Let's compromise on the new PvP skill line progression

code65536 · February 2016

As you can see from the chart above, the Assault/Support skill line progression has become substantially cheaper--a 90% reduction on the total AP needed to reach Assault/Support 10--on the PTS, compared to what it is on Live.

While I agree that the Assault/Support requirements on Live are a bit too much, this swings the pendulum too far in the opposite direction, and judging from the comments on the PTS forum, this is a concern shared by many others. Furthermore, on the PTS, the new skill ranks no longer coincide neatly with the progression of AvA ranks.

So what I propose is a compromise, where instead of progressing in Assault/Support every 3 AvA ranks, we progress every 2 AvA ranks.

This still reduces the total AP cost of Vigor by over half and still represents a very substantial 2/3 reduction in total AP needed to reach max Assault/Support.
Reaching the max Assault/Support under the proposal would require advancing to an officer rank (Lieutenant) and would retain some of the feeling of achievement. The 90% reduction in total AP cost was just far too cheapening of something that should have at least some sense of progression and achievement attached to it.
Keeping the Assault/Support skill ranks aligned with the AvA ranks would make the AvA rank-ups feel more rewarding. This is especially true if the skill ranks are aligned with the AvA ranks that grant a new insignia and title, as this proposal would do.
It's also a much easier progression to communicate to players and to remember: you get more skills unlocked each time you earn a new insignia and title. The new progression on the PTS, where some skill ranks come right before an AvA rank (e.g., A/S 9 coming just a few thousand shy of AvA 10) or right after an AvA rank (e.g., A/S 5 coming just 2K after getting AvA 6) makes absolutely no sense to me. Did you guys just use a random number generator for the new progression?
Keeping the skill progression aligned with the AvA progression would mean that each new skill unlock will coincide with the earning of an AvA skill point. You know, for convenience.

Edit/Update: It's been suggested that the passives as the ones that can potentially cause balance problems, and the active skills are the ones that PvEers want the most. So how about this as a further compromise: Use the skill rank progression as I propose here, but move the active skills down a skill rank. So, for example, Vigor would be Assault 4, and Magicka Det would be Assault 6. This would make the active skills are cheaply available as they are now on the PTS, but the powerful passives such as Combat Frenzy 2 would require a Lieutenant rank.

@ZOS_BrianWheeler @ZOS_RichLambert Please consider this. Even though I PvE more than I PvP and have lamented the rate of the PvP skill progression, the progression on the PTS is just far too cheap to have any meaning. And the loss of alignment with the AvA ranks is just... messy.

(Thanks to @Paulington and @Enodoc for the ranks' AP requirements.)

paul_j · February 2016

I haven't touched pvp since I started playing but what's the problem with unlocking skills for everyone? I was planning on pvping only to get barrier and test it out when I heal in group dungeons as a sorc. I'm glad it takes much less time for these skills. Is it a balance issue for pvp? Or is it because people are complaining they took an x amount of time to get these skills?

Alucardo · February 2016

paul_j wrote: »

I haven't touched pvp since I started playing but what's the problem with unlocking skills for everyone? I was planning on pvping only to get barrier and test it out when I heal in group dungeons as a sorc. I'm glad it takes much less time for these skills. Is it a balance issue for pvp? Or is it because people are complaining they took an x amount of time to get these skills?

With these new numbers combined with the increase of AP you earn from kills and repairs, they are basically handing out PVP ranks like candy. This is a problem, because it's supposed to be earned, not just given to you on a silver platter.
Alliance War is now the biggest joke skill line in ESO, when it used to actually mean something (if this goes live, of course).

Taleof2Cities · February 2016

Agree with the OP ... the skill line should be easier to progress but not by 90%.

code65536 · February 2016

paul_j wrote: »

I haven't touched pvp since I started playing but what's the problem with unlocking skills for everyone? I was planning on pvping only to get barrier and test it out when I heal in group dungeons as a sorc. I'm glad it takes much less time for these skills. Is it a balance issue for pvp? Or is it because people are complaining they took an x amount of time to get these skills?

It's a matter of balancing the need to feel that something is earned and achieved against making skills available to a larger population of players. There should be a sense of progression--of things being earned. For example, you don't get Hardened Ward on your sorc when you start a fresh character--you have to earn it, and it comes very late in the sorc's skill tree.

