
3. Bring choice and options back into the game. Play as you want.

sztartureb17_ESO

Simply put.

Zenimax sold the game to me with the civil war in Cyrodiil.

I do not mind to level till 50 that is fine. However putting a wall of 12 Veteran ranks and several hundred hours of PvE quest grind before I can reach a state to be competitive in PvP that is the problem!

Not to mention the total destruction of immersion the way VRs are implemented.

Zenimax i beg of you NO MORE VETERAN RANK INCREASE PLEASE!!! For a year at least.

Instead:
1. Fix the game issues
2. Fix the game issues
3. Fix the game issues
4. Add PvE dungeons not higher than VR12
5. Add adveture zones not higher than VR12
6. Add small additions to Cyrodiil which can make more reason fro smaller sized encounters.

Still_Mind

I'm on the fence here. I do enjoy how challenging VR content is - I do not enjoy the actual VR mechanics (both, VR increase, and VR gear). To me, it seems like cheap time padding, and nothing more.

If they just separated the game into "pre-50" and "Veteran" levels, basically giving free access to all the zones with universal "Veteran" enemy power level (and loot tables), would have made this enormous world so much more alive. Right now, VR questing outside Craglorn feels isolated and empty.

Keep faction questlines as achievement\skillpoint fodder, let people experience proper endgame without the pointless Veteran grind.

gladen5rwb17_ESO

Make all outdoor mobs in both Vet zones level with the players, not force group super hard to kill if you are solo. Put exp back into dungeons, decent loot back into dungeons and Adventure zones. Give the players their hard core fun and let the casual go collect materials, lore books and be able to quest as much as their hearts content. Give everyone options, choice of which direction they wish to level.

Never force people to group for outdoor content because right there you will lose a percentage of players. It is bad enough players find other reasons to leave without pushing the solo player base away too.

yarnevk

In their rush to get VR they repurposed the same content with mob scaling, but I have no desire to do VR as I would rather do 1-50 with alts and experience their story as I think many Elder Scrolls RPG types would as well, but that would mean not getting to do any new VR zones.

VR should be rewritten so you could be the invading enemy, instead of starting at the bank towns you would retake the invaders base camps and then use them to do the content as the invader until you reach their starter town. Now even if I had already done it on alts, I would still be interested in replaying it as their enemy. This takes less resources than opening a new zone because no new art is needed, but is much better than it being the same story as an alt on hard mode.

What is the point of having a PVP endgame if you render being in a faction pointless by forcing everyone to play as the other faction? The VR story is disconnected from the PVP story, and discourages alt play.

smokes

Fleymark wrote: »

I'm simply pointing out that it's an option. Personally, I'm doing the quests.

I did grind roughly 1/4 of a rank farming leather with a group and that's how I know it's fast. I was there for the drops and still got a massive chunk of exp in just like 15 mins. This was pre-patch. From what people are saying it should be even faster now.

But, yeah, I'm in the process of doing exactly what you suggest. So far so good although I dont discount the possibility of a grinding session here and there to break it up. Especially when I need the leather from the next teir or just find a ca.p I like.

Either way, there's nothing wrong with overlevelling if you are stuck st a point or just want to make it easier. Even says so on the splash screen tool tips.

Nice attempt at a gotcha, tho. It's not like I'm some purist bent on masochism...I'll keep things fresh, make things entertaining and will often take the path of least resistance myself. But, that doesn't mean I'm in favor of dumbing down the end game and making it fast and easy like 1-50 either. There's a difference.

No, fighting a VR mob a rank or two lower doesn't mean one has "removed all challenge." You are exaggerating and being over simplistic. You are also comparing apples and oranges of you think that was my point.

honestly i agree with you - i have no problem with the difficulty of this game, in fact i thoroughly enjoy the difficulty and it's one of the main reasons i bought it.

however, one of the other main reasons i bought it was for endgame. but that doesn't mean i'll ignore every other aspect, i enjoy levelling and taking my time with it - listening to the npcs, the lore, absorbing the world and all that jazz.

but there's just no need for the 10 VR levels for doing the other factions content.

getting the skyshards, skillpoints, lorebooks, achievements and loot along the way should be reward enough for that content.

i dont know if this is just internet rumour mongering or actual truth (although there is some merit to it). cyrodiil content was orginally intended as endgame content, until such a time that craglorn was released and the VR level would then be raised.

but then the beta testers asked if it was possible to make the other factions questing content available for those that didn't want to roll alts, all the additional lore, skyshards etc. so zenimax obliged but in the process added in VR1-10, meaning craglorn when it then launches pushes it up to VR12.

