ESO PvP is Finished: Home of the Vets

Thechemicals

They are using teamspeak and are organized. They have certain techniques like "Jim activate support skills" rest of group charge to gate "Diana, your on healing" and "Bilbo and Mutumbo you gank/reveal any hiders.

If you arent on some kind of voice in a guild with at least 10 active players and have at least 2-3 veterans, you will always think everything is OP. However, there are 2 guilds in particular in this game that have done some pretty abusive things to remain top everything. Same zerg guild from most mmos like aoc.

Killswitche

The real question is how much can you bench?

cjtignub17_ESO

Just fyi with aoe grinding it takes 36 hours to hit vr levels.... so go grind

In all mmos higher level has advantage just the mmo structure

chris.carr08b16_ESO

*** vets i slay them like turkey on my very christmas dinner

Cydone

driosketch wrote: »

Cydone wrote: »

beravinprb19_ESO wrote: »

Censorious wrote: »

Almost the definition of a QQ thread.

If you don't like being 1-shotted by a toon 30 levels above you, go play WoW.

Oh, wait...

Maybe I'm in the minority here, but... I think getting one shot, in a PvP game, is a stupid thing regardless of the circumstances in which it happened. Getting one shot effectively means you can't play the game. Telling people to go PvE and level is not exactly the best way to attract more PvP players. And trust me, with how empty all the campaigns are, attracting more PvP players should be a priority. At least, thats how I see it.

If you are 30 levels below the player that killed you, then yes, you should get one shotted, or damn close to it. And there are plenty of ppl in the campaigns, especially in the first one, wabbajack, skull crusher and a couple others. The main reason that there aren't more ppl in them is because of the difficulty in leveling in the PvP zone. During the beta's, there were literally TONS of ppl pvping. Almost EVERY campaign was full for all 3 factions. It was close to the same right when early access started. THEN, they nerfed the repeatable kill 20 players quest to being a once a day mission. This is exactly when most of the campaigns saw a major lose in population. The repeatable quest kept more ppl pvping because it offered decent xp/gold/ap and was relatively easy to complete. I would wager that if ZOS put back the ability to repeat that particular quest, the pvp population on every campaign would jump up, by a LOT.

During the last beta weekend only four campaigns were full, three balanced and the fourth somehow became all AD.

Wolfaen wrote: »

ESO PvP is not finished.. The biggest problem I see here is that the Upleveled bonuses are too low for those 10-49 so they are far too weak compared to VR players. This is going to discourage lower level people to play PvP because they are tired of getting rolled over and over without having a chance and having to spend 5 minutes running back. They are sticking with it for now because it is new and fresh, but more and more of them will not come back if this continues. It is going to get old quickly for lower levels and we will see a vast decline in Cyrodiil population because of this. Even if more and more people are getting level 50, I don't see the population in Cyrodiil ever being able to recover from this unless there are drastic changes to the balance.

You guys may say this game wasn't meant to be balanced, but when it comes down to it, people will only stay with a game for PvP if it is balanced. I love TES games and PvP so I really want TESO to succeed, but this is not a good start. I forsee a vast number of people getting discouraged and not returning to PvP because of this. And guess what? The less people there are in a campaign the more a zerg is going to be encouraged and I for one do not want this game to turn into GW2 WvW zerging to the point where there is just one zerg running around from each faction.

As I have stated before I still think VR players should have an advantage, but I think it is too large of an advantage in its current state.

Totally agree with this. Two things discourage players from spending time in PvP. One is population imbalanced. The other is low level players realizing they can't compete in Cyrodiil sub 50 and returning to PvE. I've seen both during the betas. I see both now.

To the bolded part, that's why I said almost. And the ones that weren't capped had a very good population, with like 2 being the exception and having a VERY low pop. There were also I think 4 more available campaigns in the beta than there are on live. Which really tells you something about how that one quest affected the pvp population. Because it WAS almost similar when the game launched, right up until they nerfed that repeatable kill 20 quest.