That said, I agree that too many of the PvP skills are too inaccessible for people who mainly PvE, and the prospect of doing that progression again and again on all my alts is very daunting. But the progression on the PTS is just way too cheap, IMHO. We're talking about chopping off 80% of the total AP cost needed to get Barrier! Imagine being able to play with Impulse and Hardened Ward on a sorc while you're still in the starter zone. It swings too far in the other direction.

paul_j · February 2016

So it's only an issue as something to be "earned". Nothing about this is a balance issue?

Dalsinthus · February 2016

So am I reading this correctly, that they've only changed the AP for skill rank increases? In other words, the AP for Alliance Rank increases remains the same?

code65536 · February 2016

paul_j wrote: »

So it's only an issue as something to be "earned". Nothing about this is a balance issue?

Yes, but that's also over-simplifying things. You wouldn't want all your class skills handed out to you without earning them, would you? You wouldn't want to be able to use Meteor right after joining the Mage's Guild, would you? Again, it's about finding the right balance between the sense of achievement and accessibility of skills. This balance doesn't exist on Live. But it doesn't exist on the PTS, either.

Xendyn · February 2016

paul_j wrote: »

So it's only an issue as something to be "earned". Nothing about this is a balance issue?

No, if you read the OP, it's an issue of they swung it too much and made it sloppy to boot.
Making it easier is one thing.
Making it trivial is something else.

code65536 · February 2016

Dalsinthus wrote: »

So am I reading this correctly, that they've only changed the AP for skill rank increases? In other words, the AP for Alliance Rank increases remains the same?

Yes. When I logged onto the PTS, I was maxed out at Assault/Support 10, but I was still a First Sergeant Grade 1 as before.

paul_j · February 2016

I feel like things like skills should come naturally through leveling and not grinding. Don't we have loot and equipment to show off as an achievement? I just think that skills whether it's the Mage skill line, undaunted, or any of the pvp skill lines should be available. Titles and the grind for equipment should be the achievement

code65536 · February 2016

paul_j wrote: »

I feel like things like skills should come naturally through leveling and not grinding. Don't we have loot and equipment to show off as an achievement? I just think that skills whether it's the Mage skill line, undaunted, or any of the pvp skill lines should be available. Titles and the grind for equipment should be the achievement

Let's not talk "achievement", then; let's talk "progression". And the PvP skills are a "grind" only if you treat them as a grind. You gain skill progression by earning AP, and just as XP, AP can either be earned by "grinding" or "naturally", by just playing PvP. I reached AvA rank 15 and never "grinded" for it--I just went to Cyrodiil and played PvP casually every now and then for fun (some weeks I don't go in at all, some weeks I head in there just once, some weeks I spent quite a bit of time there).

Alucardo · February 2016

Remember the days when you finally hit Veteran and unlocked Vigor, you'd go text all your friends, call your mom on the phone and run down the street naked screaming? Those days are gone, le sigh.

Swannkyy · February 2016

I agree they reduced it a bit too much, on one of my characters i went from three quarters of the way through assault/support 5 straight to maxed out.

BEZDNA · February 2016

I like the new change. As a person who has 8 characters, it's a nightmare to get at list proxy on all of them, not talking about reaching AvA rank 10. What i also like that with new changes many players will have access to proxy, which i hope will help to deal with zergs, on the other hand lost of ppl will have battle-ress passive in pvp and it is already kind of issue when 1 templar can ress 20 ppl inside a keep in 1 min.

In general i really like these change. Howeawer i may agree and it seems overkill and your Proposed Compramis seems very attractive and relevant - 616k till proxy and 2,4kk till batle-ress 2 and combat frenzy 2.

Where shud i vote for these suggestion?

Ghostbane · February 2016

If the Alliance Skill progression needs to be decreased, I think @code65536 has presented a sensible compromise. A 65% reduction is more than fair.

