Dear ZOS - veteran levels are killing ESO. Please wake up to this.

Drazhar14

I was looking forward to exploring the other factions and I didn't understand why everyone was hating on veteran content, until I reached the second zone of 50+ and started to feel burned out.

They need to stop adding more veteran ranks or else its going to kill the game. Fighting enemies with increasingly higher and higher stats while our stats stay the same gets annoying after a while (yes you can get better gear with vet ranks, but the increase is minimal to stats, as it should be). I'd rather be able to enjoy new content than have to struggle through it. They should have made veteran ranks purely cosmetic and kept mobs max level as 50.

Right now, I am having more fun playing an alt through the same faction I have already done than playing veteran content in new areas. And yes, I have a build on my main that lets me solo groups of at least 3 enemies, but its not as enjoyable as the 1-50 experience. On another note, bringing stamina builds on par with magic builds would help me enjoy veteran content more.

AH93

I loved the veteran zones the first time I played through them, they however have no replay ability whatsoever for me, and I simply will not go through them again with another character, it's not the reason I'm not renewing my sub though (class imbalance is the reason).

aleister

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

aleister wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

aleister wrote: »

apterous wrote: »

"expgain too slow" now if you finish the game in few days, what the *** are you supposed to do then, huh?

PVP, craft, Craglorn trials, one of these days, hopefully they'll add real raids... for a lot of people the game starts at max level and everything before that is just a perfunctory grind they have to endure.

If you can't get out of that mindset, that isn't the developers' fault. They did everything they could to make leveling in this game an engaging, fun process. I felt no need to rush through levels, and this is absolutely not a game where the endgame is the only thing worth doing.

Stop trying to play this game like that-other-MMO-which-shall-remain-nameless.

As someone said in another thread: "WoW happened. Get over it.". I love raiding and it would be great in this game. There's not reason why we can't eventually have it (and if you don't like it, you shouldn't be forced into it).

I'm all for "getting out of this mindset", but the game needs to offer something better as an alternative.

They already do: it's called playing the game instead of grinding through all the content and then complaining you have nothing to do.

It offers low-level gopher quests with the difficulty set to veteran as a substitute for end-game content. You may be satisfied with that, but I am not. I'm very much looking forward to the changes the devs have indicated are coming.

Erock25

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

Hey folks,

We want you to know that we've seen all your feedback and concerns about Veteran Levels, Veteran Content, end-game character progression options, and we're in the process of planning some changes and improvements. We hope to be able to share our plans with you very soon (maybe in the next Road Ahead letter.)

I for one think this is a bit unfortunate. I did not read the entire thread but there is absolutely nothing wrong with Veteran Levels and I've had a blast of a time working my way up to VR5 now. I don't understand people complaining that they don't feel anymore powerful. I get a ton more skill points that open up all new and fun builds. Hell, most of my VR experience has been leveling up unused skills and I'm still managing okay and feel great when a new spec comes together. I just need three more levels in dual wield and every weapon skill will be above 40 with three of them at 50.

lostnknox

Its not so hard that I have stop playing but I find myself frustrated way more than I should be. Its a simple fix really. Just nerf the mobs damage and were good. soloing shouldn't be hard!

lostnknox

Erock25 wrote: »

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

Hey folks,

We want you to know that we've seen all your feedback and concerns about Veteran Levels, Veteran Content, end-game character progression options, and we're in the process of planning some changes and improvements. We hope to be able to share our plans with you very soon (maybe in the next Road Ahead letter.)

I for one think this is a bit unfortunate. I did not read the entire thread but there is absolutely nothing wrong with Veteran Levels and I've had a blast of a time working my way up to VR5 now. I don't understand people complaining that they don't feel anymore powerful. I get a ton more skill points that open up all new and fun builds. Hell, most of my VR experience has been leveling up unused skills and I'm still managing okay and feel great when a new spec comes together. I just need three more levels in dual wield and every weapon skill will be above 40 with three of them at 50.

VR 5 is a lot easier than the higher VR levels. Don't worry. You will see.

