PVP Mass Exodus: Give them a reason to return

LyraEmber

Magio_ wrote: »

LyraEmber wrote: »

AuraStorm43 wrote: »

Kwoung wrote: »

AuraStorm43 wrote: »

LyraEmber wrote: »

AuraStorm43 wrote: »

Magio_ wrote: »

AuraStorm43 wrote: »

I did have a look, he cites no names and has no actual backing outside of the aoe cap

The AOE cap is something ZOS fought tooth and nail on but he lacks evidence to support his server related claims outside of pure conjecture

Why does Cyrodiil suddenly work way better during Midyear Mayhem then starts to play like hot garbage again as soon as it ends?

Yes, it's a lot of anecdata, but that's all players have considering ZOS usually has the transparency of a brick wall. So please stop asking people for data you know they can't provide unless they break in to ZOS's headquarters.

This whole PROVIDE CONCRETE PROOF or anything you say is automatically false is really lame. These are not random theories. It's the community arriving to a conclusion after years of cumulative experience. The theories try to explain what we're already experiencing. You're trying to brush the conclusions under the rug because we have no concrete data to provide as players. Even if there was concrete data, using it to try and convince you would be a extremely low priority lol.

So again, putting it at the end of my post so you don't conveniently forget to respond to this part. Please try to explain how Cyrodiil lag improves for MYM but then it all returns after it ends.

Ik the servers improve during midyear its well documented, i just want actual concrete proof instead of anecdotal evidence

[snip]
[edited for discussing disciplinary actions]

All of the available evidence has been gathered and presented. The video seems to put the puzzle pieces together in the only way they can fit. The only missing pieces to the puzzle are either an admission that this is what happened, or presenting an alternative, of which there have been zero presented.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V-Cgg9EqLPQ

So, if even after all the evidence has been presented, its still not enough for you unless the company admits fault publicly, then it will never be enough for you, because companies dont openly admit fault in public, its just not good PR.

For me, what happened to the persons account for making the video, tells me that it warrants taking a look at, and he details the message he received from them in the comments section. It looks pretty bad.

“Evidence” thats purely anecdotal, no one knows whats happening with ZOS’s server purchases

Are you referring to the ones they said they would be replacing, because they are so old it would be cheaper to replace them than pay the yearly maintenance contract? That was this years promise, although like last years "Year of performance improvements", I have yet to see it happen. What is happening with their purchases, is they are apparently not making any, and it wouldn't surprise me at all to learn they keep repurposing Cyrodiil servers to host the new zones they keep pushing out, instead of buying new servers for even that purpose.

I’m referring to that video makes claims that ZOS continually downgraded servers, sure there’s evidence based on how much worse over time performance had gotten in some cases but it varies from patch to patch

Dragonhold for example on PS4 NA Cyrodil was completely unplayable with frequent crashing, usually multiple times per hour, it got so bad ZOS had to emergency patch it

To me thats not just a server issue they had to mess up during the coding process

Bro, you should have stopped at "sure theres evidence based on how much worse over time performance had gotten"

He also keeps asking fellow players for ZOS financial/spending reports LMAO.

Just reject the evidence of your eyes. The servers just magically work better during MYM and immediately worsen after it ends. We'll never know what happens without financial reports.

Its baffling to me. If I ever commit a crime, I really hope I get these kind of people on my jury, who can be presented with mountains of evidence and still say "i dunno, he didnt admit to it, so probably not guilty."

OtarTheMad

I don't know if this helps at all but found this video. Seems they know and are working on it, good to know.

https://youtube.com/watch?v=K9vDyzghM4I

phbell

Well - almost every PvP'er that left Cyrodill for New World are players i didn't care for anyway which makes New World my new favorite game.

I like it here, but if ZOS puts some attention into expanding Cyrodiil I won't complain

NagualV

OtarTheMad wrote: »

I don't know if this helps at all but found this video. Seems they know and are working on it, good to know.

https://youtube.com/watch?v=K9vDyzghM4I

How long should a player wait when they say "it takes time".......

Cmon guys, what else are they gonna say....what exists now is what you're gonna have....

Stridig

Dojohoda wrote: »

I've spent thousands of hours in Cyrodiil and I used to enjoy it. I've been in Cyrodiil occasionally this year. It's not much fun anymore with low-pops and continuing lag.

This sums it up for me as well. 75% of my time in game was in Cyrodiil. The population over the last year has been a fraction of what it was a few years ago. And the lag is as bad as ever. It's a bummer.

OtarTheMad

NagualV wrote: »

OtarTheMad wrote: »

I don't know if this helps at all but found this video. Seems they know and are working on it, good to know.

https://youtube.com/watch?v=K9vDyzghM4I

How long should a player wait when they say "it takes time".......

