- Do you have any general comments?

Yes, I saw a lot of people at certain times of the day, but unfortunately there was a bit of lag. I think Zenimax should impose this on PVE and also disable mounts that have special effects. I think there's still room for improvement in this area.

I invested a lot of time in Cyrodiil to understand and immerse myself in a world that I liked, but Zenimax stole that from me. I also bought all the DLC to be optimized with the latest sets released, and you stole that from me too. I don't even know if there's any way to appeal, but if someone speaks up to defend us, I'll follow them.

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

This is the official feedback thread for the new Vengeance Test. Please try out the new campaign and let us know what you think! Specific feedback that the team is looking for includes the following:

• Were you able to successfully get into large-scale battles?
  - yes. Just played tonight and we had so much going on all over the map. I like to play PvP more than Pve so had a good reference point from previous games.
  
• Did large-scale battles feel better latency-wise and how combat feels (responsive or not, fun or not, etc.)?
  - I usually get solid 5-25 fps when having a big fight, all my graphics scaled as low as they go, and only essential PvP addons on. Tonight I left all my graphics to PvE settings (High-Ultra) and my fps was around 30 in big fights. Amazing.
  -
• What you think of the simplified abilities?
  - Easy to understand but boring to use. There is no personal touch. The game didn't feel mine. It felt like playing a simulation. - Hard fixed resurses won't work: healer needs different resources than stamina DD.
  - No CPs makes PvP mains rub their necks with all the champion points they grinded for nothing. (also, almost fell asleep with the slow as heck horse)
  
• What are your initial thoughts on Vengeance Test?
  - I love that you guys are taking a long hard look on the Cyrodiil situation. I have always said we should have separate skill morphs and sets for PvP (without fancy visuals but still effective bonuses). But not like this.
  - Over simplification takes the exitement off. It is like being on a poker game and counting all the cards, knowing what others have in their hands. It was fun perfomance wise today, but I don't feel like going back to Cyro untill the event is over.
  - Unite Cyrodiil and IC with a unique playstyle. So PvP has own sets, own morphs on the skills. Changing, interesting rewards (not just the vendors)! PvP dailies have been the same for years, boring and never ending. (adding the monster sets from the bosses was a good touch) Ppl don't care about the telvar, if it is boring or annoying to farm it. IC could be vibrant and Cyro full with people. Players just need a reason to go there: rewarding, fun and engaging games. ^_^

I was able to get into large-scale battles.

Latency in large-scale battles was okay, but not noticeably better than before. Combat did not feel fun, largely due to the simplified abilities.

With simplified abilities, battles are a pure numbers game; whichever faction has more players online wins. There are no bomber builds or counterplay options, discouraging people from staying logged in and worsening the overall situation.

None of my characters became corrupted.

Initial Thoughts on the Vengeance Test:
The Vengeance test sounds like a good idea, but in practice, these changes are not enjoyable. The simplified PvP system removes depth, creativity, and build diversity, which makes the experience less fun for everyone and turns it into a numbers game.

General Feedback:
If Vengeance fully replaces Gray Host, Cyrodiil will be in trouble. While the forums only represent a small portion of the community, the broader player sentiment toward Vengeance is very negative. For example, my PvP guild, Blue Magic, of over 500 members, has little to no interest in this type of gameplay. The lack of meaningful builds removes uniqueness and creativity, which are core to what makes PvP fun and what makes ESO such an amazing game.

Vengeance is a failed game mode. It will be the death of PvP in ESO if ZOS continues down this road. And PvE will die shortly thereafter most likely.

JustLovely wrote: »

The next time ZOS mandates vengeance with no other options I'm uninstalling the game.

I hope this feedback is clear enough for the devs to understand it.

I had been at least moderately interested in the next test with the loadouts and perks, but honestly, after this one, and looking at how underwhelming the perks were on PTS, I'm honestly just done with this trash.

8 vs 8, its vaguely fun until you have to fight a keep defended by oils.

AngryPenguin wrote: »

Vengeance is a failed game mode. It will be the death of PvP in ESO if ZOS continues down this road. And PvE will die shortly thereafter most likely.