Erock25

lostnknox wrote: »

Its not so hard that I have stop playing but I find myself frustrated way more than I should be. Its a simple fix really. Just nerf the mobs damage and were good. soloing shouldn't be hard!

Well I guess it depends on your class, Sorc here, but if they nerf VR difficulty I will be very bored. Yeah I die sometimes but usually it is because of lag or I just missed a block/interrupt or the mobs outplayed me by spreading out. As I said in my last post, getting thru Vet content just fine and that is even with leveling up weapons skills from around 10.

lostnknox

Erock its because you are lower level vet than me. Its starts getting hard when you are going against mobs that are VR 8 and higher. I am a sorc as well.

Ohioastro

Akalukz wrote: »

butterfly442 wrote: »

All the people having trouble are solo.

Join a group, scream through the content, and end of story.

Or solo your sorry gaming self out the door.

No one will miss you.

Have they magically fixed grouping? As far as I can tell if someone has already done a quest or is further along in the quest... you are out of sync. Grouping for most is not an option.

I've been grouping through the veteran levels as a duo with absolutely no problems at all.

Endolith

I don't care if it is hard. I hope it is. I don't want to take my character of one faction that has completed the main story and go through and redo the storyline on another faction. That's lame, in my view, and I'm not going to spend time doing it.

AH93

I loved the veteran zones the first time I played through them, they however have no replay ability whatsoever for me, and I simply will not go through them again with another character,

neueregel

I agree. The loot drops on monster kills and chests are horrid... Many mobs dont even drop loot... I get 4 or 5 gold... I am VR5 and have looted maybe 10 purple items off kills so far. I loot every kill too. The chests are all a joke. I must have opened 300 or more chests, both normal and the ones you have to find with a map, I have never used any item I have found in them... they all get crunched at the smither... In fact, I dont think I have ever used any items I have found in the loot table, All I use is stuff I create. Loot is generally for crunching. I have played other games where the loot was great, rare... but you looked forward to maybe find those pieces that make it fun to play. Not this game... Even the set items are a joke, the bonus you get from them is minimal, and the AL and additions dont compare to what you can create yourself. also, going from one VR to another and making new medium armor yields me about 25 more AL total for all additional pieces... weapons are the same... no significant improvement... but the mobs improve much more % wise... where is the reward to advancing? I got a 'present' when I reached VR1, but nothing for the next 4 levels...

AngersRevenge

Vet content isn't a face roll and I'm glad it's not. I think it's just fine the way it is. Grant it, I play more for the story and less for the grind.

Not trying to brag but I have solo'd 75% or so of the world bosses, about 80% of the dungeons (public and solo dungeons, not intstanced), all the way to VR9 (my current level). Meanwhile I was leveling weapon skills at the same time. Yes this is Veteran Rank content I am refering to. using dropped gear. (I don't craft.) I did all this with a Nightblade, a class most people would consider to not be overpowered when compared to others. And, yes, I have completed every world boss, every dungeon (minus cyrodiil), and every dolmen (minus cyrodiil) in the game for all factions. Hate to be the guy that says it but learn to play your class and you will have no problem with VR content.

Personally, I am glad ESO isn't a face roll like every other MMO on the market now days.

Yankee

tdilloncub18_ESO wrote: »

Here is how my day goes lately.

- Get home from work and log in.
- Continue grind quests/zones V6-V7. Bored, log out after an hour and half (which included 30 min on banking and bag inventory).
- Head to PvP zone, do daily and continue to PvP until bored takes over about an hour in.
- Feed horse
- Log out for the night wondering why I am still playing....

There is no more hook, there is no more excitement. Hopefully the upcoming changes will mix things up and bring back the fun.

That is 2.5 hours before you are bored, which to me seems reasonable for the daily 50 cent cost of the subscription.

I too am at VR6 on my main and am questing through. 2 or 3 hours a weeknight is about all I have ever played most games, including ESO. By then I have some RL thing to do or at least want some other form of distraction.

The only time I used to spend crazy hours on a game was the first few years in WoW doing 40 and 25 man weekend progressive raiding. I am not seeking a game like that anymore.