i honestly wonder if adding VR1-10 was more a necessity of the code, which they didn't have time to re-write before launch, than by design.

whilst having all that extra content available to "buy time" for more development, as some players might put it, or a downright awesome addition as other players might put it, adding the additional VR levels has had a lot of knock on effects, most notably the power level difference in pvp, the content block to any additional pve content you couldn't reroll an alt in another faction to see, rerolling of alts is then affected - difficulty is affected by a whole host of factors, but population and free grouping are becoming one of them.

i dont think i need to point out the specifics of those points as they've been repeated a few times in this thread already.

but if you remove those VR levels and scale it back to the above rumoured original design, everything fits together much better again - the pvp power difference is a lot more tolerable and will last for a longer period of time, questing from coldharbour to cyrodiil or craglorn makes much more sense than playing through 3 factions at easy/medium/hard difficulty, alts and replayability on a whole goes up, population hopefully goes up too.

dealing with the difficulty is probably something for a whole other thread - as grouping makes it easier, better gear makes it easier (sets, quality and enchantments), different builds, classes and outlevelling it also make it easier.

but in it's current state grouping is hard due to less players in zones and phasing, crafting high quality sets of gear is discouraged because you'll be replacing it soon and will want to keep the best crafting materials for max level. overlevelling the content is where my previous post becomes relevant, whilst i may have exaggerated the power gap, it doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

keeping the silver almanac set to medium difficulty, gold to hard and either scaling the mobs to level, VR1/2 or even increasing them with every vet rank increase, wont change the relative difficulty or fix the phasing issues.

however, the removal of the massive power difference between VR1-10 would both keep it challenging for those who grind their way to what would be VR2 and then revisit the quests, but also give struggling players more accesible alternatives to overcoming the challenge, either through crafting gear or leveling in pvp/craglorn which should be more populated areas and more group accesible.

sajackson

A lot of the VR content is doable solo but is it fun? I'm not really sure, it seems like sometime you have to put a monumental amount of effort in to get really fairly meager rewards which, as I think a few people have mentioned, is kind of an anti-pattern for MMO design.

Also I really don't like the quests that you just can't solo at VR. If the quest is intended to be completed by a group then it needs to be clearer in the journal that a group is going to be required rather than finding out by turning up at the mob and getting your backside handed to you. If the intention was that all the VR content should be soloable then I'm afraid that definitely isn't the case because some of the mobs just have too much health and hit too hard to be viable for a solo player. There have been at least a few times that I've had to hang around waiting for other players to come along to be able to complete a quest, and that definitely isn't fun (because anytime a MMO makes you wait around just feels like wasted time). I know the general advice is get better gear\level up etc.. but at VR that isn't really it at all. I have pretty ok gear for my level but with the kind of mobs I'm referring to it's usually not that close a fight that better gear or levelling (ironically you need kill the mobs to complete the quests to level) would make the difference. They are "brick-wall" mobs basically, the only way to down them is in a group. And anyone in a VR4+ zone at the moment knows how hard getting a group together is.

So those are the issue as I see them. ZOS either need to tone down the difficulty to make the content fun to complete solo or if the intention is that some quest content has to be done in groups they need to add in incentives to keep people interested in playing the VR zones cause right now they're pretty dead when you get to VR4 or later.

Garetth

Guppet wrote: »

Rammi wrote: »

smokes wrote: »

but the VR grind from 1-10 is just unecessary, tacked on, filler content, turned into "veteran content" - because players in beta expressed an interest in being able to do the other faction storylines without needing to roll another character.

but now, everybody that does want to experience any max level adventure zone gameplay, either on their mains or on an alt, has to play through the entire 1-50 quest content 3 times, or grind like a mo-fo for 25-30 hours.

as i said on... page 7 (http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/101675/dear-zos-veteran-levels-are-killing-eso-please-wake-up-to-this/p7)

VR content should be rolled back to VR2.
cadwells almanac should be optional content, not mandatory.
craglorn should be 50-VR2. (see the post for full details)

it might suck for V12's to be rolled back, but it's gonna suck way worse when ESO eventually goes F2P because the veteran content is bloated unnecessarily.

edit: also have to laugh how you say it's elders scrolls, it's about the journey, but you also admit to "rushing" all the vet content.

i loved 1-50 and i'm even rolling alts to enjoy it again and make different decisions, but i really came to ESO to see how the endgame works out - so far, it's not working out. not if i'm expected to "rush" VR1-10 to be on an even footing in pvp, or to find groups for craglorn without feeling like i am being carried.

I needed to quote this as this is actually a wonderful post with a great way to solve a lot of what I just posted about.

