Let's compromise on the new PvP skill line progression

Lava_Croft

These AP requirements are downright ridiculous, but if it means all the Skyrim players will leave Cyrodiil much faster after they megazerged their way to Proximity Detonation and/or Vigor, I cannot really complain.

At least we get awesomely worthwhile Skill Points and amazing Titles for our PvP effort! Yay!

Zinaroth

Alucardo wrote: »

paul_j wrote: »

I haven't touched pvp since I started playing but what's the problem with unlocking skills for everyone? I was planning on pvping only to get barrier and test it out when I heal in group dungeons as a sorc. I'm glad it takes much less time for these skills. Is it a balance issue for pvp? Or is it because people are complaining they took an x amount of time to get these skills?

With these new numbers combined with the increase of AP you earn from kills and repairs, they are basically handing out PVP ranks like candy. This is a problem, because it's supposed to be earned, not just given to you on a silver platter.
Alliance War is now the biggest joke skill line in ESO, when it used to actually mean something (if this goes live, of course).

Yeah kind of like selling Undaunted pieces at a vendor for a candy.

code65536

ThaJollabyb14_ESO wrote: »

This will also grant a flow of new skill points for each alliance rank so that players can get the new passives in the thieves guild.

No, it will not. The AP requirements for each Alliance Rank is still the same, and if you were rank 5 before, you'll still be rank 5 after.

The change that they made was to the AP requirements for the Assault/Support skill ranks so that they're much, much lower than before and so that they no longer coincide with gains in Alliance Ranks.

So now you'll have more skills and passives to spend things on. With no additional Alliance Rank skill points to spend with.

Draxys

Holy crap, I can go from volunteer to having combat frenzy 2 in 2-3 days. If someone is very good at solo farming or gets emp on a new character they'll get it in one night. That is ludicrously short.

LokoMatic

Draxys wrote: »

Holy crap, I can go from volunteer to having combat frenzy 2 in 2-3 days. If someone is very good at solo farming or gets emp on a new character they'll get it in one night. That is ludicrously short.

Yet everyone else has had to bust their ass for the past what... 2 years?

LadyNalcarya

Alucardo wrote: »

paul_j wrote: »

I haven't touched pvp since I started playing but what's the problem with unlocking skills for everyone? I was planning on pvping only to get barrier and test it out when I heal in group dungeons as a sorc. I'm glad it takes much less time for these skills. Is it a balance issue for pvp? Or is it because people are complaining they took an x amount of time to get these skills?

With these new numbers combined with the increase of AP you earn from kills and repairs, they are basically handing out PVP ranks like candy. This is a problem, because it's supposed to be earned, not just given to you on a silver platter.
Alliance War is now the biggest joke skill line in ESO, when it used to actually mean something (if this goes live, of course).

Yeah, undaunted ranks are also supposed to be earned, but it doesnt require that much time investments.
And in my opinion, being able to get alliance ranks quickly will be good for Cyrodiil, as it will eliminate pve zergs that just want to get caltrops/detonation.
Also, when everyone can get the abilities easily, ap farmers wont have an advantage of instant res and coordinated proximity spam, as everyone will have it.

LadyNalcarya

Draxys wrote: »

Holy crap, I can go from volunteer to having combat frenzy 2 in 2-3 days. If someone is very good at solo farming or gets emp on a new character they'll get it in one night. That is ludicrously short.

Pushing for emp exists for a very long time already.

bosmern_ESO

paul_j wrote: »

I haven't touched pvp since I started playing but what's the problem with unlocking skills for everyone? I was planning on pvping only to get barrier and test it out when I heal in group dungeons as a sorc. I'm glad it takes much less time for these skills. Is it a balance issue for pvp? Or is it because people are complaining they took an x amount of time to get these skills?

Because whenever PvErs complain that they have to PvP to get PvP benefits ZoS rushes and changes stuff without even taking into consideration of what the changes might cause.

If a PvPer wants to get something thats PvE required (PvE sets mainly) they have to go PvE and grind dungeons until they can get what they want. They need to put more effort into getting gear than a PvEr who now wants PvP stuff.

cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO

bosmern_ESO wrote: »

paul_j wrote: »

I haven't touched pvp since I started playing but what's the problem with unlocking skills for everyone? I was planning on pvping only to get barrier and test it out when I heal in group dungeons as a sorc. I'm glad it takes much less time for these skills. Is it a balance issue for pvp? Or is it because people are complaining they took an x amount of time to get these skills?

