Let's compromise on the new PvP skill line progression

code65536

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

Do not compare rank 4 and rank 7 (when you unlock magicka bomb). At first, alliance ranks are super easy to get, but progression is too steep: from 80k (?) for war horn to 800k for caltrops and then 1,6 million for the bomb.

But we're not talking about 1.6M Det--we're talking about a measly 200K for Det and under 700K to get Combat Frenzy 2. Yes, I agree that the AP requirements on Live are too steep. But nerfing the cost by 90% is also a bit of an overreaction.

MissBizz

Just going to leave my 2 cents here.

I don't PvP, but I would absolutely love to get caltrops and barrier one day.

I also would be willing to actually go PvP (rather than just PvE in Cyrodiil/IC like I currently do) if I wanted them bad enough.

They are slow moving skill lines, so I really appreciate of they move a bit faster than live, but just seeing the numbers makes me realize how much easier they made it. I'd be cool with a compromise.

Mojmir

With vet ranks going away at some point,it should also make it easier to lvl fighters,mage,undaunted. This falls in line with that.all skills should be easier to unlock.

iamnotweakrwb17_ESO

I can't believe people are complaining about having a grind lessened. Grinding is the absolute worst thing in any MMO. A grind is just a carrot dangled in front of your nose to get you to do something you would not normally do. Games used to be about having fun. Now they are jobs. The fun comes after a big long grind when you finally get a chance to enjoy your character. What does that remind you all of? That's right, the grind of life. You spend your entire life working to try and build a life that you will either be too old to enjoy or dead! Very few ever achieve what they want in life and nobody who does achieves it through grinding. Sigh!

tengri

All those complaining left and right about these changes and babbling about how it has to be "earned" are only afraid to suddenly meet a lot of their usual farming material on (more) equal footing.

Was exactly the same when Z reduced vigor requirements.
There are a handful of really awesome PvP players who actually want to fight on more even grounds - which these changes will provide significantly faster.
And then there is a huge, loud and ugly mob of wannabes who think they deserve and want to keep every fair and unfair advantage they can hold onto.
Dont be a mob.

Thealteregoroman

paul_j wrote: »

gw2only1b14_ESO wrote: »

paul_j wrote: »

I feel like things like skills should come naturally through leveling and not grinding. Don't we have loot and equipment to show off as an achievement? I just think that skills whether it's the Mage skill line, undaunted, or any of the pvp skill lines should be available. Titles and the grind for equipment should be the achievement

Ehhh well lets see PVP is one big instance based Dungeon of sorts and instead of 1 man or a 4 man group going into pve and going for some random gear drop etc. PVP has the reward of besting other players in combat (boss mob) and earning rewards(ap/gain) which grant them there reward they seek( skill line advancment).

So for pvpers this is a reward there achievement "there title" I pvped to earn this...

Look at it that way and you'll see why

How many ranks are there? What level/rank do you need to be to unlock all the skills? So after you unlock skills are you at the final rank? Slow down rank gain but let us filthy pvp casuals use the skills

THANK YOU!

Thealteregoroman

Metafae wrote: »

I have eight characters at v16, and I've been wanting to get these pvp skills on all of them, but you're not going to see me in pvp 9 hours a day every day.

These might seem trivial to you, but to someone like me, it's a nice change. On one character it'll be laughably easy to get the skills, but do that again 7 more times, and you'll see it's at least some kind of grind, but at least now it's something I'm willing to work for.

THIS!!!!

Thealteregoroman

acw37162 wrote: »

Why?

What is the cost to any player who already has the skill already unlocked?

none

What is the cost to any player to who want to compete in PVP?

Less time being gimped

What is the cost to any player who only want to unlock certain skills and not PVP any more then required?

Less time being in a place he/she does not want to be in the first place

This argument comes down to those who have, feel their accomplishment is somehow cheapened, which is just a very open form of elitism .

Let those who want in come in and compete, let those who want out, out and move on it affects you not.

