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ESO PvP is Finished: Home of the Vets
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IceDread✭✭✭@IceDread, It seems to me that you've chosen wrong type of game to play. It just doesn't suits your description of a game with competitive PvP. In MMORPG it doesn't supposed to work the same way as DotA or WoT.
According to you. There are several people who do not agree with you have several that does.
If you were talking about pve then I could understand you.
However, we are talking about pvp.
By the way, if you've played WoT then I will try to beat you on your own battlefield.Investing time in the game should make you a better player. However, from having played world of tanks for a long time, I know that is not the case. Some people learn and get better, some despite having put in a lot of time into the game, does not learn much at all.
I used to play wot, I was no unicum, accroding to noobmeter I was excellent, wanted to have too much fun for that, boring to camp and not take the risky moves, for me it was a balance between wanting to perform or have fun that often tipped over towards what I find fun, I hear they might introduce tier 10 light tanks, that might make the game interesting again.
I was also upset with how wot does random battles, after you get the hang of how it works and become good at it, it's not fun to face bad (useless) players and nether fun to have them on your side. You can have the same tank as them, but since your playing it, be worth 4 of them or more. They lacked skill based matchmaking.
What happens when you start to level a new tank line in WoT?So if you reroll a new char and go to pvp you have to avoid 1vs1, sounds like a good system..
Sometimes you will be put into lvl 6 fight on your lvl 4 tank. In that fight you can get into situation where you have to face an enemy whose frontal armor can't be effectivly penetrated by your gun (because it is just have strictly bad penetration, or because you didn't put enough time into that game to earn a new one) while he will be capable of one-shoting you.
Say... Soviet Heavy Tank KV-1S. He is 2 levels ahead because you have rerolled (or you've just started to play).
Your actions?
1) Die from a single shot
2) Go the other way (avoid 1v1 - what you've called a bad design)
3) Try to swarm him with assistance of other players, maybe same lvl 4 as you
(that's how you should deal with VR players in ESO - the thing we all talking about)
Some of you are still would be one-shoted.
This is a source of much complaints, and to some extent, I simply agree. However, usually you can still contribute to your team a lot by scouting, flanking supporting others. But I would have preferred random battles to have the option of not having the +-2 tiers.
All thou, if you are good, then you will beat a less good tank driver even if your at a disadvantage.And in WoT you are running into that situation time to time, UNTIL....... YOU ARE 10 LVL (MAX)! When you become max lvl in WoT you stand at the head of the food chain. You only get put into a fight where enemies are same lvl 10 OR... LESS! And those who are less are obviously weaker and are killable 1v1 100% time (unless you have Alzheimer disease).
There are team battles, so you do not have to go up to max lvl. In team battles, you can have tier 8 and less only.
However, if you are a tier 8 medium / light or tier 9 (anything) facing tier 10 tanks, usually you can perform and tip the battle to your favor if you as a person is a good player. It's sorta fun to outperform the higher tier tanks and beat them.
But I agree, it should be optional if you want the random +- in tiers or not.So the design is the same! It is just like ESO! It rewards players that have put more time into that game!
Why do you call WoT a good game then?
It forces you to get to max lvl to avoid such disbalances. And when you get to lvl 7-8 you find out that leveling is TERRIBLY SLOW - much slower than through questing in ESO!
Fast answer, no. It depends on if it's reasonable to expect a player to reach max lvl / gear / vr lvl and not struggle with it. For instance, in wot, I have ~17 max tier tanks, lvl 10. So for each ~1.2k battles or something I've done, I have a maxed tank. So I'd say it's fairly easy to max out.
I can not yet give that opinion about eso, because I simply do not know. Estimate that you play ~3h each evening in the week, how long would it take me to get to max lvl? And how long would it after that take to reach vr10? From my perspective this is important. If your opponents has a handicap, making it easier for them to beat me, I do not want that time period to be too long, because that will be frustrating.
I would then of course try and find a fun mature guild and do focused pvp, that's the only option, and I think it would be fun, but I do not enjoy a handicap system.Why they did it in a such way? Because they want you to pay money for Premium Account!
While that is standard practice for F2P game, does it makes it a good game design?
You lvl faster in wot with premium, but you get no ingame bonus against other players.
Advantages should only apply in pve.And the difference is that ESO offers you to avoid painfull leveling in PvP under such circumstances. It has PvE for that, full of wonderful stories and exploration.
On the other hand, I can in wot take a tier 3 tank and I will not face tier 10 tanks. You do not have that option as it is now in eso.Call it a handicap or not - designers have made some competition rules (VR players are stronger than lowlevels). Actually, these rules are much more favorable towards your position than they were in most MMORPGs I've played - lvl 10-49 players are on same power level.
Most players tend to ignore imbalance on lower lvls because of the difficulties for the devs to balance it, as do I. However, on max lvl it's important to me.You had opportunity to learn those rules before you've paid for the game (Beta-testing period).