Cmon guys, what else are they gonna say....what exists now is what you're gonna have....

I get the frustration, I am a PvPer as well and have been for a long time. I also believe that the testing, which is great to finally start to try and find out what is going wrong, came really late. They should have been on PvP a long time ago but for whatever reason, they weren't. I do hope more testing is done if needed, sounds like maybe they have an idea of what is wrong and how to fix it. I wish it didn't take this long though. I can't say for sure if any of this is just lip service, I think it'd be dumb for it to be that because if an idiot like me can understand that happy PvPers will trickle into the PvE side of the game and play more then the devs can as well.

My theory and I don't work for ZOS nor have any idea how it works but I have thought for a while that may be the business side of things is holding ZOS back, the "suits". I don't know. All I know is my experience with other companies and they couldn't just do things, they always had to shoot it up the ladder to see if the changes fit into a budget they had... if they did not then they were put on the back burner or they had to do a workaround to appease things... like a band-aid just to hold it together. Now I don't know if this is the case but either way PvP issues were ignored for a long time.

Lip service at this point would just be a catastrophe and I don't think they'd be that dumb. I don't think PvP will ever be lag-free but will be in a situation where it's fun again and any lag is just kind of "whatever".

LyraEmber

OtarTheMad wrote: »

NagualV wrote: »

OtarTheMad wrote: »

I don't know if this helps at all but found this video. Seems they know and are working on it, good to know.

https://youtube.com/watch?v=K9vDyzghM4I

How long should a player wait when they say "it takes time".......

Cmon guys, what else are they gonna say....what exists now is what you're gonna have....

I get the frustration, I am a PvPer as well and have been for a long time. I also believe that the testing, which is great to finally start to try and find out what is going wrong, came really late. They should have been on PvP a long time ago but for whatever reason, they weren't. I do hope more testing is done if needed, sounds like maybe they have an idea of what is wrong and how to fix it. I wish it didn't take this long though. I can't say for sure if any of this is just lip service, I think it'd be dumb for it to be that because if an idiot like me can understand that happy PvPers will trickle into the PvE side of the game and play more then the devs can as well.

My theory and I don't work for ZOS nor have any idea how it works but I have thought for a while that may be the business side of things is holding ZOS back, the "suits". I don't know. All I know is my experience with other companies and they couldn't just do things, they always had to shoot it up the ladder to see if the changes fit into a budget they had... if they did not then they were put on the back burner or they had to do a workaround to appease things... like a band-aid just to hold it together. Now I don't know if this is the case but either way PvP issues were ignored for a long time.

Lip service at this point would just be a catastrophe and I don't think they'd be that dumb. I don't think PvP will ever be lag-free but will be in a situation where it's fun again and any lag is just kind of "whatever".

Cyrodiils server population has been dropped to less than a quarter of its original size, and the lag wasnt even as bad as it is now back then. There are plenty of videos of this. The fact that the server gets "better" during midyear mayhem events, and worse after, suggests that they are moving data around tiers of a datacenter, which cost different amounts of money. This suggests that they are leaving the servers are this lower tier for the rest of the year, which would explain why 6+ years and numerous tests have yielded zero results, and further suggests that these tests were done to "buy time" since they clearly know whats up with their datacenter.

I have played ESO for primarily pvp only since the beta. I have seen dozens of videos on the subject, and this one puts all the puzzle pieces together in the most realistic way I can see to fit all of the data points. Its also the only video I have ever seen them notice, watch, and take action to remove. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V-Cgg9EqLPQ

Kwoung

They are hoping to find the good & cheap answer... getting good performance from cheap hardware. Because the only other option is, to go back to using more/better hardware. They have been on this quest for quite a while, most of the life of this game apparently. So it is rather confusing as to why they don't just accept the fact that what they are looking for doesn't exist, no amount of code is going to fix a hardware issue, and just pony up and deliver what we all know to be possible (because they themselves prove it a couple times a year). Or simply shut it down, call it a day and deal with all that egg they will end up with on their faces.

I guess quite possibly, they may have said something at some point in the past that makes it impossible to just shut down PVP, due to legal ramifications and liability, but to just string players along for years with false hope and put us through all that dumb testing, is also pretty bad.

OtarTheMad

LyraEmber wrote: »

OtarTheMad wrote: »

I don't know if this helps at all but found this video. Seems they know and are working on it, good to know.

https://youtube.com/watch?v=K9vDyzghM4I

This video is unfortunately exactly what the title say

OtarTheMad wrote: »

NagualV wrote: »

OtarTheMad wrote: »

I don't know if this helps at all but found this video. Seems they know and are working on it, good to know.

https://youtube.com/watch?v=K9vDyzghM4I

How long should a player wait when they say "it takes time".......

