Dear ZOS - veteran levels are killing ESO. Please wake up to this.

infraction2008b16_ESO

Fleymark wrote: »

infraction2008b16_ESO wrote: »

Fleymark wrote: »

Just because you don't want to play the game to its full potential doesn't mean others should have their endgame shortened and made easier by just being able to skip ahead to the final endgame content whenever you want. Sorry if that's not what you want to hear but a lot of us like a challenge and something to work towards, not reasons to skip over everything.

I don't think people are saying they want a fast track button, they are saying they want an alternative route to having to do another two factions in a linear fashion before they reach the real endgame. Reaching vet should be all about choices, not an extension of the levelling grind.

But they are. Because there are alternatives and they just don't like them.

As has been discussed, grinding is an entirely viable option if you don't want to run quests. It's easy and fairly fast especially in a group.

I'm not there yet but I'm told once you start doing vet dungeons the exp is fast if you repeat them.

PvP gives VR exp and it is a viable way to level although it can be slow, they say.

There are 3 options right there that aren't questing in other factions. But every time someone mentions them a whole cadre of people come in and say why they dont like them. Quests are boring. Grinding is boring. I dont like PvP. I don't want to have to group. Blah freaking blah. If you are so nitpicky that 4 options given to you to advance isn't enough then I'm not really sure what else needs to be said.

Let's analyse some of these methods:

Grinding - If ZOS expect that killing mobs over and over for the VP gain to progress to the next level is a viable and enjoyable endgame experience then they've failed as MMO developers. This just highlights the need for an alternative because people are grinding mobs due to the fact there is nothing else bar PvP and the faction quests to do.

Quests - What they should of done is launched with fresh new veteran zones/adventure zones, instead they chose the lazy half arsed route of regurgitating the other factions zones albeit a different order depending what faction you are, not only that you got to finish one factions zone before you can start the other. It's a themepark grindfest, the sort of thing that they should of took note of from the beta criticism about the noob islands.... it's the noob islands on steroids near enough. I remember hearing from various sources during the beta on how the game actually opens up and becomes more like an elder scrolls game rather than an MMO after you reach veteran rank but from what I'm seeing if anything it actually becomes more linear.

Dungeons - I'm actually yet to step into the veteran dungeons but from what I've been hearing I don't think I'm going to bother. It seems to me they've given the middle finger to anyone slightly casual by filling them up with real progression stoppers meaning unless you are in an experience well coordinated group that can put it on farm these dungeons are not a wise choice if you're just looking for some VP gain. Don't get me wrong I do enjoy hard content but it's not something I'd spend hours wiping in pug's just for the hope of a little more VP.

What they should of done is like a lot of other MMO's do, have different difficulty modes at endgame instead of just having one hard mode and saying like it or lump it.

PvP - This is where they seemed to put all the focus and even putting repeatable dailies and dungeons into this zone in order to coax PvE'ers into it, unfortunately there's two sides to every coin. Just as there's PvPer's out there who hate PvE and don't want to fight NPC's or do quests there's PvEer's that don't want to join the cyrodiil zerg fests or be ganked halfway through a dungeon. You can take the horse to the water but you can't make them drink it.

zeuseason

I'd say from this thread, it definitely seems like vet *levels* are the issue, not necessarily replaying other world factions. So, leave the level cap at 50 and give up rep factions we can get goodies from for doing that other world questing.

Alphashado

Ingwe wrote: »

Oh boy I am almost lvl 50 and I dont know if I should be happy or cry! What I read gives me no hope of leveling VR levels on my templar healer. I had pretty fun doing 1-47 buuuut I dont know.

I really hope they change it. I would like to do Craglorn but griiiiinnnndiiiiing another 9 levels just so I can njoy the update...ugh. I will probably do it, but as I am feeling now, I feel very discouraged to go further except that I get to see new zones.

Closer to 50 levels the way VR is set up. The XP needed in relation to the zones you must complete makes the leveling experience from VR1-VR10 about the same as 1-50. The Difference is that in VR levels, there is no exploration xp, and every mob will kill you in 2 seconds.

Edit: Just wanted to add in response to some of the above posts, that many of us aren't complaining about VR leveling because we hate the game. It is quite the opposite. I love this game and I want it to succeed. There is huge potential here for ESO to be one of the big kids on the block for a long time. But I knew the instant I hit VR that this game was in big trouble.

I've been playing MMOs for 20+ years, I have a pretty good feel for what works and what doesn't. This set up is not going to work. People are leaving and they SHOULD come here and explain why.

Rammi

Fleymark wrote: »

Veteran Ranks do this for you...

Open up better gear which, in turn, allows you to cap multiple stats in the end. Opening up more flexibility with what skill lines you use. And optimizes you for PvP.

Makes more skill points available, which are needed if you do multiple crafts or play with more than one set of skills.

Opens up access to veteran dungeons. Later, craglorn and trials. You need the gear that comes with rank to do these.

Makes achievements available.

Opens the entire world to exploration and opens all quests.

VR brings lots with it. You may not want to explore or do quests or craft or use multiple skill lines etc etc but all of those things are part of the game and it's not "nothing." There could be a lot more, sure, but it's not nothing.

