Too many fights are just STUPID hard

Bhakura

Pele wrote: »

Some of the fights deemed extremely difficult are solo only.

Oh god not again ...

already posted a few times why that is ... backtrack posts, tired of repeating.

Wargasmo

dracobains_ESO wrote: »

I am not among those who think this game is a pleasure ride. It feels too much like a first person shooter and less like an MMO to me so I suspect that is a generational thing. Most players my age are not liking the questing. But we all long for DAOC so we endure for the pvp. This is not a condemnation of the game, it is merely what we enjoy and subjective to all of us alike.

It's not a generational thing. Rather, it's whether you fall in the DAoC camp or the Everquest camp. PVE in this game was made for the EQ camp's model and PvP tried to capture DAoC undertones. Unfortunately, this attracted a disparate group of players who do not necessarily want the same thing. I like the PvE so far in this game. I despise open world pvp as a concept. Too often, it degenerates into zergs mindlessly spamming skills at each other with no thought to skill. While I would prefer a numbers limited battleground/arena setup for PvP, I recognize that the players who long for DAoC will never give up the ghost regarding open world pvp. That's fine I guess, and I'm more than happy to zerg with you every once in a while regardless of whether or not I think it's the way pvp should be done.

In any case, I digress. The point was that people of our generation (and since you played DAoC while I was probably playing EQ, I'm thinking we're of the same generation) also are split between whether we think pve raiding, grouping, and even leveling should have inherent difficulty or not.

Sakiri

All I know is that when the fight's difficulty is to the point where I get a phone call of "hey, can you log me in and do this fight for me" there's a problem.

That is all.

fiachsidhe

All I know is, that fight with the Titan and Mannimarco was so over the top stupid, I forgot how to do math for a month. Its like they didn't even try to make it sensible.

Many quests seem to be written as an insult to my intelligence (Please decide if I should abandon my own father, or save him, stranger I only just met.
Or, Please decide whether I should sacrifice my own life or someone else, stranger I just met. I'm to die? Ok happy to help..
Or, We're vampires, we can't go out during the day because we burn...fellow vampire who just came in out of the sun.)

But Zenimax's quest designers really want me to believe that the three legendary heroes with me, can't just mop up by themselves? But also go the extra nine yards, and outright suck? Get bent!

poodlemasterb16_ESO

Oh hell, just put difficulty settings in. It will be more difficult to do than a single player game, but I think perfectly possible. In PvE it won't make much difference to the rest of us and of course there can be none in PvP.

Selstad

Are some fights close to or simply impossible? For certain classes I would say they are. Let me take an example from a Sorcerer perspective; storm antronachs. Mind these are the veteran rank ones. They are so far as I've tried, close to impossible due to 2 mechanics; immune to CC and immune to knockdown.

Why is this an issue? Because as a sorcerer, I run in 7 light armour which gives me about as much chance to mitigate physical attacks as a mosquito have in traversing wind at hurricane speed. And since all his attacks are physical, mitigation is out of the question.

"Ah" you say "but you have so many ways to play, some aren't possible to do without a certain setup". To that I answer "A good game design is to take away those chances and grant everyone the equal chance to succeed based on their mastering of their class rather than putting on the right armour".

I can't keep them at bay, I can't have my pets tank it (my Clanfear is currently hiding in the bushes when he sees I'm close to a storm antronach), and I can't mitigate them. My tools are pretty much useless as they revolve around dodging, keeping the monsters at bay until I can finish them of. I can't burn them down as they have a whole heap of HP and I have about as much magica to spend as I have noddles in my purse. So I empty my entire magica pool, the result is about 8% health is gone. Wupdi do. And that is about the part where I die. No magica, no CC, no knockdown, a clanfear running to the nearest bushes and a sorcerer that has about 2 seconds left to live.

Yes, some quests are incredibly unbalanced for certain class setups. I have yet another quest that forces me to kill frost antronachs and storm antronachs. After some dying, I managed to find a solution to the frost one, but I have yet to find a viable solution to the storm one.

What should be done? Nerf? No. But make it so the tools given are not rendered inert when you come to a certain part. I don't mind at all the difficulty, I love that not everything is simple, what I can't stand however is that some things are impossible, not due to the difficulty but because of game mechanics. "Hey look, you're going to fight this huge monster, it has a massive health pool and you have to fight it with this comically shaped branch. Your other tools? Meh, we have rendered them inert, just use the branch".

That is how it feels at times, you are given nice toys to play with, but when it comes to some parts, your toys are thrown off and you're left with nothing.

vicNBitis

dr_zed wrote: »

Wow, your build must suck. I'm vr4 and never encountered any "hard" fight in PvE. Btw, I run a Nightblade.