ZOS should look at this as a solution to the issue here. @ZOS_JessicaFolsom‌

Allow your players to make the choice of what they do. Stop the gates or improve character progression to reward people for doing that content.

This is a great solution.

We have hundreds of polls on this forum. Now if only this solution was to make it onto a poll, to see if most would support it, that would be awesome.

I'm on my phone or I'd do it myself (cant do polls on my IPhone )

What good will all that do when they stealth *** your characters abilities like they did to us Tempalrs.

Then after a massive outcry they come back an say "oh sorry what we did kinda sucked, heh heh, we will fix it in the future, but we will make the ability cost more when we get around to it"

These *** idiots DON'T even test the crap they throw at us.

Grumwulf

I really loved 1-50. I love the combat and the stories and the group mechanics. But I hate the endgame. I hate VR levelling. I don't think it is that hard, but it is boring. There is no feeling of progression. The stories are great but there is no longer any epic context and they feel anticlimactic. The mobs are harder but not in a satisfying way. They just take longer to die and if they kill you it is very frustrating. Dungeon bosses, Daedric princes, let them kill me, but a bunch of bandits shouldn't stand a chance. Remember that in ES games we are like gods by the time we have finished the main quest. I'm not saying we should kill things so easy but we should feel powerful, and that we are getting more powerful. Save the skill, and the agonising over builds for challenging optional content and instanced dungeons. Questing should be laid back and fun and feel fast and that you are making progress. But really I think you should not have the other factions open up at all. It really ruins alt play, it really ruins faction pride. I chose Ebonheart for the wild beauty of the land but I spend no time in those lands. But if you do insist on opening up these factions make it optional. Optional for achievement points, cosmetic gear, titles and skill points, and for those who like the story or to chill out on a rainy Sunday afternoon. VR levels just feel so unrewarding. The gear they open up is only a slight improvement. There are no new skills, no veteran skills or morphs, nothing but tiny increases in boring stats. And all for what? So we can do a trial a few minutes faster? Raids should be about the culmination of an epic story line. They should take weeks and weeks of wiping on bosses. What is epic about racing against a stop watch? What is immersive about it? What is raid night in ESO, do archive ten times?

1-50 was a great immersive story experience. I enjoyed it as much if not more than any ES game. But post 50 the game loses all that immersive appeal. It loses all its laidback fun and casual appeal. If you could fix the post 50 game you would have a real winner with this game I think. Some suggestions: get rid of VR ranks and give everyone the stats of a VR12 at VR1. Make the other factions optional but make it more rewarding to do them. Or keep the VR ranks and create a skill line with lots of passives that you unlock by killing things in craglorn or killing things in the other factions. Skill lines are your thing. There should be skills that unlock for every VR rank like the racial skills unlock with normal levels. And make a proper raid, with proper progression with proper Elder Scrolls bosses.

elvigy01

I'd agree with Grumwulf. I got to VR2 on a Templar and find it very unsatisfying. It's harder than before with less rewards. Not sure that's a winning strategy.

And I really don't like having to go through the same content that I'm doing on my alt. My VR2 Templar is just behind my Sorc alt. I loved the story but now that I'm redoing it on VR, I just click click click through the text. It turns the questing into a chore.

Heraclea

Since if you're level 50, bosses in the Coldharbor solo dungeons give level 50 soul gems. When I need more, I go tour them and kill the bosses.

At VR3, even, revisiting those dungeons is like a breath of fresh air. The game is simply more enjoyable to play when you don't need to have a survival plan and an exit strategy for every encounter.

sajackson

Most people can accept that bosses should be more challenging. The problem is that some of the VR trash mobs also seem to have boss-like difficulty and that isn't fun. The reason you don't want that in trash mobs is because, by definition, trash mobs need to be cleared and often in large quantities. If killing the trash requires extensive use of CC, positioning and survivability skills then it just becomes a big turn off - people don't mind saving some strategy for the big boss in a quest chain or instance but it gets tedious if you have to do it for every single piece of trash you encounter.

Iceman_mat

I still think vr players are killing this game and will be what ends it. I also think that in a years time you should consider adding an open world TEF mechanic (temporary enemy flag) that is available to VR's only (1-12) that activates as soon as one alliance enters anothers area, or close to to prevent spawn camping, e.g dc vr1 enters ad area to quest.t ad vr's can attack said dc and vise versa. You could have a world pvp and instanced pvp. Pvpception.

-cheers

Sakiri

I absolutely love how people assume that those of us that dislike vet levels are all children on Ritalin with poor attention spans.

I'm not a child. In fact, I'm probably older than a good number of the posters in this thread.

