Let's compromise on the new PvP skill line progression

leepalmer95

James-Wayne wrote: »

Remember ZOS has stats that we do not and the change being so slow is probably because there are TONS of players with a very low AP rating.

The change is low because they need to balance things out especially for console players who lacked the one year of play time in PvP to rank up quickly using exploit methods.

Yet i'm a console player who has proxy det on 3 characters. Did i grind it? No? It took time though, took hard work/effort and gold to earn the hard but effective skills now.

Now with this change i could of earned proxy det on a character in 1 day.

It's ridiculous and the result of pve crying about having to do something they don't like. Much like the fact in order to pvp, pvpers have to go and do the entirety of pvp as well as grind mage/fighers guild

But hey if your nerfing grinding, lets nerf mage/fighters/undaunted/lvl1-50 grind/v1-16 grind while where there by 90%?

Seems fair.

silentgecko

As a PvE Player:
I love the changes to the AP requirements!

Because i never liked the PvP in ESO, and my max ava rank on live on my chars is Rank 6. and this only for warhorn.
I hate it, when i'm forced to do stuff that i don't like, but i have no other choice to.
As a pve player, getting the magicka detonation is like going through hell. i have to play a lot of hours, just to get a single step further to it.
with the new change i can go to cyrodiil and get it in a few hours, and done.

For all this PvP players who don't play PvE: The Magicka Deto is nearly a must have skill for every progression player in trials.

as a suggestion:
Increase the needed AP for a higher rank after reaching the max on the skill line. Then everyone can use the skills with a little bit of farming, but you won't get the higher ava ranks without PvPing

leepalmer95

silentgecko wrote: »

As a PvE Player:
I love the changes to the AP requirements!

Because i never liked the PvP in ESO, and my max ava rank on live on my chars is Rank 6. and this only for warhorn.
I hate it, when i'm forced to do stuff that i don't like, but i have no other choice to.
As a pve player, getting the magicka detonation is like going through hell. i have to play a lot of hours, just to get a single step further to it.
with the new change i can go to cyrodiil and get it in a few hours, and done.

For all this PvP players who don't play PvE: The Magicka Deto is nearly a must have skill for every progression player in trials.

as a suggestion:
Increase the needed AP for a higher rank after reaching the max on the skill line. Then everyone can use the skills with a little bit of farming, but you won't get the higher ava ranks without PvPing

This is every pvp players whose is forced to pve so they can pvp and do the stuff they actually enjoy.

Decrease the time for mage/fighter/undaunted skills by 90% while your there.

Instant

leepalmer95 wrote: »

But hey if your nerfing grinding, lets nerf mage/fighters/undaunted/lvl1-50 grind/v1-16 grind while where there by 90%?

Seems fair.

Do you really want to compare this with the undaunted grind?

It takes 1500 undaunted points to get to rank 10 in the undaunted skill line. You get 500 of those points for completing the dungeons for the first time + some speed/no-death achievements. That means you only need to get 1000 undaunted points from the dailies.

You get 30 undaunted points for doing silver + gold. That means you need to do 1000/30=33.333 silver+gold quests.
An average group should be able to this in 45min so thats 25hours of doing undaunted quests.

Now lets compare this to the assault skill line. You need to get 1624000 AP to unlock the last active ability (prox det).
An average player gets like 20k AP/hour? Yes, i know its possible to do more but i doubt the average player is able to achieve much higher gains per hour. So at 20k AP/hour it takes 81hours till you have prox det.

Im not in favor of reducing the AP required by 90% but the current situation is not quite fair either compared to the time it takes to level undaunted.

Aleraon

xskinzcity wrote: »

Great now were gonna have low ranked pvp players balling through cyrodill with proxi det spam and lagging out the servers.

As opposed to higher rank pvp players currently doing exactly that?

leepalmer95

Instant wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

But hey if your nerfing grinding, lets nerf mage/fighters/undaunted/lvl1-50 grind/v1-16 grind while where there by 90%?

Seems fair.

Do you really want to compare this with the undaunted grind?

It takes 1500 undaunted points to get to rank 10 in the undaunted skill line. You get 500 of those points for completing the dungeons for the first time + some speed/no-death achievements. That means you only need to get 1000 undaunted points from the dailies.