TheGrandAlliance

Censorious wrote: »

Almost the definition of a QQ thread.

If you don't like being 1-shotted by a toon 30 levels above you, go play WoW.

Oh, wait...

Well it appers you must play WoW because your reading skills are /epicfail.

This thread of MINE at least (other posters may vary) has NOTHING TO DO WITH LVL DIFFERENCES. Of course... if you actually read at least some of the OP you would know that.

TheGrandAlliance

Yasha wrote: »

Its not that I didn't understand what you were trying to say, it is that I do not agree that those things were ever meant to be "fail safe mechanics".

They only seemed that way because no one was at a high level at launch.

The pvp in this game is what it is. Higher levels will crush lower levels. Lower levels can still contribute through scouting, siege and, shear weight of numbers. There is no pretence of balance.

Again... what I mean by "balance" is the balance of zerg vs not-zerg, and Defense of NPC's vs Offense of players. This has nothing to do with lvl balance... rather combat balance.

Assuming 100% of players are the same lvl: With vet's abilities the battlefield strategy of "use seige to break up zergs" or "NPCs should be able to hold back solo players" goes away when VR are involved. 1. Seige is useless and 2. Resources (and even keeps) can be soloed.

Do you want a single VR10 owning the entire map? I didn't think so.

Cydone

TheGrandAlliance wrote: »

Yasha wrote: »

Its not that I didn't understand what you were trying to say, it is that I do not agree that those things were ever meant to be "fail safe mechanics".

They only seemed that way because no one was at a high level at launch.

The pvp in this game is what it is. Higher levels will crush lower levels. Lower levels can still contribute through scouting, siege and, shear weight of numbers. There is no pretence of balance.

Again... what I mean by "balance" is the balance of zerg vs not-zerg, and Defense of NPC's vs Offense of players. This has nothing to do with lvl balance... rather combat balance.

Assuming 100% of players are the same lvl: With vet's abilities the battlefield strategy of "use seige to break up zergs" or "NPCs should be able to hold back solo players" goes away when VR are involved. 1. Seige is useless and 2. Resources (and even keeps) can be soloed.

Do you want a single VR10 owning the entire map? I didn't think so.

Wow, what a knee jerk, propaganda reaction there bud. Congratz, you are Mr. Republican 2014!

All jokes aside, yes siege weapons should be doing more damage to VR players. NPC's will NEVER be balanced to the lvl of what most players are. Simply because your 100% argument will NEVER happen, unless this game dies out VERY quickly with only like 15k ppl playing.

Siege equipment is expected to hurt all lvl's of players, though it doesn't do much against a couple of VR10's with a healer. THIS is a potentially game breaking mechanic for PvP. Especially since the battlefield is open to all players lvl 10 and up. A decent group of VR10's, no matter how much siege equipment, could take a keep simply because the damage doesn't effect them in the same way as it does say a lvl 40 player.

NPC balancing within the PvP zone will NEVER happen so long as there are ppl that aren't lvl 50 yet and, as I said, 100% of the population will NEVER ALL be VR10, unless the game pretty much dies. So, the NPC's should be balanced with the entirety of the PvP community in mind. Having veteran rank NPC's will essentially mean that lower level players(below lvl 48) can never group up and take a keep simply because the damage of the npc's would be far too great. That would be a game breaking mechanic for them.

SO, yes to increased damage vs VR5+ players, cause they still hurt like a son-of-a-gun below VR5.....and NO to increased NPC difficulty.

drwoody44b14_ESO

TheGrandAlliance wrote: »

Cydone wrote: »

There should be NO way for someone, that hasn't invested the time into progressing their character, to be able to have the same survivability or stats or character/profession skills as someone that has. If you can't find the time to invest in the game because of a job or kids or a wife or w/e, you shouldn't be rewarded on the same level or close to it when compared to someone else who can find the time to invest into the game. Period

Again... this post has nothing to do with the point of my thread. This situation of seige/NPCs being worthless and not able to keep "the balance" exists even if 100% of player population is VR10 Legendary Gear.