Just because you don't want to play the game to its full potential doesn't mean others should have their endgame shortened and made easier by just being able to skip ahead to the final endgame content whenever you want. Sorry if that's not what you want to hear but a lot of us like a challenge and something to work towards, not reasons to skip over everything.

If you read back a couple pages you will see us talking about grinding. You can totally grind vet ranks and it goes fastest in a group. But then you will say you don't want to have to find a group. LOL

A lot of you guys remind me of a pretty girl complai Bing that she never gets asked out. She gets asked out all the time. It's just not by people she wants to go out with.

There are lots of options available to doing things in this game, including VR advancement. A lot of people have just decided that they don't want to do any of them and that somehow means things are broken.

As I said before, some tweaks are needed, but the current system is entirely viable.

Once again missing the point and really turning into a bit of a troll.

Everything you just listed does not require the VR levels to exist. You could still allow for all of those things you list to occur without the arbitrary level grind and the player still get rewarded for that time commitment. Once again this is nothing to do with time it takes to do things. Its about choice and fun, I have no choice in what i do whether its group and grind or solo and grind. Its the same playing experience that i have no choice in.

The ability to optimize your character post 50 has nothing to do with the VR rank its all to do with gaining more skill points and gear which could be achieved in a way which does not force another progression leveling system but as I mentioned if the game wants to keep that pointless system then it needs to even out how i can progress so that its more viable to make progress in PVP, I can actually be effective in dungeons at VR1 and reward exploration like I used to be rewarded in the 50 experience.

You like to belittle the gamer because you clearly have 8+ hours a day to grind a rather repetitive and boring set of content. Im glad you enjoy it. Mark my words the majority do not and they are leaving Im watching it happen. You can have your elitist attitude and good for you but time will as always tell.

As a poster said above Im not complaining about the VR level system per se. I just don't find it a pleasurable experience at all as it stands. I love the 1-50 experience the VR one is not fun at all. I want ZOS to make it better and personally feel that bringing it down to VR2 is a viable way that removes the gating of content but allows for me to do what i want when I login. Im sure other solutions exist.

yenkin2001b14_ESO

This kills me to hear the griping, I played the original EQ from day 1, while the first few levels were quick, let me tell you, I played with the same guild for pretty much my whole experience and grinding with groups was a way of life. It took me 18 months to get a character to level 50. There was no expectation that you would get max level in a couple of days then whine about it because nobody there to play with you.

Also had to contend with the "Hell Levels" these levels were tedious and took days to get through, they did fix this eventually but exactly what you described here, exp. bar barely moved. It took a week or more of solid playing to get passed the level.

I will continue with ESO for awhile, to see what develops.

fililoco

Rigth now Im lvl 33 and i realy enjoyed the game, when i read the comments i realy get upset because its like the VT content its goin to suck. the fist thing i dont like its to play in another ally content, i want to make an alt, not do it with my main cha,r but if you need the skills point and xp you need to do it really sucs. second thing its be competitive in pvp, its a huge advantage to be vr rank 10 vs my lvl so i thing to have chance in pvp you need to lvl up to this before you can enjoy it, realy bad, i think it must be more equal so the pvp can be more about skill and not level.

i have some things that think can be a good desing desicion to implement but its to late to do.

-dont have VT levels, instead make optionals things.
you can go and do the other ally content you get good gold reward, achivments, titles, craft mats, skill point.
or you can pvp, gain the mats and the skillpoints as you lvl up your ranking.

One thing to consider its put a cap in the skill points, so or you get the points from pvp or you get from ally contet, not see the points of have all the skill and all the points i saw more grind that other thing, i prefer the pay and reset skills model.

New content like clargdon gets more equip, and raid get its, i think its the wow model, i think its accurate for a teampark mmo.

The lvl progresion its not in the lvl, and more focus in the equiptment. i think this is a better solution and much more enjoyment.

sorry for my bad english

dietlime

People who can't have fun unless you're max level should stop playing ESO.

Sakiri

yenkin2001b14_ESO wrote: »

This kills me to hear the griping, I played the original EQ from day 1, while the first few levels were quick, let me tell you, I played with the same guild for pretty much my whole experience and grinding with groups was a way of life. It took me 18 months to get a character to level 50. There was no expectation that you would get max level in a couple of days then whine about it because nobody there to play with you.

Also had to contend with the "Hell Levels" these levels were tedious and took days to get through, they did fix this eventually but exactly what you described here, exp. bar barely moved. It took a week or more of solid playing to get passed the level.

I will continue with ESO for awhile, to see what develops.

Yeah and back then Verant didnt have to wory about lost revenue to competition because there wasnt any.

And the grind wasnt enjoyable. Tthe time spent with friends, regardless of activity, was.

Youre trying to justify boring gameplay with fond memories of spending time with friends. It doesnt work that way.

Fleymark

Rammi wrote: »

Fleymark wrote: »

Veteran Ranks do this for you...

Open up better gear which, in turn, allows you to cap multiple stats in the end. Opening up more flexibility with what skill lines you use. And optimizes you for PvP.

