Best Of
Re: The Official Vengeance Test Campaign Feedback Thread (Test 3)
Do you have any general feedback?
Yes.
By asking the same questions for every test, it does not appear to me that our feedback has been considered or any new ideas or thoughts have entered into the Vengeance development over the past 6 months. Why haven't we moved on from, "Were you able to successfully get into large-scale battles?" Isn't about time to ask a logical follow-up like, "How might these large scale battles be improved or more fun?"
My main feedback is I think Vengeance has taken a wrong turn. The hype of hopes from Vengeance I is mostly gone. I had to wait in ques of over 200. This isn;t nostalgia. As ESO constantly crashes on my machine and I have to log back in, I probably know what the ques were for Vengeance I better than anyone else on PC/NA. I had to log back in so often I even got the rhythm of how long these 200 ques would take (about 30ish minutes, much faster than Live). I saw names I haven;t seen in years. Even at the end of the test, I still had to wait in que.
Obviously, that is not the case for Vengeance III. It's not because there is a PvE event going on.
Ignoring Core problems
Even for those people who liked Vengeance I, there was almost unanimous agreement with the following point: there were a lot of large scale battles (please stop asking that), but these were always decided by who had the bigger zerg. When everyone can agree with a critique, that screams priority. Do something. This isn't sustainable. Vengeance II came and went. Nothing was done. Vengeance III is here. A couple of meatbags isn;t going to change things (especially in the open field). Nothing will be done for Vengeance IV. When nothing is even being tried to address a problem that everyone agrees with, I certainly have my doubts about the project moving forward and my enthusiasm has waned considerably. Do I have to wait until 2028 before some test will finally try to address this?
Ignoring balance concerns
Another suggestion I would make is if we are going to be given these simplified abilities, there still needs to be some attempt at balancing them so the playtesting isn't so frustrating. I get it. ZOS came out and told us back in Vengeance I that these were just placeholders as the priority was just to stress the servers. I accepted that. I played with the very unbalanced templates. It was fine. For a week. Here we are six months later and, again, it doesn't look like anything has changed. We've already stressed the server. Vengeance I was fine. Now, it's not fine because the development process isn't doing anything to show me these simplified abilities will ever have some semblance of balance. Eventually the nostalgia of being in big battles is going to fade and be replaced by frustration over poor balance.
The low priority ZOS gives to combat
As a follow-up to the previous point, I don;t think enough time, attention, and resources are put in the combat aspect of ESO. Vengeance is a symptom to a larger problem with ESO. All the fancy artwork in a dungeon, how awesome the NPCs are, or how intricate a boss fight is means nothing if the combat is not fun or a group constantly wipes and cannot complete the content This isn't Dungeons and Dragons where a GM can improvise dice rolls or allow us to make a diplomacy check to "defeat" an encounter. It all comes down to combat. How in the world is this such a low priority? Especially in PvP. Cyrodiil never changes. There aren't any special modes like other MMOs have to spice it up. It's always the same. And there isn;t anything to do in Cyrodiil except fight other players. The combat and balance have to be on point for PvP to be fun.
ZOS's fascination with healing and defense
This might sound counterintuitive, but I actually think the elements that were added since Vengeance I has made the gameplay worse. I think it's fair to say in the opinion of most PvPers, ESO Live for years and years has suffered through numerous tank/heal/defense metas. Let's face it, ESO has a decade long track record of favoring defense/healing, and in general being allergic to offense (broken proc sets excluded, of course). Cyrodiil Live only recently somewhat broke free of this because of the busted power that comes from subclassing makes critical hit combos one shot players who make a single mistake. In any event, Vengeance does not have subclassing, so when weapon abilities and other skill lines were added for us to chose, we reverted back to ZOS's default combat philosophy of high defense/healing and low damage. This immediately became obvious to any experienced PvPer in Vengeance II because everyone who knew what they were doing had multiple and powerful heal/defense options (Vigor and Shields) that replaced two mediocre/poor offensive skills. The same heal-stacking that drove us away from Live PvP are now driving us away from Vengeance because some players would not die in Vengeance II, just like they don't die on Live. Also, it is absolutely insane that the damage and healing AoE caps are the same.