So suggest ZOS buff siege and guards.


/thread

beravinprb19_ESO

drwoody44b14_ESO wrote: »

TheGrandAlliance wrote: »

Cydone wrote: »

There should be NO way for someone, that hasn't invested the time into progressing their character, to be able to have the same survivability or stats or character/profession skills as someone that has. If you can't find the time to invest in the game because of a job or kids or a wife or w/e, you shouldn't be rewarded on the same level or close to it when compared to someone else who can find the time to invest into the game. Period

Again... this post has nothing to do with the point of my thread. This situation of seige/NPCs being worthless and not able to keep "the balance" exists even if 100% of player population is VR10 Legendary Gear.

So suggest ZOS buff siege and guards.


/thread

Congratulations, you just broke the game for all the low population servers out there. Some servers have enough trouble getting groups together to take on farms and mines, let alone keeps. Population issues need to be addressed before you look at siege and guards.

SwampRaider

sleepspasmnub18_ESO wrote: »

Zoliru wrote: »

sleepspasmnub18_ESO wrote: »

There is enough whining in the PVP section that if you put it all together you could piece out the works of Shakespeare.

You are not supposed to be able to kill a VR at level 12 or whatever level you are that believes you should be able to compete 1v1 with someone who's leagues above you in gear and skill points. It is possible to kill them, if they are terrible and you yourself aren't just a meat bag with a noggin.

The balance that you say existed in PVP the first week was when 90% of people were not veteran rank and everyone was relying on the buff to 50 and thus similiar. When you get above 50 you don't rely on that any longer and thus grow stronger that the insta 50s (some, some builds are OP even pre 50). I'm kinda upset at myself for even trying to explain this to someone who thinks they are entitled to so much. You kids need to go back to WoW with your hello kitty brackets.

my lvl36 nightblade just got INSTANT killed by a sorcerer from nowhere ( did not saw anyone anywhere even after death ) with 1 single ability......

think abbout that a litle........

My lvl 43 Nightblade gets one shot by a Vet nightblade coming out of stealth. What's your point?

My VR3 Templar with 2700 hp and 1000 armor gets one shot out of stealth by a level 10 Nightblade. Whats your point?

crowfl56

my lord, VR10 and the game is 2 weeks old, come on, either you spend way way to much time in game and/or you exploited and should be banned, doh get a real life.

Bunk

git gud

345zac_ESO

Zintair wrote: »

VR Ranks aren't the problem. Siege still hurts me at VR 10.

There are other SERIOUS issues that at exacerbated at VR10.

DK Dragon Standard + Block. Hits ridiculously hard and is very long. It costs VERY little compared to other Ultimates.

Let's look at Nova which was nerfed. Costs 275-300 Ultimate. Mitigates by 30% and hits for barely anything anymore. Has a stun synergy which is nice but still doesn't do the damage it should for the cost.

Standard cost 200 Ultimate and hits MUCH harder and lasts MUCH longer and has a synergy as well.

Stamina Builds.

All DKs need to do is use a Shield and build for Stmaina.. bash bash bash. Character is dead. Stamina abilities in general are scaling REALLY high.


These need to be looked into.

If you were on the dk side of things, You wouldn't want this nefed...

eol

Surely folks realize that the gap between low levels and VR will shrink as people level up? Now if the VR players can maintain that gap by adding VR ranks, then yes indeed the game does have major pvp balance problems. But we are only 3 weeks in, its way too early to assume that. In pre-ToA DAoC the gap between players shrank at lvl 50 and shrank even more once players had a reasonable amount of pvp realm points to buy the key pvp skills. I imagine it will be that way in this game also, it would be financial suicide for the developers not to make that happen.

firstdecan

I've read this whole thread, I'd like to add my two cents in (it'll be 2 dollars by the time I'm finished.

