Decimus wrote: »

Alright, after playing a lot with this ability in PvP on various different builds... can we get an AoE check on the Off Balance?

One of the most annoying things is landing Off Balance on your target (on multiple targets even with DW Scribe for example), pulling them, using your Flame Lash to proc Power La-, oh it landed on that one person in that cluster of opponents that in fact did not have Off Balance... and then you spend the next few seconds trying to proc your Off Balance and the Flame Lash keeps landing on targets (not the one you tabbed, who has the off balance... or anyone else who might've gotten it) without activating your Power Lash. And then you die.

Or alternatively you kill the Off Balanced target with Flame Lash... which makes Power Lash not proc.


This ability just has way too many annoying, clunky interactions at the moment that could be easily solved with slight design changes and a bug fix in case of the Flame Lash killing the Off Balanced target. I wouldn't be making this forum thread if this wasn't a consistent experience when playing with the ability.

YES PLEASE… though maybe the skill might then need nerfing harder

Eso already has barn sized hitboxes....Tab targeting would make at least me loose any interest in the game.

Aces-High-82 wrote: »

Eso already has barn sized hitboxes....Tab targeting would make at least me loose any interest in the game.

Yeah…and those hitboxes are the problem. Why should I be completely incapable of hitting you just because you have some Daedric NPCs floating around, or because you’re shuffling around the people in your group who all have similar sized hitboxes?

Decimus wrote: »

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

Why flame lash and not molten whip?

Why use Flame Lash or why Flame Lash should have an AoE check on off balance?

The two function very differently - if you hit the wrong target with your stacked Molten Whip it sucks, but you can probably still get a kill since you get full value out of it.

If you hit the wrong target with your Flame Lash due to inconsistent targeting, it just sucks a lot since you won't get the value at all, on anyone... nor do you get a big heal with consequent casts - cue the frustration.


An AoE check for Off Balance would fix that and make the ability feel less clunky.


As to why use Flame Lash, it's just better on a lot of builds (particularly Corrosive setups) due to the AoE potential and sustained pressure - I have different builds utilizing both morphs currently... Molten Whip is by far the less frustrating morph to use.

Yeah I meant why choose flame lash for PvP over molten whip.
Because of the refresh I dusted off my old mag DK I haven't used for years.
I'm not good with skills requiring finicky timing. It's hard enough to just get the soul of flame delayed burst to hit at the same time. Molten whip seems to hit harder. Ain't nobody got time to worry about if somebody is off balance or not. People are moving so fast. I also like how molten whip uses both stamina and mag. I'm finding DKs buff/heal skills plus soul of flame to be too expensive on Magicka if you actually want to keep all your buffs up. And I'm wearing wretched vitality as a Breton. Instead of dragonfire breath for major breach I'm using sundering soul wield with class mastery script and whirling blades for an execute so I can use more stamina for attacking.

Decimus wrote: »

Alright, after playing a lot with this ability in PvP on various different builds... can we get an AoE check on the Off Balance?

One of the most annoying things is landing Off Balance on your target (on multiple targets even with DW Scribe for example), pulling them, using your Flame Lash to proc Power La-, oh it landed on that one person in that cluster of opponents that in fact did not have Off Balance... and then you spend the next few seconds trying to proc your Off Balance and the Flame Lash keeps landing on targets (not the one you tabbed, who has the off balance... or anyone else who might've gotten it) without activating your Power Lash. And then you die.

Or alternatively you kill the Off Balanced target with Flame Lash... which makes Power Lash not proc.


This ability just has way too many annoying, clunky interactions at the moment that could be easily solved with slight design changes and a bug fix in case of the Flame Lash killing the Off Balanced target. I wouldn't be making this forum thread if this wasn't a consistent experience when playing with the ability.

Here’s the real problem … the Devs “reworked” DK but they made, IMO, a huge mistake. They didn’t elevate DK as a class, they elevated certain DK skills; that’s not the same thing.

When it comes to Lava Whip, Flame Lash, and the Power Lash conversion, specifically; I totally understand the concept of the off-balance proc requirement. It creates a pacing aspect that prevents the class from essentially being able to spam the skill (when used in the context of a pure class DK).

This makes sense and creates a concept of balance because the skill has a combination of high damage scaling, plus, (in the case of Power Lash) has an equally strong heal component which allows the caster to use it with near impunity. That’s insanely powerful. A skill like that should have a somewhat restrictive element but subclassed builds can essentially bypass that.

Now, here’s the major mistake. Because the Devs didn’t confine this skill or its conversions (ie Flame Lash > Power Lash) to strictly be pure-class DK only, they essentially hurt DK and everyone else by enabling subclassed builds to better synergize with one of DKs own skills better than they can themselves!

Meta builds whom are already running either Surprise Attack or Toppling Charge have a perfect setup to proc the Power Lash conversion with a near 100% available uptime (basically proc it immediately after the ability cooldown with no skill check). This is something pure DKs would struggle to do.

The Devs were supposed to elevate the DK class, making the idea of a pure DK more viable and competitive with the power of subclasses builds. But instead, what they did was allowed the very subclass users who were already over performing to take better advantage of DKs new skill and even further over perform.

Skills like Surprise Attack already scale to high outputs, activate quickly, are spammable, and guarantee Off Balance. Toppling Charge on the other hand delivers Off Balance and a gap closer, which, also has a stun lock bug which freezes the target during the gap close animation, preventing them from blocking or dodging and (basically) giving the caster more CC than what they should with that skill. Being able to follow up either of those with Lava Whip, Flame Lash, or Power Lash is beyond broken. … In a pinch a subclassed build could also lean on Cliff Racer if they’re running the Animal Companions line and need an Off Balance, but, what I’m seeing spammed, on constant repeat, is Surpise Attack or Toppling Charge + Power Lash.

IMO this is fixable by just confining the conversion portion of the skill to non-subclassed, pure DK builds only. A skill that delivers this much power scaling paired with the healing utility needs a pacing instrument as well as a skill check to proc reliably. But what we have now removes that and imbalances combat terribly.

I don’t know how this made it through testing or even PTS without it being insanely clear how abused this skill would be (especially in PvP) and how badly it would be used against the very class it was supposed to help elevate.

The Devs can’t keep having open season with subclassing. If part of the goal with class refreshes are to help make them competitive with subclass build potential then they’re going to have to start drawing lines around what can be subclassed and what aspects of skills are reserved only for their root class.

I have no problem in Cyrodiil flame lashing my off balance targets...

If your PC is too slow in those massive fights then idk what to tell ya.

I think the ability is fine as is.

Aces-High-82 wrote: »

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

Aces-High-82 wrote: »

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

Decimus wrote: »

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

Why flame lash and not molten whip?

Why use Flame Lash or why Flame Lash should have an AoE check on off balance?

The two function very differently - if you hit the wrong target with your stacked Molten Whip it sucks, but you can probably still get a kill since you get full value out of it.

If you hit the wrong target with your Flame Lash due to inconsistent targeting, it just sucks a lot since you won't get the value at all, on anyone... nor do you get a big heal with consequent casts - cue the frustration.


An AoE check for Off Balance would fix that and make the ability feel less clunky.


As to why use Flame Lash, it's just better on a lot of builds (particularly Corrosive setups) due to the AoE potential and sustained pressure - I have different builds utilizing both morphs currently... Molten Whip is by far the less frustrating morph to use.

Yeah I meant why choose flame lash for PvP over molten whip.
Because of the refresh I dusted off my old mag DK I haven't used for years.
I'm not good with skills requiring finicky timing. It's hard enough to just get the soul of flame delayed burst to hit at the same time. Molten whip seems to hit harder. Ain't nobody got time to worry about if somebody is off balance or not. People are moving so fast. I also like how molten whip uses both stamina and mag. I'm finding DKs buff/heal skills plus soul of flame to be too expensive on Magicka if you actually want to keep all your buffs up. And I'm wearing wretched vitality as a Breton. Instead of dragonfire breath for major breach I'm using sundering soul wield with class mastery script and whirling blades for an execute so I can use more stamina for attacking.

Sustain wise you are doing something wrong BC Soul/Heart of Flame offers infinite sustain. Your stamina should go to blocking , Vigor and Dis Dragonfire (plus Hurricane If you subclass Stormcalling). DK is such busted - I have 6k+ wp, 13k pen, 32k HP, 1k+ HP reg, 40%+ CHC, 40k resis on a Khajit, those are stats in cyro. Not even talking about being at speedcap when sprinting or the insane HPS with cauterise, critsurge, Vigor and HP reg. Then you have 50% projectile reduction from Wings. If being zerged I can disengage with streak.
Absolute craziness. No need for wretched or roksa or Recovery food.

I've always been hard on resources. I'm talking about battlegrounds here so no CP.
I don't know where you're getting 40k resists from. Are you adding something that doesn't show up on the character sheet on console? I'm console only. I have 23k resists on with major resolve. Earth shield only lasts 20 seconds so I have to spend Magicka on that every 20 seconds. + Igneous weapons for major brutality and elder dragon heal for minor courage. Plus wings for snare immunity. And of course cauterize. It all ads up and buffs don't last long enough. Wretched vitality is great for resource sustain so I can use stamina skills better. All attributes are in health anyway.
I don't know where you're getting that much Pen from unless you're including Balorgh which I'm using too.

