Dear ZOS - veteran levels are killing ESO. Please wake up to this.

aleister

wllstrt75b14_ESO wrote: »

You can do a vet level in a few hours. Heck I know guys that grind 2 levels In 4 hours. How is this too hard?
Perhaps zos should make an easy button for those that whine and want stuff on a silver platter.

The only way I can imagine two vet levels in 4 hours is they've found a quick-respawn location and sat there grinding the same mobs over and over for 4 straight hours. This is fun?

Fleymark

A good grind group can move the bar pretty fast, it seems. I was farming some leather at vr1 and an aoe group showed up. Just wanting to get the drops I joined in since they were killing everything. Like 5 or 6 of us in a large group. Picked up like anywhere from 1/5 to 1/4 of VR1 in 15 mins or so with them. And that wasn't really trying.

If you found the right spot and had a good group I'm sure you can grind vet levels pretty fast.

aleister

Fleymark wrote: »

A good grind group can move the bar pretty fast, it seems. I was farming some leather at vr1 and an aoe group showed up. Just wanting to get the drops I joined in since they were killing everything. Like 5 or 6 of us in a large group. Picked up like anywhere from 1/5 to 1/4 of VR1 in 15 mins or so with them. And that wasn't really trying.

If you found the right spot and had a good group I'm sure you can grind vet levels pretty fast.

Again, that's... "fun"?

Rammi

Im sorry I see a lot of comments belittling players wanting instant gratification and they need to suck it up or leave but I'm sorry the VR grind is simply not enjoyable and is poor game design. It feels slow and grindy and has changed a very pleasurable experience up to 50 into a rather repetitive and boring experience.

The core reason for this is that most people like the idea of reaching a point where from a certain point of view their character is "done" and they can now do whatever content they want as the games progression system is no longer gating them. The reasons this is important is that gamers want to feel like they are on as close to a level playing field as possible with the gamers around them even if skill and gear remain a factor. If you create a scenario where the progression of your characters is not as rewarding and has massively reduced (no more skill/attribute points as you level). Yet you maintain a progression system that gates you from content and gear. Then your going to get lot of bored players as they only have one option when they login, which is quest grind so they can have the freedom to get to other things or be effective.

I think ZOS totally misunderstood the mentality of most gamers. Most of us are not at all worried about a challenge, we enjoy it actually. This is not even about patience, its about feeling like you can within a reasonable time get to parity with others and then be free to focus and master a certain area of the game how you choose. Right now however I'm stuck grinding through a bunch of content that is pretty repetitive, my character is not really progressing beyond some new gear and most importantly, Im not able to login in and do what I want as I know I either cannot do the content as my lower VR level is two low (Trials) or I'm not effective because my level gates me from the better gear that I need to be effective. (PVP/Vet Dungeons)

My guild of 75 with an online roster in the first 6 weeks of 20/30 weeknights has dropped to 6 people or less online. The VR grind and bugs/stability in game are the two core reasons.

gaviidae

I'm another person that has unsubbed because of the veteran rank grind. It was bad before the templar nerf but now it's simply not any fun. I can deal with 2-3 mobs most of the time but it takes a lot of concentration and constant movement and one false step and I'm dead. Which is great in dungeons and in the occasional fight but every single time for hours on end. It just gets tiring. Sometimes I want to log on to my character and just relax and enjoy the game. Not have to fight for my life every time I take a few steps.

I'm still around because I was enjoying the game pre-Craglorn patch and signed up for 3 months and they won't refund it. Oops.

Dekkameron

I don't personally see why there is Veteran levels anyway. I'd prefer them to just increase the level cap and do away with questing on other peeps factions.

I love making new alts and doing content i haven't done on those. The current system is hideous for an alt-o-holic like me.

Haven wrote: »

Not to derail the thread. But how would you guys do veteran ranks if you could choose? Like. What would you do different? [Note this is a honest question.]

See above.

Fleymark

aleister wrote: »

Fleymark wrote: »

A good grind group can move the bar pretty fast, it seems. I was farming some leather at vr1 and an aoe group showed up. Just wanting to get the drops I joined in since they were killing everything. Like 5 or 6 of us in a large group. Picked up like anywhere from 1/5 to 1/4 of VR1 in 15 mins or so with them. And that wasn't really trying.

If you found the right spot and had a good group I'm sure you can grind vet levels pretty fast.

Again, that's... "fun"?