Because whenever PvErs complain that they have to PvP to get PvP benefits ZoS rushes and changes stuff without even taking into consideration of what the changes might cause.

If a PvPer wants to get something thats PvE required (PvE sets mainly) they have to go PvE and grind dungeons until they can get what they want. They need to put more effort into getting gear than a PvEr who now wants PvP stuff.

lol, you can just go buy it in the store there for some pocket change.....

TheValkyn

Alucardo wrote: »

paul_j wrote: »

I haven't touched pvp since I started playing but what's the problem with unlocking skills for everyone? I was planning on pvping only to get barrier and test it out when I heal in group dungeons as a sorc. I'm glad it takes much less time for these skills. Is it a balance issue for pvp? Or is it because people are complaining they took an x amount of time to get these skills?

With these new numbers combined with the increase of AP you earn from kills and repairs, they are basically handing out PVP ranks like candy. This is a problem, because it's supposed to be earned, not just given to you on a silver platter.
Alliance War is now the biggest joke skill line in ESO, when it used to actually mean something (if this goes live, of course).

They are handing out A/S ranks. Not actual PvP ranks though, right? If so then stop farming lowbies who don't have the set up to compete (at no fault of their own) and start pvp'ing.

AlnilamE

paul_j wrote: »

So it's only an issue as something to be "earned". Nothing about this is a balance issue?

Actually, it is also a balance issue. Those are pretty powerful skills and if you unlock them too early in your PvP career (and my DK unlocked War Horn after 3 evenings in PvP, for example, so some of the skills are fairly easy to get), you will become too reliant on them and run the risk of not learning proper tactics. And that would reduce PvP to Magicka Det zerg trains more than it is now, I think.

So if they want to make it easier to achieve, that's fine, but a 90% reduction in AP required is definitely overdoing it.

LadyNalcarya

AlnilamE wrote: »

paul_j wrote: »

So it's only an issue as something to be "earned". Nothing about this is a balance issue?

Actually, it is also a balance issue. Those are pretty powerful skills and if you unlock them too early in your PvP career (and my DK unlocked War Horn after 3 evenings in PvP, for example, so some of the skills are fairly easy to get), you will become too reliant on them and run the risk of not learning proper tactics. And that would reduce PvP to Magicka Det zerg trains more than it is now, I think.

So if they want to make it easier to achieve, that's fine, but a 90% reduction in AP required is definitely overdoing it.

Meteor is easily obtaianble and is going to be op if they wont revert it. Might of the guild and undaunted mettle passives are also strong, and so is Dawnbreaker...

Refuse2GrowUp

code65536 wrote: »

I think that is wayyyyy too much of an AP reduction!! They are seriously making the game wayyyy too casual friendly. Doesn't anyone respect and appreciate a little bit of grind and working towards something? Sure, I can appreciate that they are reducing the amount of AP needed, but this is extreme. Combine this with the fact that you will now get twice as much AP from player kills, and you can get Skill Rank 10 in a week!

acw37162

Why?

What is the cost to any player who already has the skill already unlocked?

none

What is the cost to any player to who want to compete in PVP?

Less time being gimped

What is the cost to any player who only want to unlock certain skills and not PVP any more then required?

Less time being in a place he/she does not want to be in the first place

This argument comes down to those who have, feel their accomplishment is somehow cheapened, which is just a very open form of elitism .

Let those who want in come in and compete, let those who want out, out and move on it affects you not.

cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO

Refuse2GrowUp wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

I think that is wayyyyy too much of an AP reduction!! They are seriously making the game wayyyy too casual friendly. Doesn't anyone respect and appreciate a little bit of grind and working towards something? Sure, I can appreciate that they are reducing the amount of AP needed, but this is extreme. Combine this with the fact that you will now get twice as much AP from player kills, and you can get Skill Rank 10 in a week!

Sounds about right, about every other skill line can be max rank in a week or two, why shouldn't alliance war skill ranks? I couldn't care less about the alliance war ranks themselves, I'd be fine to be a recruit or whatever the lowest rank is for PvP, but having 2 skill lines take months upon months while the rest take a week or two to max out seems very unbalanced to me.