I TOTALLY AGREE!

Wing

acw37162 wrote: »

Why?

What is the cost to any player who already has the skill already unlocked?

none

What is the cost to any player to who want to compete in PVP?

Less time being gimped

What is the cost to any player who only want to unlock certain skills and not PVP any more then required?

Less time being in a place he/she does not want to be in the first place

This argument comes down to those who have, feel their accomplishment is somehow cheapened, which is just a very open form of elitism .

Let those who want in come in and compete, let those who want out, out and move on it affects you not.

completely agree, and I already got rank 10 on one character and halfway through another.

just people being selfish.

I would like to add if the same thing has not been done to undaunted it should be, I know a lot of PvP'rs don't want to grind that out so its only fair.

Ampnode

A lot of you guys sure do care about your 24 man zerg earned ranks.

On topic, though. The 'Proposed Compromise' is very much a better solution to making AvA ranks on the easier side compared to Live for those that want to get certain abilities. While just realizing they doubled AP gain, I also realized that the PTS requirement for each rank is actually a joke now. You can get rank 10 in what, 5-6 days if you played frequently on those days? +1 for this.

Bossdonut

Games been out 2 years and I'm sick of grinding alts up in the laggiest *** since 56k. So sorry your parade of transferring to console and dumping all over the newbies with prox det is getting rained out.

ITT: crying.

AlnilamE

iamnotweakrwb17_ESO wrote: »

I can't believe people are complaining about having a grind lessened. Grinding is the absolute worst thing in any MMO. A grind is just a carrot dangled in front of your nose to get you to do something you would not normally do. Games used to be about having fun. Now they are jobs. The fun comes after a big long grind when you finally get a chance to enjoy your character. What does that remind you all of? That's right, the grind of life. You spend your entire life working to try and build a life that you will either be too old to enjoy or dead! Very few ever achieve what they want in life and nobody who does achieves it through grinding. Sigh!

It's a grind for you. Not for me. For me the fun is in the way to the goal. I don't think of my characters as only being enjoyable once they are v16 and decked in gold gear. It's the process of learning them that's fun. And learning to PvP and leveling in the AvA ranks is part of that fun as well.

James-Wayne

Remember ZOS has stats that we do not and the change being so slow is probably because there are TONS of players with a very low AP rating.

The change is low because they need to balance things out especially for console players who lacked the one year of play time in PvP to rank up quickly using exploit methods.

SmalltalkJava

code65536 wrote: »

As you can see from the chart above, the Assault/Support skill line progression has become substantially cheaper--a 90% reduction on the total AP needed to reach Assault/Support 10--on the PTS, compared to what it is on Live.

While I agree that the Assault/Support requirements on Live are a bit too much, this swings the pendulum too far in the opposite direction, and judging from the comments on the PTS forum, this is a concern shared by many others. Furthermore, on the PTS, the new skill ranks no longer coincide neatly with the progression of AvA ranks.

So what I propose is a compromise, where instead of progressing in Assault/Support every 3 AvA ranks, we progress every 2 AvA ranks.

1. This still reduces the total AP cost of Vigor by over half and still represents a very substantial 2/3 reduction in total AP needed to reach max Assault/Support.
2. Reaching the max Assault/Support under the proposal would require advancing to an officer rank (Lieutenant) and would retain some of the feeling of achievement. The 90% reduction in total AP cost was just far too cheapening of something that should have at least some sense of progression and achievement attached to it.
3. Keeping the Assault/Support skill ranks aligned with the AvA ranks would make the AvA rank-ups feel more rewarding. This is especially true if the skill ranks are aligned with the AvA ranks that grant a new insignia and title, as this proposal would do.
4. It's also a much easier progression to communicate to players and to remember: you get more skills unlocked each time you earn a new insignia and title. The new progression on the PTS, where some skill ranks come right before an AvA rank (e.g., A/S 9 coming just a few thousand shy of AvA 10) or right after an AvA rank (e.g., A/S 5 coming just 2K after getting AvA 6) makes absolutely no sense to me. Did you guys just use a random number generator for the new progression?
5. Keeping the skill progression aligned with the AvA progression would mean that each new skill unlock will coincide with the earning of an AvA skill point. You know, for convenience.