Makes more skill points available, which are needed if you do multiple crafts or play with more than one set of skills.

Opens up access to veteran dungeons. Later, craglorn and trials. You need the gear that comes with rank to do these.

Makes achievements available.

Opens the entire world to exploration and opens all quests.

VR brings lots with it. You may not want to explore or do quests or craft or use multiple skill lines etc etc but all of those things are part of the game and it's not "nothing." There could be a lot more, sure, but it's not nothing.

Just because you don't want to play the game to its full potential doesn't mean others should have their endgame shortened and made easier by just being able to skip ahead to the final endgame content whenever you want. Sorry if that's not what you want to hear but a lot of us like a challenge and something to work towards, not reasons to skip over everything.

If you read back a couple pages you will see us talking about grinding. You can totally grind vet ranks and it goes fastest in a group. But then you will say you don't want to have to find a group. LOL

A lot of you guys remind me of a pretty girl complai Bing that she never gets asked out. She gets asked out all the time. It's just not by people she wants to go out with.

There are lots of options available to doing things in this game, including VR advancement. A lot of people have just decided that they don't want to do any of them and that somehow means things are broken.

As I said before, some tweaks are needed, but the current system is entirely viable.

Once again missing the point and really turning into a bit of a troll.

Everything you just listed does not require the VR levels to exist. You could still allow for all of those things you list to occur without the arbitrary level grind and the player still get rewarded for that time commitment. Once again this is nothing to do with time it takes to do things. Its about choice and fun, I have no choice in what i do whether its group and grind or solo and grind. Its the same playing experience that i have no choice in.

The ability to optimize your character post 50 has nothing to do with the VR rank its all to do with gaining more skill points and gear which could be achieved in a way which does not force another progression leveling system but as I mentioned if the game wants to keep that pointless system then it needs to even out how i can progress so that its more viable to make progress in PVP, I can actually be effective in dungeons at VR1 and reward exploration like I used to be rewarded in the 50 experience.

You like to belittle the gamer because you clearly have 8+ hours a day to grind a rather repetitive and boring set of content. Im glad you enjoy it. Mark my words the majority do not and they are leaving Im watching it happen. You can have your elitist attitude and good for you but time will as always tell.

As a poster said above Im not complaining about the VR level system per se. I just don't find it a pleasurable experience at all as it stands. I love the 1-50 experience the VR one is not fun at all. I want ZOS to make it better and personally feel that bringing it down to VR2 is a viable way that removes the gating of content but allows for me to do what i want when I login. Im sure other solutions exist.

I'm really starting to wonder if a lot of people in this thread have ever played an MMO before.

I agree that a lot of tweaks could and probably should be made for the VRs. And that a lot of people, myself included, find it less fun that pre-50. For s lot of people it's too hard or slow. For others, like me, it exaggerates the fact that classes and builds aren't really balanced all that well.

Regardless, it has been discussed ad nauseam that there are multiple ways to progress through the VRs. And, on cue, people come in and cry about how they don't like them, making blanket statements about how this or that is an epic fail in design when really it just boils down to the fact that they don't like their options and just want everything handed to them for showing up.

No, sorry to be the one to point this out, but having grinding mob experience as an option doesn't represent failure on the part of the designers. Especially as easy and fast as it is. As grinds go, it's a fast one compared to most games that have grinds. But, still, that's not good enough. It simply means that you just don't like grinding. So pick one of the other multiple options. Oh, you don't like those, either? A pattern is starting to be established...Options are available but some players don't like any of them. Looks to me like the problem lies with a lot of the players rather than the design of the game.

End game in an MMO, good ones at least, are the "adult" levels of the game. They are generally more challenging, more time consuming and less fun on a moment by moment basis because the fun lies in higher advancement of one's toon. Moment by moment you are presented with challenges and generally getting your butt kicked. Because adults understand the big picture unlike, say, toddlers who need to have their hands held, a song sung to them, and given a juice box to keep them entertained on a car trip lest they get bored, cranky, and throw a trantrum. The adults in the car are bored and fatigued too, but they understand that they will eventually make their destination. Except unlike real life, these levels are entirely optional. If you enjoy the lower levels more then skip the end game abd roll alts.

In fact, like I said earlier, I think that isn't being said enough in modern gaming. It might not be that there aren't enough options, but that this game, or the high level content of it, just isn't for you. And that's probably okay. Think about it. If you don't like to PvP then what do you need VR12 for, anyway? You don't want to coordinate groups for exp in the VR dungeons so why even level up to go anyway? You don't care to see the other factions at VR and you don't want to grind thru the quests so why do you need the VR at all? You really don't want to do anything that requires advancing past 50 so you don't need the points. Except for trade skills, maybe. You could just get naked and go collect them. Players who don't want to do any of the above stopping at 50 is a win win for everybody. They got to play thru the whole story on ex mode and now they are free to go play the other stories with alts the same way. And those of us who do want to meet the challenge of higher advancement, do hard dungeon content, optimize for PvP etc can.

But, please, stop trying to remove all challenge from the game for those who enjoy that. Because except for a couple of dungeon boss kills during 1-50 the VRs is the only challenge in this game.