I kind of like to take ESO a few hours at a time. It is a good game design for that IMO.

temjiu

Erock25 wrote: »

lostnknox wrote: »

Its not so hard that I have stop playing but I find myself frustrated way more than I should be. Its a simple fix really. Just nerf the mobs damage and were good. soloing shouldn't be hard!

Well I guess it depends on your class, Sorc here, but if they nerf VR difficulty I will be very bored. Yeah I die sometimes but usually it is because of lag or I just missed a block/interrupt or the mobs outplayed me by spreading out. As I said in my last post, getting thru Vet content just fine and that is even with leveling up weapons skills from around 10.

And it's also no suprise that you are playing one of the well known "OP" classes at this point. DK has it even easier. Although to give them credit, they may be the only effectively "balanced" classes out there. I personally think that if NB and Temp were as well designed and balanced as those two classes, we'd have less frustrated people in VR levels.

And I'll bet you are also playing in mostly Light armor. again, most people are realizing that if they want the VR leveling experience to be smooth enough to enjoy, they have to forego the idea that heavy and medium armors (and the associated builds) are out of the picture.

while this may not play directly into the concept of the difficulty of VR levels, it ties in to the fact that when you make levels like the VR levels, you have to make sure you class system and skill system is balanced enough that people can really design what they want and survive the game. I dare you to try the same VR levels with a templar 2h build (mostly stamina). or an NB DW build (with mostly stamina skills). heck, try anything other then light armor and staffs.

Its not just the difficulty (which although its big, it's not what everyone is focusing on), its the totality of the class and skill imbalances, the unforgiving nature of the VR content, the high prices you pay to make those mistakes. Add in 2 groups of armor (medium and heavy) that support skills that use a mechanic that is horribly misbalanced (stamina has multiple critical game activities that use it...magick only has one), and you can see why people are griping about dresses.

everyone is wearing dresses these days...heck, I started leveling a DK NAKED to see if it was really as easy as they had said. And it's sad...my naked DK is steamrolling content that my fully geard out of the teeth melee templar struggled through.

Just about every person I see who says VR content was easy has been leveling a DK or Sorc...or ran with a staff and light armor as their weapons. which is fine i guess if you like that. But as stated before, I thought I was playing Elder Scrolls, not Elder mages, or Elder staffs and sorcery.

In most games I play (or should I say enjoy), they can design melee classes that can make it through the game content just as smoothly and easily as casters, even if its slightly different and/or more challenging. Part of that design involves higher levels of difficulty that are challenging enough that you have to think about what you are doing, but forgiving enough that some class imbalance does not make the game unplayable for some classes.

I think a mild toning down of the mobs damage, and balancing classes more effectively (This is BIG) would go a long ways towards making VR content at least enjoyable by the majority of players. Then add options so people don't "have" to recycle content with little to no reward.

steveb16_ESO46

aleister wrote: »

It offers low-level gopher quests with the difficulty set to veteran as a substitute for end-game content. You may be satisfied with that, but I am not. I'm very much looking forward to the changes the devs have indicated are coming.

Precisely. I don't want the VR levels nerfed, I want them changed to something that is of the same quality as L1-50 and which makes sense.

humpalicous

I just think it is time for people to just play the game and enjoy it for what it is. If you continually glance over to the xp bar you will grow tired of the slower leveling in the vr content and perhaps lose your interest in the game. The concept is quite simple; if you don't enjoy leveling at a pace of roughly 100 hours per 4-5 veteran ranks then this might not be the game for you after all.

I myself tend to just go out there and do quests, explore, do some pvp and craft material to mix it up. While doing this I usually check my leveling progression a couple of times. This method really keeps me hooked and not all too focused on how much xp (or veteran points, same thing really lol) I have at the moment.

I must agree with people here that grouping in the vr content is probably the way to go since it makes hard encounters easier and in return makes your leveling progression quicker. But it is definitely doable to solo through the content though it is harder but that's what you have your ultimate ability for

But really, is the grind worse than any other MMO? What about WoW? The grind there wasat times insufferable compared to ESO, the same quest over and ocover again. Though WoW had one big advantage over ESO, namely the loot and dungeon system. Folks with experience from both games will know what I mean.