What's fun is highly subjective. For me, advancing my toon is fun even if I'm not entertained at every moment. I mostly do this from questing but it's nice knowing that an exp grind coinciding with farming is possible.

I was simply saying it's possible in response to the people who are so quick to label anyone who advanced to high VR quickly by doing anything other than quest grinding names. Actually that's a trend I've noticed that's all too common of late....There seems to be this Salem witch hunt mentality amongst a lot of gamers that anyone who does anything different than what they do, prefer to play differently, etc is "obviously" exploiting and cheating, of course. Its pretty ridiculous.

Do what you find fun and rewarding. But I will say this... There are fewer options and everything takes a lot longer in a lot of other games.

Rammi

smokes wrote: »

but the VR grind from 1-10 is just unecessary, tacked on, filler content, turned into "veteran content" - because players in beta expressed an interest in being able to do the other faction storylines without needing to roll another character.

but now, everybody that does want to experience any max level adventure zone gameplay, either on their mains or on an alt, has to play through the entire 1-50 quest content 3 times, or grind like a mo-fo for 25-30 hours.

as i said on... page 7 (http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/101675/dear-zos-veteran-levels-are-killing-eso-please-wake-up-to-this/p7)

VR content should be rolled back to VR2.
cadwells almanac should be optional content, not mandatory.
craglorn should be 50-VR2. (see the post for full details)

it might suck for V12's to be rolled back, but it's gonna suck way worse when ESO eventually goes F2P because the veteran content is bloated unnecessarily.

edit: also have to laugh how you say it's elders scrolls, it's about the journey, but you also admit to "rushing" all the vet content.

i loved 1-50 and i'm even rolling alts to enjoy it again and make different decisions, but i really came to ESO to see how the endgame works out - so far, it's not working out. not if i'm expected to "rush" VR1-10 to be on an even footing in pvp, or to find groups for craglorn without feeling like i am being carried.

I needed to quote this as this is actually a wonderful post with a great way to solve a lot of what I just posted about.

ZOS should look at this as a solution to the issue here. @ZOS_JessicaFolsom‌

Allow your players to make the choice of what they do. Stop the gates or improve character progression to reward people for doing that content.

Garetth

Altissimus wrote: »

Your player base is declining. I know this, because all of my friends and all of my guilds are saying the same thing.

Xp gain is too slow. Incentives are too little. Only some specific class/builds are working in Vet play.

Xp gain is too slow: it takes hours of game play to move the bar. Quest rewards are too little. Mob kills are arduous, and reward little.

Incentives are too little: VR3 to VR4...so what. The mobs, however, gain loads more HP. We gain...............nothing. No skill point towards a decent vet-based unlock. No power boost. No significant unlock of higher-tier gear. Nothing. Where's the incentive to do the ggggggrrrrrrriiiiiiinnnnnnnnnddddddddddddddddddddddd? You're missing the basic MMO equation here: effort must be met with reward.

Only some specific classes: "play the way you want to play" doesn't work into Vet zones. You. Can. NOT. Solo. Vet. Play. on any build, unless you take 2-3 times as long and use potions etc. There are maybe 2-3 builds in the entire game that can solo effectively...pre 1.1.2 nerfs, anyway.

THIS is where your efforts should be focused. The "oh, we're working on bots and gold spammers" excuse is old, and you've demonstrated insufficient progress to justify this.

I can't make this message clear enough: if you don't address more of what the players are wanting, and soon, you won't have to worry about bots and spammers any more because they'll realise there's no players to sell to.

plus 1,000,000 and 1. Spot on. Wake up or Zem or you are done!

Korozenn

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

Hey folks,

We want you to know that we've seen all your feedback and concerns about Veteran Levels, Veteran Content, end-game character progression options, and we're in the process of planning some changes and improvements. We hope to be able to share our plans with you very soon (maybe in the next Road Ahead letter.)

Thanks! Look forward to hearing about what you guys are going to do with Veteran Rank content in the near future, and I hope that 'near future' isn't too far off. At this point, I think we need that next "Road Ahead" article relatively soon.

---

For the sake of posting my own opinion on this matter based from what I've personally heard of Veteran Rank (a la end-game content):

tl;dr:
Please note that this is my complete, brutally honest opinion. I love The Elder Scrolls Online, and I'm a HUGE fan of the TES franchise as well; been playing TESO since the moment servers went active during Early Access and TES games since Morrowind. But I think it's important to be realistic when it comes to how ZeniMax should be approaching end-game content, and instead of forcing a grind through all three faction zones, going through those zones should just be viewed as an 'option'. Especially in regards to adding future zones into the game, we need more options and paths to break-up the linearity (i.e. "monotony") of questing across each faction zone over-and-over-again both before-and-after we reach end-game.