Fyi scribed soul wield for major breach is better than dragon fire IMO because I can use the DK class mastery script with it, and the range is further.

Resis: 4 reinforced heavy pieces, Gaze of Sithis, 1pc Chudan or similar, Hurricane, Vigor minor resolve, 2x Protective, defending Back bar weapon and Lady mundus

Pen: maces, 1 sharpend, 2 light pieces + Major breach from Desintegrating + possible sundered proc via weapon glyph

Sustain: Press Soul of Flame on every 4 sec

Attributes: Bewitched and then aim for 32k hp, Rest goes to Mag

I arranged sets to have Orders Wrath and RC active at all times.

Yeah I use orders wrath on front bar, wretched on backbar, monomyth and Balorgh. W2x Blood thirsty trait, 1x swift. 2x axes with precise traits. And Warrior mundus. How are you getting 6k sheet wpn Dmg?
No wonder you have alot of resists.
I tried stormcaller line and the sustain is much better. But pure class DK seems to be harder on resources.

OnGodiDoDis wrote: »

Perhaps you are struggling with Power Lash because it was not meant to be used in the way you are intending. It sounds like the play style you are describing is 1vX. It is absolutely possible to proc Power Lash on a group. You are given the tools to do so (Molten Armaments and morphs, and Soul of Flame and morphs). If you are struggling to proc Power Lash it is because you are trying to bypass the required mechanics that would make a target off-balance (you have to heavy attack first or interrupt with Soul of Flame). Given that we already have the tools to reliably proc Power Lash, any adjustments to make it proc easier would have to be accompanied by a huge nerf because it deals so much AoE damage. Use the tools that are given to you. This is a powerful skill and it needs a handicap of this level to keep it powerful, otherwise it will get nerfed.

The problem isn't not having off balance (DW Scribe is your best option for this btw), the problem is the clunkiness of landing that Flame Lash on the target who got off balanced in larger fights due to the game's clunky targeting.

It's easier to make the skill check for Off Balance in an AoE radius rather than fix something that's been broken for 12+ years.

The idea is to not have frustrating experiences in PvP where you do the right thing with the right intent, but RNG decides your Flame Lash hits someone else instead and doesn't turn into Power Lash. Why design something in such rage inducing way?


Fixing that changes nothing for 1v1 or Xv1 balance (nothing wrong with Flame Lash there), but would make the skill less annoying in situations where you're already at a disadvantage rather than have RNG annoyance on top of that.

No other changes are required.

NxJoeyD wrote: »

Decimus wrote: »

OnGodiDoDis wrote: »

Perhaps you are struggling with Power Lash because it was not meant to be used in the way you are intending. It sounds like the play style you are describing is 1vX. It is absolutely possible to proc Power Lash on a group. You are given the tools to do so (Molten Armaments and morphs, and Soul of Flame and morphs). If you are struggling to proc Power Lash it is because you are trying to bypass the required mechanics that would make a target off-balance (you have to heavy attack first or interrupt with Soul of Flame). Given that we already have the tools to reliably proc Power Lash, any adjustments to make it proc easier would have to be accompanied by a huge nerf because it deals so much AoE damage. Use the tools that are given to you. This is a powerful skill and it needs a handicap of this level to keep it powerful, otherwise it will get nerfed.

The problem isn't not having off balance (DW Scribe is your best option for this btw), the problem is the clunkiness of landing that Flame Lash on the target who got off balanced in larger fights due to the game's clunky targeting.

It's easier to make the skill check for Off Balance in an AoE radius rather than fix something that's been broken for 12+ years.

The idea is to not have frustrating experiences in PvP where you do the right thing with the right intent, but RNG decides your Flame Lash hits someone else instead and doesn't turn into Power Lash. Why design something in such rage inducing way?


Fixing that changes nothing for 1v1 or Xv1 balance (nothing wrong with Flame Lash there), but would make the skill less annoying in situations where you're already at a disadvantage rather than have RNG annoyance on top of that.

No other changes are required.

Anyone who’s played as a ranged main will tell you this has been a long standing problem and I don’t think there’s anyone out there who thinks the Devs are capable of fixing that.

The problem is, now that we have subclassing, there’s an inherent (overall) benefit to combat with the skil working this, somewhat quirky limited way.

If the choice is between broad, AoE, Off Balance application which makes Power Lash easier to proc, OR, the clunky target recognition that sees Power Lash affect as only Power Lash, then the best overall scenario for combat (as a whole) is to have the Power Lash not convert.

In PvP, the skill is already too easily synergized with other subclassed skill lines. Since we can’t have different core combat mechanics for PvP & PvE then the last thing we need is for this still to be even more easily applied; as others have mentioned, it would get a massive nerf and that nerf would be justified.

This is not about the power level of the skill, it's about whether it's fun to utilize. If the skill wasn't extremely powerful, I'd consider the DK rework a complete flop.

It, however, is not fun to utilize with all of its current clunkiness, and this is something ZOS should do something about. Making it less clunky in group fights isn't going to make DKs any more powerful in 1v1s or Xv1s, just less targeting RNG reliant in group fights/1vX.

This is something I hope they keep in mind when they rework other classes to also have similarly strong toolkits - they should make classes and their abilities feel not just powerful, but also fun and not frustrating to play.

NxJoeyD wrote: »

Decimus wrote: »

NxJoeyD wrote: »

Decimus wrote: »

OnGodiDoDis wrote: »

Perhaps you are struggling with Power Lash because it was not meant to be used in the way you are intending. It sounds like the play style you are describing is 1vX. It is absolutely possible to proc Power Lash on a group. You are given the tools to do so (Molten Armaments and morphs, and Soul of Flame and morphs). If you are struggling to proc Power Lash it is because you are trying to bypass the required mechanics that would make a target off-balance (you have to heavy attack first or interrupt with Soul of Flame). Given that we already have the tools to reliably proc Power Lash, any adjustments to make it proc easier would have to be accompanied by a huge nerf because it deals so much AoE damage. Use the tools that are given to you. This is a powerful skill and it needs a handicap of this level to keep it powerful, otherwise it will get nerfed.

The problem isn't not having off balance (DW Scribe is your best option for this btw), the problem is the clunkiness of landing that Flame Lash on the target who got off balanced in larger fights due to the game's clunky targeting.

It's easier to make the skill check for Off Balance in an AoE radius rather than fix something that's been broken for 12+ years.

The idea is to not have frustrating experiences in PvP where you do the right thing with the right intent, but RNG decides your Flame Lash hits someone else instead and doesn't turn into Power Lash. Why design something in such rage inducing way?


Fixing that changes nothing for 1v1 or Xv1 balance (nothing wrong with Flame Lash there), but would make the skill less annoying in situations where you're already at a disadvantage rather than have RNG annoyance on top of that.

No other changes are required.

Anyone who’s played as a ranged main will tell you this has been a long standing problem and I don’t think there’s anyone out there who thinks the Devs are capable of fixing that.

The problem is, now that we have subclassing, there’s an inherent (overall) benefit to combat with the skil working this, somewhat quirky limited way.

If the choice is between broad, AoE, Off Balance application which makes Power Lash easier to proc, OR, the clunky target recognition that sees Power Lash affect as only Power Lash, then the best overall scenario for combat (as a whole) is to have the Power Lash not convert.

In PvP, the skill is already too easily synergized with other subclassed skill lines. Since we can’t have different core combat mechanics for PvP & PvE then the last thing we need is for this still to be even more easily applied; as others have mentioned, it would get a massive nerf and that nerf would be justified.

This is not about the power level of the skill, it's about whether it's fun to utilize. If the skill wasn't extremely powerful, I'd consider the DK rework a complete flop.

It, however, is not fun to utilize with all of its current clunkiness, and this is something ZOS should do something about. Making it less clunky in group fights isn't going to make DKs any more powerful in 1v1s or Xv1s, just less targeting RNG reliant in group fights/1vX.

This is something I hope they keep in mind when they rework other classes to also have similarly strong toolkits - they should make classes and their abilities feel not just powerful, but also fun and not frustrating to play.

No developer can justify further breaking a game, mechanically, solely in the name of “fun” for some players.

The changes that you feel would make this skill more fun, would, at the same time, make combat, overall, MUCH less fun for a lot more people.

And again, it’s not whether it makes DKs more powerful, per se, it’s whether it makes the skill more powerful by having a more consistent AoE uptime with less of a skill check.

A skill like Power Lash that delivers the strong combination of high AoE damage paired with high healing needs a pacing element, for balance. I get that trying to target the opponent you set off balance in a bunch can be frustrating, but as others have pointed out, that also might not have been the most optimal use case the Devs intended for that skill.

So to just arbitrarily change the mechanics so that some can find it more fun, without considering the consequence that would have on combat as a whole would be short sighted, and guaranteed, if the Devs did make such a change you can bet on it coming with a numbers nerf.

Interesting.

Why do you think someone's experience would be any less fun if they had RNG chance of getting Power Lashes to death by a DK rather than it being guaranteed that this is the outcome if DK plays correctly & opponents incorrectly? To me, if I was someone dying to that, the mere possibility of it happening would make it an unfun experience. Luckily I know how to play against DKs.

Still, this scenario you deem "less fun" for the opponents already happens if the DK high rolls the Flame Lash on the right target.


Problem is that there is no "skill check" involved, only an RNG check in bigger fights.