Not seeing this, there's > 3 bars AD, 3 bars EP, 2 bars DC atm at 8pm. So that's over 200 players per faction, on a week day, with a PvE event on.

Were you able to successfully get into large-scale battles?
Yes, some large scale battle occured. In particular, pursuing a scroll steal that turned into a battle overland. Other large scale battles occured in taking a keep. Particularly in getting through the doors to the main and inner keeps where the death bottleneck with siege occurs. one nice thing is that bombers and ball groups weren't around - we actually had some real fights.

Did large-scale battles feel better latency-wise and how combat feels (responsive or not, fun or not, etc.)?
Yes, large scale battles did feel better latency-wise, however, some death recaps still showed things that were not seen. A negative part with pvp in general is that one does not see many of the things that appear on the death recap, and thus cannot react to them.

What you think of the simplified abilities?
The simplified abilities are ok. The single target focus and limitations on some abilities create a fairer pvp environment absent of the exploitative bombers and ball groups. The problem with pvp is the spamming and stacking of 1. AOE burst damage. 2. Stuns/loss of character control. These are more absent with the simplified abilities.

What are your initial thoughts on Vengeance Test?
First, the community should calm down and participate so that you (ESO) can use the data from vengeance to improve the game. Refusing to participate is going to hinder real progress in Cyrodil. At the same time that the simplfied combat is fun, one can't help missing some of the skills players usually have. however, combat is more balanced and ball groups and bombers are non existant. These are the players that probably refuse to participate because their exploitative advantage is taken away. IF pvp was more balanced since Day 1 in 2014/15, this would probably not be an issue. one might even predict that pvp would be even more popular today with more servers/participation.
Do you have any general feedback?
The ball groups and bombers are the problem with pvp. This is not to take anything away from them...what they do is skillful. The ball groups are in voice chat and coordinate the targeting of immense AOE damage into an area to obliterate everything in it's path. In Vengeance, they can't do this. More fighting skill is required in vengeance. The solo builds in normal pvp also exploit for the most part spamming AOE damages. This has always been the trend in pvp. I used to be bombard/steel tornado years ago, then came the shalk/resto ulti, steel tornado etc etc. bombers. Shalks used to major breach, stun or root, and do large damage. These burst AOE skills are the problem because stacking them. Hybridization has also now made it easier to exploit all this damage because one can be in medium armor and spam high damage magicka abilities along with the stam/weapon abilities etc. Remember in pvp once upon a time in 2015 when a Dragon Knight Standard was a bid deal? Today a typical combo is a subclassed Shalks, Frozen Collossus Ulti, and spamming Brawler. The player doesn't need any real targeting skill. HUGE AOE damage needed for dungeon PVE is used in pvp to do massive damage in a matter of 1-3 seconds. Players can't react.
In addition, ball groups benefit from stacked heals. A group with several people stacking vigor heals along with some purges etc. Again, the coordination of these groups are impressive with their 5-10k weapon damage set combos and buffs, almost constant invulnerability, and movement.
So how to fix pvp with Vengeance? Fix AOE heals and AOE damage. Limit stuns and roots so players can block, dodge, shield, counter, etc. etc. Actually fight...not get rooted and then wipedd out in 2 seconds. Balancing things so players don't die as fast, but still can't be completly indestructable and be a nuisance tank...this would possibly be a happy medium. The DEFENDER needs to be able to react to the attacks, every advantage should not be given to the attacker. This allows for a real fight to occur. Bursts negate this good fight. Many other games have pvp cooldowns on stuns and roots, etc. The average player is exploited in a somewhat abusive environment by these bombers and ball groups who ruin the fun of large scale fights. Again - if they are that good - why aren't they in vengeance fighting single target fights? Because their exploitative AOE power is taken away? They refuse to play if they can't exploit AOE's. Spamming AOE's is PVE combat.
One thing about Vengeance is there is much more skill involved with regard to blocking, roll dodging, etc. It is more like a real fight...not an aoe spam fest. Spamming burst aoe damage is not skillful. The setups can require some, but then it is exploitative in actual use.
In short, regular pvp with all the different skills could work (with no need for vengeance.