---

Long Response:
I'm going to stress the 'fact' that adding a useless grind for end-game content in The Elder Scrolls Online should never have been part of the game's design or something that you guys should have done in the first place. That was major mistake #1 with this game as it completely kills any replayability factor whatsoever as it's a system that forces players through each zone of all three factions to level, unless you really do intend to spend who-knows-how-long grinding your way through Cyrodiil to reach max VR.

While I hate to bring up the tried-but-true argument (in this case), "play as you want" doesn't carry over to end-game content. Unless you have a killer build, you'll be forced to group up for content that should have otherwise been solo-able (Delves, outdoor trash mobs, etc.), you'll find yourself forced through each faction's zones (in order, mind you) to grind your way up to VR12, and the fun that you had in-game from getting to Lv. 1-50 is completely crushed by the lack of proper incentive in grinding through so much content, to begin with. This is part of the reason why I'm personally avoiding end-game until ZeniMax fixes what end-game 'should' be about for The Elder Scrolls Online.

A lot of us communicated this during beta testing in our feedback a while back that we believe (and still stand firmly with that belief) that Veteran Ranks should not have even existed so early in the game's life as this was just an artificial way to tack on end-game content. It would have been much better if these VRs existed but were far easier to level through by just completing the special VR dungeons that could have all unlocked at Lv. 50 as well as participating in Cyrodiil. That would have made for an excellent end-game from the get-go.

Instead, we're left questing through each zone's territory across any characters we make in order to get to what should have been the 'real' end-game content (Craglorn, Cyrodiil, VR Dungeons, you name it). There are many players, including myself, that prefer to alternate between characters, even raise upwards to 3-8 of the currently alotted amount of characters we can have in-game. However, this system you have in place forces us to quest through each zone, each faction in-game, EIGHT TIMES to even remotely get close to max VR.

If you're the average player, that's easily about 400-600 hours of playtime across all 8 characters, meaning 3,200-4,800 hours, depending on your playstyle. That's completely absurd for an MMO of this size.

Your Veteran Rank content forces players into either of two categories: PvP or PvE. RPers have ultimately been given the shaft, just like those such as myself who have come from playing previous TES games and are used to having dynamic builds also are getting the shaft with how difficult Veteran Rank content truly is beginning to sound (hence why I don't want to experience it, or else I'll most likely end up in the slew of players currently rage-quitting over it).

Listen...the point of the matter here is that if I want to roll a character such as a High Elf on the Aldmeri Dominion and I find that it doesn't make sense logically why that same character would now be assisting 'enemies' on opposing factions, then it makes no sense at all why he would be questing through there in the first place after the main story quest line is finished in Coldharbour at all.

To be clear here: I'm not telling you to remove that option, as that's what it should be: an option. Nor am I telling you to remove Veteran Ranks. What I AM saying is that we SHOULD have the 'option' of doing these areas, ALL VR Dungeons should be opened to you (exception with those in Craglorn) upon reaching Lv. 50 and scale to group leader's level, and the rewards for VRs should be more suitable due to the amount of time you have to spend leveling in the first place.

Going through VR Faction Zones shouldn't be something we're forced to do. The Elder Scrolls, as a franchise, has always had games that emphasize the CHOICE of HOW you want to play, rather than the absolute freedom to do whatever you want and forget about lore and why there is AvAvA, in the first place.

I'm sorry, but I don't intend on playing through the game 3x on a single character to get them to a semi-max VR, then be forced to group up with others to go through Craglorn to get to my VR max. Even then, as I just said, you completely kill any RP aspect of this game whatsoever when you force us to level through these otherwise-considered 'enemy' faction's zones.

The Elder Scrolls games have been reknown for their replayability, but by limiting players to be forced to trek through a grind as large and long as questing through these multiple factions across multiple characters, you fundamentally have eliminated any reason for us to consider replaying through the game with multiple characters. By continuing to add higher-level content like Craglorn that is scaled for VR10+ players, you're alienating your player-base and taking away more-and-more reasons why people should ever consider having more than one toon.

I would suggest you all go back to the basis of what this game was made around in the first place, which was getting players to experience their faction's content and then participate in PvP. Forcing us to quest through all of this content across all three factions just to be competitive in PvP is not something that I think personally solve the problem at all; while it may in the short-term, the long-term negative qualities and aspects driven out of that are what makes leveling in end-game for TESO sound like pure torture.