Not communicating to us about the future of Vengeance and PvP
My final piece of feedback is that it was a mistake not to be upfront about the future of Vengeance and PvP, Six months ago, we were told this was a test. OK, cool, ZOS is finally doing something serious about improving PvP. Let's go and try out Vengeance. So we all did. 6 months later, it doesn't seem like a test. Or at least, not a test that would improve Live PvP. It has loudly and many times stated on these forums by PvP regulars that they are under the impression that Vengeance will be the future of PvP, to replace Greyhost. By not coming out and addressing these concerns, nothing was done to allay these concerns. Imagine you've been playing this game for ten years, farmed all the gear, spent over a thousand real life dollars in ESO and stuck through laggy Cyrodiil, only to see the rug being pulled from you, replacing Live PVP (the only reason you play ESO and spent all that money) with something that was called a test. I don't blame them for being upset and feeling alienated. Many of those people were there for Vengeance I willing to participate and test. They are mostly gone now. We've gone from, "Cool, this might improve Grey Host" to "Crap, this is going to replace Grey Host."
Conclusion
Speaking for myself, the same reasons that have me log in less and less to Live PvP is making me pretty much skip Vengeance III: heal stacking, not even trying to have a semblance of balance, broken mechanics (there are no unkillable ball groups, but instead we have unstoppable zergs), ZOS's overall lack of interest with the combat in ESO, and a low population. This isn't because there is a PvE event going on. It is because the same company with same core philosophy will wind up producing a different PvP setting with the exact same flaws as its earlier creation.
Yes.
By asking the same questions for every test, it does not appear to me that our feedback has been considered or any new ideas or thoughts have entered into the Vengeance development over the past 6 months. Why haven't we moved on from, "Were you able to successfully get into large-scale battles?" Isn't about time to ask a logical follow-up like, "How might these large scale battles be improved or more fun?"
My main feedback is I think Vengeance has taken a wrong turn. The hype of hopes from Vengeance I is mostly gone. I had to wait in ques of over 200. This isn;t nostalgia. As ESO constantly crashes on my machine and I have to log back in, I probably know what the ques were for Vengeance I better than anyone else on PC/NA. I had to log back in so often I even got the rhythm of how long these 200 ques would take (about 30ish minutes, much faster than Live). I saw names I haven;t seen in years. Even at the end of the test, I still had to wait in que.
Obviously, that is not the case for Vengeance III. It's not because there is a PvE event going on.
Ignoring Core problems
Even for those people who liked Vengeance I, there was almost unanimous agreement with the following point: there were a lot of large scale battles (please stop asking that), but these were always decided by who had the bigger zerg. When everyone can agree with a critique, that screams priority. Do something. This isn't sustainable. Vengeance II came and went. Nothing was done. Vengeance III is here. A couple of meatbags isn;t going to change things (especially in the open field). Nothing will be done for Vengeance IV. When nothing is even being tried to address a problem that everyone agrees with, I certainly have my doubts about the project moving forward and my enthusiasm has waned considerably. Do I have to wait until 2028 before some test will finally try to address this?
Ignoring balance concerns
Another suggestion I would make is if we are going to be given these simplified abilities, there still needs to be some attempt at balancing them so the playtesting isn't so frustrating. I get it. ZOS came out and told us back in Vengeance I that these were just placeholders as the priority was just to stress the servers. I accepted that. I played with the very unbalanced templates. It was fine. For a week. Here we are six months later and, again, it doesn't look like anything has changed. We've already stressed the server. Vengeance I was fine. Now, it's not fine because the development process isn't doing anything to show me these simplified abilities will ever have some semblance of balance. Eventually the nostalgia of being in big battles is going to fade and be replaced by frustration over poor balance.
The low priority ZOS gives to combat
As a follow-up to the previous point, I don;t think enough time, attention, and resources are put in the combat aspect of ESO. Vengeance is a symptom to a larger problem with ESO. All the fancy artwork in a dungeon, how awesome the NPCs are, or how intricate a boss fight is means nothing if the combat is not fun or a group constantly wipes and cannot complete the content This isn't Dungeons and Dragons where a GM can improvise dice rolls or allow us to make a diplomacy check to "defeat" an encounter. It all comes down to combat. How in the world is this such a low priority? Especially in PvP. Cyrodiil never changes. There aren't any special modes like other MMOs have to spice it up. It's always the same. And there isn;t anything to do in Cyrodiil except fight other players. The combat and balance have to be on point for PvP to be fun.