@ZOS_BrianWheeler @ZOS_RichLambert Please consider this. Even though I PvE more than I PvP and have lamented the rate of the PvP skill progression, the progression on the PTS is just far too cheap to have any meaning. And the loss of alignment with the AvA ranks is just... messy.

(Thanks to @Paulington and @Enodoc for the ranks' AP requirements.)

Two different scales not aligning isn't a reason to make them align, except for OCD reasons. it has 0 negative effect on your game or anyone else's. It will be a very positive thing for the game. The vast majority of People will feel their accomplishment and be grateful. Especially those on their numerous alts. 0 reason to move the numbers higher.

Drakilian

paul_j wrote: »

You wouldn't want to be able to use Meteor right after joining the Mage's Guild, would you?[/b

Yes.

Yes I would.

cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO

AlnilamE wrote: »

iamnotweakrwb17_ESO wrote: »

I can't believe people are complaining about having a grind lessened. Grinding is the absolute worst thing in any MMO. A grind is just a carrot dangled in front of your nose to get you to do something you would not normally do. Games used to be about having fun. Now they are jobs. The fun comes after a big long grind when you finally get a chance to enjoy your character. What does that remind you all of? That's right, the grind of life. You spend your entire life working to try and build a life that you will either be too old to enjoy or dead! Very few ever achieve what they want in life and nobody who does achieves it through grinding. Sigh!

It's a grind for you. Not for me. For me the fun is in the way to the goal. I don't think of my characters as only being enjoyable once they are v16 and decked in gold gear. It's the process of learning them that's fun. And learning to PvP and leveling in the AvA ranks is part of that fun as well.

You can learn to PvP even with lowered requirements, and you'll still rank up etc. You posted no reasons that it should be changed again other than that you want people that hate it to drag themselves through it.

Casdha

I think it is funny to see the arguments here about this subject, yet you go to the scaled crafting node page and see same arguments from the other side.

(Person 1) It is not suppose to be easy, it is suppose to require work, If you don't do it this way then you don't deserve the benefit.

(Person 2) I've got three different characters that does this, it is to much work if I have to do it multiple times. It is suppose to be fun, how can it be fun If I have to do something I don't want to do over and over or I have to go through extra effort to do it.

I wonder if folks find it fun to defend against the same arguments that they use?

Edit: The moral of the story is, if you want your characters to do everything on every character it is gonna take extra work and cost to get there regardless how you play.

Edit 2: Oh and if you ask for something to be easier for your style of play don't be surprised when your style of play becomes easier for someone else. (They just nerfed the heck out of how much work it takes to gather VR15/16 mats, seems only fair that they nerf the time it takes to PvP)

Vaoh

"The Mage's Guild Skill line has undergone significant revision. It will now level up at much faster pace:
Rank 1 - 0 lorebooks
Rank 2 - 3 lorebooks
Rank 3 - 7 lorebooks
Rank 4 - 12 lorebooks
Rank 5 - 17 lorebooks
Rank 6 - 22 lorebooks
Rank 7 - 28 lorebooks
Rank 8 - 32 lorebooks
Rank 9 - 36 lorebooks
Rank 10 - 41 lorebooks

Might of the Guild(2) now unlocks at Mage's Guild Rank 9."

This is how I feel right now.

Would be cool if ZOS lowered some of these high requirements right?
I'd think so, but I'd also call this a bit too much of a decrease...

Septimus_Magna

Alliance War skill rank 10 with only 670k AP? What a joke, unbelievable.

Guess my Dunmer DK will unlock Combat Frenzy II really fast, probably in 15-20 hours of pvp.