And btw, when someone tosses out the "just because you want to spend 8 hours a day" blah blah that's the first indication that they are an entitled member of the new breed of mmo gamers that think they are owed advancement just for showing up. They aren't. Nor should they be. Since you aren't interested in anything that requires veteran rank the only things, purely content-wise, that you miss by stopping at 50 are trials and Craglorn. If you want to see those things join the rest of us in putting the time and effort required to earn access to that content. There are multiple ways to get there. Chose one or a combo and have at it with the rest of us.

As I said, tweaks would be great. But if you think the end game should just be easy pz and quick to blow thru like 1-50 then I couldn't disagree with you more.

FunkyBudda

Fleymark wrote: »

Rammi wrote: »

I'm really starting to wonder if a lot of people in this thread have ever played an MMO before.

I agree that a lot of tweaks could and probably should be made for the VRs. And that a lot of people, myself included, find it less fun that pre-50. For s lot of people it's too hard or slow. For others, like me, it exaggerates the fact that classes and builds aren't really balanced all that well.

Regardless, it has been discussed ad nauseam that there are multiple ways to progress through the VRs. And, on cue, people come in and cry about how they don't like them, making blanket statements about how this or that is an epic fail in design when really it just boils down to the fact that they don't like their options and just want everything handed to them for showing up.

No, sorry to be the one to point this out, but having grinding mob experience as an option doesn't represent failure on the part of the designers. Especially as easy and fast as it is. As grinds go, it's a fast one compared to most games that have grinds. But, still, that's not good enough. It simply means that you just don't like grinding. So pick one of the other multiple options. Oh, you don't like those, either? A pattern is starting to be established...Options are available but some players don't like any of them. Looks to me like the problem lies with a lot of the players rather than the design of the game.

End game in an MMO, good ones at least, are the "adult" levels of the game. They are generally more challenging, more time consuming and less fun on a moment by moment basis because the fun lies in higher advancement of one's toon. Moment by moment you are presented with challenges and generally getting your butt kicked. Because adults understand the big picture unlike, say, toddlers who need to have their hands held, a song sung to them, and given a juice box to keep them entertained on a car trip lest they get bored, cranky, and throw a trantrum. The adults in the car are bored and fatigued too, but they understand that they will eventually make their destination. Except unlike real life, these levels are entirely optional. If you enjoy the lower levels more then skip the end game abd roll alts.

But, please, stop trying to remove all challenge from the game for those who enjoy that.

And btw, when someone tosses out the "just because you want to spend 8 hours a day" blah blah that's the first indication that they are an entitled member of the new breed of mmo gamers that think they are owed advancement just for showing up. They aren't. Nor should they be.

As I said, tweaks would be great. But if you think the end game should just be easy pz and quick to blow thru like 1-50 then I couldn't disagree with you more.

until the Craglorn patch with exp boost (imo still not enough), grinding mobs were the worst way to progress VR ranks. Sure now it might be ok, but they also decided to "fix" Kardala exp farming days after all the guys from PTS got their VR levels, with no punishment. Had they kept that exploit open so everyone can get a ride with it, I would say you have a point.

Ragnar_Lodbrok

Funny how people call questing grinding, then ask for the ability to level by....... grinding dungeon mobs /facepalm

Guppet

Ragnar_Lodbrok wrote: »

Funny how people call questing grinding, then ask for the ability to level by....... grinding dungeon mobs /facepalm

The thing is you can grind dungeons with a random pug. It gets you good practice of doing group content, which you are hopefully able to do at max level with friends and guildies.

Ragnar_Lodbrok

Guppet wrote: »

Ragnar_Lodbrok wrote: »

Funny how people call questing grinding, then ask for the ability to level by....... grinding dungeon mobs /facepalm

The thing is you can grind dungeons with a random pug. It gets you good practice of doing group content, which you are hopefully able to do at max level with friends and guildies.

That misses my point about calling something that isnt grinding, grinding and then wanting, grinding.

Rammi

@fleymark we are talking in circles. You are making points and using examples of things that I have not said and your cherry picking different opinions to suit your case. I have never once advocated or mentioned the need to reduce the complexity of the game. I actually find the game easy. Im having no problem soloing any quest or public dungeon and I'm a NB. My limitation is time not skill!!

I love to PVP but someone who is VR10 has a massive advantage over me at VR3 and its going to take me weeks to catch up. Thats not balanced PVP that a joke considering my characters progression should have reached a point where it was not as important any longer. To add on to that if i wanted to PVP it would take me months not weeks to catch up and it forces me to do other content i do not want to do to be competitive.

You are right that this is the reality of the MMO, it will always be like that but i firmly believe that the vet ranks are going to hurt Zenimax pocket and as i said before my guild has all but left and others are leaving as well. the common reasons Bugs/stability, Vet ranks are boring (boring does not mean easy just so we are crystal clear, it means im getting no pleasure out of this).

Like you said people can leave and they are. The population is dwindling and you and your niche will be left.

PEACE!