ZOS's fascination with healing and defense
This might sound counterintuitive, but I actually think the elements that were added since Vengeance I has made the gameplay worse. I think it's fair to say in the opinion of most PvPers, ESO Live for years and years has suffered through numerous tank/heal/defense metas. Let's face it, ESO has a decade long track record of favoring defense/healing, and in general being allergic to offense (broken proc sets excluded, of course). Cyrodiil Live only recently somewhat broke free of this because of the busted power that comes from subclassing makes critical hit combos one shot players who make a single mistake. In any event, Vengeance does not have subclassing, so when weapon abilities and other skill lines were added for us to chose, we reverted back to ZOS's default combat philosophy of high defense/healing and low damage. This immediately became obvious to any experienced PvPer in Vengeance II because everyone who knew what they were doing had multiple and powerful heal/defense options (Vigor and Shields) that replaced two mediocre/poor offensive skills. The same heal-stacking that drove us away from Live PvP are now driving us away from Vengeance because some players would not die in Vengeance II, just like they don't die on Live. Also, it is absolutely insane that the damage and healing AoE caps are the same.
I don;t think ZOS understands why damage must outpace healing. Every RPG and fantasy game I have ever played has recognized this essential component. If healing is the same or stronger than damage, then fights never end. Go back to advanced Dungeons and Dragons and look at the 4th level spell cure serious wounds. A Cleric had to touch (i.e., melee range) to heal only one target (with quite a list of ineligible targets: only beings with corporeal bodies, are living, and not have special defenses like only being harmed by silver or magic weapons) for a measly 2-17 hit points. Compare this to the 3rd level magic user spell fireball, which could be used at range, was AoE, had half the casting time, damage everything regardless of corporeal status or unliving, and dealt caster level six sided dice damage (so 5-30 damage at the absolute minimum) to all targets in the AoE. The designers were not scared of damage and had nothing contrived like AoE caps. Dungeons and Dragons has been around for 50 years. The formula works because combat is not fun when the enemy just heals whatever damage you did. It just unnecessarily prolongs the encounter. We have an entire dungeon were supposed to explore. We aren;t supposed to be spending two hours in combat with a few kobolds in the first room. Damage is fun. Hitting like a wet noodle is about as terrible of an RPG/Fantasy experience as there is.
Not communicating to us about the future of Vengeance and PvP
My final piece of feedback is that it was a mistake not to be upfront about the future of Vengeance and PvP, Six months ago, we were told this was a test. OK, cool, ZOS is finally doing something serious about improving PvP. Let's go and try out Vengeance. So we all did. 6 months later, it doesn't seem like a test. Or at least, not a test that would improve Live PvP. It has loudly and many times stated on these forums by PvP regulars that they are under the impression that Vengeance will be the future of PvP, to replace Greyhost. By not coming out and addressing these concerns, nothing was done to allay these concerns. Imagine you've been playing this game for ten years, farmed all the gear, spent over a thousand real life dollars in ESO and stuck through laggy Cyrodiil, only to see the rug being pulled from you, replacing Live PVP (the only reason you play ESO and spent all that money) with something that was called a test. I don't blame them for being upset and feeling alienated. Many of those people were there for Vengeance I willing to participate and test. They are mostly gone now. We've gone from, "Cool, this might improve Grey Host" to "Crap, this is going to replace Grey Host."
Conclusion
Speaking for myself, the same reasons that have me log in less and less to Live PvP is making me pretty much skip Vengeance III: heal stacking, not even trying to have a semblance of balance, broken mechanics (there are no unkillable ball groups, but instead we have unstoppable zergs), ZOS's overall lack of interest with the combat in ESO, and a low population. This isn't because there is a PvE event going on. It is because the same company with same core philosophy will wind up producing a different PvP setting with the exact same flaws as its earlier creation.