Skinzz

Great now were gonna have low ranked pvp players balling through cyrodill with proxi det spam and lagging out the servers.

LadyNalcarya

xskinzcity wrote: »

Great now were gonna have low ranked pvp players balling through cyrodill with proxi det spam and lagging out the servers.

Great, we will only have pvp players in Cyrodiil, not some pve casuals stacking and lagging everything

DisgracefulMind

acw37162 wrote: »

Why?

What is the cost to any player who already has the skill already unlocked?

none

What is the cost to any player to who want to compete in PVP?

Less time being gimped

What is the cost to any player who only want to unlock certain skills and not PVP any more then required?

Less time being in a place he/she does not want to be in the first place

This argument comes down to those who have, feel their accomplishment is somehow cheapened, which is just a very open form of elitism .

Let those who want in come in and compete, let those who want out, out and move on it affects you not.

I have two characters that I do not PvP on that have full Combat Frenzy and Battle Rez passives, and I can assure you not everyone who doesn't want this change is being an elitist, I'm legitimately concerned as to what this is going to do to Cyrodiil. Giving those passives out to every rank 11 player is a bit much. Imagine the Kag's resses that will be going off non-stop (even worse than now), ulti spam will be easier, and so on. Those passives should legitimately be worked for to strengthen yourself and your group. 670k AP is not working for those. There is a reason those passives should be unlocked behind some sort of grind. They're strong as hell.

I really, really hope ZoS looks and this thread and gives us the compromise on this. The reduction is far too extreme.

Moonshadow66

Metafae wrote: »

I have eight characters at v16, and I've been wanting to get these pvp skills on all of them, but you're not going to see me in pvp 9 hours a day every day.

These might seem trivial to you, but to someone like me, it's a nice change. On one character it'll be laughably easy to get the skills, but do that again 7 more times, and you'll see it's at least some kind of grind, but at least now it's something I'm willing to work for.

Same here.

DisgracefulMind

Moonshadow66 wrote: »

Metafae wrote: »

I have eight characters at v16, and I've been wanting to get these pvp skills on all of them, but you're not going to see me in pvp 9 hours a day every day.

These might seem trivial to you, but to someone like me, it's a nice change. On one character it'll be laughably easy to get the skills, but do that again 7 more times, and you'll see it's at least some kind of grind, but at least now it's something I'm willing to work for.

Same here.

I think the skills should be fairly easy to get, yes. Take the skills. Not those passives though. Please not every Templar in Cyrodiil with Battle Ress II -_-

acw37162

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

acw37162 wrote: »

Why?

What is the cost to any player who already has the skill already unlocked?

none

What is the cost to any player to who want to compete in PVP?

Less time being gimped

What is the cost to any player who only want to unlock certain skills and not PVP any more then required?

Less time being in a place he/she does not want to be in the first place

This argument comes down to those who have, feel their accomplishment is somehow cheapened, which is just a very open form of elitism .

Let those who want in come in and compete, let those who want out, out and move on it affects you not.

I have two characters that I do not PvP on that have full Combat Frenzy and Battle Rez passives, and I can assure you not everyone who doesn't want this change is being an elitist, I'm legitimately concerned as to what this is going to do to Cyrodiil. Giving those passives out to every rank 11 player is a bit much. Imagine the Kag's resses that will be going off non-stop (even worse than now), ulti spam will be easier, and so on. Those passives should legitimately be worked for to strengthen yourself and your group. 670k AP is not working for those. There is a reason those passives should be unlocked behind some sort of grind. They're strong as hell.

I really, really hope ZoS looks and this thread and gives us the compromise on this. The reduction is far too extreme.

So you want to PVP but not on equal footing and the passives are to strong for a player with three weeks in Cyrodil but not six weeks, come on.

This comes down to good old day syndrone, I had to earn it and you had it gift wrapped and given to you. Covered in a blanket of you didn't earn those passives and they are just two powerful for you.

if affects your gameplay not, outside of leveling the playing field at a faster rate.

Im still waiting for anyone to make a compelling case against so far they are quite lacking. The passives are to powerful fall into the quite lacking category

code65536

acw37162 wrote: »

Why?

