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PVP Mass Exodus: Give them a reason to return
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xpolilla✭✭✭DISCLAIMER: I am mostly a PVEr, but I dabble on PvP. Therefore, my opinion is based in my little PvP experience plus the major PvE.
I get that new games are a new shiny for our minds and many people with the means will try them out, and whether they will come back to ESO is an unknown quantity. But I also think this thread goes a little beyond of how many ESO players may be trying out a newly released game.
I have played ESO for a little over 3 years. And I love the IDEA behind this game. I fell in love with the idea of playing the game however I want to play it. But the more I do, the more I realize that this idea stays in the abstract, and the reality is that the bugs and hiccups prevent it to be a reality.
I understand we are all humans and thus, imperfect beings, so I am not asking for impossible perfection. However, knowing (and experiencing) that some skills and ultimates have been bugged for YEARS (both on PvE and PvP, although it is more noticeable in the latter), it appears to be NO INTEREST by developers to fix them... ever. For example, the LEAD Game Developer declared, during the latest Bethesda stream, that they would rather have people developing new content than the same people making a better experience during Maelstrom Arena. This means that ESO devs will prioritize new versus old content. What does this ultimately mean for us? That ZoS is more interested in attracting new people than taking care of the people who already payed for the game and, very likely, have been paying for a Plus sub. This is NOT new for any company that has subscribers. It's a company and they ultimately want more money.
Nevertheless, taking all this together, I completely understand the need to try a new game that, so far, does not have the same romantic idea of ESO about playing-however-you-want, BUT the newly-released game's idea actually works and *already is* a reality. In short, romanticism versus practicality: that is what will make a player trying the new game to come back to ESO (romanticism) versus not doing so (practicality). It would be great that ZoS finally get the romantic idea into a full practical reality, but the more I play, the more I see this not happening. In PvE, but particularly in PvP.
The more ZoS continues to cater to new customers, the more new players they will get, and the more existing players will migrate to new and shiny things. They may come back to play new content for a month, and then move away again for another shiny. It's human nature. After all, the shiny for ESO lasted for at about 5 years or so, which is a lot... and the more bugs and little love to the existing player base ZoS brings about, the less shiny it appears.
(Edited for grammar)Edited by xpolilla on 6 October 2021 17:257 -
Nagastani✭✭✭✭My friends list is now suddenly half inactive with people last being logged into the game 4+ days ago. They’ve all gone to a new game and if that game successfully keeps their attention, there is little to no chance half my friends are coming back to play ESO.
ZOS... you need to give people a reason to play your game. There have been no announcements and no indication through years of content releases that brand new PVP content is going to be released. Without anything new to play, discover, or learn, then people have absolutely no incentive to come back to your game.
Are you going to release some new PVP content soon? If not, say goodbye forever to a large chunk to your long time player base.
I can't possibly agree more with everything you said here.
Now, personally on a lighter note, I think this is a very necessary break that alot of us needed from PvP. In New World for example, I don't PvP and am not really looking forward to doing so. That's a mistake I made with ESO is taking a side and jumping into the shark tank too early.
New World is so beautiful, there are so many things to learn and do without even thinking about PvP. I would rather login and just chill for right now with the wind in my hair and shores at my feet rather than getting my duff shot off right away.
But yeah, ESO def needs to just get everyone together, have a seat around a kitchen table and brainstorm on how to give some love to PvP. Improve the textures, update the map, the servers, there's so many things they could do.
I do plan to return to ESO eventually but for now a break is great.Edited by Nagastani on 6 October 2021 18:030 -
Kidgangster101✭✭✭✭✭
✭New World is geared towards PVP players, it's a different game to ESO so no surprise PVP players are trying it out. That being said, I'm PVE and I am also trying out NW. I'm not leaving ESO but I wanted a second game to play to add some diversity to my gaming experience and I'm quite enjoying it. I don't think one game can be 'all' to everyone, most that try end up failing.
It's too early yet to see how New World will fare - as others have said 'it's new' so too early to panic but even if people do end up not coming back - that is expected given ESO's age.
The reason why eso looses a lot of people that pvp though, is simply what op said. This game was originally end game pvp.not much pve content. They dropped ic and nothing new except bg for pvp.