1 - 80% of this thread has nothing to do with the original post. The poster claims the environment in PvP (siege weapons and NPCs) are too underpowered to keep VR10s in check. I somewhat agree, and I'll go into detail later in this post. Undefended resources (Mine \ Farm \ Lumber) should need a group of 4-6 to take, undefended keeps should need 6-10 (I think these are the target numbers the devs were shooting for). If a single VR10 can take a resource and \ or keep, the environment in PvP (Siege and NPCs) is underpowered.

2 - Veterans characters will always be more powerful, but it isn't just the veteran status that's doing it. They have more attribute points to boost Magica \ Health \ Stamina, and more passives to augment their characters. Most of all, the current Vets are MMO obsessed, picking apart the game mechanics, and min \ maxing their toons. They are making sure the guys manning the battering rams have +1000 resistance to fire, so burning oil doesn't affect them. They are using team speak to coordinate tactics. They are learning the game and coordinating within it in a way that the casual player cannot compete with.

3 - Casual players are the bread and butter of any game. These are the post college people with jobs and lives that actually make money, and are willing to spend it on this environment so this environment can be a good place to play. If casual players are not welcome in a particular aspect of this game, expect the game to fail. Those elitists who feel that their trivial accomplishments in a fantasy world make them special will soon realize that without the financial support of the casual player, their fantasy world will no longer exist.

For example, I read the thread about how the preauthorization fee was causing some players financial burdens. If $15.00 is a financial burden to you, you shouldn't be spending your time playing video games or buying a $400.00 video card. I love PC games, but I am a casual player because I will only have 8-10 hours a week to play. I'm more than willing to pay my sub for content, I love the PvE, and I've enjoyed the PvP. If the PvP devolves into a bunch of kids running around the streets of Cyrodiil killing anyone who wants to play before they have a chance to leave the keep, I'll stop paying my sub. I can move to a bad neighborhood and get that experience in real life. When enough people like me stop paying their sub, the game becomes freemium, and I guarantee you I WILL spend hundreds of dollars to buy a good toon just to *** off the kids who can't. I would rather play through the game and have fun, but I'm an adult, and trust me, I know how *the game* is really played.

My opinions how to improve things

1 - Make the game mechanics more accessible, either in game or through the website. The essence of any competition is an equal set of rules, and an equal understanding of those rules. Any two sports teams who come together know the rules of the game, the only thing unequal is the skill of the players.

2 - Equalize and randomize the environmental factors in PvP a bit more. There seems to be a large focus on "fire" as the extra ability for siege weapons. Make it so that you can have "Freezing Rain" and "Shocking Falls" in addition to the burning oil to dump on people and that will make it harder for Vets to zerg a keep. Likewise, if the NPC defenders had more variety in the types of attacks they use, Vet players would have a harder time bolstering themselves against a limited series of predetermined defenses. Resources are defended by two healer NPCs, two dragon knight NPCs, and a mage in a tower. Again, the focus is on fire with some lighting support from the mage. If those DK NPCs randomly had lighting \ ice abilities, it would be harder to bolster a predetermined defense against them.

3 - Remove the ability of Vets to "ignore" affects like Snares and Holds. It will be harder for Vets to dominate the field if the abilities they're using on lower ranked players will also work on those vets. It will also allow casual players to support Vets on their alliance while keeping them less powered then the Vets on the other alliance.

4 - Create better in game collaboration tools. There should be a "PvP guild" that all members of an alliance are joined to by default, so all members of that alliance can collaborate. There should also be a voice chat option in the game, typing out commands in chat during a battle is just a formula for death. The grouping system is also too limited. There should be a way to establish a command hierarchy. If you could establish 3 or 4 tiers of command, with the ability to limit chat so you can only communicate between two of those levels, you'd have a more realistic grouping system for the hierarchy that all militaries eventually fall into (this prevents the random idiot from shouting orders contradicting the people who are actually strategizing).

LadyChaos

@firstdecan‌

There should also be a voice chat option in the game, typing out commands in chat during a battle is just a formula for death.

They said in prelaunce interview this feature is planned, but not for launch.

stylernaku

The veteran's I have to admit are now massing at an incredible rate. It was going to happen of course but it's getting now to be like facing an army of terminators. I watched 5 vet's descend upon a lumber yard and the 20 ish people there trying to defend it were torn apart so fast it was incredible.