You get 30 undaunted points for doing silver + gold. That means you need to do 1000/30=33.333 silver+gold quests.
An average group should be able to this in 45min so thats 25hours of doing undaunted quests.

Now lets compare this to the assault skill line. You need to get 1624000 AP to unlock the last active ability (prox det).
An average player gets like 20k AP/hour? Yes, i know its possible to do more but i doubt the average player is able to achieve much higher gains per hour. So at 20k AP/hour it takes 81hours till you have prox det.

Im not in favor of reducing the AP required by 90% but the current situation is not quite fair either compared to the time it takes to level undaunted.

So why isn't that fair? Pvp players have to level everything to get pve skills? Mage/fighters/undaunted. There all a lot easier to get then pvp skills.

But why does it have to suddenly become really easy to get? Everyone who has them worked hard for them already? Now because pve players are getting more lazy and randomer can get assault 10 in 1-2 days?

Like i said if were reducing the time it takes to get the rewards from pvp, do the same for pve. If you want access to skills with a 90% reduction in time, then i want all pve stuff a 90% reduction in time.

You get alliance skills/passives faster and i get pvp charcters up faster. Thats fair right?

Instant

leepalmer95 wrote: »

So why isn't that fair? Pvp players have to level everything to get pve skills? Mage/fighters/undaunted. There all a lot easier to get then pvp skills.

Yes, you are right. It is easier to get mage/fighter/undaunted skills than pvp skills. And thats why i think it is fair to reduce the AP needed to lvl up in the pvp skill line.

Btw PvE players have to collect books as well to get mages guild skills.

Enodoc

Instant wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

So why isn't that fair? Pvp players have to level everything to get pve skills? Mage/fighters/undaunted. There all a lot easier to get then pvp skills.

Yes, you are right. It is easier to get mage/fighter/undaunted skills than pvp skills. And thats why i think it is fair to reduce the AP needed to lvl up in the pvp skill line.

Yeah it's fair to reduce the AP, but not by this much. I put this in one of the other threads on this, but I think it's a good example of comparison to Fighters Guild:

Here's my thinking: You have to kill 4272 Undead/Daedra to max Fighters Guild (assuming one elite per 5 standard mobs, and 5 FG rep for an elite kill). Assuming 800 AP per player kill, that's 3.4 mil AP for 4272 player kills. 3.4 mil AP puts you at Alliance Rank 19. Drop that down to Alliance Rank 17 (2.4 mil AP), and you get a nice increment of one skill line level every two ranks, and something that is kill-comparable to levelling Fighters Guild.

Mojmir

First off there is no pvp in cyrodiil,its all lagged out, repetive,zergs flip-flopping keeps so one person can be emperor. BTW the emp farming bs on azuras is just idiotic right now.bottom line everything in this game is a grind,but the pvp skill line is the worst.

Aunatar

February 28th is so close. Just saying.

Personofsecrets

No compromise on tank nerfs, no compromise on this

Faulgor

Instant wrote: »

An average player gets like 20k AP/hour?

Gosh, that's average? The best I ever got was probably 8k in one hour.

LadyNalcarya

Also if they're going to introduce pvp arenas/battlegrouds, skills cant be locked behind months of playing.

Haquor

code65536 wrote: »

Yes, but that's also over-simplifying things. You wouldn't want all your class skills handed out to you without earning them, would you? You wouldn't want to be able to use Meteor right after joining the Mage's Guild, would you? Again, it's about finding the right balance between the sense of achievement and accessibility of skills. This balance doesn't exist on Live. But it doesn't exist on the PTS, either.

If the early mobs were dropping meteors on me and spamming impulse then YES i would have gladly taken those skills at the time. comparing cyrodil to early pvp is a lame justification. i have 3 leutenants. but i have 8x v16s and i for one could not be bothered ranking them all and welcome the change. Your rank and little symbol can still be earned if you require that sense of achievement. im personally in pvp for the combat experience. why does it offend people that players can access vigor/caltops/proxy? it is so fricken easy to unlock every other skill in the game that are equally important to everyones builds why put those skills behind such a grind.

you still get the prestige of being a big bad grand overlord before them. let them throw caltrops ffs.

seriously what is the problem? just cause some of us did it the hard way (multiple times) doesnt mean its appropriate. how about we make every pve alt and character do the original vet1-10 grind.... just rollback everyone so its fair.