MMOs are about accessibility. The Elder Scrolls Online was made AROUND accessibility; heck, The Elder Scrolls as a franchise has ALWAYS been about accessibility. Why in the world is this completely unnecessary grind even in the game?

I'm just being brutally honest here. Craglorn and Cyrodiil as well as Veteran Dungeons should be the start of end-game at Lv. 50, and all of that should be scaled to whatever Veteran Rank level players are thereafter. Not the other way around.

fiachsidhe

Hey fanboys, this isn't about wanting easier leveling. Its about charging into Hell, amassing an army of magic weirdos, singlehandedly killing a daedric prince, then going back to doing menial tasks for losers.

It's one of the reasons I hated WoW.
No matter what my character did in the past, I was still picking through crap (actual quest in BC) and collecting meat for hungry lumberjacks (from bears that mysteriously had no meat in WotLK).

Having the NPC's gradually come to know me as a sainted hero was cool. Now I get to clean out stables and deliver peoples' mail or whatever.

THAT
SUCKS.

fiachsidhe

Don't get me wrong. Leveling from 1-50 was some of the most enjoyable questing I've experienced since The Secret World. But the Veteran levels are just not fun to me.

The problem is the design was terrible. Zenimax took a sandbox game and made a themepark mmorpg. Copy pasting what works in other games and forcing tham all into their own and hoping the game succeeds on them and the pre-installed fanbase.

Fleymark

Because being a viable MMO is as, if not more, important than fitting anyone's perception of what it means to be an Elder Scrolls game.

A lot of you guys are totally off to the races overreaching with what you want to see in making the end game too easy. Good MMOs have challenging and time consuming endgame or the top end players simply don't stay. I agree that the way the other factions content was implemented makes it feel arbitrary and slapped on. I don't mind it because I like the difficulty and want the training points and achievements, but that's a legitimate criticism.

But to demand that they roll back the vet levels and make it all pablum easy for everyone, giving people who only play one toon nothing to do but repeat the same dungeons and PvP because high level advancement makes your need to have multiple alts repetitive is absurd to the point of being comical. Worst suggestions in this entire thread. And this is coming from one who plays a lot of alts in most games. If you play multiple characters, expect what comes with that, which could be repeating some content. And you are not OWED a quick and easy endgame to the detriment of everyone else and the game in general simply because you want to play more than one toon to completion. No one is stopping you from doing that anyway, just don't be surprised when you have to repeat content or neglect a toon because you are concentrating on another. Sheesh.

You guys need to dispense with the fantasy that they are going to do away with the vet levels or the questing thru other factions. They may make it easier. They may make it less linear by opening up the 3rd faction at 50 and scaling them differently. But it's here to stay because there simply is no other way to distribute those extra training points from the skyshards without it being stupid easy. Not to mention achievements.

They could alieviate a lot of problems by shifting down the levels of the vet dungeons first tier starting at V1 and in practicality, too, not just by the numbers...instead of v5 like it is now. Go up with the rest of the dungeons with craglorn at the highest end.

Stop adding vet levels until the more pressing issues are fixed, for Pete's sake. All this does is add more stick when there isn't enough carrot.

Give a skill point for competing a vet rank, for Petes sake. Consider giving two or more for the upper ranks.

Add vet level set jewelry and costumes with stats that only come from vet dungeons. Make them good and worth going after.

Most of all, fix the issues with classes and stamina builds so people can actually play their chosen class/build in the vet levels. This can't be repeated enough.

No broad sweeping changes are needed. Just some common sense tweaks, more carrot to balance the stick and, most of all, FIX THE CLASS/ BUILD ISSUES and the current pace and difficulty is just fine. It's just that right now the issues compound too much with not enough reward for going thru the ranks for a lot of people to justify the investment of time and energy.

Rammi

@Fleymark‌ I think you have mixed a few different methodologies that different people have stated to make your point. I feel like the more rounded responses clearly state the the vet scale back is a potential solution as it resolves the pointlessness of vr1-10 grind which is slow, repetitive and not very engaging and gates people from other content, to say it in anyway keeps hardcore players around is a joke as the content is far from hardcore, its just time consuming.