Rammi

P.S Zenimax Im really a fan. FYI I bought the 6 month sub although its now getting cancelled. I loved your game I just don't get any pleasure out of the vet rank grind and none of my friends are either.

steveb16_ESO46

zeuseason wrote: »

I'd say from this thread, it definitely seems like vet *levels* are the issue, not necessarily replaying other world factions. So, leave the level cap at 50 and give up rep factions we can get goodies from for doing that other world questing.

Replaying the other faction stories in tedious grind format is very much the issue for me. It's a lazy cop-out that makes no sense at all.

Ragnar_Lodbrok

steveb16_ESO46 wrote: »

zeuseason wrote: »

I'd say from this thread, it definitely seems like vet *levels* are the issue, not necessarily replaying other world factions. So, leave the level cap at 50 and give up rep factions we can get goodies from for doing that other world questing.

Replaying the other faction stories in tedious grind format is very much the issue for me. It's a lazy cop-out that makes no sense at all.

Again you people need to learn the normal definition of grinding in mmos. Questing IS NOT nor EVER WILL BE grinding, no matter how much you call it so.

Im reminded of an Abe Lincoln quote to a senator, "You can call a dogs tail a fifth leg, but its still not a leg."

pantaro30

steveb16_ESO46 wrote: »

zeuseason wrote: »

I'd say from this thread, it definitely seems like vet *levels* are the issue, not necessarily replaying other world factions. So, leave the level cap at 50 and give up rep factions we can get goodies from for doing that other world questing.

Replaying the other faction stories in tedious grind format is very much the issue for me. It's a lazy cop-out that makes no sense at all.

agreed my issue also has nothing at all to do with the difficulty,been gaming since the 80's I've played some damn hard games.more challenge is like double the content to me haha.people are sick of linear mmo's,most of us want real options.

Give me another option that doesn't involve doing another factions 1-50 content and my bitching ends or my sub does.

Ragnar_Lodbrok

pantaro30 wrote: »

steveb16_ESO46 wrote: »

zeuseason wrote: »

I'd say from this thread, it definitely seems like vet *levels* are the issue, not necessarily replaying other world factions. So, leave the level cap at 50 and give up rep factions we can get goodies from for doing that other world questing.

Replaying the other faction stories in tedious grind format is very much the issue for me. It's a lazy cop-out that makes no sense at all.

agreed my issue also has nothing at all to do with the difficulty,been gaming since the 80's I've played some damn hard games.more challenge is like double the content to me haha.people are sick of linear mmo's,most of us want real options.

Give me another option that doesn't involve doing another factions 1-50 content and my bitching ends or my sub does.

Look up the definition of grind, you wont see questing called it.

pantaro30

Ragnar_Lodbrok wrote: »

pantaro30 wrote: »

steveb16_ESO46 wrote: »

zeuseason wrote: »

I'd say from this thread, it definitely seems like vet *levels* are the issue, not necessarily replaying other world factions. So, leave the level cap at 50 and give up rep factions we can get goodies from for doing that other world questing.

Replaying the other faction stories in tedious grind format is very much the issue for me. It's a lazy cop-out that makes no sense at all.

agreed my issue also has nothing at all to do with the difficulty,been gaming since the 80's I've played some damn hard games.more challenge is like double the content to me haha.people are sick of linear mmo's,most of us want real options.

Give me another option that doesn't involve doing another factions 1-50 content and my bitching ends or my sub does.

Look up the definition of grind, you wont see questing called it.

steveb16_ESO46

Ragnar_Lodbrok wrote: »

steveb16_ESO46 wrote: »

zeuseason wrote: »

I'd say from this thread, it definitely seems like vet *levels* are the issue, not necessarily replaying other world factions. So, leave the level cap at 50 and give up rep factions we can get goodies from for doing that other world questing.

Replaying the other faction stories in tedious grind format is very much the issue for me. It's a lazy cop-out that makes no sense at all.

Again you people need to learn the normal definition of grinding in mmos. Questing IS NOT nor EVER WILL BE grinding, no matter how much you call it so.

Im reminded of an Abe Lincoln quote to a senator, "You can call a dogs tail a fifth leg, but its still not a leg."

Even with your erudite use of caps grinding and questing are not mutually exclusive. And no - you don't get to define things. Even using caps. So take your insulting 'you people' nonsense somewhere else.

Fleymark

You only think we are talking in circles because 'tis not I who has missed the point, friend.

A VR12 has an advantage over you in PvP for the same reason they had an advantage over you at level 10 and got access to PvP.... because they have earned higher VR than you.

It will take you weeks to do those levels and be the same VR? Then spend several weeks doing the levels so you can be the same VR. They committed that time and effort to advancing their toon. You should have the same advantages by not?

I'm not sure where you get the impression that there is supposed to be no difference between a vr1 and a vr12 in PvP. I've never read that anywhere as a design goal. People deserve advantages from putting in time and effort. Not because they show up.

I'm not an elitist, but I do like niche games, so that may be a fair assessment. But there's nothing elitist about simply liking a challenge in a game and having rewards for those who put in more time more effort or are better players. It's all available to you. Even with less game time per day than some gamers, you can still get there. It sounds like you just don't want to and that's an entirely different thing.