Also I don't get the "you were not intended to use this skill in AoE situations" rationale - why make the proc AoE then? It seems specifically designed for those situations, and I bet you that similar clunkiness happens in PvE as well if trying to use Power Lash in AoE trash fights causing less fun and more frustration at the clunkiness of it all.

NxJoeyD wrote: »

Decimus wrote: »

NxJoeyD wrote: »

Decimus wrote: »

NxJoeyD wrote: »

Decimus wrote: »

OnGodiDoDis wrote: »

Perhaps you are struggling with Power Lash because it was not meant to be used in the way you are intending. It sounds like the play style you are describing is 1vX. It is absolutely possible to proc Power Lash on a group. You are given the tools to do so (Molten Armaments and morphs, and Soul of Flame and morphs). If you are struggling to proc Power Lash it is because you are trying to bypass the required mechanics that would make a target off-balance (you have to heavy attack first or interrupt with Soul of Flame). Given that we already have the tools to reliably proc Power Lash, any adjustments to make it proc easier would have to be accompanied by a huge nerf because it deals so much AoE damage. Use the tools that are given to you. This is a powerful skill and it needs a handicap of this level to keep it powerful, otherwise it will get nerfed.

The problem isn't not having off balance (DW Scribe is your best option for this btw), the problem is the clunkiness of landing that Flame Lash on the target who got off balanced in larger fights due to the game's clunky targeting.

It's easier to make the skill check for Off Balance in an AoE radius rather than fix something that's been broken for 12+ years.

The idea is to not have frustrating experiences in PvP where you do the right thing with the right intent, but RNG decides your Flame Lash hits someone else instead and doesn't turn into Power Lash. Why design something in such rage inducing way?


Fixing that changes nothing for 1v1 or Xv1 balance (nothing wrong with Flame Lash there), but would make the skill less annoying in situations where you're already at a disadvantage rather than have RNG annoyance on top of that.

No other changes are required.

Anyone who’s played as a ranged main will tell you this has been a long standing problem and I don’t think there’s anyone out there who thinks the Devs are capable of fixing that.

The problem is, now that we have subclassing, there’s an inherent (overall) benefit to combat with the skil working this, somewhat quirky limited way.

If the choice is between broad, AoE, Off Balance application which makes Power Lash easier to proc, OR, the clunky target recognition that sees Power Lash affect as only Power Lash, then the best overall scenario for combat (as a whole) is to have the Power Lash not convert.

In PvP, the skill is already too easily synergized with other subclassed skill lines. Since we can’t have different core combat mechanics for PvP & PvE then the last thing we need is for this still to be even more easily applied; as others have mentioned, it would get a massive nerf and that nerf would be justified.

This is not about the power level of the skill, it's about whether it's fun to utilize. If the skill wasn't extremely powerful, I'd consider the DK rework a complete flop.

It, however, is not fun to utilize with all of its current clunkiness, and this is something ZOS should do something about. Making it less clunky in group fights isn't going to make DKs any more powerful in 1v1s or Xv1s, just less targeting RNG reliant in group fights/1vX.

This is something I hope they keep in mind when they rework other classes to also have similarly strong toolkits - they should make classes and their abilities feel not just powerful, but also fun and not frustrating to play.

No developer can justify further breaking a game, mechanically, solely in the name of “fun” for some players.

The changes that you feel would make this skill more fun, would, at the same time, make combat, overall, MUCH less fun for a lot more people.

And again, it’s not whether it makes DKs more powerful, per se, it’s whether it makes the skill more powerful by having a more consistent AoE uptime with less of a skill check.

A skill like Power Lash that delivers the strong combination of high AoE damage paired with high healing needs a pacing element, for balance. I get that trying to target the opponent you set off balance in a bunch can be frustrating, but as others have pointed out, that also might not have been the most optimal use case the Devs intended for that skill.

So to just arbitrarily change the mechanics so that some can find it more fun, without considering the consequence that would have on combat as a whole would be short sighted, and guaranteed, if the Devs did make such a change you can bet on it coming with a numbers nerf.

Interesting.

Why do you think someone's experience would be any less fun if they had RNG chance of getting Power Lashes to death by a DK rather than it being guaranteed that this is the outcome if DK plays correctly & opponents incorrectly? To me, if I was someone dying to that, the mere possibility of it happening would make it an unfun experience. Luckily I know how to play against DKs.

Still, this scenario you deem "less fun" for the opponents already happens if the DK high rolls the Flame Lash on the right target.


Problem is that there is no "skill check" involved, only an RNG check in bigger fights.


Also I don't get the "you were not intended to use this skill in AoE situations" rationale - why make the proc AoE then? It seems specifically designed for those situations, and I bet you that similar clunkiness happens in PvE as well if trying to use Power Lash in AoE trash fights causing less fun and more frustration at the clunkiness of it all.

I don’t know that I agree here. There is absolutely a skill check involved. Being able to use Power Lash in a group setting to deal very high scaling AoE damage to multiple targets, while at the same time, receiving an equal amount of heals isn’t necessarily RNG. The way you’re presenting it is RNG, but you just want to spam a group, and that might not be the best approach.

For something that significantly powerful to occur there should absolutely be a high bar strategy or skill check involved. Meaning that the player could, for example, strategically target an outterlying enemy within the group, focus them, attempt to draw them in a way that provides the separation needed for recognition then set them off balance and apply Power Lash, which will affect the area. Yes, that’s a more intricate setup and it should be!

The idea that someone should be able to more easily receive a guaranteed proc of Power Lash is a bit ridiculous. Sure some might find that fun but it’s not hard at all to see how that would break combat even further.

We have players using Surprise Attack, rapidly, on multiple targets within a group and then utilizing Power Lash, that’s also a viable strategy to more readily proc Power Lash.

Combat is supposed to carry an aspect of strategy, of risk versus reward. Skill procs aren’t supposed to be a given they’re supposed to have an effort element that’s comparable to their output. What you’re asking for would significantly lower the effort aspect for the gain the skill brings, aka, severe imbalance.

There’s ways to use Power Lash against multiple targets, it’s just that the way to do so many not the the preferred method that you want to do, that’s what I mean about use case.

Power Lash is severely abused in PvP with near total impunity. Subclass builds have been able to turn this skill back on DKs and every other class by being able to better Proc Power Lash than DKs often can. I do believe that was a big mistake on the part of the Devs but if the skill is that broadly abused now, how much worse do you think it can get if you remove some of the barrier to the use Proc? It would be bonkers bad.

Skills like Power Lash paired with Fleetstep or Falcons already greatly reduces counterplay because the caster is out healing most incoming damage and has CC immunity, reducing both CC and kite effectiveness. The last thing we need is any mechanical change that reduces counterplay effectiveness anymore by enabling a greater chance at uptime in a spam.

Although you feel this kind of a change might make for more fun, an unintended consequence is that it would negatively affect combat by some degree. Whereas there are other methods one could take to use Power Lash against a group of targets, it’s just a matter of adjusting strategy.

If you have to target someone away from a group in order to actually be reliably able to proc your Power Lash while your acuity and corrosive timers are ticking down, then you're precisely describing how clunky this skill currently is in any group fight situation.

Hitting the wrong target with your bow proc or Crystal Frag is annoying, but does something atleast and often allows you to pivot to a different target. Hitting the wrong target with Flame Lash completely kills your offense and survivability in most situations - you cannot leave something that crucial to targeting RNG.


Also hiding inside a blob of players in order to make it RNG for your opponent whether they can do AoE/self heal or not isn't counterplay, it's just unnecessary annoyance.

The actual counterplay is block/dodge roll and most importantly outrange, all of which work great against Power Lash. There's also fire resistance jewelry glyphs, Dunmer/Breton resistances etc, many indirect counters if DKs/DK subclassers annoy you so.

Decimus wrote: »

NxJoeyD wrote: »

Decimus wrote: »

NxJoeyD wrote: »

Decimus wrote: »

NxJoeyD wrote: »

Decimus wrote: »

OnGodiDoDis wrote: »

Perhaps you are struggling with Power Lash because it was not meant to be used in the way you are intending. It sounds like the play style you are describing is 1vX. It is absolutely possible to proc Power Lash on a group. You are given the tools to do so (Molten Armaments and morphs, and Soul of Flame and morphs). If you are struggling to proc Power Lash it is because you are trying to bypass the required mechanics that would make a target off-balance (you have to heavy attack first or interrupt with Soul of Flame). Given that we already have the tools to reliably proc Power Lash, any adjustments to make it proc easier would have to be accompanied by a huge nerf because it deals so much AoE damage. Use the tools that are given to you. This is a powerful skill and it needs a handicap of this level to keep it powerful, otherwise it will get nerfed.

The problem isn't not having off balance (DW Scribe is your best option for this btw), the problem is the clunkiness of landing that Flame Lash on the target who got off balanced in larger fights due to the game's clunky targeting.

It's easier to make the skill check for Off Balance in an AoE radius rather than fix something that's been broken for 12+ years.

The idea is to not have frustrating experiences in PvP where you do the right thing with the right intent, but RNG decides your Flame Lash hits someone else instead and doesn't turn into Power Lash. Why design something in such rage inducing way?


Fixing that changes nothing for 1v1 or Xv1 balance (nothing wrong with Flame Lash there), but would make the skill less annoying in situations where you're already at a disadvantage rather than have RNG annoyance on top of that.