So here is the scoop; MMO's is time consuming, end game is difficult and the game will only remain interesting if you enjoy it and just play it without the focus on xp and levels.

nightside187b16_ESO

Erock25 wrote: »

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

Hey folks,

We want you to know that we've seen all your feedback and concerns about Veteran Levels, Veteran Content, end-game character progression options, and we're in the process of planning some changes and improvements. We hope to be able to share our plans with you very soon (maybe in the next Road Ahead letter.)

I for one think this is a bit unfortunate. I did not read the entire thread but there is absolutely nothing wrong with Veteran Levels and I've had a blast of a time working my way up to VR5 now. I don't understand people complaining that they don't feel anymore powerful. I get a ton more skill points that open up all new and fun builds. Hell, most of my VR experience has been leveling up unused skills and I'm still managing okay and feel great when a new spec comes together. I just need three more levels in dual wield and every weapon skill will be above 40 with three of them at 50.

Your playing a dk thats why.

spinedoc

SapperStew wrote: »

NerfEverything wrote: »

EverQuest: Next is in development. It is nothing like the original EQ. They are trying to change the way MMORPGs work. They are trying to fix what WoW broke. Traditional questing and vertical progression is gone. The is no "end-game" content. It is hard to describe, but I recommend watching some videos to get a better idea of the crazy stuff they are doing.

I never played EQ1 or 2 because I was in the Army for years and just didn't have the time to sink into games back then. I always heard people waxing nostalgic about the games, so on a lark not long ago, I bought into the EQNext: Landmark Alpha, even though any Star Wars Galaxies player had long since warned me about the Evil Empire of SOE.

I've played pretty much every MMO since LoTRO to ESO, and what I saw from the developers at SOE who are working concurrently on Landmark and EQN was just absolutely mindblowing.

Responsive. Personal. Interaction. With. Players.

From Developers. About their concerns. Likes. Dislikes. Core Mechanics. Crafting. You name it, and they cared what you thought. Then they did something even more freaking amazing. They changed the game based on player feedback. They release content like clockwork. They rarely break anything when they patch, but when they do, they stay at work half the night to hotfix.

Just an absolutely incredible experience with those guys, and though I took a break from Landmark to come play ESO, honestly, if they offered an overpriced 200 dollar pre-order for EQN tomorrow, I'd pay without question, sight unseen the first minute you could click the button.

I have so much faith in those developers, that it'd be worth every penny. I have absolute faith that they're going to make EQNext an unbelievable game.

Every game should be developed by such awesome people as those folks in charge of Everquest.

Man, as a VERY long time player of Everquest and Everquest II I'd be the very first in line to buy Everquest Next. Even though they are money hungry with the cash shop they do invest a lot of effort and listen to the community and put out a great product.

My only issue is the god awful cartoon graphics of Everquest landmark/Next. I know it doesn't bother everyone , but I like gritty, realistic graphics like TESO, that's one of the reasons I was so excited to play it. Still, when EQN gets released I have a feeling I won't be able to resist. Years as a hardcore raider in EQ/EQ2 and I miss that kind of community already versus the vast loneliness of TESO.

aleister

I don't think the issue is the difficulty of veteran levels, just the long, dull slog.

EvilEmpire

For me, it's not the grind that was the problem. I have thus far enjoyed the VR content, even if it was somewhat tedious.

I'm a DK sword and board, hvy armor, stamina build. Since the patch, I'm so squishy that it's not even funny. I ditched 2h, then bow, once I passed VR3 because I just wasn't sustainable. I play Solo, and with sword/sheild combo, I was able to work through till now (VR7).

The problem I have is that now I can't solo anything. I just tried playing again, and with 2200 life, overcapped Armor and Spell resist, a Watcher in Tribunal with 6k life just destroyed me a few hits (with me using all my buffs, and wearing my crafted epic/legendary gear). My death cap said the last 4 hits were all 600-800 damage.

Block seems to be pointless now. Where before, I could at least mitigate damage, now my shield seems to do nothing.