Those like me will still be here playing not because we are elitists or niche gamers but because we have an attention span and can find fun in advancing our toons in the big picture, even if it's not fun on a moment by moment basis. Having a goal to earn with some effort and to reap the rewards is where the fun is for some of us. I never suggested you should quit. You just might be happier limiting your play to to original 1-50 game. Heck, I might too for that matter, since the builds I enjoy are a lot more viable there. If they don't fix that in fairly short order I'll be finding something else to play, too.

Regardless, I agree there are tweaks that could abd probably should be made to make the vet ranks smoother and more fun. But I disagree with getting rod of them completely. The game needs hard content someplace abd the end game is the entirely appropriate place for it.

Rammi

@Fleymark‌ Fair does. I get what your saying in your last two paragraphs both valid and rational

I think the main point you are not hearing me on is that Im not finding the content challenging, its simply time consuming. Perhaps time consuming to you means challenge and that is where we are mis communicating. I personally find it boring as I'm not being challenged and I get little reward for spending hours on end doing repetitive content. hence why if things don't change i really will not stay as why play something i get no pleasure from, your 100% spot on.

I also see that rightly or wrongly I assumed that once I reached 50 that VR ranks would not play as much of a role in determining your characters power and it would not be as long a progression curve to get to the end of it. Both of these factors have led to me being disheartened with a rather lackluster questing experience that feels like the same stuff i just went through from a different POV. Whilst also still feeling weak to be competitive in PVP and also not even having the right to do certain vet raids and trails unless i continue to pound this boring content. To me that equates to *** i though that once i was 50 i could do this stuff and now I have to spend a bunch more time doing quests which were not as good as what i just did. Hence Bored.

Anyway good chat im out now! was good debating with you.

Fleymark

Sakiri wrote: »

yenkin2001b14_ESO wrote: »

This kills me to hear the griping, I played the original EQ from day 1, while the first few levels were quick, let me tell you, I played with the same guild for pretty much my whole experience and grinding with groups was a way of life. It took me 18 months to get a character to level 50. There was no expectation that you would get max level in a couple of days then whine about it because nobody there to play with you.

Also had to contend with the "Hell Levels" these levels were tedious and took days to get through, they did fix this eventually but exactly what you described here, exp. bar barely moved. It took a week or more of solid playing to get passed the level.

I will continue with ESO for awhile, to see what develops.

Yeah and back then Verant didnt have to wory about lost revenue to competition because there wasnt any.

And the grind wasnt enjoyable. Tthe time spent with friends, regardless of activity, was.

Youre trying to justify boring gameplay with fond memories of spending time with friends. It doesnt work that way.

No, you're just trying to deflect the fact that grinds aren't always all that bad by saying that no one really enjoyed it because there was social interaction going on. And it's ridiculous because it's simply not true.

Well, I've been gaming since Pong in 1977 or 78 and I still play grindy games like DAoC and EQ. I think I'm perfectly capable of telling people exactly what I find fun in a game free of your condescending bs spin, thank you very much.

Notably, I play on a classic EQ emu...Classic era being the grindyest and least forgiving than any time in that game's history. Not 10 years ago with rose colored nostalgic glasses, as you suggest, but NOW. For the last 4 years.

And, no, it's not just social interaction. The game is just better on so many levels than most new games simply because it features real accomplishment in an environment of actual risk versus reward. It's that simple. I've grinded out group classes alone in pu groups, I've grinded it out in duos with partners, I've grinded it out solo alone. The game is still superior to most because it offers real accomplishment with substantial risk versus reward. And the classes are amazing. You truly feel the power of your class and the ownership of your role in that game which is the benefit of having true class interdependence.

The game just happens to be super grindy as part of it is all. And it's still fun because you actually advance, you actually have to earn it, and talent actually counts for something even though it's not a twitch game.

Not that any of this has anything to do with this discussion because there is no grind in this game that remotely comes close to the grind in EQ. Grinding here is an optional alternative. But not required.

Please stop distracting from the discussion with assertions about the gold standard of MMOs that simply aren't true.

It's called having an attention span and finding fun in reaching a higher goal than simply being entertained on a moment by moment basis. We aren't all children in need of Ritalin.

xramirez535b14_ESO

This makes me very wary of Veteran ranks. Doesnt the story stop at level 49? I think i might stop at that point especially if the quests dont hold my interest like in the lower level areas.

smokes

Fleymark wrote: »

I'm really starting to wonder if a lot of people in this thread have ever played an MMO before.

I agree that a lot of tweaks could and probably should be made for the VRs. And that a lot of people, myself included, find it less fun that pre-50. For s lot of people it's too hard or slow. For others, like me, it exaggerates the fact that classes and builds aren't really balanced all that well.

Regardless, it has been discussed ad nauseam that there are multiple ways to progress through the VRs. And, on cue, people come in and cry about how they don't like them, making blanket statements about how this or that is an epic fail in design when really it just boils down to the fact that they don't like their options and just want everything handed to them for showing up.