One thing that should knock down players and where they should have no immunity is when hit with siege. This would curb some of the ball groups if they all were sent flying if hit by a ballista bolt etc. This is not the cure all.
Many people who want a more realistic fighting experience have exited ESO pvp a long time ago. All that is left are the ball group people who have fun running around slaughtering the general population, bomber builds, who do the same out of stealth etc. (over and over again...it is really lame). The average player experience these conditions and doesn't play pvp. With this in mind, getting a good read on pvp is difficult. The exploiters are probably 20-50% of the population, with the rest as cannon fodder for them to run around feeling empowered and heroic by spamming aoe's. Again...the people that are left are mad they can't feel all powerful now...and refuse to actually engage in a real fight and more skillful battle environment in Vengeance. Pity. One thing they can still do is groups can target 1 player at a time...burn 1 at atime quickly...but while doing so, they are prone to damage from others.
What is the solution? How can these toxic ball groups and bombers be eradicated while allowing the full extent of the game skills and sets? That is the question. PVP is terrible for the average player, who left long ago. The only ones left are those who tolerate this environment, and those who exploit it.
Cyrodil is awesome, abitious, and a tremendous achievement. The fact that there are not multiple servers with considerable populations is because of the toxic and abusive environment created by exploitative play that uses PVE AOE. The problem that exists is that these things are generally fine for just an average group that depends on each other to survive...or solos playing alongside each other. However, the exploiters of these pve skills are a real problem.
Last issue: Lag. A small group of players all spamming aoe skills in to a a small area, ultimates, mashing a rotation of skills, all supposed to take place within a second or two...is almost bound to lag. Who is at the disadvantage? The player who is dead and didn't know it until the death recap and see the immense damage that at least the 5 things there can show (more prob preceeded it).
The highest damage skill in pvp should be the fully charged MELEE attack from a 2h, 1h/sh, or DW. One can see them happen, and they are blockable. Everything else should be lesser than the fully charged heavy attack, because the fully charged attack takes TIME to complete. spamming a button and doing huge damage, and AOE damage for that matter, again - takes no account into the defender's ability to counter it.
*In revising pvp, however it is done, these aoe exploits should be taken into heavy consideration along with lag with the DEFENDER in mind and how they can play in the midst of an attack.
If one were to consider a spellmaker, and the cost vs reward of many of the skills, they simply don't cost enough in pvp, and should have a cooldown or something. Imagine, power, duration, range, area of effect, dot or direct. Fantasy AOE skills typically provide a slow heal, damage, buff, debuff, etc. if one had to choose between a spammable a high damage burst aoe, or a high damage single target skills, of course the aoe is going to be the favorite. one barely has to aim. (this brings to mindd another fact that melee weapon skills have too much reach...7m is too much...the ranges should be 4m.

AngryPenguin wrote: »

You don't know what the player caps are any more than anyone else does, outside of ZOS employees at least.

And you're clearly not referring to PC NA.

So your just making a massive assumption and calling it fact. We don't know that they raised the pop cap at all for this round of vengeance, and whatever the cap is, there are fewer people playing this vengeance than play on normal live mode. That's why the campaign balance has been so lopsided this time around; only EP has guilds that are playing this vengeance and 20 people is all it takes to dominate the whole map all day for EP during this test.

PC NA Has always had a bad PvP population, no-CP was dead even back in 2016 on that server. On EU it was maxed out and had more players on average than the CP one. Do keep in mind that America isn't the whole world

The pop caps are around 100 players on live. People did a lot of work determining the numbers which was ~100 at max pop. Before they cut the population caps down, back in 2014 it was 1800 so 600 per faction: https://help.elderscrollsonline.com/#en/answer/6533

Groups of 20 people? I've seen easily >2x that on each faction at a flagged keep, with lots of other keeps flagged with many players as well.

Last year they even tested with increased pop caps: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/648108/cyrodiil-population-cap-testing/p1

What's really interesting is people on that thread explaining why live Cyrodiil is dying and driving people away because of all the same issues that made people love Vengeance over live.