So my problem is that I feel like I've wasted my entire play time since pre-release. If I want to continue to play solo (except for the typical grouping for Dolmen, World Boss, Dungeon), I have to become a cookie cutter DK with light armor and a Restro/Destro staff. I'm working on my 8th trait on Hvy Armor research, have lvl 50 2h, 1h/shield, and Bow (plus 50 in hvy armor and med armor because I wear 5hvy+2med). All of the above mentioned seems like a waste now. I don't want to wear light armor and use a staff. If I wanted that ***, I'd have rolled a Sorc.

It's gotten to the point now where I don't really want to play. If I didn't already buy a 6month sub, I'd just cancel. It has just become so un-fun for me. I feel worse for my gf who plays a hvy armor, sword and board templar. She's already abandoned hvy armor and is leveling a staff, but I just refuse to start over AGAIN (already essentially did that went I ditched 2h, then bow). I'm so broke now that I can't even afford a respec. My gf chewed through the 50k I sent her just repairing and buying more soul gems to fill (VR3 content). Then I sent her more to respec. I've chewed through 10k in repair costs alone yesterday. Now I don't even have enough to respec myself, but that's okay, because I have no idea what to respec to. All of the weapon classes/melee I have worked on, and want to play with, are no longer valid in Vet. I don't like being forced to group in order to kill trash mobs, nor do I like being wrangled into having to do a FoTM build to stay survivable. I was looking forward to PvP, but ***, if I can't even kill trash mobs, how can I expect to be competitive in PvP?

madstoogb16_ESO

currently half way through VR4, I cannot do anymore of them boring quests in the zones.. feels like a boring chore.

Can never ever see myself making an alt with this levelling system and I love alt's...

One char to vet 12 will be enough for me in the current levelling state... that's if I even get to vet 12 before I decide to just give up on the game. (playing a nightblade so I hope you feel my pain)

Edit: I don't find the game hard, I just find the questing part of the game extremely dull and boring (in the vet zones), I loved 1-50 though.

Erock25

temjiu wrote: »

Erock25 wrote: »

lostnknox wrote: »

Its not so hard that I have stop playing but I find myself frustrated way more than I should be. Its a simple fix really. Just nerf the mobs damage and were good. soloing shouldn't be hard!

Well I guess it depends on your class, Sorc here, but if they nerf VR difficulty I will be very bored. Yeah I die sometimes but usually it is because of lag or I just missed a block/interrupt or the mobs outplayed me by spreading out. As I said in my last post, getting thru Vet content just fine and that is even with leveling up weapons skills from around 10.

And it's also no suprise that you are playing one of the well known "OP" classes at this point. DK has it even easier. Although to give them credit, they may be the only effectively "balanced" classes out there. I personally think that if NB and Temp were as well designed and balanced as those two classes, we'd have less frustrated people in VR levels.

And I'll bet you are also playing in mostly Light armor. again, most people are realizing that if they want the VR leveling experience to be smooth enough to enjoy, they have to forego the idea that heavy and medium armors (and the associated builds) are out of the picture.

I go light armor at times but for the past 1.5 VR levels I've been 5/2 medium/light using dual wield and sword and shield.

nightside187b16_ESO wrote: »

Your playing a dk thats why.

Nope, I'm a Sorc.

Yankee

temjiu wrote: »

while this may not play directly into the concept of the difficulty of VR levels, it ties in to the fact that when you make levels like the VR levels, you have to make sure you class system and skill system is balanced enough that people can really design what they want and survive the game. I dare you to try the same VR levels with a templar 2h build (mostly stamina). or an NB DW build (with mostly stamina skills). heck, try anything other then light armor and staffs.

Not really off topic if it affects the "VR levels are killing game" I guess;

I do not have direct experience the quoted above as I have only taken Templar/NB to VR1. But I have noticed several times seeing a player running out of a solo dungeon as I entered. They turn around and run the dungeon with me to kill mob trios and boss. Every time these are melee build players, usually a NB. I also have many times ran up just in time to pop a heal/help kill for a low HP melee player fighting 3 mobs and save them a death.

Although I had no problems on my 2H Templar or DW/Bow NB up to VR1, it makes me wonder.