No other changes are required.

Anyone who’s played as a ranged main will tell you this has been a long standing problem and I don’t think there’s anyone out there who thinks the Devs are capable of fixing that.

The problem is, now that we have subclassing, there’s an inherent (overall) benefit to combat with the skil working this, somewhat quirky limited way.

If the choice is between broad, AoE, Off Balance application which makes Power Lash easier to proc, OR, the clunky target recognition that sees Power Lash affect as only Power Lash, then the best overall scenario for combat (as a whole) is to have the Power Lash not convert.

In PvP, the skill is already too easily synergized with other subclassed skill lines. Since we can’t have different core combat mechanics for PvP & PvE then the last thing we need is for this still to be even more easily applied; as others have mentioned, it would get a massive nerf and that nerf would be justified.

This is not about the power level of the skill, it's about whether it's fun to utilize. If the skill wasn't extremely powerful, I'd consider the DK rework a complete flop.

It, however, is not fun to utilize with all of its current clunkiness, and this is something ZOS should do something about. Making it less clunky in group fights isn't going to make DKs any more powerful in 1v1s or Xv1s, just less targeting RNG reliant in group fights/1vX.

This is something I hope they keep in mind when they rework other classes to also have similarly strong toolkits - they should make classes and their abilities feel not just powerful, but also fun and not frustrating to play.

No developer can justify further breaking a game, mechanically, solely in the name of “fun” for some players.

The changes that you feel would make this skill more fun, would, at the same time, make combat, overall, MUCH less fun for a lot more people.

And again, it’s not whether it makes DKs more powerful, per se, it’s whether it makes the skill more powerful by having a more consistent AoE uptime with less of a skill check.

A skill like Power Lash that delivers the strong combination of high AoE damage paired with high healing needs a pacing element, for balance. I get that trying to target the opponent you set off balance in a bunch can be frustrating, but as others have pointed out, that also might not have been the most optimal use case the Devs intended for that skill.

So to just arbitrarily change the mechanics so that some can find it more fun, without considering the consequence that would have on combat as a whole would be short sighted, and guaranteed, if the Devs did make such a change you can bet on it coming with a numbers nerf.

Interesting.

Why do you think someone's experience would be any less fun if they had RNG chance of getting Power Lashes to death by a DK rather than it being guaranteed that this is the outcome if DK plays correctly & opponents incorrectly? To me, if I was someone dying to that, the mere possibility of it happening would make it an unfun experience. Luckily I know how to play against DKs.

Still, this scenario you deem "less fun" for the opponents already happens if the DK high rolls the Flame Lash on the right target.


Problem is that there is no "skill check" involved, only an RNG check in bigger fights.


Also I don't get the "you were not intended to use this skill in AoE situations" rationale - why make the proc AoE then? It seems specifically designed for those situations, and I bet you that similar clunkiness happens in PvE as well if trying to use Power Lash in AoE trash fights causing less fun and more frustration at the clunkiness of it all.

I don’t know that I agree here. There is absolutely a skill check involved. Being able to use Power Lash in a group setting to deal very high scaling AoE damage to multiple targets, while at the same time, receiving an equal amount of heals isn’t necessarily RNG. The way you’re presenting it is RNG, but you just want to spam a group, and that might not be the best approach.

For something that significantly powerful to occur there should absolutely be a high bar strategy or skill check involved. Meaning that the player could, for example, strategically target an outterlying enemy within the group, focus them, attempt to draw them in a way that provides the separation needed for recognition then set them off balance and apply Power Lash, which will affect the area. Yes, that’s a more intricate setup and it should be!

The idea that someone should be able to more easily receive a guaranteed proc of Power Lash is a bit ridiculous. Sure some might find that fun but it’s not hard at all to see how that would break combat even further.

We have players using Surprise Attack, rapidly, on multiple targets within a group and then utilizing Power Lash, that’s also a viable strategy to more readily proc Power Lash.

Combat is supposed to carry an aspect of strategy, of risk versus reward. Skill procs aren’t supposed to be a given they’re supposed to have an effort element that’s comparable to their output. What you’re asking for would significantly lower the effort aspect for the gain the skill brings, aka, severe imbalance.

There’s ways to use Power Lash against multiple targets, it’s just that the way to do so many not the the preferred method that you want to do, that’s what I mean about use case.

Power Lash is severely abused in PvP with near total impunity. Subclass builds have been able to turn this skill back on DKs and every other class by being able to better Proc Power Lash than DKs often can. I do believe that was a big mistake on the part of the Devs but if the skill is that broadly abused now, how much worse do you think it can get if you remove some of the barrier to the use Proc? It would be bonkers bad.

Skills like Power Lash paired with Fleetstep or Falcons already greatly reduces counterplay because the caster is out healing most incoming damage and has CC immunity, reducing both CC and kite effectiveness. The last thing we need is any mechanical change that reduces counterplay effectiveness anymore by enabling a greater chance at uptime in a spam.

Although you feel this kind of a change might make for more fun, an unintended consequence is that it would negatively affect combat by some degree. Whereas there are other methods one could take to use Power Lash against a group of targets, it’s just a matter of adjusting strategy.

If you have to target someone away from a group in order to actually be reliably able to proc your Power Lash while your acuity and corrosive timers are ticking down, then you're precisely describing how clunky this skill currently is in any group fight situation.

Hitting the wrong target with your bow proc or Crystal Frag is annoying, but does something atleast and often allows you to pivot to a different target. Hitting the wrong target with Flame Lash completely kills your offense and survivability in most situations - you cannot leave something that crucial to targeting RNG.


Also hiding inside a blob of players in order to make it RNG for your opponent whether they can do AoE/self heal or not isn't counterplay, it's just unnecessary annoyance.

The actual counterplay is block/dodge roll and most importantly outrange, all of which work great against Power Lash. There's also fire resistance jewelry glyphs, Dunmer/Breton resistances etc, many indirect counters if DKs/DK subclassers annoy you so.

I didn’t say you had to kite the opponent across Cyrodill, I said focus and aggro them enough to get a clear target recognition. An AoE of 8m for a skill with that much output potential is generous. The setup for that isn’t so much clunky it’s more strategic. You shouldn’t be able to just target one enemy within a ball group for off balance and just spam, that’s far too easy for what one gets with this skill.

I don’t deny that target recognition in ESO is poor, it very much is, however, the way the mechanics around this skill were built appear to use that as a poor man’s pacing element. A skill like Power Lash shouldn’t be easily spammable or proccable, it SHOULD have some aspect of challenge to it.

I also don’t agree. If you’re putting your proverbial (all of your eggs in one basket) so to speak, over relying on Power Lash then I question your play style or build. Even if you hit the wrong target it’s not as if Flame Lash isn’t doing significant damage output anyway. If you’re in a PvE environment then you should have a healing component in an actual healer that minimizes the survivability of not having the heal from Power Lash. If you’re in PvP then you’re expected to have some aspect of durability in your build anyway. If your choice for durability is the heal factor from Power Lash then, IMO, that’s a poorer choice.

Counterplay is already reduced. We hear the same suggestions over and over: block & Dodge, to the point that’s it’s become over prioritized. While that is true, block & Dodge are both important, the reality is that the answer to damage mitigation cannot, realistically, just be all block and dodge. Namely because not every player is a stam based build. Further, subclassing. Subclassing has given everyone access to all mechanics which eliminated class limitations. There is no such thing as out of range anymore; between all of the mobility buffs and gap closers than everyone can now access as well as the increase in access to more CC there is no staying out of range, at least not from good players. Power Lash is an 8m AoE, provided the caster has any of a number of mobility buffs + CC immunity they can just run you down, which is exactly what we see nowdays. Those old counterplay methods have changed since subclassing.

“More fun” for some, doesn’t mean better for the game, overall. If we didn’t have subclassing I would agree with your suggestion here, but unfortunately, subclassing isn’t going away. When we look at any skill in ESO now we have to measure its potential use not just in the sense of the root class it belongs to but how it can be used outside of that to reach a full ceiling. Power Lash is already way too easy to proc, even on a group of enemies, it just takes a method different than what you want to do, but it’s already too easy.

TBH, I quite dislike the "stack" mechanic for Power Lash and wish that it functioned as the old Power Lash used to:

If a target is Off-Balance then DO THE THING

Decimus wrote: »

NxJoeyD wrote: »

Decimus wrote: »

NxJoeyD wrote: »

Decimus wrote: »

NxJoeyD wrote: »

Decimus wrote: »

NxJoeyD wrote: »

Decimus wrote: »

OnGodiDoDis wrote: »

Perhaps you are struggling with Power Lash because it was not meant to be used in the way you are intending. It sounds like the play style you are describing is 1vX. It is absolutely possible to proc Power Lash on a group. You are given the tools to do so (Molten Armaments and morphs, and Soul of Flame and morphs). If you are struggling to proc Power Lash it is because you are trying to bypass the required mechanics that would make a target off-balance (you have to heavy attack first or interrupt with Soul of Flame). Given that we already have the tools to reliably proc Power Lash, any adjustments to make it proc easier would have to be accompanied by a huge nerf because it deals so much AoE damage. Use the tools that are given to you. This is a powerful skill and it needs a handicap of this level to keep it powerful, otherwise it will get nerfed.