You must be ranged or tank. Or you never did quests or bosses. Because some(trolls, harvesters, storm atronachs, bone lords/colossuses) are, by any definition, hard for stealthers. And it's mainly due to the ineptness of Zenimax and not the players. In case you were wondering.

methjester

vicNBitis wrote: »

dr_zed wrote: »

Wow, your build must suck. I'm vr4 and never encountered any "hard" fight in PvE. Btw, I run a Nightblade.

You must be ranged or tank. Or you never did quests or bosses. Because some(trolls, harvesters, storm atronachs, bone lords/colossuses) are, by any definition, hard for stealthers. And it's mainly due to the ineptness of Zenimax and not the players. In case you were wondering.

Or, he's just flat out lying. People do that. Unless you're one of those guys who cap level in the first few days, I'm not going to believe anything they have to say.

dracobains_ESO

Wargasmo wrote: »

It's not a generational thing. Rather, it's whether you fall in the DAoC camp or the Everquest camp. PVE in this game was made for the EQ camp's model and PvP tried to capture DAoC undertones. Unfortunately, this attracted a disparate group of players who do not necessarily want the same thing. I like the PvE so far in this game. I despise open world pvp as a concept. Too often, it degenerates into zergs mindlessly spamming skills at each other with no thought to skill. While I would prefer a numbers limited battleground/arena setup for PvP, I recognize that the players who long for DAoC will never give up the ghost regarding open world pvp. That's fine I guess, and I'm more than happy to zerg with you every once in a while regardless of whether or not I think it's the way pvp should be done.

In any case, I digress. The point was that people of our generation (and since you played DAoC while I was probably playing EQ, I'm thinking we're of the same generation) also are split between whether we think pve raiding, grouping, and even leveling should have inherent difficulty or not.

Well I started MMOs with UO and EQ1 then moved to DAOC once it was released. And I enjoyed all 3 immensely. Nobody is ever going to agree with every game element or what constitutes a good game but unless a gaming company is looking at a niche market then they should try and target the broadest range. None of the players I have been gaming with for over a decade enjoy this PVE but not always for the same reason. The PVP is highly desired because it has been so lacking in the gaming world for a long time. But there is no reason they could not implement arenas and such. I know of nobody opposed to this and DAOC had them as well.

The limited interface that is not mouse driven and the mob AI make this feel more like a console FPS to me. It doesn't reward smart thinking as much as it rewards fast fingers. Sure they try and put in some puzzle quests which I have found interesting at times. I appreciate that effort but it was not always well executed. I prefer a more cerebral questing or powerful story driven (SWTOR) over fast acting gameplay. The focus on nearly all PVE fighting is on fast reaction times often with multiple targets. Hey, it does have a fresh feel to it but I just don't enjoy it nor have I met anyone I play with who enjoys it. My small guild of 30ish friends who began this game together has diminished to a mere handful who still log on. It is really that simple. The population has already diminished a significant degree and if no compromise can occur it will continue down that path. I have no desire to diminish anyone's enjoyment as I have said repeatedly. I think it is great you guys love this aspect. However, a good portion of players really don't like it and if some solution isn't found we will eventually find more enjoyable gaming experiences. I would prefer to stay here but we all play for enjoyment. That is a universal fact.

Evilbeauty

I said tjis earlier and I'm just going to say it again. Do tthe people who are crying that it's to hard even bother trying different spells/specs/weapons? Or try different strategies, different weapons, gear etc.

I'm by far no elitist best player in the world but I'm just mind boggled that people are saying any solo content was hard during1-50. I hate to see how you tackle veteran content.

Only boss I ever had problems with was the first harvester, but I quickly learned that I had to kill the orbs before they reached it.

I only just hit veteran and are now vr3 with only about 4 hours play time at vr level.

People are too damn lazy to even google some strategies or research there class and see what the most effective builds are.

If you want to be stubborn and just stick with what you're doing/using then I'm sorry but nothing will help you.

AgriyaTheGrey

Bhakura wrote: »

AgriyaTheGrey wrote: »

There is a difference between a challenge that can be overcome with perseverance and skill, and a brick wall that requires perseverance and a shedload of dumb luck.

No such thing as luck in a fight, because there are no random factors, the only random factor is the player fighting the AI, if you can call it AI to begin with.
the fight didnt go well? that isnt lady fortuna pulling the strings, thats you not performing as you should.