Its funny to me that you fail to mention the gating problem, this is a real issue with the VR grind it prevents people from doing what they want. 1-50 is not a quick process its was a good 150-200 hours of gameplay play for me. making me go through that again with no where near the same level of character progression is not fun. Also to be clear I find the VR questing grind to be quite easy actually and even if it was more difficult it would not matter as my problem is not in the challenge of the game but in the repetitive nature of what I do and my inability to do things like trials or vet dungeons because i do not play 8+ hours a day and grind to a VR level that enables me to do so.

Eitherway at least we can agree that the faction content was clearly slapped on at the end with limited thought and its not ideal in its current format and tweaks/changes/improvements need to be made.

Fleymark

The reason you are "gated," as you put it, from the higher VR content at lower VR is for the same reason you were "gated" from it when you were level 10 in your first regular zone....You haven't progressed enough for the end game content yet. Does this even need to be explained?

Where did the perception come from that all significant advancement was supposed to end at 50 and completing the main story quest? In most MMOs, good ones at least, you are just starting the end game when you reach top level. And that's consistent with the vet ranks. I have no idea where this assumption on the part of so many came from that you are just supposed to have the whole end game handed to you just because you hit 50. There are issues with it, sure, and there is arguably not enough incentive to trudge thru it, currently, but this assumption that something is broken because you still have content to play thruto get to the final endgame is pretty silly, IMO.

Regardless, you can shoot the messenger all you want but I guarantee you there will never be radical sweeping changes to this for the reasons I gave above.

Rammi

Fleymark wrote: »

The reason you are "gated," as you put it, from the higher VR content at lower VR is for the same reason you were "gated" from it when you were level 10 in your first regular zone....You haven't progressed enough for the end game content yet. Does this even need to be explained?

Progressing 1-50 is far more involved and balanced that what occurs at the VR levels. In what way does my character grow as a player from VR1-10 ? Gear? take that away what else? Nothing is the answer, unless i decide to create a net new build I have nothing to progress and why would i build a new class build when i like my current one and its working?

Your missing the point. the VR level grind is not a level progression it simply gates gear that enables me to do stuff. it does not create skill and does not make hardcore players hardcore. It rewards players who have no life and prevents others from trying different types of content.

The other main issue is the disparity in the ways you can level, I could stomach the grind a little more(even though the VR grind adds little value to the game) if I had choices as to how to grind but realistically doing quest is the only real option as its going to take me a good 8-10 more weeks to get to VR10 (im VR3 atm) given my play schedule doing it any other way would easily double that timeframe which is an equally important problem that needs to be addressed, which by the sounds of things we agree on.

terence.caroneb17_ESO

The things is people want it easier not really because content is too hard, it's because of class imbalances.
Play a Templar VR5, then a Dragonknight VR5. In any build, Templar will not be able to solo VR quests after Craglorn patch, DK will be pretty much fine. Same goes in PvP and we constantly said DK's had OP skills making them kings even before we start the fight.
Same goes with skill bugs like NB passives, unresponsive skills, ultimate points not stacking sometimes, weak ultimate abilities (templars again, though the healing ultimate is good the other 2 are really weak).

There are problems with mobs damage, but mainly problems with imbalance of class skills and classes ability to regen magicka (cause Zenimax didn't realize their game was making magicka-specialized character far more strong than stamina-based, because of weapon skills being weak, expensive, and block/interrupt/get out of stun and root uses stamina).

So really, it's the whole combat system and skill trees that Zenimax has to review to make the game fun for everyone, and not just DKs and Sorcs, which are the only classes without major bugs and nerfs.

Fleymark

Veteran Ranks do this for you...

Open up better gear which, in turn, allows you to cap multiple stats in the end. Opening up more flexibility with what skill lines you use. And optimizes you for PvP.

Makes more skill points available, which are needed if you do multiple crafts or play with more than one set of skills.

Opens up access to veteran dungeons. Later, craglorn and trials. You need the gear that comes with rank to do these.

Makes achievements available.

Opens the entire world to exploration and opens all quests.

VR brings lots with it. You may not want to explore or do quests or craft or use multiple skill lines etc etc but all of those things are part of the game and it's not "nothing." There could be a lot more, sure, but it's not nothing.

Just because you don't want to play the game to its full potential doesn't mean others should have their endgame shortened and made easier by just being able to skip ahead to the final endgame content whenever you want. Sorry if that's not what you want to hear but a lot of us like a challenge and something to work towards, not reasons to skip over everything.