So a game that was designed for pvp turned into mainly only pve forces people to quit weather there's a game to play or not. Legit I stopped for ff14 because I figured if I'm gonna play pve stuff might as well go with the game that has more balances, less lag, harder content.4 -
Folkb✭✭✭✭✭Completely redo cyrodiil to make it an open zone with pvp toggle zone. Give some sort of bonus to enabling pvp. Essentially make it a new world type zone.
Make the town and cities larger, remove some of those copy pasted keeps.Edited by Folkb on 6 October 2021 19:033 -
neferpitou73✭✭✭✭✭
✭JJOtterBear wrote: »TequilaFire wrote: »I didn't buy ESO to have it be exactly like an Elder Scrolls game.
I would play one of the ES solo games if I wanted that.
well then, go do that? Stop trying to turn ESO into a PvP hellscape. There are plenty of other games out there that would cater to your needs. this is why people feel so sour towards PvP'ers. [snip]
Umm, I think his point was ESO started as a PvP hellscape and got turned into a PvE hellscape, so being told to find other games is hilarious.
[snip]
[edited for flaming & to remove quote]Edited by ZOS_Icy on 1 November 2021 18:439 -
_adhyffbjjjf12✭✭✭✭✭Kidgangster101 wrote: »New World is geared towards PVP players, it's a different game to ESO so no surprise PVP players are trying it out. That being said, I'm PVE and I am also trying out NW. I'm not leaving ESO but I wanted a second game to play to add some diversity to my gaming experience and I'm quite enjoying it. I don't think one game can be 'all' to everyone, most that try end up failing.
It's too early yet to see how New World will fare - as others have said 'it's new' so too early to panic but even if people do end up not coming back - that is expected given ESO's age.
The reason why eso looses a lot of people that pvp though, is simply what op said. This game was originally end game pvp.not much pve content. They dropped ic and nothing new except bg for pvp.
So a game that was designed for pvp turned into mainly only pve forces people to quit weather there's a game to play or not. Legit I stopped for ff14 because I figured if I'm gonna play pve stuff might as well go with the game that has more balances, less lag, harder content.
The vast majority of ESO was PVE at the start i.e great PVE, best in market story telling, massive world, great crafting, guilds etc) The USP was Elder Scrolls universe online AND PVP in cyrodill.1 -
neferpitou73✭✭✭✭✭
✭The main issue PvPers and endgame players in general are facing right now is this
"At the present moment does ESO feel like a game that is going to have any degree of longevity or does it feel like a game in its last stages of life?"
For many people, especially PvPers who have put up with crappy performance for years on end, the answer appears to be the latter. If that's the case oh well there's nothing anyone can do. But if the devs plan to have any degree of longevity, they need to communicate that to their players.
Right now it feels like ZOS is trying to attract casual players who are going to quest around for a bit, buy some houses, cosmetics and leave within a few months, without worrying about player retention. While I'm sure that's a sound business model, it leaves a bad test in many people's mouths because it doesn't feel like ZOS respects their current customers. Having a product that doesn't fully work for many of the main parts doesn't exactly help that appearance either.
Edited by neferpitou73 on 6 October 2021 19:455 -
Aldoss✭✭✭✭✭
✭alanmatillab16_ESO wrote: »
Just out of interest what makes you think PVPers are a large chunk of the player base? The loudest certainly.
What makes you think they aren't?
I say that to demonstrate that all we have are feelings. No one here can say with any amount of certainty who is the larger of the niche end extremes of the ESO experience (e.g. end game PvE vs PvP).
Clearly we can all agree that casuals are the largest demographic in this game. Most people in my trade guild never step foot in even normal trials or BGs/Cyro/IC
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Aldoss✭✭✭✭✭
✭
What do they do if they don't do end game contents or PvP? Everyone would run out of quests at some point...
They play the guild trader economy game. They farm mats and do writs. They collect motifs. They buy houses and furnish said houses (SO. MANY. HOUSES). The casual game is an "ignorance is bliss" miracle.
The weekly sales record in my guild is >80Mil by just ONE player...
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kargen27✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Kidgangster101 wrote: »New World is geared towards PVP players, it's a different game to ESO so no surprise PVP players are trying it out. That being said, I'm PVE and I am also trying out NW. I'm not leaving ESO but I wanted a second game to play to add some diversity to my gaming experience and I'm quite enjoying it. I don't think one game can be 'all' to everyone, most that try end up failing.