Meshal

I don't understand why you're upset about the 90%, the less the better! I don't care about the rank nor pvp whatsoever! so why do I have to go through the suffer of doing pvp because u guys want to put the skills behind a huge wall?

Aunatar

Everyone will have free connat frenzy 2/2 and proxy.
MOAR unreflectable meteor spam, good job zenimax!

TheValkyn

Aunatar wrote: »

Everyone will have free connat frenzy 2/2 and proxy.
MOAR unreflectable meteor spam, good job zenimax!

There's probably a good reason as to why meteor is not a reflected projectile anymore. I know - pitchforks and noose are a lot more fun.

code65536

Meshal wrote: »

I don't understand why you're upset about the 90%, the less the better! I don't care about the rank nor pvp whatsoever! so why do I have to go through the suffer of doing pvp because u guys want to put the skills behind a huge wall?

Well, why even have it rank up, then? Just give everyone every skill in the game. Why bother leveling class lines, guild lines, etc.? At what point do you stop and say, "You should actually do something before you can use these powerful skills."? This is about where that line should be, and what's reasonable. And, IMHO, a 90% reduction from what it used to be isn't exactly reasonable.

Faulgor

I feel the PvP crowd doesn't really get how slow and awful gaining AP is for newcomers.

You get into a campaign, and on a good day, there's something going on. So you walk or ride there for several minutes, maybe you will even join a group. Your first experience is to get wrecked by a zerg, and you feel unable to contribute anything to your own and your group's survival. If you not decide to quit at that point, you might find a smaller encounter later on, and get killed by something you haven't seen before and don't know how to defend yourself against, and the TTK is too short for you to learn anything from that experience. If you still stick around, you might have a chance to kill someone with somebody's help and you get your first AP. Hooray! At the end of the session, you are happily looking at your 2k AP after 2 hours of play.
Then you look how much longer it will take to reach the next rank, and you give up.

I feel a faster rate to rank up the Alliance War skills will only help to get more people interested in PvP, and not take anything away from the established PvP crowd.

Leandor

So, they are removing CP from BWB because it creates too much imbalance and then proceed to change the most powerful skill line in respect to pvp to allow rank 10 easily in BWB as long as you know what you do? Does anybody really think that a pimped twink with rank 10 in assault and support will be any less hard to overcome even after CP removal?

SMH...

Turelus

Can I have the undaunted skills from only clearing the non-VR dungeons then?

On a serious note, I am fine with lowered cost, it's a terrible grind right now. However yeah... less than 1mil AP? That's pretty damn fast to earn even for a PUG group.

Lava_Croft

Please increase the amount of AP required for the Alliance War skill lines or just noobify the game even further and make us able to max out Undaunted by doing 3 pledges.

Xjcon

As long as the ranks stay the same leave it be. Skill lines shouldn't take months to get maxed out.

I have proxy det on my main on live. I worked for it. It took me about 2 weeks with most the time being a no lifer on the weekends.

If you want your hard earned rank/title fine keep em. You deserve them for you efforts in PVP.

Draxys

tengri wrote: »

All those complaining left and right about these changes and babbling about how it has to be "earned" are only afraid to suddenly meet a lot of their usual farming material on (more) equal footing.

Was exactly the same when Z reduced vigor requirements.
There are a handful of really awesome PvP players who actually want to fight on more even grounds - which these changes will provide significantly faster.
And then there is a huge, loud and ugly mob of wannabes who think they deserve and want to keep every fair and unfair advantage they can hold onto.
Dont be a mob.

Haha farming material will still be nowhere close to equal footing, no one is scared about that, you're just trying to make your opinion look superior.

code65536

Faulgor wrote: »

I feel a faster rate to rank up the Alliance War skills will only help to get more people interested in PvP, and not take anything away from the established PvP crowd.

Faster? Sure! I hear PvE players all the time say the won't even bother because it's just too far out of reach. The question is whether this is too fast.