Shaggygaming · February 2016

No one should be forced to play in a lag infested zone where sometimes abilities do not even work. I think the solution to make both parties happy is to leave the passives alone at their current AP per rank and have the abilities unlock sooner. PVE player can have their abilities and PVP players can have their increased ultimate gain and faster rez times.

paul_j · February 2016

code65536 wrote: »

paul_j wrote: »

I feel like things like skills should come naturally through leveling and not grinding. Don't we have loot and equipment to show off as an achievement? I just think that skills whether it's the Mage skill line, undaunted, or any of the pvp skill lines should be available. Titles and the grind for equipment should be the achievement

Let's not talk "achievement", then, let's talk "progression". And the PvP skills are a grind only if you treat them as a grind. You gain skill progression by earning AP, and just as XP, AP can either be earned by "grinding" or "naturally", by just playing PvP. I reached AvA rank 15 and never "grinded" for it--I just went to Cyrodiil and played PvP casually every now and then (not often--some weeks I don't go in at all, some weeks I head in there just once).

I agree with you with the fact I think by just playing pvp so it doesn't feel like a grind and unlocking skills is awesome. I just think skills are essential to the game so I'm just happy now I can casually go into pvp now and unlock skills at a faster pace so instead of thinking about 'how can I get the most ap' entering cyrodiil. Maybe increase how much ap needed to rank up after you unlock all the skills would be a good compromise?

cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO · February 2016

I think that it's good now in the pts, no need to change it.

gw2only1b14_ESO · February 2016

Alucardo wrote: »

paul_j wrote: »

I haven't touched pvp since I started playing but what's the problem with unlocking skills for everyone? I was planning on pvping only to get barrier and test it out when I heal in group dungeons as a sorc. I'm glad it takes much less time for these skills. Is it a balance issue for pvp? Or is it because people are complaining they took an x amount of time to get these skills?

With these new numbers combined with the increase of AP you earn from kills and repairs, they are basically handing out PVP ranks like candy. This is a problem, because it's supposed to be earned, not just given to you on a silver platter.
Alliance War is now the biggest joke skill line in ESO, when it used to actually mean something (if this goes live, of course).

Dude truly the game is becoming vanilla candy plain and just left there for all. There is no challenge ,exploration , game immersion anymore . its just handed to you.....last dlc suxed this on looks suxage as well

Casdha · February 2016

It seems only fair, if folks can zip through PvE content to gain level and skills, others should be able to zip through PvP to gain skills.

I have no problem with it.

gw2only1b14_ESO · February 2016

code65536 wrote: »

paul_j wrote: »

So it's only an issue as something to be "earned". Nothing about this is a balance issue?

Yes, but that's also over-simplifying things. You wouldn't want all your class skills handed out to you without earning them, would you? You wouldn't want to be able to use Meteor right after joining the Mage's Guild, would you? Again, it's about finding the right balance between the sense of achievement and accessibility of skills. This balance doesn't exist on Live. But it doesn't exist on the PTS, either.

Agree but they seem to be...as they seemed to do with the provisioning end of the game as well . Im starting to think the financial's of the game taking hit somewhere

gw2only1b14_ESO · February 2016

paul_j wrote: »

I feel like things like skills should come naturally through leveling and not grinding. Don't we have loot and equipment to show off as an achievement? I just think that skills whether it's the Mage skill line, undaunted, or any of the pvp skill lines should be available. Titles and the grind for equipment should be the achievement

Ehhh well lets see PVP is one big instance based Dungeon of sorts and instead of 1 man or a 4 man group going into pve and going for some random gear drop etc. PVP has the reward of besting other players in combat (boss mob) and earning rewards(ap/gain) which grant them there reward they seek( skill line advancment).

So for pvpers this is a reward there achievement "there title" I pvped to earn this...

Look at it that way and you'll see why

baratron · February 2016

Okay. See, I was really excited about them speeding up the rate of progression through PvP ranks because it feels like I've been Rank 4 forever. But 90% faster? Seriously? That's just insane.

You're right, it takes away any sense of accomplishment. This proposal is much better, and I hope they look again at the numbers.

paul_j · February 2016

gw2only1b14_ESO wrote: »

paul_j wrote: »

I feel like things like skills should come naturally through leveling and not grinding. Don't we have loot and equipment to show off as an achievement? I just think that skills whether it's the Mage skill line, undaunted, or any of the pvp skill lines should be available. Titles and the grind for equipment should be the achievement

Ehhh well lets see PVP is one big instance based Dungeon of sorts and instead of 1 man or a 4 man group going into pve and going for some random gear drop etc. PVP has the reward of besting other players in combat (boss mob) and earning rewards(ap/gain) which grant them there reward they seek( skill line advancment).