It's too early yet to see how New World will fare - as others have said 'it's new' so too early to panic but even if people do end up not coming back - that is expected given ESO's age.
The reason why eso looses a lot of people that pvp though, is simply what op said. This game was originally end game pvp.not much pve content. They dropped ic and nothing new except bg for pvp.
So a game that was designed for pvp turned into mainly only pve forces people to quit weather there's a game to play or not. Legit I stopped for ff14 because I figured if I'm gonna play pve stuff might as well go with the game that has more balances, less lag, harder content.
Except it wasn't designed for PvP. It was designed with a PvP element. You can find prerelease streams online. Most are not PvP related. You can find prerelease trailers online. They feature PvP and PvE.
Also PvP doesn't need new zones. New zones spreads the population out to thin. Sure shake things up some in the zones we have. That would be good. What we really need... the only thing we need is for PvP to work again. If the lag was gone and we could have big epic fights again all would be good.and then the parrot said, "must be the water mines green too."3 -
myskyrim26✭✭✭✭✭
✭My friends list is now suddenly half inactive with people last being logged into the game 4+ days ago. They’ve all gone to a new game and if that game successfully keeps their attention, there is little to no chance half my friends are coming back to play ESO.
ZOS... you need to give people a reason to play your game. There have been no announcements and no indication through years of content releases that brand new PVP content is going to be released. Without anything new to play, discover, or learn, then people have absolutely no incentive to come back to your game.
Are you going to release some new PVP content soon? If not, say goodbye forever to a large chunk to your long time player base.
I left many times for a shooter MMO just to have some rest - I always knew I'm leaving just for a 1-3 months and will be back because I do love ESO. No need to give someone ANY reason to return. If they love ESO, they will return. If not, let them play a better game for their taste.1 -
Kikazaru✭✭✭✭✭
PC NA Primetime as of now....
RIP ESO PVP
2014 - 2021
"Insert epitaph here"Mizaru
“Let your plans be dark and impenetrable as night, and when you move, fall like a thunderbolt.”6 -
Kwoung✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭
PC NA Primetime as of now....
RIP ESO PVP
2014 - 2021
"Insert epitaph here"
Looks like EP is getting bored of having no one to play with... first time I haven't seen them pop locked in a while. Not to worry though, my group is probably playing tomorrow night, so the DC population will increase by 10 fold and jump to 2 bars!
And from what I have seen lately, it literally only takes slightly over one group to make it go to 2 bars. It seems like:
0-14 = 1 bar
14-50 = 2 bars
51- 100? = 3 bars
(Just conjecture)Edited by Kwoung on 7 October 2021 00:325 -
master_vanargand✭✭✭✭✭
✭This is an ESO crisis.
If ignored, the disease will gradually get worse and it will be too late.
ZoS didn't give people what they wanted.
Please listen to our request more.10 -
Amottica✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Eso was launched as a PVP centric MMO.
Since 2014 many of the original devs left the team.
Now ESO is more PVE and fashion MMO game.
The original concept disappeared.
I agree that PvP is at the center of the game since that is the location of Cyrodiil.
I would disagree that it was PvP centric. 90% or more of the map was PvE at launch. Most of the energy developing the game, outside of combat, was PvE quest writing requires significant work. A large portion of the cost was voice acting and Zenimax went after some big names for that as well. It would seem odd that most of the cost and most of the work was PvE related but the game is a PvP centric game. If ESO was every a PvP centric game we would have seen PvP everywhere instead of one limited area.
The three-banner war was a big part of advertising the game but that war is woven into the PvE stories so it is not a PvP centric theme.
If it actually worked though, ESO would be the hands down best PVP game on the market. I find that "most" PVE players, of which I was one until I tried Cyrodiil, have huge misconceptions about PVP here, based on some experience they had in some other game in the past. The combat system, goals, size, sieging, lack of loss for dying, all come together to make this the best PVP since DAOC, which was the only other game I enjoyed PVPing in. ESO is very similar to DAOC in this respect, except a lot bigger and better... if it only worked.
If it actually worked is a little general. If speaking of the performance of the game itself I suggest there are still issues such as balance. The balance between classes but also the immense diversity of builds that work in PvP.