No, sorry to be the one to point this out, but having grinding mob experience as an option doesn't represent failure on the part of the designers. Especially as easy and fast as it is. As grinds go, it's a fast one compared to most games that have grinds. But, still, that's not good enough. It simply means that you just don't like grinding. So pick one of the other multiple options. Oh, you don't like those, either? A pattern is starting to be established...Options are available but some players don't like any of them. Looks to me like the problem lies with a lot of the players rather than the design of the game.

End game in an MMO, good ones at least, are the "adult" levels of the game. They are generally more challenging, more time consuming and less fun on a moment by moment basis because the fun lies in higher advancement of one's toon. Moment by moment you are presented with challenges and generally getting your butt kicked. Because adults understand the big picture unlike, say, toddlers who need to have their hands held, a song sung to them, and given a juice box to keep them entertained on a car trip lest they get bored, cranky, and throw a trantrum. The adults in the car are bored and fatigued too, but they understand that they will eventually make their destination. Except unlike real life, these levels are entirely optional. If you enjoy the lower levels more then skip the end game abd roll alts.

In fact, like I said earlier, I think that isn't being said enough in modern gaming. It might not be that there aren't enough options, but that this game, or the high level content of it, just isn't for you. And that's probably okay. Think about it. If you don't like to PvP then what do you need VR12 for, anyway? You don't want to coordinate groups for exp in the VR dungeons so why even level up to go anyway? You don't care to see the other factions at VR and you don't want to grind thru the quests so why do you need the VR at all? You really don't want to do anything that requires advancing past 50 so you don't need the points. Except for trade skills, maybe. You could just get naked and go collect them. Players who don't want to do any of the above stopping at 50 is a win win for everybody. They got to play thru the whole story on ex mode and now they are free to go play the other stories with alts the same way. And those of us who do want to meet the challenge of higher advancement, do hard dungeon content, optimize for PvP etc can.

But, please, stop trying to remove all challenge from the game for those who enjoy that. Because except for a couple of dungeon boss kills during 1-50 the VRs is the only challenge in this game.

And btw, when someone tosses out the "just because you want to spend 8 hours a day" blah blah that's the first indication that they are an entitled member of the new breed of mmo gamers that think they are owed advancement just for showing up. They aren't. Nor should they be. Since you aren't interested in anything that requires veteran rank the only things, purely content-wise, that you miss by stopping at 50 are trials and Craglorn. If you want to see those things join the rest of us in putting the time and effort required to earn access to that content. There are multiple ways to get there. Chose one or a combo and have at it with the rest of us.

As I said, tweaks would be great. But if you think the end game should just be easy pz and quick to blow thru like 1-50 then I couldn't disagree with you more.

i want to address something i think you are overlooking somewhat

if you grind to VR12, then go do all the quests to get all the skyshards and skillpoints etc, it's actually going to be darn sight easier at VR12 in full set of purple/yellow gear to blast through VR1-10 veteran quests - no?

even grinding to VR5, then doing the quests for cadwells silver is going to make VR1-4 significantly easier. even in greens!

yet, you're the one saying grinding is a perfectly viable levelling option and dont want the challenge removed. although by grinding to max level and then questing through that content, you've nerfed it for yourself and removed any challenge it might provide you.

it's not really as if grinding mobs in a group is challenging either...

i think before you go any further in your argument, you need to try and level solo, through questing, from VR1-10, to gain some perspective.

sagitter

Why you would like to see the end of a game so quick... do you think that a vet 3 can t kill a vet 10? I m fine with the current system and , if i m bored to do quests i grind, if i m bored to grind i do pvp. With the last patch is way easy now. I bet that if the end is lvl 50, you just reroll another char because get bored sooner. If u want a game to finish in less than 1 month play dark souls maybe.

Fleymark

smokes wrote: »

Fleymark wrote: »

I'm really starting to wonder if a lot of people in this thread have ever played an MMO before.

I agree that a lot of tweaks could and probably should be made for the VRs. And that a lot of people, myself included, find it less fun that pre-50. For s lot of people it's too hard or slow. For others, like me, it exaggerates the fact that classes and builds aren't really balanced all that well.

Regardless, it has been discussed ad nauseam that there are multiple ways to progress through the VRs. And, on cue, people come in and cry about how they don't like them, making blanket statements about how this or that is an epic fail in design when really it just boils down to the fact that they don't like their options and just want everything handed to them for showing up.

No, sorry to be the one to point this out, but having grinding mob experience as an option doesn't represent failure on the part of the designers. Especially as easy and fast as it is. As grinds go, it's a fast one compared to most games that have grinds. But, still, that's not good enough. It simply means that you just don't like grinding. So pick one of the other multiple options. Oh, you don't like those, either? A pattern is starting to be established...Options are available but some players don't like any of them. Looks to me like the problem lies with a lot of the players rather than the design of the game.

End game in an MMO, good ones at least, are the "adult" levels of the game. They are generally more challenging, more time consuming and less fun on a moment by moment basis because the fun lies in higher advancement of one's toon. Moment by moment you are presented with challenges and generally getting your butt kicked. Because adults understand the big picture unlike, say, toddlers who need to have their hands held, a song sung to them, and given a juice box to keep them entertained on a car trip lest they get bored, cranky, and throw a trantrum. The adults in the car are bored and fatigued too, but they understand that they will eventually make their destination. Except unlike real life, these levels are entirely optional. If you enjoy the lower levels more then skip the end game abd roll alts.