The problem isn't not having off balance (DW Scribe is your best option for this btw), the problem is the clunkiness of landing that Flame Lash on the target who got off balanced in larger fights due to the game's clunky targeting.

It's easier to make the skill check for Off Balance in an AoE radius rather than fix something that's been broken for 12+ years.

The idea is to not have frustrating experiences in PvP where you do the right thing with the right intent, but RNG decides your Flame Lash hits someone else instead and doesn't turn into Power Lash. Why design something in such rage inducing way?


Fixing that changes nothing for 1v1 or Xv1 balance (nothing wrong with Flame Lash there), but would make the skill less annoying in situations where you're already at a disadvantage rather than have RNG annoyance on top of that.

No other changes are required.

Anyone who’s played as a ranged main will tell you this has been a long standing problem and I don’t think there’s anyone out there who thinks the Devs are capable of fixing that.

The problem is, now that we have subclassing, there’s an inherent (overall) benefit to combat with the skil working this, somewhat quirky limited way.

If the choice is between broad, AoE, Off Balance application which makes Power Lash easier to proc, OR, the clunky target recognition that sees Power Lash affect as only Power Lash, then the best overall scenario for combat (as a whole) is to have the Power Lash not convert.

In PvP, the skill is already too easily synergized with other subclassed skill lines. Since we can’t have different core combat mechanics for PvP & PvE then the last thing we need is for this still to be even more easily applied; as others have mentioned, it would get a massive nerf and that nerf would be justified.

This is not about the power level of the skill, it's about whether it's fun to utilize. If the skill wasn't extremely powerful, I'd consider the DK rework a complete flop.

It, however, is not fun to utilize with all of its current clunkiness, and this is something ZOS should do something about. Making it less clunky in group fights isn't going to make DKs any more powerful in 1v1s or Xv1s, just less targeting RNG reliant in group fights/1vX.

This is something I hope they keep in mind when they rework other classes to also have similarly strong toolkits - they should make classes and their abilities feel not just powerful, but also fun and not frustrating to play.

No developer can justify further breaking a game, mechanically, solely in the name of “fun” for some players.

The changes that you feel would make this skill more fun, would, at the same time, make combat, overall, MUCH less fun for a lot more people.

And again, it’s not whether it makes DKs more powerful, per se, it’s whether it makes the skill more powerful by having a more consistent AoE uptime with less of a skill check.

A skill like Power Lash that delivers the strong combination of high AoE damage paired with high healing needs a pacing element, for balance. I get that trying to target the opponent you set off balance in a bunch can be frustrating, but as others have pointed out, that also might not have been the most optimal use case the Devs intended for that skill.

So to just arbitrarily change the mechanics so that some can find it more fun, without considering the consequence that would have on combat as a whole would be short sighted, and guaranteed, if the Devs did make such a change you can bet on it coming with a numbers nerf.

Interesting.

Why do you think someone's experience would be any less fun if they had RNG chance of getting Power Lashes to death by a DK rather than it being guaranteed that this is the outcome if DK plays correctly & opponents incorrectly? To me, if I was someone dying to that, the mere possibility of it happening would make it an unfun experience. Luckily I know how to play against DKs.

Still, this scenario you deem "less fun" for the opponents already happens if the DK high rolls the Flame Lash on the right target.


Problem is that there is no "skill check" involved, only an RNG check in bigger fights.


Also I don't get the "you were not intended to use this skill in AoE situations" rationale - why make the proc AoE then? It seems specifically designed for those situations, and I bet you that similar clunkiness happens in PvE as well if trying to use Power Lash in AoE trash fights causing less fun and more frustration at the clunkiness of it all.

I don’t know that I agree here. There is absolutely a skill check involved. Being able to use Power Lash in a group setting to deal very high scaling AoE damage to multiple targets, while at the same time, receiving an equal amount of heals isn’t necessarily RNG. The way you’re presenting it is RNG, but you just want to spam a group, and that might not be the best approach.

For something that significantly powerful to occur there should absolutely be a high bar strategy or skill check involved. Meaning that the player could, for example, strategically target an outterlying enemy within the group, focus them, attempt to draw them in a way that provides the separation needed for recognition then set them off balance and apply Power Lash, which will affect the area. Yes, that’s a more intricate setup and it should be!

The idea that someone should be able to more easily receive a guaranteed proc of Power Lash is a bit ridiculous. Sure some might find that fun but it’s not hard at all to see how that would break combat even further.

We have players using Surprise Attack, rapidly, on multiple targets within a group and then utilizing Power Lash, that’s also a viable strategy to more readily proc Power Lash.

Combat is supposed to carry an aspect of strategy, of risk versus reward. Skill procs aren’t supposed to be a given they’re supposed to have an effort element that’s comparable to their output. What you’re asking for would significantly lower the effort aspect for the gain the skill brings, aka, severe imbalance.

There’s ways to use Power Lash against multiple targets, it’s just that the way to do so many not the the preferred method that you want to do, that’s what I mean about use case.

Power Lash is severely abused in PvP with near total impunity. Subclass builds have been able to turn this skill back on DKs and every other class by being able to better Proc Power Lash than DKs often can. I do believe that was a big mistake on the part of the Devs but if the skill is that broadly abused now, how much worse do you think it can get if you remove some of the barrier to the use Proc? It would be bonkers bad.

Skills like Power Lash paired with Fleetstep or Falcons already greatly reduces counterplay because the caster is out healing most incoming damage and has CC immunity, reducing both CC and kite effectiveness. The last thing we need is any mechanical change that reduces counterplay effectiveness anymore by enabling a greater chance at uptime in a spam.

Although you feel this kind of a change might make for more fun, an unintended consequence is that it would negatively affect combat by some degree. Whereas there are other methods one could take to use Power Lash against a group of targets, it’s just a matter of adjusting strategy.

If you have to target someone away from a group in order to actually be reliably able to proc your Power Lash while your acuity and corrosive timers are ticking down, then you're precisely describing how clunky this skill currently is in any group fight situation.

Hitting the wrong target with your bow proc or Crystal Frag is annoying, but does something atleast and often allows you to pivot to a different target. Hitting the wrong target with Flame Lash completely kills your offense and survivability in most situations - you cannot leave something that crucial to targeting RNG.


Also hiding inside a blob of players in order to make it RNG for your opponent whether they can do AoE/self heal or not isn't counterplay, it's just unnecessary annoyance.

The actual counterplay is block/dodge roll and most importantly outrange, all of which work great against Power Lash. There's also fire resistance jewelry glyphs, Dunmer/Breton resistances etc, many indirect counters if DKs/DK subclassers annoy you so.

I didn’t say you had to kite the opponent across Cyrodill, I said focus and aggro them enough to get a clear target recognition. An AoE of 8m for a skill with that much output potential is generous. The setup for that isn’t so much clunky it’s more strategic. You shouldn’t be able to just target one enemy within a ball group for off balance and just spam, that’s far too easy for what one gets with this skill.

Why? I don't see why ball groups should have any additional benefits on top of ones they already have. Besides, you won't kill a ball group by just spamming Power Lash even if you could land the Flame Lash on the right target, you'll also need acuity, 7 divines shadow mundus, probably a gorethief proc ready & atleast 2-3 other DKs doing the same.

NxJoeyD wrote: »

I don’t deny that target recognition in ESO is poor, it very much is, however, the way the mechanics around this skill were built appear to use that as a poor man’s pacing element. A skill like Power Lash shouldn’t be easily spammable or proccable, it SHOULD have some aspect of challenge to it.

It is very easily proccable and literally can never be "spammable" with its 20s internal cooldown. You can track the off balance timer of your opponents with an addon like Off Balance Tracker and the Flame Lash cooldown with Fancy Action Bar+. The only form of clunkiness this ability has that cannot be fixed with addons or playstyle adjustments is the targeting, unless you intentionally turn your AoE nuker from a XvX/1vX machine into a single target dueling build. A playstyle for which Molten Whip works better in most cases anyway.

NxJoeyD wrote: »

I also don’t agree. If you’re putting your proverbial (all of your eggs in one basket) so to speak, over relying on Power Lash then I question your play style or build. Even if you hit the wrong target it’s not as if Flame Lash isn’t doing significant damage output anyway. If you’re in a PvE environment then you should have a healing component in an actual healer that minimizes the survivability of not having the heal from Power Lash. If you’re in PvP then you’re expected to have some aspect of durability in your build anyway. If your choice for durability is the heal factor from Power Lash then, IMO, that’s a poorer choice.

You are doing literally 70% less damage and only hitting one target if utilizing Flame Lash rather than Power Lash and rather than 14k tooltip heal you're getting a 4k tooltip heal. Needless to say this results in a death (even in corrosive if fighting multiple people), not to misplay but to clunkiness and RNG - nothing more unfun and rage inducing than that.

NxJoeyD wrote: »

Counterplay is already reduced. We hear the same suggestions over and over: block & Dodge, to the point that’s it’s become over prioritized. While that is true, block & Dodge are both important, the reality is that the answer to damage mitigation cannot, realistically, just be all block and dodge. Namely because not every player is a stam based build. Further, subclassing. Subclassing has given everyone access to all mechanics which eliminated class limitations. There is no such thing as out of range anymore; between all of the mobility buffs and gap closers than everyone can now access as well as the increase in access to more CC there is no staying out of range, at least not from good players. Power Lash is an 8m AoE, provided the caster has any of a number of mobility buffs + CC immunity they can just run you down, which is exactly what we see nowdays. Those old counterplay methods have changed since subclassing.