Haquor

Enodoc wrote: »

Yeah it's fair to reduce the AP, but not by this much. I put this in one of the other threads on this, but I think it's a good example of comparison to Fighters Guild:

Here's my thinking: You have to kill 4272 Undead/Daedra to max Fighters Guild (assuming one elite per 5 standard mobs, and 5 FG rep for an elite kill). Assuming 800 AP per player kill, that's 3.4 mil AP for 4272 player kills. 3.4 mil AP puts you at Alliance Rank 19. Drop that down to Alliance Rank 17 (2.4 mil AP), and you get a nice increment of one skill line level every two ranks, and something that is kill-comparable to levelling Fighters Guild.

You are not getting 800ap per kill in cyrodil. solo kills maybe. average ap on kills... no.

Instant

Faulgor wrote: »

Instant wrote: »

An average player gets like 20k AP/hour?

Gosh, that's average? The best I ever got was probably 8k in one hour.

It's just an assumption. Might be even less ofc.

AlnilamE

Instant wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

But hey if your nerfing grinding, lets nerf mage/fighters/undaunted/lvl1-50 grind/v1-16 grind while where there by 90%?

Seems fair.

Do you really want to compare this with the undaunted grind?

It takes 1500 undaunted points to get to rank 10 in the undaunted skill line. You get 500 of those points for completing the dungeons for the first time + some speed/no-death achievements. That means you only need to get 1000 undaunted points from the dailies.

You get 30 undaunted points for doing silver + gold. That means you need to do 1000/30=33.333 silver+gold quests.
An average group should be able to this in 45min so thats 25hours of doing undaunted quests.

Now lets compare this to the assault skill line. You need to get 1624000 AP to unlock the last active ability (prox det).
An average player gets like 20k AP/hour? Yes, i know its possible to do more but i doubt the average player is able to achieve much higher gains per hour. So at 20k AP/hour it takes 81hours till you have prox det.

Im not in favor of reducing the AP required by 90% but the current situation is not quite fair either compared to the time it takes to level undaunted.

See this is where people live in different realities. An "average group" CANNOT clear the silver and gold pledges in 45 minutes. Depending on what the gold pledge is, you may be looking at 3 hours. A good group can clear both in about an hour, perhaps (again, depending on which they are). Death challenges with an average group? That could take several days.

I mentioned my DK in a previous comment, and now I'm in game I can post her skill lines:

Quest-wise, she just finished Coldharbour and unlocked Silver and has done a few delves in Cyrodiil.

V3
Ardent Flame: 49
Draconic Power: 50
Earthen Hearth: 47
Two Handed: 48
One Hand and Shield: 48
Destro Staff: 45
Light Armor: 46
Medium Armor: 45
Heavy Armor: 50
Fighters' Guild: 10
Mages Guild: 9
Undaunted: 4
Assault/Support: 4

(She's also 50 in Provisioning, Woodworking, Clothing and Blacksmithing, but that's neither here nor there).

Now, for the Undaunted, she's missing 4 normal dungeons and she's done 1 pledge so far. For PvP, she's spent 3 evenings in PvP earlier this week (got her half a VR too). I think if I took turns and spent one evening in PvP and one trying to do the pledges, the skill lines would go up more or less at the same speed.

And again, I want to say that I'm fine with lowering the requirements for the skill lines. I just think that a 90% reduction is too much.

kojou

I want to cast my vote in favor of the changes to AVA ranks for TG. The grind was way to steep. In live my main is assault rank 7 and has all the good stuff, but it makes me not even want to bother taking any other toon into PvP, because I won't have any of the good skills. With this change I am already thinking about which toon I am going to take into PvP next. I think this will make PvP more fun and give a lot of players incentive to come play.

Consider this... the primarily PvE players that come in for this will be easy pickings for the veteran players and will provide lots of AP for the new item sets. It is a Win/Win IMHO.

In conclusion, swallow your ego and enjoy the game.

Casdha

leepalmer95 wrote: »

James-Wayne wrote: »

Remember ZOS has stats that we do not and the change being so slow is probably because there are TONS of players with a very low AP rating.

The change is low because they need to balance things out especially for console players who lacked the one year of play time in PvP to rank up quickly using exploit methods.

Yet i'm a console player who has proxy det on 3 characters. Did i grind it? No? It took time though, took hard work/effort and gold to earn the hard but effective skills now.