In fact, like I said earlier, I think that isn't being said enough in modern gaming. It might not be that there aren't enough options, but that this game, or the high level content of it, just isn't for you. And that's probably okay. Think about it. If you don't like to PvP then what do you need VR12 for, anyway? You don't want to coordinate groups for exp in the VR dungeons so why even level up to go anyway? You don't care to see the other factions at VR and you don't want to grind thru the quests so why do you need the VR at all? You really don't want to do anything that requires advancing past 50 so you don't need the points. Except for trade skills, maybe. You could just get naked and go collect them. Players who don't want to do any of the above stopping at 50 is a win win for everybody. They got to play thru the whole story on ex mode and now they are free to go play the other stories with alts the same way. And those of us who do want to meet the challenge of higher advancement, do hard dungeon content, optimize for PvP etc can.

But, please, stop trying to remove all challenge from the game for those who enjoy that. Because except for a couple of dungeon boss kills during 1-50 the VRs is the only challenge in this game.

And btw, when someone tosses out the "just because you want to spend 8 hours a day" blah blah that's the first indication that they are an entitled member of the new breed of mmo gamers that think they are owed advancement just for showing up. They aren't. Nor should they be. Since you aren't interested in anything that requires veteran rank the only things, purely content-wise, that you miss by stopping at 50 are trials and Craglorn. If you want to see those things join the rest of us in putting the time and effort required to earn access to that content. There are multiple ways to get there. Chose one or a combo and have at it with the rest of us.

As I said, tweaks would be great. But if you think the end game should just be easy pz and quick to blow thru like 1-50 then I couldn't disagree with you more.

i want to address something i think you are overlooking somewhat

if you grind to VR12, then go do all the quests to get all the skyshards and skillpoints etc, it's actually going to be darn sight easier at VR12 in full set of purple/yellow gear to blast through VR1-10 veteran quests - no?

even grinding to VR5, then doing the quests for cadwells silver is going to make VR1-4 significantly easier. even in greens!

yet, you're the one saying grinding is a perfectly viable levelling option and dont want the challenge removed. although by grinding to max level and then questing through that content, you've nerfed it for yourself and removed any challenge it might provide you.

it's not really as if grinding mobs in a group is challenging either...

i think before you go any further in your argument, you need to try and level solo, through questing, from VR1-10, to gain some perspective.

I'm simply pointing out that it's an option. Personally, I'm doing the quests.

I did grind roughly 1/4 of a rank farming leather with a group and that's how I know it's fast. I was there for the drops and still got a massive chunk of exp in just like 15 mins. This was pre-patch. From what people are saying it should be even faster now.

But, yeah, I'm in the process of doing exactly what you suggest. So far so good although I dont discount the possibility of a grinding session here and there to break it up. Especially when I need the leather from the next teir or just find a ca.p I like.

Either way, there's nothing wrong with overlevelling if you are stuck st a point or just want to make it easier. Even says so on the splash screen tool tips.

Nice attempt at a gotcha, tho. It's not like I'm some purist bent on masochism...I'll keep things fresh, make things entertaining and will often take the path of least resistance myself. But, that doesn't mean I'm in favor of dumbing down the end game and making it fast and easy like 1-50 either. There's a difference.

No, fighting a VR mob a rank or two lower doesn't mean one has "removed all challenge." You are exaggerating and being over simplistic. You are also comparing apples and oranges of you think that was my point.

Tankqull

Sakiri wrote: »

yenkin2001b14_ESO wrote: »

This kills me to hear the griping, I played the original EQ from day 1, while the first few levels were quick, let me tell you, I played with the same guild for pretty much my whole experience and grinding with groups was a way of life. It took me 18 months to get a character to level 50. There was no expectation that you would get max level in a couple of days then whine about it because nobody there to play with you.

Also had to contend with the "Hell Levels" these levels were tedious and took days to get through, they did fix this eventually but exactly what you described here, exp. bar barely moved. It took a week or more of solid playing to get passed the level.

I will continue with ESO for awhile, to see what develops.

Yeah and back then Verant didnt have to wory about lost revenue to competition because there wasnt any.

And the grind wasnt enjoyable. Tthe time spent with friends, regardless of activity, was.

Youre trying to justify boring gameplay with fond memories of spending time with friends. It doesnt work that way.

and thats the point you have made friends while playing EQ, DAoC and what not - you simply dont in ESO and that is the true problem here...
the first time i added someone to my friendlist was due to kardala as it was the first time where you actually could do something coordinated more than one time...

gladen5rwb17_ESO

delete

aleister

Dekkameron wrote: »

Again you people need to learn the normal definition of grinding in mmos. Questing IS NOT nor EVER WILL BE grinding, no matter how much you call it so.

You're arguing about the definition of a completely made-up gamer-slang term. Apply the term to doing one dull quest after another is as valid as applying it to killing one unchallenging mob after another. The result is the same: boredom.