Meanwhile on my Sorcerer up to VR6 anyway I have had no problems soloing the stuff meant to be soloed. I run a single target bar with a Resto staff (for Regeneration) and an AoE bar with a Flame destro staff. The only stamina spell I used is Immovable on the AoE bar. I usually only die when I screw up.

There are several VR10+ melee NB and Templars in our guild so it is not impossible, but I am thinking it is a harder climb than Sorc/DK.

You are probably right that these stamina builds need some love, as a weak build (or one with too high a skill cap) would make VR miserable.

Kaloran

I don't really have a problem playing the other faction quests in order to progress, but I do agree that it would have been nice to have the adventure zones (three of them, at least) available for the VR1-10 content rather than 10-12.

It helps that my preferred play-style is questing/exploration. That being said, I haven't really been paying attention to the story behind each quest since, well, it is a bit hackneyed that I'm doing things for factions that I truly have no investment in what-so-ever. (Rolled Covenant because I've always had a thing against elves. Everywhere. Now I'm helping them out... ah, well.)

Turkwise

madstoogb16_ESO wrote: »

Can never ever see myself making an alt with this levelling system and I love alt's...

Edit: I don't find the game hard, I just find the questing part of the game extremely dull and boring (in the vet zones), I loved 1-50 though.

These are my issues. On one hand they didn't want to "force" people to make alts to experience all the factions. The end results: nobody wants to make alts, period.

The very idea of doing all faction's content on every single character you make is unbearable. And it's the same old stuff over and over. The game desperately needs REAL veteran content, giving us NEW challenges and new stories! Stories that take their time and don't drown us in dialogue. Quests that take a while so we're not bored by the constant barrage of NPCs who need our help. Something to achieve, rather than yet another "okay. done. next." quest. I've cancelled, I'll be back when the game has actual content.

darthbelanb14_ESO

I average a level in an hour of play, and that's with me goofing around.

The funny thing is people will complain either way, whether leveling is too fast or slow.

ViciousMink

Catches_the_Sun wrote: »

We've also already seen it with the reduction of the threshold required to reach the questing achievement in many zones. The achievement & subsequent Titles rewarded have gone from something respectable to something you expect everybody to have. When somebody wore the "Pact Hero", I thought now there's a guy that is really dedicated....now it's just /shrug.

Slight nitpick, but some of those zone quest requirement changes were made because some of the zones had issues -- not bugs, so much as unforseen circumstances. If you didn't get the 'transition' quests that sent you to particular areas, you could easily miss quests and never reach even the minimum. This flies in the face of 'pick a random direction, there are quests everywhere.' They fixed it -- too much? Maybe, I've not been able to look at the new numbers and compare them the the old because my quest progression meters for all the zones I levelled up in are now blank.

rich_nicholsonb16_ESO

My whole guild apart from me has quit cause of the vet grinding, why they couldn't just let ppl grind mobs in dungeons to level and letting repeat xp + loot for killing dungeons is beyond me.

I personally didn't want to explore the other alliances but was forced too as xp through pvp was dreadful and would of taken far to long. Mob grinding in other mmo's were the best way and quickest way to enjoy end of game content which in my case is pvp and high level dungeons.

They should of just let us players level how we wanted, Eso fans could of quested, mmo fans could of grinded it wouldn't of made any difference.

Catflinger

Endolith wrote: »

I don't mind playing through the other faction's story lines. In fact, I'm doing it on alts. I have no intention of doing it through VR levels on a character that has completed the main story. Once I finish the main story on all three factions, with my alts, I will probably just stop playing and come back if/when they change VR leveling to something that interests me.

This is, broadly, where I stand on the subject. I plan on doing some questing and pvp in Cyrodiil once I hit 50, so hopefully that will break up the tedium. But I am a slow leveler, and if the thought process of the game designers remains the same -- that meaningful endgame PvE content isn't something important -- I'll have to leave, sadly.

Honestly, I believe that they originally planned for Cyrodiil to be endgame, and they were taken by surprise in beta by the fact that most people play MMOs for the PvE, or a mix of both. Now they're scrambling to adjust.