Cmon guys, what else are they gonna say....what exists now is what you're gonna have....

I get the frustration, I am a PvPer as well and have been for a long time. I also believe that the testing, which is great to finally start to try and find out what is going wrong, came really late. They should have been on PvP a long time ago but for whatever reason, they weren't. I do hope more testing is done if needed, sounds like maybe they have an idea of what is wrong and how to fix it. I wish it didn't take this long though. I can't say for sure if any of this is just lip service, I think it'd be dumb for it to be that because if an idiot like me can understand that happy PvPers will trickle into the PvE side of the game and play more then the devs can as well.

My theory and I don't work for ZOS nor have any idea how it works but I have thought for a while that may be the business side of things is holding ZOS back, the "suits". I don't know. All I know is my experience with other companies and they couldn't just do things, they always had to shoot it up the ladder to see if the changes fit into a budget they had... if they did not then they were put on the back burner or they had to do a workaround to appease things... like a band-aid just to hold it together. Now I don't know if this is the case but either way PvP issues were ignored for a long time.

Lip service at this point would just be a catastrophe and I don't think they'd be that dumb. I don't think PvP will ever be lag-free but will be in a situation where it's fun again and any lag is just kind of "whatever".

Cyrodiils server population has been dropped to less than a quarter of its original size, and the lag wasnt even as bad as it is now back then. There are plenty of videos of this. The fact that the server gets "better" during midyear mayhem events, and worse after, suggests that they are moving data around tiers of a datacenter, which cost different amounts of money. This suggests that they are leaving the servers are this lower tier for the rest of the year, which would explain why 6+ years and numerous tests have yielded zero results, and further suggests that these tests were done to "buy time" since they clearly know whats up with their datacenter.

I know all of this, like I said I have been PvPing for a long time. Heck the first MYM that was fairly garbage was this past one, but other ones usually had servers performing better. PvP lag lead me to play in lowbie campaign basically all of 2019 because for some odd reason no matter how populated it got it never lagged. I bet that is still the case but lowbie is a wasteland I am hearing.

As for the whole datacenter and money thing, kind of mentioned that with the whole "suits" part of my post but maybe that was the point you were making. There is a difference between knowing what's going on and being able to do something about it. I have no idea what goes on behind those doors so I only base my opinion on past experiences of dealing with the corporate side of anything and in those cases if something wasn't in the "budget" regardless of how needed or how pushed... it just wasn't going to happen.

IronWooshu

With Microsofts never ending funds and owning Zenimax now, they should have no problems affording servers that could increase the scale of players and have it run as good if not better than MYM.

I still wish that EU and NA from each of their respective system (ie. PS4 EU and NA) merge Cyro together, this way factions will always have crews running at night for each continent. Names shouldn't be a problem (at least on console) because you can't have duplicate PSN or XBox account names. Only conflicting problem would be character names made up at character creation and they could just make it so only your PSN/XBox Gamertag would show in Cyro.

LyraEmber

IronWooshu wrote: »

With Microsofts never ending funds and owning Zenimax now, they should have no problems affording servers that could increase the scale of players and have it run as good if not better than MYM.

I still wish that EU and NA from each of their respective system (ie. PS4 EU and NA) merge Cyro together, this way factions will always have crews running at night for each continent. Names shouldn't be a problem (at least on console) because you can't have duplicate PSN or XBox account names. Only conflicting problem would be character names made up at character creation and they could just make it so only your PSN/XBox Gamertag would show in Cyro.

There is zero excuse for the server situation, and to be fair, ZOS had the money to fix it before Microsoft got involved.

There is still zero explanation as to why the ping gets better during midyear mayhem, and worse afterwards, other than moving the data to more expensive machines for two weeks a year. Even the people trying to argue against the server issue, have zero argument for that fact, and resort to "uhhh idk why pings get better for those two weeks, cant be the servers tho."

Until a better explanation occurs, Occams Razor will continue to dictate that its the servers.

xeNNNNN

LyraEmber wrote: »

IronWooshu wrote: »

With Microsofts never ending funds and owning Zenimax now, they should have no problems affording servers that could increase the scale of players and have it run as good if not better than MYM.

I still wish that EU and NA from each of their respective system (ie. PS4 EU and NA) merge Cyro together, this way factions will always have crews running at night for each continent. Names shouldn't be a problem (at least on console) because you can't have duplicate PSN or XBox account names. Only conflicting problem would be character names made up at character creation and they could just make it so only your PSN/XBox Gamertag would show in Cyro.

