Hey everyone,

I wanted to open up a discussion (or maybe just vent a little) about how the new "Vengeance" PvP server has really hurt the classic Greyhost PvP experience. I know ZOS introduced Vengeance to address some long-standing issues—queue times, performance, population balance, etc.—but in the process, it feels like they’ve gutted what made Greyhost such a unique and vibrant part of Cyrodiil.

1. Population Drain

Since Vengeance launched, Greyhost feels like a ghost town. During prime time, we used to have full queues and intense battles around every corner—Keeps constantly flipping, massive coordinated fights, and real strategy. Now? It's barely active. Half the alliances don’t even bother showing up. The competitive edge is gone.

2. Split Community

Instead of fixing the underlying issues with Cyrodiil, they just created a separate instance and split the community. The PvP community in ESO is already niche, and now we had servers cannibalizing the same player base. It’s harder than ever to find organized groups unless you’re already deep into a guild and even then as a GM it is hard to run.

3. Sweaty Meta vs. Casual Fights

Greyhost always had a nice balance of hardcore and casual players. You could run solo, do small-scale fights, or jump into massive zergs. Now, Vengeance has turned into a sweaty, no skill casual zerg PvP fest with all the low-end players flocking there. Meanwhile, Greyhost is left with randoms, disorganized pugs, and barely enough activity to sustain a siege.

4. Loss of Identity

Greyhost had its own identity. The guild rivalries, the politics, the alliances—those took years to build. Vengeance reset all of that. Now it's just another PvP instance, without the history, without the community culture. It doesn’t feel like Cyrodiil anymore—it feels like an eSports lobby.

I’m not saying Vengeance shouldn't exist, but it shouldn't have ever been a question to have its existence in the first place. had to be a better way to integrate it without killing off what made Greyhost special. Thank you ZOS for damaging the hard work and effort ALL FACTIONS have put into creating such a fun, competitive environment just to do "testing" on issues that never seem to be solved. 10+ years and still having trouble with the mail system and why do I have to reload UI to open mail or port to another area? crazy. Maybe we should host a Vengece for PvE and make it so PvErs get NO DROPS. No Gold. No Craftable gear to have a chance to figure that bug out. Sounds like a great idea.

Curious to hear your thoughts—have you stuck with Greyhost? Switched to Vengeance? Is there still hope for the old server, or is it time to come to terms that whoever is creating these "ideas" wants to kill the PvP community.

I gave Vengeance a shot, I really did. I liked the idea of pure classes.

It was awful.

I’d say if we learned anything from Vengeance, it’s maybe a format for below 50 characters and that’s it.

Muizer wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Vengeance is history repeating itself almost verbatim. At the onset, it was introduced as an anodyne "test" to help determine which sets of systems had the largest impact on PvP performance. Okay, fair enough. But re-writing every single class skill in the game definitely did not comport with its billing as a simple test. And thus the skepticism begins.

Are you sure your sense of betrayal does not stem from your assumptions about the meaning of the word "test" than with anything ZOS have actually, explicitly said or done? Perhaps based on experiences with earlier tests they ran?

Personally I've always taken the emphasis they put on it being a test (like putting in the orange sky and all) as their way of reassuring people Vengeance was in early stages of development: Test, as opposed to 'finished product'. And everything they have said and done seems perfectly consistent with it.

The problem here is that what a huge part of the PvP community actually wants is a less laggy Grey Host experience. Vengeance in its current form (or anything remotely close to it) is not what the majority of players log in for multiple times a week. That’s been made crystal clear by the terrible populations in tests 2 and 3 whenever there weren’t heavy incentives to force people in.

So when ZOS first called these “tests,” most of us assumed we’d be participating to generate data for targeted changes to the PvP we still want to play every day, the Cyrodiil that people still log into despite the performance.

But ever since those first tests, ZOS’s own actions have made it harder and harder to believe that’s what’s happening. They’re slowly layering on new features and systems into Vengeance, they avoid answering the very direct question the community has asked countless times. What is the true purpose here? Is it to build a final Vengeance product no one asked for, or to actually make specific, surgical changes to live Cyrodiil so it performs better without gutting the systems that make it fun?

That’s why people are frustrated when they hear the word “test.” Sure, by definition it’s a test — but at this point it looks and feels like a test for a brand-new gamemode. Not a test meant to improve the PvP that the core playerbase still wants fixed. And that distinction matters, because the longer this drags on without clarity, the more obvious it becomes that Vengeance is a completely different direction from what the community has been asking for.

So if this really is about improving Grey Host, then just say it. If it’s not, stop pretending it is.

AI is:

1. extremely overrated
2. not actually AI but LLM

these chatbots have no actual intelligence whatsoever and basically just pull upon a vast database of information that its been populated (trained) on

i dont think we will have true AI for another like 20 years at least, and i definitely dont think some dumbed down energy wasting AI would have any place in the game

valenwood_vegan wrote: »

The game is already filled with actual people to interact with and talk to.

Ew!

Continue to be peristent. Posting your ticket numbers here is a step in the right direction so someone like @ZOS_Kevin can possibly move it up the chain.

Ignore any naysayers. Keep doin what you're doing. We as players are not to judge.

What @DenverRalphy said.

We don't need any further information from OP and what our opinion on the subject may be is irrelevant.

This is between OP, Kevin and CS.

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

As we look to the future, a couple of our primary goals are to improve overall build viability and also address longstanding concerns and feedback related to class identity in ESO. We are in the process of putting together our long-term vision and plan for this work to share with you.

While you work on the long-term vision communication, can you at least share your goals with us? I think the sooner we can see how you guys are thinking, the better. It will be an absolute disaster if we wait all this time only to find out some of the goals and the plans to realize to them are less than desirable. We don't want another U35 or U46, or another series of comments like those about consumables and hybridization from the AUA.

If you guys spend all this time putting together a plan and people immediately poke holes in it - are you prepared to adjust them? Honest question. Not responding or seeing this message creates the perception that you probably won't.

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Part of the process we're going through is this classes survey, which is intended to help us gather additional input for upcoming build viability, combat feel, class identity, and some other things we're interested in learning more about. It is intentionally high level.

When will you guys be diving into details? Are we months, weeks, or years out? It's concerning we're still at this high-level place when you guys have a lot of feedback already. The survey was nice, I appreciate the effort you guys are doing here, but it feels like you guys need to catch up on the existing feedback too. Is it just too hard to aggregate?

What do you hope to capture in surveys that hasn't been expressed here, Reddit, or by influential content creators like SkinnyCheeks or Hyperioxes?

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

We hear you and understand that many of you would like to see adjustments to various abilities, and have questions about balance, build viability, hybridization, and even class relevancy in light of subclassing. Those questions and requests are absolutely a consideration and part of this work as well, but this high level planning must be completed first and this survey is just one step toward that.

Thanks for the acknowledgement.

Once this high-level planning is completed, can we get an updated listed of your endeavors? Taking hybridization as an example - what work remains and when's it happening?

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

While it wasn't reflected in-depth in this survey, we are considering the impact subclassing and scribing have on build viability, class identity, and overall balance. We also do recognize there are longstanding desires for boosts/bonuses for those who wish to play a pure class.

Taking a step back - why wasn't subclassing a part of this survey? I don't know the value in talking about classes in a vacuum when subclassing has completely disrupted how they're used. I think you absolutely have to look at classes through a subclassed lens.

Anyways, I really appreciate the effort you guys are putting into. I just hope it manifests into something over next year and the game's in a better place.