Cyrodiil is very similar to DAOC because it is very much based on it. It is what you get when the person hired to run the company happened to have been the Executive Producer for DOAC when Trials of Atlantis and Catacombs were released. Firor was with DOAC for several years. However, many things in the ESO architecture vary greatly from ESO which is obvious in both performance and more. Some of which you are talking about with performance.1 -
Marillea✭✭✭✭JJOtterBear wrote: »
well then, go do that? Stop trying to turn ESO into a PvP hellscape. There are plenty of other games out there that would cater to your needs. this is why people feel so sour towards PvP'ers. [snip]
So, what do we call the PvE players asking ZOS to remove PvP, and turn Cyro/IC into PvE zones?
But yes, I guess asking for working PvP as paying customers makes them "entitled."
[edited to remove quote]Edited by ZOS_Icy on 1 November 2021 18:437 -
myskyrim26✭✭✭✭✭
✭master_vanargand wrote: »This is an ESO crisis.
If ignored, the disease will gradually get worse and it will be too late.
ZoS didn't give people what they wanted.
Please listen to our request more.
ESO is a PVE game now. More and more players joing every day. PVP crisis? Maybe. As a pure PVE player, I don't care, at all.Edited by myskyrim26 on 7 October 2021 05:073 -
Amottica✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭I just played a few hours of NW and I think Amazon already gave players a reason to return from there. It is still farmsville (for materials) and the NPCs are still predictably easy as long as one dodges and blocks. The stories are still the same dry stories they were in alpha and beta.
Oh, and the PvP I saw was not much and kind of funny to watch one person run from another. It seems it will be mostly company vs company and even then it does not seem to be much unless that changed from the betas I saw.2 -
AdamLAD✭✭✭✭✭Biggest problems that ESO has is performance and lackluster balance problems. Not a single Zenimax employee is actually good at eso from what I have seen. Especially in PvP. However if you look at other games such as smite, there own CEO is a God tier player, so he knows exactly what needs to change and what doesn't. I think assembling the best out of the community would solve alot of balance issues aswell as saving zenimax time actually doing it themselves. But please fix performance 1st before you do anything more to the game zenimax. Its been years now. Even if you shut the game down for months because you needed to. Just DO IT. The community is so tired of things not working.12
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LarsS✭✭✭✭✭Pvp on PC/EU is still very much alive. on primetime both Gray Host and Ravenwatch are locked or close to that. It seems that even though NW have had some effect in EU to, its not large. As far as I can judge the last update had a larger negative impact on the pvp population on the PC/EU server.
I do agree though that ZOS should give PVP more thought.GM for The Daggerfall Authority EU PC2 -
Kwoung✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Eso was launched as a PVP centric MMO.
Since 2014 many of the original devs left the team.
Now ESO is more PVE and fashion MMO game.
The original concept disappeared.
I agree that PvP is at the center of the game since that is the location of Cyrodiil.
I would disagree that it was PvP centric. 90% or more of the map was PvE at launch. Most of the energy developing the game, outside of combat, was PvE quest writing requires significant work. A large portion of the cost was voice acting and Zenimax went after some big names for that as well. It would seem odd that most of the cost and most of the work was PvE related but the game is a PvP centric game. If ESO was every a PvP centric game we would have seen PvP everywhere instead of one limited area.
The three-banner war was a big part of advertising the game but that war is woven into the PvE stories so it is not a PvP centric theme.
If it actually worked though, ESO would be the hands down best PVP game on the market. I find that "most" PVE players, of which I was one until I tried Cyrodiil, have huge misconceptions about PVP here, based on some experience they had in some other game in the past. The combat system, goals, size, sieging, lack of loss for dying, all come together to make this the best PVP since DAOC, which was the only other game I enjoyed PVPing in. ESO is very similar to DAOC in this respect, except a lot bigger and better... if it only worked.
If it actually worked is a little general. If speaking of the performance of the game itself I suggest there are still issues such as balance. The balance between classes but also the immense diversity of builds that work in PvP.
Cyrodiil is very similar to DAOC because it is very much based on it. It is what you get when the person hired to run the company happened to have been the Executive Producer for DOAC when Trials of Atlantis and Catacombs were released. Firor was with DOAC for several years. However, many things in the ESO architecture vary greatly from ESO which is obvious in both performance and more. Some of which you are talking about with performance.