This. ROFL. If you truly believe that all success you experience in game is entirely 100% of your own making, god help you. The actions each mob takes and where they are when they take that action may follow a set script, but how much damage they inflict with each blow will vary randomly, and that variation is by definition 'luck'. It's a computer program, not a pool table.

poodlemasterb16_ESO

I just fired up me Kajiit NB and got him killed a few times on this on semi boss. Gave my head a shake, had not played an NB is a while, and took him down without him even touching me.

Bhakura

AgriyaTheGrey wrote: »

This. ROFL. If you truly believe that all success you experience in game is entirely 100% of your own making, god help you. The actions each mob takes and where they are when they take that action may follow a set script, but how much damage they inflict with each blow will vary randomly, and that variation is by definition 'luck'. It's a computer program, not a pool table.

never seen a hit on me that first hits me for say 100 and he hits me again with the same attack that does all of a sudden 110. Even my own attacks always have the same number depending on which mob im fighting.
Im running a parser, i know, if you got hit bigger then last time you allowed something else then a basic attack to hit you, so yea, no luck, its you allowing getting hit by something you should have avoided or blocked.

If you refer to critical hits, its only natural and fair that if you have a chance to crit, so does the mob you are fighting. However, never seen a mob that makes a deadly crit on a normal attack, if the crit does kill you, then its from an attack you should have avoided or blocked, and again, your own fault.
And cant even say if i ever saw a mob critting me.

And thx but i finish my fights without some divine intervention

KraidenDove

Here is the issue. As of today in VR9 zones, I have 3 enemies hitting me in a solo dungeon for 258, 357, and 420 respectively on first hits. I have ~2500 health.

So lets do the math shall we? 1000+ damage on first attack. I am dead in 3 hits from a single group respectively without abilities. With firing protection blah blah blah, I can last maybe 10-15 seconds and kill 1 if I am lucky. Since this patch today, zone chat has been filled to the brim with requests just to be able to complete solo dungeons. It was bad enough before, with this update for npc's solo players just got the boot. If you like playing in a group, that's fine. For TES fans that like playing alone in the RPG aspect, VR zones are now impossible for 70% of the population. Not only is this not good business, but it will lose customers. My healers in guild don't want to go further into vet zones because it is just too damn hard and they have to be held along most of the way. No healers = no craglorn content. Just stating what 85% of players raged about today in zone.

(as I watched a group of 15 VR9 players wipe 5 times trying to complete a single dolem, a group of 3 trying to complete a single solo dungeon, and uncountable requests to do final zone boss as now no one can kill him on their own)

Bhakura

Intresting, european server is down atm for the patch so have to wait. Since i solo everything and this only with 1500 hp, it means i wont be able to solo anymore.
Cant wait to log in and put that to the test.

KraidenDove

^^^^^^^^^^^
Please do. Took 15 folks to do one storm atronach dolem and they wiped 8 times 5 minutes ago. Every last one of them sent in feedback and most of the zone I was in was asking how to send in feedback over the issue. NA mega server, all day. I did a kill count and the storm atronachs are now 1 shotting folks for 2.1K damage.

Syntse

I'm kinda glad of the happenings with the recent patch. It should open peoples eyes in terms of understanding how fustrating too hard content may be when it is not fun anymore. Yes game should not cater every 10 year old so they can pass it with their eyes blindfolded but at least people will know how they feel before posting all L2P comments.

Also seems some people who have been soloing this far are now forced to group and seeing the issues grouping has outside dungeons.

Garetth

Evilbeauty wrote: »

I said tjis earlier and I'm just going to say it again. Do tthe people who are crying that it's to hard even bother trying different spells/specs/weapons? Or try different strategies, different weapons, gear etc.

I'm by far no elitist best player in the world but I'm just mind boggled that people are saying any solo content was hard during1-50. I hate to see how you tackle veteran content.

Only boss I ever had problems with was the first harvester, but I quickly learned that I had to kill the orbs before they reached it.

I only just hit veteran and are now vr3 with only about 4 hours play time at vr level.

People are too damn lazy to even google some strategies or research there class and see what the most effective builds are.

If you want to be stubborn and just stick with what you're doing/using then I'm sorry but nothing will help you.

V3 in 3 hours of game play? You my friend are a lying piece of *** garbage!

Bhakura

Garetth wrote: »

V3 in 3 hours of game play? You my friend are a lying piece of *** garbage!

Not really, if you run in a raid from dungeon to dolmen to worldboss, it goes very fast. Goes even faster with mara scrolls active.