“More fun” for some, doesn’t mean better for the game, overall. If we didn’t have subclassing I would agree with your suggestion here, but unfortunately, subclassing isn’t going away. When we look at any skill in ESO now we have to measure its potential use not just in the sense of the root class it belongs to but how it can be used outside of that to reach a full ceiling. Power Lash is already way too easy to proc, even on a group of enemies, it just takes a method different than what you want to do, but it’s already too easy.

Well, what if I told you the ones suffering from this clunkiness the most are pure DKs wanting to play around Corrosive, not the subclassers that tend to be more single target oriented anyway?

Kiting still works very well, I do it every day even in duels in open space with no LOS vs DKs using wings. I think the problem most people have is that they don't build around mobility enough themselves - Streak/BoL or 2 Swift (speed cap while sprinting with Major Expedition) is all you need... or you adapt to being slower and block/dodge the Power Lash window.


Also you won't have to worry about subclassing much longer, we can start calling it suboptimizing instead after Update 50 & Class Mastery Passives.

Flame Lash nor Power Lash are delivering any benefits to ball groups. We've had long standing solutions to ball groups. Bomber builds have been a things for a long time, and yes, some aspects of those builds do get abused in PvP to grab damage and kills even against non-zerg groups but that's a whole other topic.

Power Lash is unique in that it provides a high scale AoE damge output paired with an equal value heal factor. Some of the allocation's you're suggesting are already part of the crit meta, Shadow or Thief munus, acuity, those have been staples for a while now, those are not some high barrier to use; they're already out there. As for Divines, no, one doesn't need that. it's easy enough to scale Power Lash to very high base tool tips without a single divines.

At that output a player can realistically expect to land high base (non crit) damage, against even well built opponents that's in-line with some of the hardest hitting skills in PvP. It's not difficult to get Power Lash to land upwards of 12k to 15k (after resistances) on a high crit build. Given that we're talking Merciless Resolve levels of scaling, but, instead of being limited to one target Power Lash is an AoE and also rather than providing only 50% healing you're getting 100%, no, you don't need 2 or 3 DKs attacking with Power Lash to slap a group, you only need one.

And to reiterate, you don't even need DKs doing it, NB's can do this, Templars can do this, Wardens can do this, etc. .. One of the big problems is that the skill wasn't confined to DKs and we're not seeing it used in solely DK builds.

When I say easily spammable I don't mean bypassing the 20 second cooldown, I mean too easily repeatable. The skill currently is too easy to proc, even with taking into account the poor target recognition. This is because, again, the skill isn't limited to DKs or pure DK's only. It's not only possible but commonplace for subclassed builds to keep a maximum uptime on Power Lash (meaning being proc'ed consistently and immediately after each 20s cooldown); even with trash target recognition.

The skill is supposed to require more than just the 20s cooldown to pace it, hence the Off Balance requirement to proc. This requires not only the status effect but to maintain focus on the same target, all in order to proc. That's fair, it should require all of that. It enables counterplay by allowing a target to use their team members to break proc potential, similarly to how LoS breaks are used; it's the same principal. Not all counterplay in ESO is simply block or dodge. You might not like that, you might find other aspects of counterplay annoying but they're real and they're part of combat strategy and skill floors, which, seemingly have gotten far too low anymore.

The meat & potatoes of the issue is that the skill only feels clunky the way some are trying to use it, but not to everyone and it's seemingly not to subclassed builds. Not all skills are usable in any manner, in fact, most require some particular strategy to use properly. If someone walked up to a group of players and intended to wipe them all out with Power Lash, but died, because the conversion didn't proc and they only received a 4k heal rather than a 14k heal then they deserved to die. That was counter play used against them and wasn't strategic at all.

Whether they call it subclassing or suboptimizing it's essentially the same thing. So long as we don't have barriers or restrictions on suboptimized skills then it's going to continue to be a free for all. The Class passives that were touted look helpful, however, I don't see any of them bringing the kind of raw power that actual skill refreshes are. Because of that I don't know that I'm convinced that Class passives alone are going to be enough to entice anyone that a pure class build is going to be as competitive .. asking someone to give up a subclassed skill like Flame Lash, Merciless, Surprise, Toppling, Shalks, Falcons, etc, only for a couple of Class passives is likely not going to budge the needle very much.

Decimus wrote: »

NxJoeyD wrote: »

Decimus wrote: »

NxJoeyD wrote: »

Decimus wrote: »

NxJoeyD wrote: »

Decimus wrote: »

NxJoeyD wrote: »

Decimus wrote: »

NxJoeyD wrote: »

Decimus wrote: »

OnGodiDoDis wrote: »

Perhaps you are struggling with Power Lash because it was not meant to be used in the way you are intending. It sounds like the play style you are describing is 1vX. It is absolutely possible to proc Power Lash on a group. You are given the tools to do so (Molten Armaments and morphs, and Soul of Flame and morphs). If you are struggling to proc Power Lash it is because you are trying to bypass the required mechanics that would make a target off-balance (you have to heavy attack first or interrupt with Soul of Flame). Given that we already have the tools to reliably proc Power Lash, any adjustments to make it proc easier would have to be accompanied by a huge nerf because it deals so much AoE damage. Use the tools that are given to you. This is a powerful skill and it needs a handicap of this level to keep it powerful, otherwise it will get nerfed.

The problem isn't not having off balance (DW Scribe is your best option for this btw), the problem is the clunkiness of landing that Flame Lash on the target who got off balanced in larger fights due to the game's clunky targeting.

It's easier to make the skill check for Off Balance in an AoE radius rather than fix something that's been broken for 12+ years.

The idea is to not have frustrating experiences in PvP where you do the right thing with the right intent, but RNG decides your Flame Lash hits someone else instead and doesn't turn into Power Lash. Why design something in such rage inducing way?


Fixing that changes nothing for 1v1 or Xv1 balance (nothing wrong with Flame Lash there), but would make the skill less annoying in situations where you're already at a disadvantage rather than have RNG annoyance on top of that.

No other changes are required.

Anyone who’s played as a ranged main will tell you this has been a long standing problem and I don’t think there’s anyone out there who thinks the Devs are capable of fixing that.

The problem is, now that we have subclassing, there’s an inherent (overall) benefit to combat with the skil working this, somewhat quirky limited way.

If the choice is between broad, AoE, Off Balance application which makes Power Lash easier to proc, OR, the clunky target recognition that sees Power Lash affect as only Power Lash, then the best overall scenario for combat (as a whole) is to have the Power Lash not convert.

In PvP, the skill is already too easily synergized with other subclassed skill lines. Since we can’t have different core combat mechanics for PvP & PvE then the last thing we need is for this still to be even more easily applied; as others have mentioned, it would get a massive nerf and that nerf would be justified.

This is not about the power level of the skill, it's about whether it's fun to utilize. If the skill wasn't extremely powerful, I'd consider the DK rework a complete flop.

It, however, is not fun to utilize with all of its current clunkiness, and this is something ZOS should do something about. Making it less clunky in group fights isn't going to make DKs any more powerful in 1v1s or Xv1s, just less targeting RNG reliant in group fights/1vX.

This is something I hope they keep in mind when they rework other classes to also have similarly strong toolkits - they should make classes and their abilities feel not just powerful, but also fun and not frustrating to play.

No developer can justify further breaking a game, mechanically, solely in the name of “fun” for some players.

The changes that you feel would make this skill more fun, would, at the same time, make combat, overall, MUCH less fun for a lot more people.

And again, it’s not whether it makes DKs more powerful, per se, it’s whether it makes the skill more powerful by having a more consistent AoE uptime with less of a skill check.

A skill like Power Lash that delivers the strong combination of high AoE damage paired with high healing needs a pacing element, for balance. I get that trying to target the opponent you set off balance in a bunch can be frustrating, but as others have pointed out, that also might not have been the most optimal use case the Devs intended for that skill.

So to just arbitrarily change the mechanics so that some can find it more fun, without considering the consequence that would have on combat as a whole would be short sighted, and guaranteed, if the Devs did make such a change you can bet on it coming with a numbers nerf.

Interesting.

Why do you think someone's experience would be any less fun if they had RNG chance of getting Power Lashes to death by a DK rather than it being guaranteed that this is the outcome if DK plays correctly & opponents incorrectly? To me, if I was someone dying to that, the mere possibility of it happening would make it an unfun experience. Luckily I know how to play against DKs.

Still, this scenario you deem "less fun" for the opponents already happens if the DK high rolls the Flame Lash on the right target.


Problem is that there is no "skill check" involved, only an RNG check in bigger fights.


Also I don't get the "you were not intended to use this skill in AoE situations" rationale - why make the proc AoE then? It seems specifically designed for those situations, and I bet you that similar clunkiness happens in PvE as well if trying to use Power Lash in AoE trash fights causing less fun and more frustration at the clunkiness of it all.

I don’t know that I agree here. There is absolutely a skill check involved. Being able to use Power Lash in a group setting to deal very high scaling AoE damage to multiple targets, while at the same time, receiving an equal amount of heals isn’t necessarily RNG. The way you’re presenting it is RNG, but you just want to spam a group, and that might not be the best approach.