You had opportunity to get refunded for some time after buying the game (depends on your country).
BUT YOU'VE STAYED. You didn't liked the rules you was offered, but you've stayed.
I did, I still believe this game is better than any other mmo out there, or I hope it will become, the vampire bug/exploit and other bugs if not fixed will make people leave.Now what? You are asking to change the rules because you personally don't like it!
I'm not alone in this view. If not changed, I'll just have to suffer throu that period. I actually expect it not to change, but if it can be improved upon then that would be great.It is like to start doing sports without athletic training, without exercising, without effort to be competitive and then blame other sportsman for all the time and work they have put into development of their bodies. Aren't you the one who are asking for a handicap?
Your wrong.
First, depending on how good you are, you play in different leages against those opponents in many sports, like football, icehockey etc.
Then, on top of that, you do not get to use all the equipment. It's like you have to play without shoes because you've not spent enough time.
What's been done here is not related to sports. The concept you want is the new players to face elit players and you want to remove their shoes and other equipment they need and put them in the same ring.If are frustrated when you aren't competitive in sports and you have no time to do sports at that level, why then to do it at all?
Your again, wrong. Just admit it.
You know there are leagues in sport and you know they all get the same equipment. This is the precise opposite of what you want but somehow your trying to twist how most sports work into something fitting what you want but it is fail.Again,
you've chosen wrong type of game to play. It just doesn't suits you. But it doesn't mean that it should be reworked only just for you. There are others who like it as is.
Oh, just because I do not like this part does not mean I wont overall enjoy the game. I'm having a blast right now discovering it.
Perhaps it will be annoying when I get to pvp not to have the tools before x amount of time is invested but perhaps it will be fun anyway. Those limitations will have to be worked around.
Your sports analogies are completely wrong, they speak in favour of my view, not yours. But it looks like you insist that you would play football in the elite leage with no shoes and no training from start. This is wrong. Everyone has the same equipment and depending on how good you are, you get to fight in a different league.
You spoke of wot (world of tanks), they do not have this there. It looked like you thought I thought that wot was perfect, it's far from it. But yes I enjoyed a lot of my time there. Right now, I'm enjoying myself in this game. I had opinions on what wot should do better, like I have opinions on what eso could do better.
Edited by IceDread on 24 April 2014 10:440 -
MollocH✭✭As a lot of people here played Daoc, you might remember the Battlegrounds ... while I see Cyrodiil as competitive end-game pvp, I don't know why Matt and his team didnt consider implementing that great way of low lvl pvp. Just 1 Keep and a small zone for lowbies
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IceDread✭✭✭As a lot of people here played Daoc, you might remember the Battlegrounds ... while I see Cyrodiil as competitive end-game pvp, I don't know why Matt and his team didnt consider implementing that great way of low lvl pvp. Just 1 Keep and a small zone for lowbies
That was actually extremely fun.
In warhammer online, that was also extremly fun. All I did nearly was to play rvr and lvl up
Then the bugs and cheats and serverlag and 6s long mass stuns made everyone quit it.0 -
drwoody44b14_ESO✭✭✭So I'm supposed to pay you $15 BUCKS EACH MONTH, waste whatever hours you just said, just to be able to have a decent time in PvP?
Do you realize just how stupid you sound right now?
Yuo could pay $60 to play GW2 instead.
Why do I get the feeling most of the people crying are the same people that cried in other games when they got ganked by a higher level on a pvp server? I also bet they were the ones that played on pvp servers and bitched at red players on Timeless Isle.
This isnt a FPS. You are not going to be on equal footing at level 10 against a level 60 (vr10). Ever. Done deal. Get over it. The Devs themselves have said this (a scaled 50 will never be as strong as a natural 50). Go find a game that allows this (LOL) if you dont like it. Oh wait, you cant.Edited by drwoody44b14_ESO on 24 April 2014 14:160 -
TheGrandAlliance✭✭✭✭cjtignub17_ESO wrote: »I dont get the point of this thread.
Well if you read my OP and not everything else you would understand that this thread concerns the balance of power of Seige/NPCs in this game. Both are useless with VR10s.
Again for the 134089124701947 time this thread (my relations thereof) HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH LVL DIFFERENCES BETWEEN PLAYERS.Indeed it is so...0 -
Kolache✭✭✭✭
Not that anyone has to agree, but bolstering is a benefit for both parties. It gets/keeps more people on the battlefield to play with/against. An influx of new players into PvP is incredibly important to the health of PvP. So it's not just doing them a favor by renting them a viper when they can only afford a civic; it's also giving you someone else to race against.Something being unbalanced in 1v1 does not imply that it is balanced in group play.0 -
Level your characters like the v10's instead of whining because your level 10 got run over....0
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Malediktus✭✭✭✭Veteran ranks are fine. Saying this as a lvl 40.@Malediktus --- Ebonheart Pact, EU-Megaserver0 -
ruzlb16_ESO✭✭✭I think the real difference is this:
You're a level 35 player. You're in 3 trade guilds, a dungeon guild and a private guild you made yourself, and you PvP in between leveling bouts in PvE. You join Cyrodiil and hook up with a random pug, the leader of which issues 5 orders in an hour and no-one listens anyway. If you are in a PvP guild, it is 250 strong, and essentially just acts as an alternative version of /z.