What is the cost to any player who already has the skill already unlocked?

none

What is the cost to any player to who want to compete in PVP?

Less time being gimped

What is the cost to any player who only want to unlock certain skills and not PVP any more then required?

Less time being in a place he/she does not want to be in the first place

This argument comes down to those who have, feel their accomplishment is somehow cheapened, which is just a very open form of elitism .

Let those who want in come in and compete, let those who want out, out and move on it affects you not.

Taken to its finality, why not use that logic to argue that new characters should start out with all the skill lines fully unlocked--class, weapon, armor, Mage's, Fighter's, Undaunted, and Assault/Support?

The answer, of course, is that it's all a matter of degree. I am in favor of making these skills easier to get. I'm just not in favor of the extreme extent to which they're doing this on the PTS.

LadyNalcarya

code65536 wrote: »

acw37162 wrote: »

Why?

What is the cost to any player who already has the skill already unlocked?

none

What is the cost to any player to who want to compete in PVP?

Less time being gimped

What is the cost to any player who only want to unlock certain skills and not PVP any more then required?

Less time being in a place he/she does not want to be in the first place

This argument comes down to those who have, feel their accomplishment is somehow cheapened, which is just a very open form of elitism .

Let those who want in come in and compete, let those who want out, out and move on it affects you not.

Taken to its finality, why not use that logic to argue that new characters should start out with all the skill lines fully unlocked--class, weapon, armor, Mage's, Fighter's, Undaunted, and Assault/Support?

The answer, of course, is that it's all a matter of degree. I am in favor of making these skills easier to get. I'm just not in favor of the extreme extent to which they're doing this on the PTS.

This might be a bit extreme, but there's absolutely no reason for a single skill line to require 20 times more effort than any other skill line like mages/fighters guild, undaunted and vamp/ww.

DisgracefulMind

acw37162 wrote: »

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

acw37162 wrote: »

Why?

What is the cost to any player who already has the skill already unlocked?

none

What is the cost to any player to who want to compete in PVP?

Less time being gimped

What is the cost to any player who only want to unlock certain skills and not PVP any more then required?

Less time being in a place he/she does not want to be in the first place

This argument comes down to those who have, feel their accomplishment is somehow cheapened, which is just a very open form of elitism .

Let those who want in come in and compete, let those who want out, out and move on it affects you not.

I have two characters that I do not PvP on that have full Combat Frenzy and Battle Rez passives, and I can assure you not everyone who doesn't want this change is being an elitist, I'm legitimately concerned as to what this is going to do to Cyrodiil. Giving those passives out to every rank 11 player is a bit much. Imagine the Kag's resses that will be going off non-stop (even worse than now), ulti spam will be easier, and so on. Those passives should legitimately be worked for to strengthen yourself and your group. 670k AP is not working for those. There is a reason those passives should be unlocked behind some sort of grind. They're strong as hell.

I really, really hope ZoS looks and this thread and gives us the compromise on this. The reduction is far too extreme.

So you want to PVP but not on equal footing and the passives are to strong for a player with three weeks in Cyrodil but not six weeks, come on.

This comes down to good old day syndrone, I had to earn it and you had it gift wrapped and given to you. Covered in a blanket of you didn't earn those passives and they are just two powerful for you.

if affects your gameplay not, outside of leveling the playing field at a faster rate.

Im still waiting for anyone to make a compelling case against so far they are quite lacking. The passives are to powerful fall into the quite lacking category

Didn't I say in my post that I DON'T PvP with my two Alliance Rank 24s? Can you please read before you even try to pull that with me? Out of the two characters I play on the most, only one has the first two tiers to these passives. So tell me again about leveling the playing field to my gameplay when I don't even benefit from these passives on a daily basis.

I don't want Kag's Battle Resses going off everywhere until they find a system that works better for ressurections. If there were a Res Sickness in this game, then whatever.

Enodoc

code65536 wrote: »

Nice to visualise it like that, good job! And those percentages definitely show how ridiculous a reduction of this magnitude is. Have you posted this in the official feedback threads for non-class skills and Cyrodiil?

code65536

acw37162 wrote: »

Why?

What is the cost to any player who already has the skill already unlocked?

none

What is the cost to any player to who want to compete in PVP?