For something that significantly powerful to occur there should absolutely be a high bar strategy or skill check involved. Meaning that the player could, for example, strategically target an outterlying enemy within the group, focus them, attempt to draw them in a way that provides the separation needed for recognition then set them off balance and apply Power Lash, which will affect the area. Yes, that’s a more intricate setup and it should be!

The idea that someone should be able to more easily receive a guaranteed proc of Power Lash is a bit ridiculous. Sure some might find that fun but it’s not hard at all to see how that would break combat even further.

We have players using Surprise Attack, rapidly, on multiple targets within a group and then utilizing Power Lash, that’s also a viable strategy to more readily proc Power Lash.

Combat is supposed to carry an aspect of strategy, of risk versus reward. Skill procs aren’t supposed to be a given they’re supposed to have an effort element that’s comparable to their output. What you’re asking for would significantly lower the effort aspect for the gain the skill brings, aka, severe imbalance.

There’s ways to use Power Lash against multiple targets, it’s just that the way to do so many not the the preferred method that you want to do, that’s what I mean about use case.

Power Lash is severely abused in PvP with near total impunity. Subclass builds have been able to turn this skill back on DKs and every other class by being able to better Proc Power Lash than DKs often can. I do believe that was a big mistake on the part of the Devs but if the skill is that broadly abused now, how much worse do you think it can get if you remove some of the barrier to the use Proc? It would be bonkers bad.

Skills like Power Lash paired with Fleetstep or Falcons already greatly reduces counterplay because the caster is out healing most incoming damage and has CC immunity, reducing both CC and kite effectiveness. The last thing we need is any mechanical change that reduces counterplay effectiveness anymore by enabling a greater chance at uptime in a spam.

Although you feel this kind of a change might make for more fun, an unintended consequence is that it would negatively affect combat by some degree. Whereas there are other methods one could take to use Power Lash against a group of targets, it’s just a matter of adjusting strategy.

If you have to target someone away from a group in order to actually be reliably able to proc your Power Lash while your acuity and corrosive timers are ticking down, then you're precisely describing how clunky this skill currently is in any group fight situation.

Hitting the wrong target with your bow proc or Crystal Frag is annoying, but does something atleast and often allows you to pivot to a different target. Hitting the wrong target with Flame Lash completely kills your offense and survivability in most situations - you cannot leave something that crucial to targeting RNG.


Also hiding inside a blob of players in order to make it RNG for your opponent whether they can do AoE/self heal or not isn't counterplay, it's just unnecessary annoyance.

The actual counterplay is block/dodge roll and most importantly outrange, all of which work great against Power Lash. There's also fire resistance jewelry glyphs, Dunmer/Breton resistances etc, many indirect counters if DKs/DK subclassers annoy you so.

I didn’t say you had to kite the opponent across Cyrodill, I said focus and aggro them enough to get a clear target recognition. An AoE of 8m for a skill with that much output potential is generous. The setup for that isn’t so much clunky it’s more strategic. You shouldn’t be able to just target one enemy within a ball group for off balance and just spam, that’s far too easy for what one gets with this skill.

Why? I don't see why ball groups should have any additional benefits on top of ones they already have. Besides, you won't kill a ball group by just spamming Power Lash even if you could land the Flame Lash on the right target, you'll also need acuity, 7 divines shadow mundus, probably a gorethief proc ready & atleast 2-3 other DKs doing the same.

NxJoeyD wrote: »

I don’t deny that target recognition in ESO is poor, it very much is, however, the way the mechanics around this skill were built appear to use that as a poor man’s pacing element. A skill like Power Lash shouldn’t be easily spammable or proccable, it SHOULD have some aspect of challenge to it.

It is very easily proccable and literally can never be "spammable" with its 20s internal cooldown. You can track the off balance timer of your opponents with an addon like Off Balance Tracker and the Flame Lash cooldown with Fancy Action Bar+. The only form of clunkiness this ability has that cannot be fixed with addons or playstyle adjustments is the targeting, unless you intentionally turn your AoE nuker from a XvX/1vX machine into a single target dueling build. A playstyle for which Molten Whip works better in most cases anyway.

NxJoeyD wrote: »

I also don’t agree. If you’re putting your proverbial (all of your eggs in one basket) so to speak, over relying on Power Lash then I question your play style or build. Even if you hit the wrong target it’s not as if Flame Lash isn’t doing significant damage output anyway. If you’re in a PvE environment then you should have a healing component in an actual healer that minimizes the survivability of not having the heal from Power Lash. If you’re in PvP then you’re expected to have some aspect of durability in your build anyway. If your choice for durability is the heal factor from Power Lash then, IMO, that’s a poorer choice.

You are doing literally 70% less damage and only hitting one target if utilizing Flame Lash rather than Power Lash and rather than 14k tooltip heal you're getting a 4k tooltip heal. Needless to say this results in a death (even in corrosive if fighting multiple people), not to misplay but to clunkiness and RNG - nothing more unfun and rage inducing than that.

NxJoeyD wrote: »

Counterplay is already reduced. We hear the same suggestions over and over: block & Dodge, to the point that’s it’s become over prioritized. While that is true, block & Dodge are both important, the reality is that the answer to damage mitigation cannot, realistically, just be all block and dodge. Namely because not every player is a stam based build. Further, subclassing. Subclassing has given everyone access to all mechanics which eliminated class limitations. There is no such thing as out of range anymore; between all of the mobility buffs and gap closers than everyone can now access as well as the increase in access to more CC there is no staying out of range, at least not from good players. Power Lash is an 8m AoE, provided the caster has any of a number of mobility buffs + CC immunity they can just run you down, which is exactly what we see nowdays. Those old counterplay methods have changed since subclassing.

“More fun” for some, doesn’t mean better for the game, overall. If we didn’t have subclassing I would agree with your suggestion here, but unfortunately, subclassing isn’t going away. When we look at any skill in ESO now we have to measure its potential use not just in the sense of the root class it belongs to but how it can be used outside of that to reach a full ceiling. Power Lash is already way too easy to proc, even on a group of enemies, it just takes a method different than what you want to do, but it’s already too easy.

Well, what if I told you the ones suffering from this clunkiness the most are pure DKs wanting to play around Corrosive, not the subclassers that tend to be more single target oriented anyway?

Kiting still works very well, I do it every day even in duels in open space with no LOS vs DKs using wings. I think the problem most people have is that they don't build around mobility enough themselves - Streak/BoL or 2 Swift (speed cap while sprinting with Major Expedition) is all you need... or you adapt to being slower and block/dodge the Power Lash window.


Also you won't have to worry about subclassing much longer, we can start calling it suboptimizing instead after Update 50 & Class Mastery Passives.

Flame Lash nor Power Lash are delivering any benefits to ball groups. We've had long standing solutions to ball groups. Bomber builds have been a things for a long time, and yes, some aspects of those builds do get abused in PvP to grab damage and kills even against non-zerg groups but that's a whole other topic.

Power Lash is unique in that it provides a high scale AoE damge output paired with an equal value heal factor. Some of the allocation's you're suggesting are already part of the crit meta, Shadow or Thief munus, acuity, those have been staples for a while now, those are not some high barrier to use; they're already out there. As for Divines, no, one doesn't need that. it's easy enough to scale Power Lash to very high base tool tips without a single divines.

"Bomber builds a solution to ball groups", "no need for divines" - tell me you're playing on PC/NA without telling me you're playing on PC/NA.

You need literally all the damage you can squeeze out of a build to kill things on PC/EU where everyone is running around with crossheals and 30-40k health.

NxJoeyD wrote: »

At that output a player can realistically expect to land high base (non crit) damage, against even well built opponents that's in-line with some of the hardest hitting skills in PvP. It's not difficult to get Power Lash to land upwards of 12k to 15k (after resistances) on a high crit build. Given that we're talking Merciless Resolve levels of scaling, but, instead of being limited to one target Power Lash is an AoE and also rather than providing only 50% healing you're getting 100%, no, you don't need 2 or 3 DKs attacking with Power Lash to slap a group, you only need one.

...and? It's supposed to be stronger than Merciless Resolve and the likes, those have not been reworked yet. Also, you're not killing anyone decent with a 15k Power Lash, you're going to need multiple of those - which tend to get blocked/dodged by anyone playing correctly.

NxJoeyD wrote: »

And to reiterate, you don't even need DKs doing it, NB's can do this, Templars can do this, Wardens can do this, etc. .. One of the big problems is that the skill wasn't confined to DKs and we're not seeing it used in solely DK builds.

You're not getting the extra damage modifier, nor are you getting the other (very) strong DK skill lines - no Corrosive Power Lashes for example. I see no problem with this and even build around Draconic Power or Earthen Heart on many of my non-DK characters because it simply works better on many builds than a skill line that forces a very specific playstyle and drains 3 skill slots.

NxJoeyD wrote: »

When I say easily spammable I don't mean bypassing the 20 second cooldown, I mean too easily repeatable. The skill currently is too easy to proc, even with taking into account the poor target recognition. This is because, again, the skill isn't limited to DKs or pure DK's only. It's not only possible but commonplace for subclassed builds to keep a maximum uptime on Power Lash (meaning being proc'ed consistently and immediately after each 20s cooldown); even with trash target recognition.