I'm not sure how you'd balance this to be honest, but well something needs adjusting. I'm all for bonuses after hard work, but well, the notion of joining pvp before say lvl 40 is becoming more and more less appealing.

The last week it didn't seem so bad but today, my god.

TheGrandAlliance

Cydone wrote: »

NPC balancing within the PvP zone will NEVER happen so long as there are ppl that aren't lvl 50 yet and, as I said, 100% of the population will NEVER ALL be VR10, unless the game pretty much dies. So, the NPC's should be balanced with the entirety of the PvP community in mind. Having veteran rank NPC's will essentially mean that lower level players(below lvl 48) can never group up and take a keep simply because the damage of the npc's would be far too great. That would be a game breaking mechanic for them.

SO, yes to increased damage vs VR5+ players, cause they still hurt like a son-of-a-gun below VR5.....and NO to increased NPC difficulty.

The solution, if techincally possible, is to have NPCs hit VR10's differently then lvl 10s. This would nerf VR10 but still allow lvl 10s to engage. Thus a mixed enviroment can still exist.

TheGrandAlliance

@firstdecan‌

Thanks for the post. Most useful information...

I have edited the first post to make clear what should be done to the game to fix the overall problem.

AngelofAwe

VRs aren't as OP as you make it sound. Yes they are way more powerful than players below 50, but it's not like "siege doesn't hurt them" and "they can't be killed by non-vets".

What you have encountered sounds like the organized groups of vets using broken skills in synergy.
Some of those VR10 groups, apart from being organized and using voice chat run around with a raid of 10-20 people using a few basic skills.
Impulse for AoE damage, immovable for CC immunity and armor/spell resistance buffs through the roof, barrier ultimate that gives their group a huuuge damage shield which makes it seem like they take no damage and some healing ability like mutagen.

These abilities together allows them to simply run through huge masses of enemies and AoE them to death over and over again.

There are other broken abilities too, like bolt escape. while it may be decently balanced on a 50- character it gets OP as ... in the vet ranks when a sorc can use it 7-8 times to escape any situation.
Today I fought a VR10 sorcerer emperor with bolt escape... Do I even have to explain what that was like? he bolt escaped 10 times in behind a rock, 1 shot a vet player with the soul magic ultimate, threw a couple of crystal shards and then bolt escaped 10 times again...
Shield bash had no effect on him while teleporting for some reason, it just wouldn't knock him down... and chaining him didn't work either, he just kept teleporting without getting pulled back.

CheesyDaedra

Make campaigns where Veteran players are separated from non-vet ones, seriously. Not all of us have had the time to grind, and some of us like to play PvE and then some PvP.

Cydone

CheesusChrist95 wrote: »

Make campaigns where Veteran players are separated from non-vet ones, seriously. Not all of us have had the time to grind, and some of us like to play PvE and then some PvP.

I would be for this is they made it so that if you are a Veteran Rank player, you can still enter the 49 and below zone. BUT, that veteran rank player would be scaled down to a 49 with matching stats.

lao

CheesusChrist95 wrote: »

Make campaigns where Veteran players are separated from non-vet ones, seriously. Not all of us have had the time to grind, and some of us like to play PvE and then some PvP.

and then you who doesnt wanna spend as much time on pvp as the real PvPers come here and whine that its not fair and that u should be able to kill these ppl who spend much more time into that aspect of the game.

you sir, are delusional.

TheGrandAlliance

I just saw on my server (EU Dawnbreaker) a blue zerg completly ram right into the front gate/door without a scratch. Oils everywhere. We had best guild there and emp (who was deposed). Doesn't matter if we were all VR10s the result would be the same.

Untill this game is fixed... PvP is finished. No Contest. Just "who has the bigger vet zerg online" will win. The seige there designed to stop the zergs from zerging the front door? Worthless.