Less time being gimped

What is the cost to any player who only want to unlock certain skills and not PVP any more then required?

Less time being in a place he/she does not want to be in the first place

This argument comes down to those who have, feel their accomplishment is somehow cheapened, which is just a very open form of elitism .

Let those who want in come in and compete, let those who want out, out and move on it affects you not.

And I would like to further add that play-how-you-want does not mean play-without-consequences. A PvPer can stay in Cyrodiil all day and never set foot in a dungeon if he so chooses, but there will be consequences in the form of gear that will be unavailable to him. It's not so severe a consequence that prohibits him from playing, but if he wants more, he needs to broaden his horizon and do some PvE. (I'm not a fan of the monster set vendor; I'd much rather a token system to deal with RNG hell than this.) Similarly, no PvEer needs the PvP skills. I know many stamina PvEers who don't even have Vigor, and they seem to do just fine. That's play-how-you-want. If they want more, then they should broaden their horizon and set foot in Cyrodiil; if they don't want to, then they should accept the consequences of that.

I'm mostly a PvEer, and I PvP now and then because it's fun and because the game has these mechanisms that encourage me to not hole up in a single niche and to explore all aspects of the game.

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

acw37162 wrote: »

Why?

What is the cost to any player who already has the skill already unlocked?

none

What is the cost to any player to who want to compete in PVP?

Less time being gimped

What is the cost to any player who only want to unlock certain skills and not PVP any more then required?

Less time being in a place he/she does not want to be in the first place

This argument comes down to those who have, feel their accomplishment is somehow cheapened, which is just a very open form of elitism .

Let those who want in come in and compete, let those who want out, out and move on it affects you not.

Taken to its finality, why not use that logic to argue that new characters should start out with all the skill lines fully unlocked--class, weapon, armor, Mage's, Fighter's, Undaunted, and Assault/Support?

The answer, of course, is that it's all a matter of degree. I am in favor of making these skills easier to get. I'm just not in favor of the extreme extent to which they're doing this on the PTS.

This might be a bit extreme, but there's absolutely no reason for a single skill line to require 20 times more effort than any other skill line like mages/fighters guild, undaunted and vamp/ww.

Effort is in the eye of the beholder. Good PvPers can earn a couple hundred thousand AP in a single night. To them, the new AP requirements are a joke. I'm not an elite PvPer, so if I get more than 30K AP a night, I'm happy. But as someone who runs tons of dungeons (I have almost 400 unused Undaunted keys hoarded across my characters), leveling Undaunted to 9 feels effortless (though it still takes time because I can only do two pledges a day on a character), but for a PvPer who isn't familiar with the group dungeons--someone who spends an hour just trying to get a group and then another hour or two trudging through a PUG wipefest of a dungeon--Undaunted might seems like more of a grind than Assault/Support.

LadyNalcarya

code65536 wrote: »

Effort is in the eye of the beholder. Good PvPers can earn a couple hundred thousand AP in a single night. To them, the new AP requirements are a joke. I'm not an elite PvPer, so if I get more than 30K AP a night, I'm happy. But as someone who runs tons of dungeons (I have almost 400 unused Undaunted keys hoarded across my characters), leveling Undaunted to 9 feels effortless (though it still takes time because I can only do two pledges a day on a character), but for a PvPer who isn't familiar with the group dungeons--someone who spends an hour just trying to get a group and then another hour or two trudging through a PUG wipefest of a dungeon--Undaunted might seems like more of a grind than Assault/Support.

But you dont have to be a good player (or spend enpurmous amounts f time) to get undaunted/mages guild.

AlnilamE

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

AlnilamE wrote: »

paul_j wrote: »

So it's only an issue as something to be "earned". Nothing about this is a balance issue?

Actually, it is also a balance issue. Those are pretty powerful skills and if you unlock them too early in your PvP career (and my DK unlocked War Horn after 3 evenings in PvP, for example, so some of the skills are fairly easy to get), you will become too reliant on them and run the risk of not learning proper tactics. And that would reduce PvP to Magicka Det zerg trains more than it is now, I think.

So if they want to make it easier to achieve, that's fine, but a 90% reduction in AP required is definitely overdoing it.

Meteor is easily obtaianble and is going to be op if they wont revert it. Might of the guild and undaunted mettle passives are also strong, and so is Dawnbreaker...