The skill is supposed to require more than just the 20s cooldown to pace it, hence the Off Balance requirement to proc. This requires not only the status effect but to maintain focus on the same target, all in order to proc. That's fair, it should require all of that. It enables counterplay by allowing a target to use their team members to break proc potential, similarly to how LoS breaks are used; it's the same principal. Not all counterplay in ESO is simply block or dodge. You might not like that, you might find other aspects of counterplay annoying but they're real and they're part of combat strategy and skill floors, which, seemingly have gotten far too low anymore.

Nope, you'll find it very hard to find players that think hiding behind bad targeting mechanics makes for a good gameplay experience - we've seen this even in duels vs players using blastbones or warden bears etc.

Also, the cooldown is more or less the same as the cooldown of Off Balance (22 seconds), meaning you can keep close to a 100% up time on Power Lash against one individual... if you can actually land the Power Lash on that person.

NxJoeyD wrote: »

The meat & potatoes of the issue is that the skill only feels clunky the way some are trying to use it, but not to everyone and it's seemingly not to subclassed builds. Not all skills are usable in any manner, in fact, most require some particular strategy to use properly. If someone walked up to a group of players and intended to wipe them all out with Power Lash, but died, because the conversion didn't proc and they only received a 4k heal rather than a 14k heal then they deserved to die. That was counter play used against them and wasn't strategic at all.

Someone deserves to die because their attack aimed at the highlighted target that has Off Balance, cursor directly on them, decides to go on the person next to them instead? Nah, I don't think that leads to enjoyable gameplay experiences or consequently good player retention.

NxJoeyD wrote: »

Whether they call it subclassing or suboptimizing it's essentially the same thing. So long as we don't have barriers or restrictions on suboptimized skills then it's going to continue to be a free for all. The Class passives that were touted look helpful, however, I don't see any of them bringing the kind of raw power that actual skill refreshes are. Because of that I don't know that I'm convinced that Class passives alone are going to be enough to entice anyone that a pure class build is going to be as competitive .. asking someone to give up a subclassed skill like Flame Lash, Merciless, Surprise, Toppling, Shalks, Falcons, etc, only for a couple of Class passives is likely not going to budge the needle very much.

Just an example:

Conservation of Energy
Upgrades rank 2 of Blood Magic to work with any ability with a cost, and restores 1000 Magicka and Stamina when it activates.

...you'd rather subclass a skill line than have literally infinite sustain and healing for 10% of your maximum health every ability cast? If you think that, I don't know what to tell you - you do you I suppose.

No actually, I'm on XB / NA. I can't speak for every other platform / server, but the current meta in PvP is crit; over all other builds. That said, experienced players are running 7 pieces of Impen as a MUST, even with Rally; you cannot survive in PvP without some attention to crit, either you're built to deal persistent, at max, crit scaling or you're focused on crit mitigation (which is lacking), or both.

People on XB NA are also running an average of 30k health but when the meta sees crit chance around the 80% mark and at or near max scaling even with Impen, that 30k health gets melted quickly. You don't need Divines now to get crit that high thanks to subclassing. One "can" run Divines but one doesn't "have" to run Divines to get high damage. If a player isn't running Impen then they're exposed to incoming crit. This is one of the fundamental impacts subclassing brought to PvP, an easier access to crit scaling that enabled players to bypass needing Divines to scale. Granted, 7 pieces of Impen truly aren't enough counterplay for the levels of crit that are now achievable but the difference between not running Impen is just too large.

Ok, I would agree that Power Lash is supposed to hit harder than Merciless, but, for that additional power and utility there ALSO comes a much higher barrier to use, that's called balance. If we're going to have a skill that hits harder than one of the most go-to heavy hitting skills in the game then it only makes sense that there's a higher barrier or skill check to it's use, otherwise, it's far too imbalanced.

True, you're not killing anyone with a single 15k Power Lash but a single attack dealing 15k, after mitigation, in PvP is gracious! No skill should be a one shot, Including Power Lash. So to say that nobody is getting killed by a single Power Lash attack is irrelevant, what is relevant is how much damage, per GCD it can deliver, and the answer is a lot.

When we talk about block and doge, yes, that's a thing, that's a counter, but what too many people are doing are simply just saying, as a general rule: "oh you just have to block or dodge". .. I'm sorry, but no, that's become too much of a catch all. Not ever build is a Stam based build. When we talk about counter play in the broad aspect of combat we can't just keep telling people that the the only acceptable counterplay is block or dodge. It's become an over used mechanic to the point that it's unrealistic. If we were to make a list of everything that people "think" block or dodge is the primary answer for that list would be as long as a CVS receipt. Now, that may not be as critical for Stam based builds (of which there are many), but your Mag builds can't accommodate that which is precisely why we have more forms of counterplay besides just blocking or dodging. .. This is precisely why being able to break a Power Lash proc by using the proximity of even one team mate is so crucial here, because it enables a secondary form of counterplay.

Unless we're going to tell everyone that in order to play in PvP you need to be a Stam build then, no, playing "properly" doesn't always mean blocking or dodging. In the exact same way that breaking line of sight is an accepted form of counter play.

It very much is a problem. Subclassed builds are slotting Flame Lash because they can proc the conversion to Power Lash and receive the increase in damage & healing. Most subclassed builds, especially the crit metas, don't care about the 7% bonus damage that base DKs get because those subclassed crit builds are sitting at or near max scaling anyway so why would they need the extra 7%. Subclassed builds don't need Corrosive Power Lashes, they're looking for skills that can scale, simply put. A subclassed crit build could, for example, replace Merciless Resolve with Flame Lash to get a skill that more easily procs and scales higher and delivers both healing + AoE. Those builds who have all been leaning on Merciless aren't looking to take all of the DK skill lines, they're cherry picking. By slotting Flame / Power Lash they can easily crit slap an AoE with a skill that scales as high or higher than Merciless without changing any any other aspect of their build. .. Yes, there are DK aspects that many subclassed builds don't receive, however, they don't need them. This is why I say that at least the Power Lash portion of the skill should have been pure DK only because the skill didn't elevate JUST the DK class, it elevated everyone who chooses to slot it, which was not the point.

In my experience players find good gameplay experience in balanced situations, not ones that reward ease of use at the expense of balance. And this is proven by how many people in PvP in general utilize line of sight breaks every single day in PvP as proper counterplay. Nobody is on these forms suggesting that line of sight be removed to make attacks more "fun". In the exact same way people don't want to be overly "whipped" to death simply because a skill is now easier to proc. That's not fun that's annoying.

Not true, you can keep Power Lash at full uptime on single or multiple targets. It depends on the method one is using. If one is playing in a coordinated team, such as in the IC or Cyrodill, then it's much easier to apply Off Balance to targets because your team can coordinate the application using whatever skill suits the build. ... It's content such as BGs where that becomes tougher because most of those aren't as coordinated and if you have multiple builds trying to slot the same skill then, yes, there will likely be Off Balance cooldowns randomly all over the place since it's impossible to tell, however, to my previous point, that's still not a major issue because a build slotting Flame / Power Lash in place of Merciless is still seeing a benefit as Merciless does nothing until you have stacks whereas Lash can be used at anytime, and even without the proc to Flame Lash it's still dealing descent damage, especially on crit builds, which will still chunk health. Flame Lash might not carry as much damage as Power Lash but on a crit meta that's going to scale to a good amount no matter what.

And, yes, 100% absolutely someone deserves to die if they attempted to attack in the context of the situation you described! I'm sorry but we've all played this game long enough to know about the hit detection. If a person attempts to attack in that manner, knowing how hit recognition is, and still wants to complain that's on them. They should know better than to try and attack like that. And on a side note, which I don't much like the hit detection myself, I also understand it goes to larger combat mechanics such as pets so I understand that as long as pets are a thing in ESO this issue cannot be fully resolved. That means that all of us have to take that into account when we attack targets. .. I'm a ranged DPS Sorc main, I know all too well about wrong targets being hit despite the reticle being on the proper target, any ranged DPS knows this; we're all familiar with it. I deal with this by adjusting my attack strategies accordingly and set myself up for successful attacks. .. In the situation you described I would never attempt to slap Power Lash on a close group like that because I would already know that there's a very high likelihood that Power Lash won't proc, and nor should it.

Most players would rather subclass a skill line because there are A LOT of sustain options in game now. It's not as if these Class passives are bringing something brand new to the game that's never existed. You don't really think players are out here all with little to no sustain strategies, do you? There are players who can and will make use of the Class passives, yes .. however .. what's the opportunity cost to slot those passives? What subclassing offers and brings to the table by way of power creep as well as combination of mechanics is huge. All classes have some degree of limitation in the name of balance. Even with re-works, no class is going to deliver 100% of what is needed for combat and that's by design, to provide some element of balance and cooperation. Subclassing is the one thing which bypasses class limitations so while Class passives are good and beneficial, when you really look at the hardest hitting builds possible in the game right now, they're not going to want to give up their subclassed or suboptimized potential for some passives .. especially if they're already getting some of those benefits (such as sustain) elsewhere in the game.

If subclassing or suboptimizations were reduced, then yes, a lot changes, a whole lot changes. .. Class passives become more beneficial and each pure class becomes more competitive because not every build would be able to access to full degree of skill or mechanic from another class.