LittlePinkDot wrote: »

Aces-High-82 wrote: »

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

Decimus wrote: »

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

Why flame lash and not molten whip?

Why use Flame Lash or why Flame Lash should have an AoE check on off balance?

The two function very differently - if you hit the wrong target with your stacked Molten Whip it sucks, but you can probably still get a kill since you get full value out of it.

If you hit the wrong target with your Flame Lash due to inconsistent targeting, it just sucks a lot since you won't get the value at all, on anyone... nor do you get a big heal with consequent casts - cue the frustration.


An AoE check for Off Balance would fix that and make the ability feel less clunky.


As to why use Flame Lash, it's just better on a lot of builds (particularly Corrosive setups) due to the AoE potential and sustained pressure - I have different builds utilizing both morphs currently... Molten Whip is by far the less frustrating morph to use.

Yeah I meant why choose flame lash for PvP over molten whip.
Because of the refresh I dusted off my old mag DK I haven't used for years.
I'm not good with skills requiring finicky timing. It's hard enough to just get the soul of flame delayed burst to hit at the same time. Molten whip seems to hit harder. Ain't nobody got time to worry about if somebody is off balance or not. People are moving so fast. I also like how molten whip uses both stamina and mag. I'm finding DKs buff/heal skills plus soul of flame to be too expensive on Magicka if you actually want to keep all your buffs up. And I'm wearing wretched vitality as a Breton. Instead of dragonfire breath for major breach I'm using sundering soul wield with class mastery script and whirling blades for an execute so I can use more stamina for attacking.

Sustain wise you are doing something wrong BC Soul/Heart of Flame offers infinite sustain. Your stamina should go to blocking , Vigor and Dis Dragonfire (plus Hurricane If you subclass Stormcalling). DK is such busted - I have 6k+ wp, 13k pen, 32k HP, 1k+ HP reg, 40%+ CHC, 40k resis on a Khajit, those are stats in cyro. Not even talking about being at speedcap when sprinting or the insane HPS with cauterise, critsurge, Vigor and HP reg. Then you have 50% projectile reduction from Wings. If being zerged I can disengage with streak.
Absolute craziness. No need for wretched or roksa or Recovery food.

I've always been hard on resources. I'm talking about battlegrounds here so no CP.
I don't know where you're getting 40k resists from. Are you adding something that doesn't show up on the character sheet on console? I'm console only. I have 23k resists on with major resolve. Earth shield only lasts 20 seconds so I have to spend Magicka on that every 20 seconds. + Igneous weapons for major brutality and elder dragon heal for minor courage. Plus wings for snare immunity. And of course cauterize. It all ads up and buffs don't last long enough. Wretched vitality is great for resource sustain so I can use stamina skills better. All attributes are in health anyway.
I don't know where you're getting that much Pen from unless you're including Balorgh which I'm using too.

Fyi scribed soul wield for major breach is better than dragon fire IMO because I can use the DK class mastery script with it, and the range is further.

Resis: 4 reinforced heavy pieces, Gaze of Sithis, 1pc Chudan or similar, Hurricane, Vigor minor resolve, 2x Protective, defending Back bar weapon and Lady mundus

Pen: maces, 1 sharpend, 2 light pieces + Major breach from Desintegrating + possible sundered proc via weapon glyph

Sustain: Press Soul of Flame on every 4 sec

Attributes: Bewitched and then aim for 32k hp, Rest goes to Mag

I arranged sets to have Orders Wrath and RC active at all times.

Decimus wrote: »

Alright, after playing a lot with this ability in PvP on various different builds... can we get an AoE check on the Off Balance?

One of the most annoying things is landing Off Balance on your target (on multiple targets even with DW Scribe for example), pulling them, using your Flame Lash to proc Power La-, oh it landed on that one person in that cluster of opponents that in fact did not have Off Balance... and then you spend the next few seconds trying to proc your Off Balance and the Flame Lash keeps landing on targets (not the one you tabbed, who has the off balance... or anyone else who might've gotten it) without activating your Power Lash. And then you die.

Or alternatively you kill the Off Balanced target with Flame Lash... which makes Power Lash not proc.


This ability just has way too many annoying, clunky interactions at the moment that could be easily solved with slight design changes and a bug fix in case of the Flame Lash killing the Off Balanced target. I wouldn't be making this forum thread if this wasn't a consistent experience when playing with the ability.

Here’s the real problem … the Devs “reworked” DK but they made, IMO, a huge mistake. They didn’t elevate DK as a class, they elevated certain DK skills; that’s not the same thing.

When it comes to Lava Whip, Flame Lash, and the Power Lash conversion, specifically; I totally understand the concept of the off-balance proc requirement. It creates a pacing aspect that prevents the class from essentially being able to spam the skill (when used in the context of a pure class DK).

This makes sense and creates a concept of balance because the skill has a combination of high damage scaling, plus, (in the case of Power Lash) has an equally strong heal component which allows the caster to use it with near impunity. That’s insanely powerful. A skill like that should have a somewhat restrictive element but subclassed builds can essentially bypass that.

Now, here’s the major mistake. Because the Devs didn’t confine this skill or its conversions (ie Flame Lash > Power Lash) to strictly be pure-class DK only, they essentially hurt DK and everyone else by enabling subclassed builds to better synergize with one of DKs own skills better than they can themselves!

Meta builds whom are already running either Surprise Attack or Toppling Charge have a perfect setup to proc the Power Lash conversion with a near 100% available uptime (basically proc it immediately after the ability cooldown with no skill check). This is something pure DKs would struggle to do.

The Devs were supposed to elevate the DK class, making the idea of a pure DK more viable and competitive with the power of subclasses builds. But instead, what they did was allowed the very subclass users who were already over performing to take better advantage of DKs new skill and even further over perform.

Skills like Surprise Attack already scale to high outputs, activate quickly, are spammable, and guarantee Off Balance. Toppling Charge on the other hand delivers Off Balance and a gap closer, which, also has a stun lock bug which freezes the target during the gap close animation, preventing them from blocking or dodging and (basically) giving the caster more CC than what they should with that skill. Being able to follow up either of those with Lava Whip, Flame Lash, or Power Lash is beyond broken. … In a pinch a subclassed build could also lean on Cliff Racer if they’re running the Animal Companions line and need an Off Balance, but, what I’m seeing spammed, on constant repeat, is Surpise Attack or Toppling Charge + Power Lash.

IMO this is fixable by just confining the conversion portion of the skill to non-subclassed, pure DK builds only. A skill that delivers this much power scaling paired with the healing utility needs a pacing instrument as well as a skill check to proc reliably. But what we have now removes that and imbalances combat terribly.

I don’t know how this made it through testing or even PTS without it being insanely clear how abused this skill would be (especially in PvP) and how badly it would be used against the very class it was supposed to help elevate.

The Devs can’t keep having open season with subclassing. If part of the goal with class refreshes are to help make them competitive with subclass build potential then they’re going to have to start drawing lines around what can be subclassed and what aspects of skills are reserved only for their root class.