Second off, I probably put more time into my characters than a good number of these posters. My attention span is not lacking. In fact, my main has over 8 days played on him, before reverting him to a crafter because VR2 and bored with it. It's not hard, it's tedious. Which is unfun.

I have just over 22 days played between all of my characters. I have one VR2, one VR1. Both are staying there until VR is less of a chore.

One 28, one 34, one 22, and one 16. Last two are bank alts.

I sure as hell don't have an attention span issue.

Artemiisia

Sakiri wrote: »

Ragnar_Lodbrok wrote: »

pantaro30 wrote: »

steveb16_ESO46 wrote: »

zeuseason wrote: »

I'd say from this thread, it definitely seems like vet *levels* are the issue, not necessarily replaying other world factions. So, leave the level cap at 50 and give up rep factions we can get goodies from for doing that other world questing.

Replaying the other faction stories in tedious grind format is very much the issue for me. It's a lazy cop-out that makes no sense at all.

agreed my issue also has nothing at all to do with the difficulty,been gaming since the 80's I've played some damn hard games.more challenge is like double the content to me haha.people are sick of linear mmo's,most of us want real options.

Give me another option that doesn't involve doing another factions 1-50 content and my bitching ends or my sub does.

Look up the definition of grind, you wont see questing called it.

Boring, repetitive tasks.

You know, like questing. Especially the "fetch X bear asses" and "go deliver a message" ones.

Real genius there.

heheh so you think grinding is fun im guessing, boring repetitive tasks.

You know, kill this boss, go here kill another, go here kill another.

Real genius there......

Sakiri

Artemiisia wrote: »

Sakiri wrote: »

Ragnar_Lodbrok wrote: »

pantaro30 wrote: »

steveb16_ESO46 wrote: »

zeuseason wrote: »

I'd say from this thread, it definitely seems like vet *levels* are the issue, not necessarily replaying other world factions. So, leave the level cap at 50 and give up rep factions we can get goodies from for doing that other world questing.

Replaying the other faction stories in tedious grind format is very much the issue for me. It's a lazy cop-out that makes no sense at all.

agreed my issue also has nothing at all to do with the difficulty,been gaming since the 80's I've played some damn hard games.more challenge is like double the content to me haha.people are sick of linear mmo's,most of us want real options.

Give me another option that doesn't involve doing another factions 1-50 content and my bitching ends or my sub does.

Look up the definition of grind, you wont see questing called it.

Boring, repetitive tasks.

You know, like questing. Especially the "fetch X bear asses" and "go deliver a message" ones.

Real genius there.

heheh so you think grinding is fun im guessing, boring repetitive tasks.

You know, kill this boss, go here kill another, go here kill another.

Real genius there......

Actually, I don't like that either.

There are people that find menial questing boring. I'm not one of them, problem is, absolutely none of the quests in the next faction interests me. None.

I'm EP. I get into Daggerfall and all I see is pompous, pretentious jerks for NPCs(Bretons in general are arrogant little turds it seems) and my interest level hit 0.

I have an alt in AD. The quests there are actually fun. Unfortunately, for me to take my main and other EP characters through there, I have to slog through pretentious jackhole NPCs ordering me around like a slave.

Elirienne

Am I the only one around here who plays the game because I have 2 hours free time and I want these two hours to be spent by playing in a nice magical world, killing monsters and being a hero? And not specifically waiting for that bar to go up?

Some people here need to take a step back and look at what they are doing, for their own sakes. When you sit down to play, do you enjoy it? Yes? Then go play. No? Then please, for your own sake, go do something else that you do enjoy! Do you really want to spend 3 hours playing just so that one blue bar fills and another starts? If you don't enjoy the game itself, which i leveling and the story, why do you play?

Life is too short, go do something you enjoy.

SteveCampsOut

Dealdrick wrote: »

There are skyshards and lorebooks to gather, group delves to complete and numerous quest lines that must be completed. In other words, there are WAY too many skill points to gather to just ignore this content. If I don't collect these skill points, my character is less complete than those I am competing against.

The problem is these VR zones are a huge time sink than many people don't want but are essentially forced to grind through to stay competitive.

You can do the entire zone of Skyshards and Lorebooks without having to do a single quest. You can find out which quests in each zone give skill points and only do those. You aren't forced to do the whole area.

Bahz

Rather easy fix for this to keep most ppl happy:
- At 50 you can unlock 1 other class
- You get the option to level this class in the other faction zone like playing an alt.
- You could also level this class anywhere else but xp is scaled to the level of tree. So no VR xp that quickly lvls the tree.
- After maxing the class you select another and another optional faction.
- New content like craglorn is playable from 50 like real veteran content, if you want more skills/options you level your other trees first or do it in the new content