There is zero excuse for the server situation, and to be fair, ZOS had the money to fix it before Microsoft got involved.

There is still zero explanation as to why the ping gets better during midyear mayhem, and worse afterwards, other than moving the data to more expensive machines for two weeks a year. Even the people trying to argue against the server issue, have zero argument for that fact, and resort to "uhhh idk why pings get better for those two weeks, cant be the servers tho."

Until a better explanation occurs, Occams Razor will continue to dictate that its the servers.

They absolutely did have the money, especially considering what microsoft were willing to spend in order to acquire them. $7.5b

Though relatively speaking a low number, this mean't that Zenimax media (ZoS's boss) essentially had enough funds to do whatever was needed to improve performance in one of their products but just didn't.

LyraEmber

xeNNNNN wrote: »

LyraEmber wrote: »

IronWooshu wrote: »

With Microsofts never ending funds and owning Zenimax now, they should have no problems affording servers that could increase the scale of players and have it run as good if not better than MYM.

I still wish that EU and NA from each of their respective system (ie. PS4 EU and NA) merge Cyro together, this way factions will always have crews running at night for each continent. Names shouldn't be a problem (at least on console) because you can't have duplicate PSN or XBox account names. Only conflicting problem would be character names made up at character creation and they could just make it so only your PSN/XBox Gamertag would show in Cyro.

There is zero excuse for the server situation, and to be fair, ZOS had the money to fix it before Microsoft got involved.

There is still zero explanation as to why the ping gets better during midyear mayhem, and worse afterwards, other than moving the data to more expensive machines for two weeks a year. Even the people trying to argue against the server issue, have zero argument for that fact, and resort to "uhhh idk why pings get better for those two weeks, cant be the servers tho."

Until a better explanation occurs, Occams Razor will continue to dictate that its the servers.

They absolutely did have the money, especially considering what microsoft were willing to spend in order to acquire them. $7.5b

Though relatively speaking a low number, this mean't that Zenimax media (ZoS's boss) essentially had enough funds to do whatever was needed to improve performance in one of their products but just didn't.

Very true. I have found that this video details each of the decisions the bosses at ZOS made in a way that puts all the puzzle pieces together, and it looks really bad for the suits at the top. Its also the only video I have ever seen them notice, review, and take action to remove, including the person who made it. Thats enough for me to think "hmm, maybe theres something to this video," and I was not disappointed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V-Cgg9EqLPQ

Anomander72

I left ESO on NW launch day. It was sad, because while not a day one player, I have played ESO since the beginning of 2016. Long time PVP players like myself (and to be clear, I do a fair share of PVE as well) have all identified the same problems, so much of this is not new, but in my opinion it is accurate. Performance has been a problem since early days, despite what Rich Lambert might say. The stuck in combat bug is not a new problem, yet it still exists. Classes have never been perfectly balanced, but there have been times when they were close. Even when they were not, each class spent some time at the top of the food chain but that is mostly no longer the case.

I believe, contrary to what many might say, that ZOS developers do care and want to fix PVP. I feel that they also work under profit margin directives from above, which dictate the cheapest possible solution. The probable actual fix is more and better servers, but this is not the cheapest fix, and hence not an option. I believe some content creators have insightfully mentioned that ZOS might not be willing to invest heavily in a 7-year old game that has an unknown, but possibly imminent expiry date. The learning curve in PVP is, let's face it, astronomical. When the game works, the skill level that can be obtained is quite high and comes only from putting in thousands of hours. There is simply no solution to make PVP as the game is currently constructed a level playing field that will bring in new PVP players without being discouraged, though ZOS has tried with various and disastrous proc sets. PVE appears to be healthy, but dedicated PVP players definitely give ZOS money as well. Almost every top PVP player I know subscribes simply for the craft bag. Mythic items like Malacath, practically necessitated paying for the expansions before they were nerfed.

What transpired was an accumulation of offenses, that for me reached a climax with the introduction of DC, Hrothgar, and Plaguebreak. I understand they have since been nerfed, but part of the problem with ESO PVP is a disconnect between developers and players. Several long-time players reported during the PTS that DC was overpowered and a game breaker, but no one in ZOS listened, quite simply because as far as PVP was concerned, they were out of ideas. Unfortunately, it is now too late for ESO PVP. My guild of at least 32 people and many other guilds that we have fought against have left, because we now know that performance, balance, and Cyrodiil PVP in general will never be fixed. If it was fixable, and the solution was inexpensive, it would have already been done. I agree that when ESO combat in PVP is at its top form, it is separate from almost all other MMOs and glorious. The reality though, is that it is almost never at top form these days and waiting for ZOS to fix it is a pipe dream.