So for pvpers this is a reward there achievement "there title" I pvped to earn this...

Look at it that way and you'll see why

How many ranks are there? What level/rank do you need to be to unlock all the skills? So after you unlock skills are you at the final rank? Slow down rank gain but let us filthy pvp casuals use the skills

code65536 · February 2016

paul_j wrote: »

gw2only1b14_ESO wrote: »

paul_j wrote: »

I feel like things like skills should come naturally through leveling and not grinding. Don't we have loot and equipment to show off as an achievement? I just think that skills whether it's the Mage skill line, undaunted, or any of the pvp skill lines should be available. Titles and the grind for equipment should be the achievement

Ehhh well lets see PVP is one big instance based Dungeon of sorts and instead of 1 man or a 4 man group going into pve and going for some random gear drop etc. PVP has the reward of besting other players in combat (boss mob) and earning rewards(ap/gain) which grant them there reward they seek( skill line advancment).

So for pvpers this is a reward there achievement "there title" I pvped to earn this...

Look at it that way and you'll see why

How many ranks are there? What level/rank do you need to be to unlock all the skills? So after you unlock skills are you at the final rank? Slow down rank gain but let us filthy pvp casuals use the skills

Take a look at the chart. There are 10 skill ranks. Magicka det is the final active skill, available at skill rank 7. I don't mind increasing the costs for ranks 8-10, but nevertheless, the current discounts on the PTS on ranks 5-7 are pretty crazy. Keep in mind that Vigor had already been moved from skill rank 10 (AvA rank 24) down to skill rank 5 (AvA rank 9) just a few months ago, and now it's being moved down again, to the equivalent of AvA rank 6. From 6.9M to 90K. With a messy, unaligned progression to boot.

BabeestorGor · February 2016

Alucardo wrote: »

Remember the days when you finally hit Veteran and unlocked Vigor, you'd go text all your friends, call your mom on the phone and run down the street naked screaming? Those days are gone, le sigh.

Screenshots (especially the running down the street naked bit) or it didn't happen

Metafae · February 2016

I have eight characters at v16, and I've been wanting to get these pvp skills on all of them, but you're not going to see me in pvp 9 hours a day every day.

These might seem trivial to you, but to someone like me, it's a nice change. On one character it'll be laughably easy to get the skills, but do that again 7 more times, and you'll see it's at least some kind of grind, but at least now it's something I'm willing to work for.

LokoMatic · February 2016

I'll make a compromise.

Give a flying mount to PVP rank's 40+

Give a tier 3 - 5 assault passive for high PVP rank's.

You have to give us something to play for rather than just a symbol and a title, if this is the case.

Tyrion87 · February 2016

Nope, I'm satisfied with the upcoming changes and thank you for them ZOS.
I've been playing PvP from time to time (20%PvP/80%PvE) for a few months and now I'm ONLY veteran grade 1 (is it the 9th rank?). I play max 2-3h a day so I'm not a habitual player. Thus it seems that levelling in PvP via AVA ranks is way too slow. After those couple of months I should be able to use the mag detonation skill now which unfortunately I still cannot do. If somebody claims that progression within the Undaunted skill line should also be speeded up, please... I can tell you only that levelling Undaunted is waaay much faster and less time-consuming than the Alliance War skills.

ThaJollabyb14_ESO · February 2016

Metafae wrote: »

I have eight characters at v16, and I've been wanting to get these pvp skills on all of them, but you're not going to see me in pvp 9 hours a day every day.

These might seem trivial to you, but to someone like me, it's a nice change. On one character it'll be laughably easy to get the skills, but do that again 7 more times, and you'll see it's at least some kind of grind, but at least now it's something I'm willing to work for.

This. I love that it's easier to get. it gives earlier access to Vigor and Caltrops which are great options for PVE stamina builds. I have seen the comparison of PvP alliance skill trees to the PvE Undaunted but you can obtain the active skills in the undaunted by completing all the 4 man dungeons + a pledge or two. hardly the same time investment between the two.

This will also grant a flow of new skill points for each alliance rank so that players can get the new passives in the thieves guild.