If you read back a couple pages you will see us talking about grinding. You can totally grind vet ranks and it goes fastest in a group. But then you will say you don't want to have to find a group. LOL

A lot of you guys remind me of a pretty girl complai Bing that she never gets asked out. She gets asked out all the time. It's just not by people she wants to go out with.

There are lots of options available to doing things in this game, including VR advancement. A lot of people have just decided that they don't want to do any of them and that somehow means things are broken.

As I said before, some tweaks are needed, but the current system is entirely viable.

kasain

EvilEmpire wrote: »

For me, it's not the grind that was the problem. I have thus far enjoyed the VR content, even if it was somewhat tedious.

I'm a DK sword and board, hvy armor, stamina build. Since the patch, I'm so squishy that it's not even funny. I ditched 2h, then bow, once I passed VR3 because I just wasn't sustainable. I play Solo, and with sword/sheild combo, I was able to work through till now (VR7).

The problem I have is that now I can't solo anything. I just tried playing again, and with 2200 life, overcapped Armor and Spell resist, a Watcher in Tribunal with 6k life just destroyed me a few hits (with me using all my buffs, and wearing my crafted epic/legendary gear). My death cap said the last 4 hits were all 600-800 damage.

Block seems to be pointless now. Where before, I could at least mitigate damage, now my shield seems to do nothing.

So my problem is that I feel like I've wasted my entire play time since pre-release. If I want to continue to play solo (except for the typical grouping for Dolmen, World Boss, Dungeon), I have to become a cookie cutter DK with light armor and a Restro/Destro staff. I'm working on my 8th trait on Hvy Armor research, have lvl 50 2h, 1h/shield, and Bow (plus 50 in hvy armor and med armor because I wear 5hvy+2med). All of the above mentioned seems like a waste now. I don't want to wear light armor and use a staff. If I wanted that ***, I'd have rolled a Sorc.

It's gotten to the point now where I don't really want to play. If I didn't already buy a 6month sub, I'd just cancel. It has just become so un-fun for me. I feel worse for my gf who plays a hvy armor, sword and board templar. She's already abandoned hvy armor and is leveling a staff, but I just refuse to start over AGAIN (already essentially did that went I ditched 2h, then bow). I'm so broke now that I can't even afford a respec. My gf chewed through the 50k I sent her just repairing and buying more soul gems to fill (VR3 content). Then I sent her more to respec. I've chewed through 10k in repair costs alone yesterday. Now I don't even have enough to respec myself, but that's okay, because I have no idea what to respec to. All of the weapon classes/melee I have worked on, and want to play with, are no longer valid in Vet. I don't like being forced to group in order to kill trash mobs, nor do I like being wrangled into having to do a FoTM build to stay survivable. I was looking forward to PvP, but ***, if I can't even kill trash mobs, how can I expect to be competitive in PvP?

You and your girl may have issues. Saying you need 50k for a respec is wrong. You have the skills and traits as a v7 or access to skyshards to build how you want. Buying gems is pointless. You have a girl. Go to a boss like in spider cave kill it 30x and get 30x gems.

Dont get discouraged, prevel and make smarter choices.

Sakiri

Just remember, most of the rose tinted EQ grind memories dont come from the grind itself.

The grind itself was pretty farking boring.

What they reminisce about is the friendships made and comradarie that came from it. If they didnt have friends to do it with, theyd probably have quit as solo grinds are dull as hell for many, if not most, especially ones like EQ's.

Its like drinking in a bar, but all alone, all day every day. You just dont do it.

That kind of forced socialization and interdependence pisses a lot of folks off too. I play more than is healthy honestly, and being forced to spend it with a group for negligible benefit or progression isnt my idea of fun. Even when theyre friends.

It isnt fun when its forced.

Elyna

The whole idea of Vet is a little dumb to begin with. Only thing we get is a costume, which is nice and all but holy ****. It takes way too damn long to lvl veteran.

infraction2008b16_ESO

Fleymark wrote: »

Just because you don't want to play the game to its full potential doesn't mean others should have their endgame shortened and made easier by just being able to skip ahead to the final endgame content whenever you want. Sorry if that's not what you want to hear but a lot of us like a challenge and something to work towards, not reasons to skip over everything.

I don't think people are saying they want a fast track button, they are saying they want an alternative route to having to do another two factions in a linear fashion before they reach the real endgame. Reaching vet should be all about choices, not an extension of the levelling grind.

Cogo

Um, Mods say they are working on changes/ideas. And EVEN taking into account what most people post here, which in my world....nope, not gonna be rude.