KraidenDove

So what you are saying is, if you go WoW elitist BS raiding style, you can level quickly. OMG! my eyes are now open! Dang I was doing it all wrong, I thought this was an ELDER SCROLLS GAME. Play by myself for the RPG aspect of MMO in single player content? Gosh I can't believe how dumb I was. Guess I will have to take my VR10 butt and just un sub. (Yes VR10, that got their on his own, no grouping. Takes 2 weeks constant play minimum.)

Bhakura

Anyone force you to do anything? No one ever said you HAVE to raid or use mara exp buff.
Seems like you played it how you wanted to play, whats the problem?

MichaelD

It happens with some bosses yes, but I usually find that I'm using wrong skills, since some bosses cannot be CCed I swap to burst damage and healing potions also I eat some buff-food. Then I usually defeat it. I has occured this frustration to me too but I choose to change my way of thinking and strategy than sit there and press buttons.

I'm not sure what you read on reviews of this game but it was meant to be hardcore (not that it actually is). It is not you usual tank+spank you will not 100% succeed with the same rotation/skills. Accept that and it will be more fun or quit... there are other games that you can actually take a nap during raid and not matter at all...

KraidenDove

I did play how I wanted to play to VR10. The problem is, with this hidden patch note with NPC's they aren't telling anyone about now most of my friends can't. Hell most of my guild spent the day waiting in ques for solo dungeons as they couldn't do it on their own. We have 4 VR10's in our guild. How the bloody hell are we supposed to get to Cragolorn when the majority of the players in game are struggling to get past VR2? The answer is we have to drag them the whole way until they either give up the goat or we join a specialized raid group.

This game is supposed to be a MMORPG. This patch just took a huge dump on the RPG part and made massive concessions to the players who look towards a WoW setting. Its the kind of crap that hurt SWTOR, GW2, and the list goes on and on. You can't enjoy story and immersion if you are spending 90% of your time LFG and barely surviving 2-3 person mobs.

Garetth

Bhakura wrote: »

Garetth wrote: »

V3 in 3 hours of game play? You my friend are a lying piece of *** garbage!

Not really, if you run in a raid from dungeon to dolmen to worldboss, it goes very fast. Goes even faster with mara scrolls active.

Man I would love to meet some of these elitist a-holes in person. Would be a mini lottery for me.

idk

BrassRazoo wrote: »

I just finished a very dodgy fight with a Harvester at VR7.
I have had a lot of problems with Harvesters. The 4 "balls" just spawned way too close to it and it healed back to 100% all the time.
The fight was in such a tight space it was silly.

I agree that harvesters are a challenge. Have an AoE and rotate around the harvester. By moving around the harvester you avoid their frontal cone attack most of the time. When the orbs spawn, kill them with your AoE. I usually get 2 or 3 in one attack and move to get the other two. They heal you then instead of her. Try this and once you are accustomed to it the fight is much easier.

aleister wrote: »

I'm all for a challenge. I really am. But there are far too many fights in this game that are just stupidly, ridiculously and pointlessly difficult. I want to progress, I want to enjoy the content. I do not want to spend hours retrying and dying over and over and over and over on the same fight. I'm sure the group I'm in probably doesn't know the ONE secret strategy to taking this boss down or maybe I don't know it when I'm forced into one of these asinine solo-only missions -- either way, I'm sick of it!

Balance the game. I don't care how you do it. Give the hardcore types the the "absurdly difficult" option, give them greater rewards, I don't care, but let the rest of us progress.

Probably need to be more specific. At first I thought you were talking about solo questing around the world. Then it seemed you were talking about group dungeons. For dungeons, there are guides that discuss the boss' mechanics. Group dungeons are intended to offer a challenge but once a team understands the mechanics and learns how to deal with them the dungeons become doable and with experience much easier. Some of the fights require team work from the team. In the big picture, fights require using the various skills each of us have. For dungeons, try watching some of the many videos out there. It is very helpful.

Evilbeauty

Garetth wrote: »

Evilbeauty wrote: »

I said tjis earlier and I'm just going to say it again. Do tthe people who are crying that it's to hard even bother trying different spells/specs/weapons? Or try different strategies, different weapons, gear etc.

I'm by far no elitist best player in the world but I'm just mind boggled that people are saying any solo content was hard during1-50. I hate to see how you tackle veteran content.

Only boss I ever had problems with was the first harvester, but I quickly learned that I had to kill the orbs before they reached it.

I only just hit veteran and are now vr3 with only about 4 hours play time at vr level.

People are too damn lazy to even google some strategies or research there class and see what the most effective builds are.

If you want to be stubborn and just stick with what you're doing/using then I'm sorry but nothing will help you.