Joy_Division
13
Re: What's So Fun About PvP?
A well-fought battle, with your teammates pulling together to successfully defend or take another keep, is quite thrilling. I personally love the siege, though a good melee push is exciting too.
katanagirl1
10
Re: Thank you for finally fixing Frostbite
MashmalloMan wrote: »Still needs to be 20% or above to exceed generic sets like Advancing Yokeda if you ask me. I'm sure a parser can prove any number of generic meta sets can do better, even if you're going all in on frost, which noticeably tanks your DPS in the 1st place.
I'll never understand why their spreadsheets don't account for this. Why do niche, focussed sets perform worse even when you build for them? If you can't use them on a niche setup, then why would a general build use them either? They literally have no place in the game.What's even more confusing is how empty you feel when you attempt to make these sets work. For example, someone may say to themselves "well, I'm okay to lose 10% of my DPS because I get to role play the theme I'm going for by using this set". I know this happens, because I used to make the same sacrifices before I realized it was poointless.
- Ritualist is bad for a pet tamer (Grave Lord + Animal Companions + Daedric Summoning).
- Xanmeer Spellweaver is bad for an Elementalist (Storm Calling + Aedric Flame + Winters Embrace).
- All the "ws damage for x element abilities" sets have been dead for 8+ years.
Frostbite for example has no visual indicator that it does anything different from Advancing Yokeda, so even from a roleplay perspective, they feel virtually the same. Had it been a situation like a Stam Sorc using Storm Fist, then maybe I'd understand... But these sets I've listed are all just stat multipliers, they do nothing for role play beyond making you weaker, so they fail on multiple fronts.
Finally, a set like AY buffs your healing, all of the element focused sets do nothing for that regard unless they happen to have a "heal based on damage done" effect like DK's Flame Claw. All the more reason that these should be more powerful, the visual appeal being your element focussed playstyle hits harder than any other set combo you could use. That, I would understand.
Every word of what you said is true and should be heeded by the powers that be.
But specifically your final thought on the particularly toxic combination of undertuned niche set tuning + zero modicum of any audio/visual additional roleplay flavor that truly feels bad for the player. You're already signing-up for a self-nerf but you get nothing at all in return to from most of these sets to enhance your theme or vibe.
This has been a worrying trend even in recent trial sets, where most are soulless "stat sticks" lacking any sort of animation of flavor. I think that you have to go all the way back to Yandir's to find a stat-based DPS set that has any sort of visual indication that the set is even active. And that was what, 2020?
Flashy animations are FUN. We need more of them rather than less.
Update on Custom PC Drive Installs at Root Level
Hi Everyone. We have discovered an issue impacting custom installations of ESO on the root folder of a drive. If you have actively selected to install ESO at the root level on a drive (eg. C:\ or E:\), not in the default install ZeniMax Online sub-folder as recommended (or any named sub-folder), and attempt to uninstall ESO using "Uninstall", it will uninstall the full contents of the drive. Users who installed using the default settings or who placed ESO in a sub-folder of a drive are not affected by this. This will affect a minor number of users who have actively made that choice when installing ESO and we are working to provide a fix as soon as possible. In the meantime, if you have ESO installed on the root of a drive, you may use the following steps to avoid the root drive issues while we work on an official fix.Currently, we have a few quick fixes for anyone currently with ESO installed on a root drive.
- Manual removal: You can select the Launcher folder, the uninstaller, and the eso game folder if the game is fully installed and press Shift+Delete. This will essentially delete everything as though you ran the uninstaller.
- Move to a subfolder: If you are not planning to uninstall, you can move the Launcher Folder, Uninstaller, and the game folder into a new folder on the drive. Within this newly created folder, select the Launcher folder and uninstaller and press Shift + Delete. This will leave only the ESO game folder left. You can now run the installer and select your new folder created in the first step as your file path. This will not only reinstall the patcher, it will recognize the old ESO game folder and you will not need to re-install the full game.
ZOS_Kevin
19
Re: Is it time for ZOS to give us an official statement of intentions regarding future vengeance plans?
Yes. Absolutely.