Now with this change i could of earned proxy det on a character in 1 day.

It's ridiculous and the result of pve crying about having to do something they don't like. Much like the fact in order to pvp, pvpers have to go and do the entirety of pvp as well as grind mage/fighers guild

But hey if your nerfing grinding, lets nerf mage/fighters/undaunted/lvl1-50 grind/v1-16 grind while where there by 90%?

Seems fair.

Dude,,,, They already have. They have done it for a year and a half on everything else now they hit PvP and your surprised. I personally think it was long overdue. And yes you're right, it doesn't help to cry about it.

MarrazzMist

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

Moonshadow66 wrote: »

Metafae wrote: »

I have eight characters at v16, and I've been wanting to get these pvp skills on all of them, but you're not going to see me in pvp 9 hours a day every day.

These might seem trivial to you, but to someone like me, it's a nice change. On one character it'll be laughably easy to get the skills, but do that again 7 more times, and you'll see it's at least some kind of grind, but at least now it's something I'm willing to work for.

Same here.

I think the skills should be fairly easy to get, yes. Take the skills. Not those passives though. Please not every Templar in Cyrodiil with Battle Ress II -_-

Maybe this is good compromise? Skills easier, passives harder?

Lack of vigor keeps me away from Maelstrom arena with my main & only vet16 character, as I only pvp with other char with my guild in different alliance. I know... QQ... but now I see a slight possibility to go and get vigor for my dearie dual wielding dk.

Shaggygaming

Adonikam wrote: »

No one should be forced to play in a lag infested zone where sometimes abilities do not even work. I think the solution to make both parties happy is to leave the passives alone at their current AP per rank and have the abilities unlock sooner. PVE player can have their abilities and PVP players can have their increased ultimate gain and faster rez times.

This is the answer.

Khaos_Bane

If they make the alliance skills account wide I am fine with them keeping the current cost. Otherwise it needs to be DRASTICALLY reduced as they have made it.

Aquanova

paul_j wrote: »

I haven't touched pvp since I started playing but what's the problem with unlocking skills for everyone? I was planning on pvping only to get barrier and test it out when I heal in group dungeons as a sorc. I'm glad it takes much less time for these skills. Is it a balance issue for pvp? Or is it because people are complaining they took an x amount of time to get these skills?

I agree. What's wrong with those skills being available when you START to pvp, rather than after you've pvp d for months? It answer is nothing. Those skills will help even the playing field for new or casual players. It seems that those who have them already want everyone to follow the same slow, painful grind they had to do, simply because they had to. With the skill lines available from the start, you now have what's at least needed to to be competitive with player's who have been playing for the last 2 years.

To me, those who disagree are simply trying to keep the advantage they've enjoyed, and like the fact that there are player's who will be incapable of beating them since they lack those skills.

The assault and support skill lines have some of the most powerful skills in the game that can be obtained from any class, and they work for both pvp and pve.

I for one am glad that ZOS has finally realized that locking those skills behind that chappy grind was the wrong thing to do for the health of the game. It kept the seasoned and experienced players on top, and pretty much demoralized a lot of the up start player's.

blur

I think they should keep the old numbers and just make AvA levels account wide. Having to regrind this stuff for alts is just silly. Moreover people who want AvA 50 are forced to play one character. For those of us with lives and full time schedules this makes every hour in ESO important and focused on that single character.

This new system however is much more friendly for alt grinds at least for the first 10 ranks.

driosketch

I'm fine with it, they changed the skill unlock, not the Alliance ranks. I would still be Skill 10 under the compromise, but I have 7 alts I'd like to unlock skills for.

As for every new player unlocking mag det early, good. I've said this before. The reason prox det became a tool of the AoE trains is because they had the AP ranks to unlock it. And the pugs didn't have the ranks to unlock I det to counter that play style. Combined with the other changes in the patch notes, if and when this goes live, lag ball playstyle is going down.

...or it might come to BWB. Either is a possibility now that I think about it

Zerok

I agree with the changes simply because I lack the time to do enough PvP to get those skills.

I don't see why PvP players would care about those changes. I thought the most important thing for them was... well PvPing.

What does it matter that other players with less playtime can now actually get those skills? It has nothing to do with them.

And don't tell me about the PvE grind, because I actually agree with you. I don't have much playtime, so anything ZOS do to make my life easier (PvE or PvP), I'll take it.