V3 in 3 hours of game play? You my friend are a lying piece of *** garbage!

Actually no I am dead serious. Again if you crying people would bother to search a bit you might learn a thing or two.

I did every world boss/dolmen/public dungeon in vr1-4 zones, in just over 2 and a half hours, which got me to nearly vr3. I then did about 40 mins of the objective quest which dinged me to vr3. I haven't touched vr5 zone yet to do the point of interest there cause it's hard finding someone with a decent amount of wayshrines open.

Vr4 zone was giving me about 38kvet points per first time completion.

Evilbeauty

KraidenDove wrote: »

So what you are saying is, if you go WoW elitist BS raiding style, you can level quickly. OMG! my eyes are now open! Dang I was doing it all wrong, I thought this was an ELDER SCROLLS GAME. Play by myself for the RPG aspect of MMO in single player content? Gosh I can't believe how dumb I was. Guess I will have to take my VR10 butt and just un sub. (Yes VR10, that got their on his own, no grouping. Takes 2 weeks constant play minimum.)

And what exactly are you trying to prove? If you want to take two weeks to ding to vr10 thats your problem.

And your argument about RPG aspect is wrong, considering you are playing for a different faction now and basically are a traitor.

Also if you haven't realised vr content is meant to be done in a group. If you want to be a no friend loner and level solo theb kudos to you. Gl @ claghorn.

Selstad

I think people are missing the point here. It's not a crying about things being hard, most of us are here because we at one stage played WoW and got bored of how easy that was. So no, it's not about things being hard.

It's about quests being unbalanced to the point of impossible. I don't think anyone who've not tried dealing with a storm antronach will know what's going on, especially on the later levels. Or dealing with a harvester on your own. It's not about content being hard, it's about the tools given are rendered inert or useless.

Lets take a Harvester per example. At VR10 here (Reaper's March main quest line). Now she has 3 abilities that she seems to be fond of using, one is an AoE that she sends out in a frontal cone that does massive damage when you're hit, so got to avoid that. Then she has a strangling thing that pretty much eats up your HP. And to top it all, she summons no less than 4 healing orbs, each restoring 25% of her HP. And here comes the fun part of the whole fight; she can throw the AoE cone, strangle you and summon the healing things within 5-8 seconds. Lets sprinkle this whole little fight with ESO's own little special ability delay, and you're having some fun.

In another zone there's a Storm antronach elite camp. I teamed up with 3 other players, making us a group of 4. I took up the mantle of healing. We charged in, I buffed them up, the antronach did an AoE attack, everyone died. 1 attack, with restoration staff buff up. Wonderful, reset, try again. In the end it took us 4 players 10 minutes of dying and a whole lot of swearing to get that 1 elite storm antronach down.

As I've said, it's not about the game being hard, it's about your tools given are insufficient to overcome the challenge ahead. Storm antronachs per example are immune to CC and knockdowns, meaning that for most classes, it would be an impossible task due to most builds rely on some sort of knockback or CC just to survive long enough. Remove that and combine it with a truck coming towards you at full speed, and you're in for a very bad day. I don't think people at lower level VR content can realize this, you have to be around max VR level to actually see this point.

Bhakura

Selstad wrote: »

the antronach did an AoE attack, everyone died.

thats pretty strange, fought lots of storm atronachs, died on them aswell, when i was still figuring their attacks out, once i did, never died again, and sure as hell not of aoe.
Agreed havent fought one at vr10, but did fight them well halfway through vr levels, several times. But the mechanic is exactly the same no matter what level. So tell me how it is that 4 people instantly die on the first aoe, and i dont?
I have no doubt i would too ... if i allow it to hit me, and once again, if you die on aoes, special attacks or what not is ENTIRELY your fault.
i sure hope youre not planning on doing Craglorn if you havent even learned the skill rotation of a basic creature like a storm atronach. You are vr10 for crying out loud, first time you fight one?

the only thing i fear on storm atronachs is their attackspeed buff when they are close to death, thats probably the harshest thing in entire game.

Wargasmo

Cleared all world bosses, dolmen, and the pub dungeon in the VR10 zone with a group of 4-6 last night. Breezed through it. Also did all the solo dungeons ... solo. Died a few times at first before I noticed the buff, swapped some skills around to maintain sustainability and everything is good again. I will say, though, that wisp mother solo dungeon boss is pretty nasty with the new buff. FYI I play a Templar, so no, I'm not OP facerolling stuff.

So... as much as I'm expecting VR content to be nerfed back into ez-mode soloable content, it is my hope that Zenimax comes back with just 3 words: WORKING AS INTENDED.