We were told numerous times that Vengeance was only a test to make Cyrodiil more performant. They told us not to worry and they weren’t going to take Cyrodiil away.
And now U48 is including “loadouts” and “perks,” all with a custom UI and new icons. No other mode has those. This is obviously no longer a test. It’s crystal clear that this is testing a new game mode. I do think that Grey Host will still exist once permanent Vengeance is released, but I’m fully expecting Icereach and likely Ravenwatch to go away.
But the thing I am livid about is the fact that U48 is dropping with zero balance changes. Subclassing came in like a wrecking ball and now they really are not even going to address balance until March at the earliest?!?! Instead, they’re trying to focus all of their energy on a test mode which is active for all of a week.
The plan has obviously changed. Tell us that officially, don’t play this coy “you’ll see!” game. I fully expect they’re planning U50 in June as a huge free update with “Upgraded Cyrodiil!!” (Vengeance permanently, replacing half of the Campaigns) and “Overland difficulty!!” (A self-nerf slider). I’m betting that they’ll try to sell this as “what the players wanted,” even though that’s not the way people wanted it, and then the lack of new features like a Class will drive even more people away.
I want to be wrong. I hope I am. I desperately want a new Class. But I’m a cynic. And this year has only made me more cynical.
We were told numerous times that Vengeance was only a test to make Cyrodiil more performant. They told us not to worry and they weren’t going to take Cyrodiil away.
And now U48 is including “loadouts” and “perks,” all with a custom UI and new icons. No other mode has those. This is obviously no longer a test. It’s crystal clear that this is testing a new game mode. I do think that Grey Host will still exist once permanent Vengeance is released, but I’m fully expecting Icereach and likely Ravenwatch to go away.
But the thing I am livid about is the fact that U48 is dropping with zero balance changes. Subclassing came in like a wrecking ball and now they really are not even going to address balance until March at the earliest?!?! Instead, they’re trying to focus all of their energy on a test mode which is active for all of a week.
The plan has obviously changed. Tell us that officially, don’t play this coy “you’ll see!” game. I fully expect they’re planning U50 in June as a huge free update with “Upgraded Cyrodiil!!” (Vengeance permanently, replacing half of the Campaigns) and “Overland difficulty!!” (A self-nerf slider). I’m betting that they’ll try to sell this as “what the players wanted,” even though that’s not the way people wanted it, and then the lack of new features like a Class will drive even more people away.
I want to be wrong. I hope I am. I desperately want a new Class. But I’m a cynic. And this year has only made me more cynical.
tomofhyrule
21
Re: Gatekeeping and the Beam Meta
While I do not like subclassing and the predictable outcome it caused, I don't think one poor sport in one raid represents the majority of endgame PVE players
Re: Would you like an event that gave us more transmute crystals as a reward?
Yes if they increase the cap to 10K maybe?
Treeshka
12
Re: Forum PvP is broken, needs balance changes asap (give forum feedback here)
It's funny that some of these are calling for more moderation and the other for less. Personally, I think moderation has gotten a lot better.
Anyway, I think that one thing the forums need is more communication from staff outside of moderation. Give us updates, road map, let us know something has been relayed to the team more often, acknowledge that you've noted a bug, etc. Sometimes they could even join in on the harmless jokes.
Anyway, I think that one thing the forums need is more communication from staff outside of moderation. Give us updates, road map, let us know something has been relayed to the team more often, acknowledge that you've noted a bug, etc. Sometimes they could even join in on the harmless jokes.
Re: Would you like an event that gave us more transmute crystals as a reward?
I like to have the extra keys. Especially since I can buy skill styles with them now.
Extra transmutes would be cool too but I think they need to take the limit off. We should be able to hold an unlimited amount. Without this change an event giving more transmutes probably wouldn't help many people.
Extra transmutes would be cool too but I think they need to take the limit off. We should be able to hold an unlimited amount. Without this change an event giving more transmutes probably wouldn't help many people.
Buffy121
8
Re: Forum PvP is broken, needs balance changes asap (give forum feedback here)
I’m never sure if what I say, even if constructive will get me banned. I think others feel that way too. It certainly doesn’t help participation when there’s heavy handed moderation.
Stamicka
13