Is Meteor that easy? It takes at least as long as getting War Horn, perhaps even Vigor. I'll have to hop on my DK and see. She just hit V3 and she started PvP at v2.5 and she's already tier 4 in Assault/Support.

She does not yet have Meteor, and I don't think she's maxed on the FG either. In fact, even her class skills are not at 50 yet.

Now, I'm not saying keep the AP gains as they are, but making it a 90% reduction is too much.

Each of these skill lines takes work and time. The thing is, if you are doing something you enjoy, be that questing, running dungeons or PvP, it doesn't fell like "work".

If they give us more character slots, I'm going to make a toon that's just going to stay in Cyrodiil from level 10 and see how far he/she gets in those skill lines compared to the PvP skill lines.

code65536

AlnilamE wrote: »

Is Meteor that easy?

It's not. You need to get into Cadwell's Silver. And if you don't have an addon telling you exactly where every lorebook is, it's a very difficult. With AP requirements as they are on the PTS, you can get A/S 10 before you can even enter Silver.

LadyNalcarya

AlnilamE wrote: »

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

AlnilamE wrote: »

paul_j wrote: »

So it's only an issue as something to be "earned". Nothing about this is a balance issue?

Actually, it is also a balance issue. Those are pretty powerful skills and if you unlock them too early in your PvP career (and my DK unlocked War Horn after 3 evenings in PvP, for example, so some of the skills are fairly easy to get), you will become too reliant on them and run the risk of not learning proper tactics. And that would reduce PvP to Magicka Det zerg trains more than it is now, I think.

So if they want to make it easier to achieve, that's fine, but a 90% reduction in AP required is definitely overdoing it.

Meteor is easily obtaianble and is going to be op if they wont revert it. Might of the guild and undaunted mettle passives are also strong, and so is Dawnbreaker...

Is Meteor that easy? It takes at least as long as getting War Horn, perhaps even Vigor. I'll have to hop on my DK and see. She just hit V3 and she started PvP at v2.5 and she's already tier 4 in Assault/Support.

She does not yet have Meteor, and I don't think she's maxed on the FG either. In fact, even her class skills are not at 50 yet.

Now, I'm not saying keep the AP gains as they are, but making it a 90% reduction is too much.

Each of these skill lines takes work and time. The thing is, if you are doing something you enjoy, be that questing, running dungeons or PvP, it doesn't fell like "work".

If they give us more character slots, I'm going to make a toon that's just going to stay in Cyrodiil from level 10 and see how far he/she gets in those skill lines compared to the PvP skill lines.

Do not compare rank 4 and rank 7 (when you unlock magicka bomb). At first, alliance ranks are super easy to get, but progression is too steep: from 80k (?) for war horn to 800k for caltrops and then 1,6 million for the bomb.

code65536 wrote: »

AlnilamE wrote: »

Is Meteor that easy?

It's not. You need to get into Cadwell's Silver. And if you don't have an addon telling you exactly where every lorebook is, it's a very difficult. With AP requirements as they are on the PTS, you can get A/S 10 before you can even enter Silver.

Its boring, but with addon/map its really easy and doesnt require any skill whatsoever. But it unlocks one of the best ulties in game.
Or fighters guild... Can be obtained by killing undead/daedra mobs of any level and also gives one of the best ulties.
Or werewolf... Can be leveled in 30-40 minutes and can be really strong.
For pvp I think that easy access to skills will make the game more healthy because of 3 reasons:
1)I think that for pvp its really important that everyone should be on more or less equal footing. Its not possible to make it absolutely equal as its not a session-based game, but important skill shouldnt be locked behind weeks/months of playing. Of course, its fun to kill newbs with synchronized proximities and be able to rez instantly, but... I honestly do not understand why if a skill is limited to dedicated pvp players its fine, but making it available for everyone would make it "op". A player that spends a lot of time in pvp should be able to defeat a newbie even if that newbie has proximity spell. And with easily obtainable skills there will be less pvers taht zerg just to get these skills, which means less zerg and less lags.
2)Alliance skill lines take much more time than guild skills and undaunted, even if youre a good player. Imo, every skill line should require roughly the same tiem to fully level up.
3)Being able to get skills easily encourages making alts.