ESO PvP==/epicfail

Harming

TheGrandAlliance wrote: »

I just saw on my server (EU Dawnbreaker) a blue zerg completly ram right into the front gate/door without a scratch. Oils everywhere. We had best guild there and emp (who was deposed). Doesn't matter if we were all VR10s the result would be the same.

Untill this game is fixed... PvP is finished. No Contest. Just "who has the bigger vet zerg online" will win. The seige there designed to stop the zergs from zerging the front door? Worthless.

ESO PvP==/epicfail

Try breaking away from the Zerg. Solo hunt or small group if the big fight isn't going your way.
This games travel mechanics means 5 groups of 10 can cover way more ground and keeps than one group of 50.
The Zerg is just the fall back strategy for those without good leadership or solo play.

~ Harming

TheGrandAlliance

Harming wrote: »

Try breaking away from the Zerg. Solo hunt or small group if the big fight isn't going your way.
This games travel mechanics means 5 groups of 10 can cover way more ground and keeps than one group of 50.
The Zerg is just the fall back strategy for those without good leadership or solo play.

~ Harming

No I am talking about seige defense situation... was holding BRK (last of the emperor keeps). There was no option other then to hit them from above. Would help if seige did anything though...

Jackiepvp

TheGrandAlliance wrote: »

I just saw on my server (EU Dawnbreaker) a blue zerg completly ram right into the front gate/door without a scratch. Oils everywhere. We had best guild there and emp (who was deposed). Doesn't matter if we were all VR10s the result would be the same.

Untill this game is fixed... PvP is finished. No Contest. Just "who has the bigger vet zerg online" will win. The seige there designed to stop the zergs from zerging the front door? Worthless.

ESO PvP==/epicfail

Having a hard time believing this. If you had a guild on your side as well as siege and the guild actually is good, then there is absolutely no reason why you cannot wipe the opponent.

I have a question, are you vr10 yourself? Do you know what the difference between vr1 and vr10 is in terms of power? We are talking something like 10% stats. The set bonuses which vr10s can wear can be worn by lower vr ranks as well, nothing is exclusive to vr10. Consumables also do not go any higher than vr5. Obviously there is no difference in stat points or morphs since neither of those are unique to vr10 players, I was full build by around vr2.

Yes there is an advantage. But the advantage is hardly immortality to everything in the game, immortality comes from the right builds and team play, arguably broken but not related to being vr10.

Cydone

Jackiepvp wrote: »

TheGrandAlliance wrote: »

I just saw on my server (EU Dawnbreaker) a blue zerg completly ram right into the front gate/door without a scratch. Oils everywhere. We had best guild there and emp (who was deposed). Doesn't matter if we were all VR10s the result would be the same.

Untill this game is fixed... PvP is finished. No Contest. Just "who has the bigger vet zerg online" will win. The seige there designed to stop the zergs from zerging the front door? Worthless.

ESO PvP==/epicfail

Having a hard time believing this. If you had a guild on your side as well as siege and the guild actually is good, then there is absolutely no reason why you cannot wipe the opponent.

I have a question, are you vr10 yourself? Do you know what the difference between vr1 and vr10 is in terms of power? We are talking something like 10% stats. The set bonuses which vr10s can wear can be worn by lower vr ranks as well, nothing is exclusive to vr10. Consumables also do not go any higher than vr5. Obviously there is no difference in stat points or morphs since neither of those are unique to vr10 players, I was full build by around vr2.

Yes there is an advantage. But the advantage is hardly immortality to everything in the game, immortality comes from the right builds and team play, arguably broken but not related to being vr10.

You are speaking logic and reasoning. This is a foreign language to TheGrandAlliance and many others.

skarvika

Having gone against vets and been grouped with many vets, I will agree to this. It has definitely taken a lot of the fun out of pvp. I've not been playing much lately because of it. I'm clearly not a bad pvper because I'm in the top 20 for my faction, but I feel like I'm basically just cannon fodder and am completely useless to my team now because if they're a veteran, what use would they have for me when they can kill everything on their own? It's no fun.