Zenimax responded that they listened to the highlevelers and are working to better it. What possibly can be the reason for this huuuuge thread? GOOD changes dont come over night. Stupid changes does.

Guppet

Rammi wrote: »

smokes wrote: »

but the VR grind from 1-10 is just unecessary, tacked on, filler content, turned into "veteran content" - because players in beta expressed an interest in being able to do the other faction storylines without needing to roll another character.

but now, everybody that does want to experience any max level adventure zone gameplay, either on their mains or on an alt, has to play through the entire 1-50 quest content 3 times, or grind like a mo-fo for 25-30 hours.

as i said on... page 7 (http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/101675/dear-zos-veteran-levels-are-killing-eso-please-wake-up-to-this/p7)

VR content should be rolled back to VR2.
cadwells almanac should be optional content, not mandatory.
craglorn should be 50-VR2. (see the post for full details)

it might suck for V12's to be rolled back, but it's gonna suck way worse when ESO eventually goes F2P because the veteran content is bloated unnecessarily.

edit: also have to laugh how you say it's elders scrolls, it's about the journey, but you also admit to "rushing" all the vet content.

i loved 1-50 and i'm even rolling alts to enjoy it again and make different decisions, but i really came to ESO to see how the endgame works out - so far, it's not working out. not if i'm expected to "rush" VR1-10 to be on an even footing in pvp, or to find groups for craglorn without feeling like i am being carried.

I needed to quote this as this is actually a wonderful post with a great way to solve a lot of what I just posted about.

ZOS should look at this as a solution to the issue here. @ZOS_JessicaFolsom‌

Allow your players to make the choice of what they do. Stop the gates or improve character progression to reward people for doing that content.

This is a great solution.

We have hundreds of polls on this forum. Now if only this solution was to make it onto a poll, to see if most would support it, that would be awesome.

I'm on my phone or I'd do it myself (cant do polls on my IPhone )

Guppet

fiachsidhe wrote: »

Don't get me wrong. Leveling from 1-50 was some of the most enjoyable questing I've experienced since The Secret World. But the Veteran levels are just not fun to me.

The problem is the design was terrible. Zenimax took a sandbox game and made a themepark mmorpg. Copy pasting what works in other games and forcing tham all into their own and hoping the game succeeds on them and the pre-installed fanbase.

That's not be problem at all. The problem is the VR levels. Tell me which game they took that from? None, because no one else ever thought it was a good idea. No one will repeat it either.

Korozenn

infraction2008b16_ESO wrote: »

Fleymark wrote: »

Just because you don't want to play the game to its full potential doesn't mean others should have their endgame shortened and made easier by just being able to skip ahead to the final endgame content whenever you want. Sorry if that's not what you want to hear but a lot of us like a challenge and something to work towards, not reasons to skip over everything.

I don't think people are saying they want a fast track button, they are saying they want an alternative route to having to do another two factions in a linear fashion before they reach the real endgame. Reaching vet should be all about choices, not an extension of the levelling grind.

+1
Precisely, my friend.

---

On the topic, and to add to what was said:

The Elder Scrolls has always been about making choices with how you want to play through the game, and as TESO stands right now, the entirety of the leveling process post Lv. 1-50 is a linear quest grind through other faction zones, which isn't appealing to fans like myself of TES games.

Personally, I take no qualms with being able to level through VRs in other zones, but it's the lack of 'options' with 'how' you level through that end-game grind that makes it feel like it would be a full-time job.

We're used to being thrust into a world where we can go and explore in any which direction we should choose, and it should be ZeniMax's goal of eventually achieving that notion as much as they possibly can with the game. The same goes currently for skills and classes in the game as well that need to be balanced with this content so more dynamic builds can be used when going through solo content.

Like I said, as a TES fan, I expect much of the game to still be a solo affair. As an MMO fan, I also expect their to be content designed towards supporting group-play and raids. However, especially in end-game, content is simply not scaled well and you end up being forced to group up a lot to finish what were otherwise solo affairs, and the fact that you probably wouldn't have as much trouble soloing if you went into a cookie-cutter build for end-game content is the main issue poised here.

Currently, we're left with a game that plays far more like your traditional MMO where you're progressing through linear content with a rather linear way to grind as well as end-game content that almost demands you to respec if you don't have a cookie-cutter build.

It essentially strips the very essence of what The Elder Scrolls franchise has always heralded for end-game content to satisfy only the MMO side of the audience. THIS is why TES/MMO fans like myself who 'are' in the middle between both become split in the middle with their overall enjoyment of the game due to its inbalanced nature, which will all be fixed with time.