Vezuls

So you complain because you want a sense of "accomplishment" for grinding PvP 10 hours a day for a week, or 4 hours a day for a month? Ok, I expect you PvP player to not buy the monster set pieces that are sold, because now we PvE players are no longer special.

Seriously, get off of your high horse. They obviously wanted to better balance the time between Undaunted and Assault/Support because they are both the content specific skill lines (as you can only earn xp for them in either PvP or PvE).

This change is good, and needs to go live. None of you who can spend way more time than others are entitled to getting great skills more than anyone else. If you think this way, boycott the Undaunted Shoulders/Helmets. PvE players had to grind for weeks or even months to get the helmet or shoulder with the perfect trait, and now you get a chance every day to get one. You don't even have to step inside a dungeon anymore, we still have to come to the lag fast known as Cyrodil.

But wait, the PvPers will somehow feel they have earned the AP to get the monster pieces which would further prove the hypocrisy and toxicness of the community.


TLDR; The change is fine, PvPers are butthurt because they won't be special anymore, but I guarantee they'll buy every monster shoulder/helmet they don't have and think nothing of it.

Vezuls

leepalmer95 wrote: »

James-Wayne wrote: »

Remember ZOS has stats that we do not and the change being so slow is probably because there are TONS of players with a very low AP rating.

The change is low because they need to balance things out especially for console players who lacked the one year of play time in PvP to rank up quickly using exploit methods.

Yet i'm a console player who has proxy det on 3 characters. Did i grind it? No? It took time though, took hard work/effort and gold to earn the hard but effective skills now.

Now with this change i could of earned proxy det on a character in 1 day.

It's ridiculous and the result of pve crying about having to do something they don't like. Much like the fact in order to pvp, pvpers have to go and do the entirety of pvp as well as grind mage/fighers guild

But hey if your nerfing grinding, lets nerf mage/fighters/undaunted/lvl1-50 grind/v1-16 grind while where there by 90%?

Seems fair.

To be fair they are nerfing grinding by VR 16 x 850.000 xp per vet level = 13,600,000 exp. Now, assuming it takes 1 million exp to get 1-50 1,000,000/13,600,000 x 100% = 7.35% of what it used to be. 100% - 7.35% = 92.65% EASIER. You asked for 90%, well look at that. So can we now agree that your argument holds as much weight as a grain of salt?

Vezuls

Enodoc wrote: »

Instant wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

So why isn't that fair? Pvp players have to level everything to get pve skills? Mage/fighters/undaunted. There all a lot easier to get then pvp skills.

Yes, you are right. It is easier to get mage/fighter/undaunted skills than pvp skills. And thats why i think it is fair to reduce the AP needed to lvl up in the pvp skill line.

Yeah it's fair to reduce the AP, but not by this much. I put this in one of the other threads on this, but I think it's a good example of comparison to Fighters Guild:

Here's my thinking: You have to kill 4272 Undead/Daedra to max Fighters Guild (assuming one elite per 5 standard mobs, and 5 FG rep for an elite kill). Assuming 800 AP per player kill, that's 3.4 mil AP for 4272 player kills. 3.4 mil AP puts you at Alliance Rank 19. Drop that down to Alliance Rank 17 (2.4 mil AP), and you get a nice increment of one skill line level every two ranks, and something that is kill-comparable to levelling Fighters Guild.

Let me apply logic and variables to your thinking, and show you why the change is conforming to your thinking.

How long does it take to kill 1 Player in PvP opposed to 1 mob with barely any health. Most people now a days grind, so I'm willing to low ball for the sake of argument and say you can kill 20 fighters guild mobs in the time it takes to kill 1 Player.

Why? Roaming from keep to keep/engagement to engagement takes a lot of time, whereas a grind spot is simply that. A static amount of adds that spawn at set intervals of time following their death. So, we have a ratio of 20:1

Ok, so let's divide: (4272 daedra kills/1) * (1 Player / 20 Daedra Kills) = 213.6 player Kills
213.6 Kills * 800 Ap/kill = 170,880 Ap.
Well, I'll be.. Almost the amount of time it takes to get Proxy

Ballzy321

They are giving away monster sets for ap but they can't give away Ava skill lines. People need to relax. I don't mind the grind but now I can play around with det on my other Alts now. i like the change.