Yes, by "works", I was very general, I was lumping lag, disconnects, slow bug, macro slices(dumb name for it), etc.. all into one simple bucket, basically all the broken server side stuff. As for class balance, well that's pretty hard to even judge before they fix everything else, as all the other issues completely affect it. How can you tell how powerful a particular combo could be in X circumstance, if you can never execute it properly due to performance issues and just have to use something that will actually work a better percentage of the time? On the few lag free occasions I was playing (they are incredibly rare), it was like a whole different game.2 -
Nogawd✭✭✭✭✭I have played since beta.
Nothing was like that first year of PvP. The Q's to get in would sometimes reach over a hundred. There were handfuls and handfuls of guilds on every alliance. Ever since, however, it has dropped. The Q's got smaller. The guilds vanished. Sure, new guilds would pop up, but never last too long or be how it was in that first year.
Blame this, blame that, there is a lot of blame to go around, but it's always back to the lag. No one wants to play in it. It's been a problem since day one and most have just come to the conclusion that it will never be fixed. It is what it is.
It's a business, and ZOS seems to have found their bread and butter and they will milk it for everything they can get. I understand it, but it's just frustrating that we never got those huge large scale battles that was promoted before the game even hit beta.
I remember the hype and the claims. Huge battles with hundreds of players. Siege everywhere. Bows all over the top of the keeps. Players able to climb the walls. Battles that would seemingly last hours.
Instead that first year in huge fights, all you would get on your screen was insane choppiness and rubber banding. You would be smashing buttons and just hoping to see your side still alive after the server caught up.
ZOS has tried some things in hopes to try and patch it up, but these tests and cheap shots in the dark just never work. I get that they want to try and patch it before committing to upgrading server hardware, but it's beyond that time now. They have killed the entire PvP community. This is the worst state this part of the game has ever been in. Yes, it's basically at an unplayable point right now with the server performance and the lack of PvP players.
I have no idea what is going to go on from here.
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Mrtoobyy✭✭✭✭BalticBlues wrote: »
We always had the lag, not much has changed here.DUTCH_REAPER wrote: »I don’t think it was proc sets. It’s the lag, it’s skillz not firing off and disconnects.
But lately, PvP is going down the drain:
1st, PvP people got fed up about GETTING BOMBED left and right.
2nd, PvP people got fed up not knowing if GEAR BONUSES are WORKING OR NOT.
3rd and final nail, PvP people are fed up about GETTING DARK CONVERGED left and right.
Dark Convergence, Hrothgar, Plaguebreaker etc. have become a PLAGUE in PVP.
PvP got so bad with it, some of the very best ESO players said "RIP PVP".
"The Ultimate Desaster when it comes to balancing"
starting at 6:00, about Hrothgar at 7:10, result at 8:40:
"Sets like Hrothgar have no counter [...] all skill is eliminated from the game"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xSXfVPel38I
The new PvP Proc sets are worse than the Ball Groups they should prevent.
ZOS decided to fight the pest with cholera.
But now we have to handle both, the pest AND the cholera.
Moreover, Ball Groups got even worse using the cholera themselves...
I really wonder how ZOS wants to clean up this PvP Proc Plague recently created.
Well you pretty much said it there. I can't find A better way to put it.
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Jazraena✭✭✭✭✭
✭Pvp on PC/EU is still very much alive. on primetime both Gray Host and Ravenwatch are locked or close to that. It seems that even though NW have had some effect in EU to, its not large. As far as I can judge the last update had a larger negative impact on the pvp population on the PC/EU server.
I do agree though that ZOS should give PVP more thought.
This can't be overstated IMHO. Even past the various hyperbolic statements about the forum, I'm getting an increasing feeling of PvP being very different depending on server.1 -
dinokstrunz✭✭✭✭✭
✭myskyrim26 wrote: »master_vanargand wrote: »This is an ESO crisis.
If ignored, the disease will gradually get worse and it will be too late.
ZoS didn't give people what they wanted.
Please listen to our request more.
ESO is a PVE game now. More and more players joing every day. PVP crisis? Maybe. As a pure PVE player, I don't care, at all.
1. That's not considered to be a good talking point for an MMO
2. That also means more and more players are leaving, ZoS has never been good at holding new players down in ESO. People come and they leave after several weeks or a month or so.
3. PvP is on direct route to very low populations, yesterday no campaign reached pop lock even during prime time.
4. You don't care, that tells me you don't understand much of this games current plights.15