Instead of most VR content being about skill (like it SHOULD be), right now it falls into the traditional MMO trudge of min-maxing and respecs until you get into a build that everyone else has as it'd be the only viable option to go through that content.

In no way am I proposing for the challenge of end-game to be dumbified: I'm saying that the challenge it presents should be based more off of actual, raw skill rather than what abilties you're spec'd into (you know...like an 'actual' TES game).

As stated so many times already, TES has always been about making choices and really immersing yourself into the world of Tamriel through the choices you make. How you level, where you do so, what types of dynamic builds you come up with: all of that should be viable in past Lv. 1-50 content, and the 'amount' of content you have access to to start leveling in end-game from the moment you hit VR1 choice-wise should be something heavily considered by ZeniMax.

As it stands, once we hit VR1, we can only go to Cyrodiil or continue the quest grind in other faction territories. In reality, reaching VR1 should be where the game 'opens-up' like other TES games have, allowing you to enter Craglorn, Cyrodiil, VR Dungeons, or quest in other zones--whatever is your cup of tea. From that point on, more options, zones, etc. can be added to existing factions to allow you to continue leveling in end-game across your faction's zones, adventure zones, trials, veteran dungeons, PvP, and more in the long-run; with ZeniMax's goal being to have content scale with your level as much as possible so that we 'could' explore the game as we see fit.

That has been ZeniMax's goal from the outset of the game as announced by Matt Frior in the game's 2012 reveal, and it should be the direction we push the company towards as it's that type of innovation, that type of experience you get from TES games, that we need in the MMO space--and TESO is the game that needs to prove it can be that experience as it continues to develop.

madstoogb16_ESO

darthbelanb14_ESO wrote: »

I average a level in an hour of play, and that's with me goofing around.

The funny thing is people will complain either way, whether leveling is too fast or slow.

U get a vet level in an hour? Please share master jedi.

Fleymark

infraction2008b16_ESO wrote: »

Fleymark wrote: »

Just because you don't want to play the game to its full potential doesn't mean others should have their endgame shortened and made easier by just being able to skip ahead to the final endgame content whenever you want. Sorry if that's not what you want to hear but a lot of us like a challenge and something to work towards, not reasons to skip over everything.

I don't think people are saying they want a fast track button, they are saying they want an alternative route to having to do another two factions in a linear fashion before they reach the real endgame. Reaching vet should be all about choices, not an extension of the levelling grind.

But they are. Because there are alternatives and they just don't like them.

As has been discussed, grinding is an entirely viable option if you don't want to run quests. It's easy and fairly fast especially in a group.

I'm not there yet but I'm told once you start doing vet dungeons the exp is fast if you repeat them.

PvP gives VR exp and it is a viable way to level although it can be slow, they say.

There are 3 options right there that aren't questing in other factions. But every time someone mentions them a whole cadre of people come in and say why they dont like them. Quests are boring. Grinding is boring. I dont like PvP. I don't want to have to group. Blah freaking blah. If you are so nitpicky that 4 options given to you to advance isn't enough then I'm not really sure what else needs to be said.

Regardless, expecting instant access to all high end content upon hitting 50 is just completely unreasonable if anyone expects the high end of this game to be taken seriously. And they most likely aren't going to give us tailored high end quest content for VR exp and training point distribution since we have the other factions content already. These two things is what most people complaining seem to want and I highly doubt either will happen. The former because it's just silly and will destroy the end game for people who like a challenge and the latter because we already have that content. People just don't like it.

Tweaks and adjustments are really all you can reasonably expect, considering the number of options that are already available.

As I said before, a lot of these problems go away for a lot of people if they get the classes balanced and tuned properly. And maybe ramp up the difficulty around 30 or 40 so it's not such an abrupt change at 50.

Ezeklol

Please atleast give an attribute point for each level

All this veteran stuff seems to have done is reduce my contacts from 20+ online to 2 people online. and all my guilds 6/300+

Ingwe

Oh boy I am almost lvl 50 and I dont know if I should be happy or cry! What I read gives me no hope of leveling VR levels on my templar healer. I had pretty fun doing 1-47 buuuut I dont know.

I really hope they change it. I would like to do Craglorn but griiiiinnnndiiiiing another 9 levels just so I can njoy the update...ugh. I will probably do it, but as I am feeling now, I feel very discouraged to go further except that I get to see new zones.