OR:
You're a VR10 player. You don't bother with PvE anymore til Craglorn comes out. You're in a 24-man, VR-only, dedicated PvP guild with Teamspeak and a set group lineup of 6 healers, 18DPS, with a set starting time every night. Your leader has 12 years of experience in MMO raid leading, and everyone does what they're told to do immediately. The group doesn't get split up, concentrates fire on each target in turn when it's announced via teamspeak, and co-ordinates healing, DPS, CC and Synergies perfectly according to the instructions of the raid leader.
Spot the difference? Even factoring in the better gear, VR player stats aren't much better than the scaled stats of other players. What they DO have is a lot more time available to practice and prepare for PvP, access to better teams, and greater organisation. 1v1, a VR isn't certain do defeat a level 30, but 24 VR10s vs a 24-strong level 10-49 pug is always going to be a win for the vets.1 -
Bloodvax✭✭✭Our current record for taking a keep is 3 vet 4's. And that was with 15 under vet 1's defending. WootASYLUM-PVP
Bloodvax- Vet Templar underpowered crafter
Molly Mesita-OP NB
Lizerd Wizard-Lowbie PVP toon
AOC Big Deal Emperor of the Forum Trolls1 -
Teel✭ruzlb16_ESO wrote: »I think the real difference is this:
You're a level 35 player. You're in 3 trade guilds, a dungeon guild and a private guild you made yourself, and you PvP in between leveling bouts in PvE. You join Cyrodiil and hook up with a random pug, the leader of which issues 5 orders in an hour and no-one listens anyway. If you are in a PvP guild, it is 250 strong, and essentially just acts as an alternative version of /z.
OR:
You're a VR10 player. You don't bother with PvE anymore til Craglorn comes out. You're in a 24-man, VR-only, dedicated PvP guild with Teamspeak and a set group lineup of 6 healers, 18DPS, with a set starting time every night. Your leader has 12 years of experience in MMO raid leading, and everyone does what they're told to do immediately. The group doesn't get split up, concentrates fire on each target in turn when it's announced via teamspeak, and co-ordinates healing, DPS, CC and Synergies perfectly according to the instructions of the raid leader.
Spot the difference? Even factoring in the better gear, VR player stats aren't much better than the scaled stats of other players. What they DO have is a lot more time available to practice and prepare for PvP, access to better teams, and greater organisation. 1v1, a VR isn't certain do defeat a level 30, but 24 VR10s vs a 24-strong level 10-49 pug is always going to be a win for the vets.
Finally a good post in here
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dalgrimar✭✭✭
There is a very simple solution for this = dodge outVR Ranks aren't the problem. Siege still hurts me at VR 10.
There are other SERIOUS issues that at exacerbated at VR10.
DK Dragon Standard + Block. Hits ridiculously hard and is very long. It costs VERY little compared to other Ultimates.
All DKs need to do is use a Shield and build for Stmaina.. bash bash bash. Character is dead. Stamina abilities in general are scaling REALLY high.
These need to be looked into.
About DK's just need to use shield and start like bashomaniac is stupid argument.
Every class can use bash spam.
Its not even that viable on dk, dk is way stronger in a fire focused build.
Edited by dalgrimar on 28 April 2014 11:260 -
TheGrandAlliance✭✭✭✭Indeed... also has I have observed recently in terms of vets vs non vets.... PvP with non vets is a joke now. Solo they are dead. Even in groups they are dead. I have been on both sides of this situation.
If vets (esp VR10 ones) are not seperated from non vets... then PvPing as a non vet is pointless. Cyrodiil loses its meaning. YOu cannot do anything unless in a overwhelming zerg. And even then it is not enough.
INdeed... because seige is useless (mininal damage), npcs are now useless(bugged combat AI/weak defense), and of course level differences... PvPing now is a bad idea if your not a vet.Edited by TheGrandAlliance on 16 May 2014 02:12Indeed it is so...1 -
Dudis✭✭✭I'm gonna roll a fresh level 15 at some point and record a couple of fights.
I don't do sieges but i'm fairly sure i could beat at least half the players i come across in 1v1.1 -
TheGrandAlliance✭✭✭✭Kingslayer wrote: »immune to siege? how? first i am hearing.
VR10s who get hit by seige take minimal damage. Also with skills such as Purge they can effectively take 0 damage from oil/fire. Whereas a lower lvl player gets hit for a big initial hit and further fire damge as well. Therefore a seige vs Vets are useless unless you have massive numbers of seige (and they are not paying attention or distracted.
Whereas one seige vs low lvl will be effective. An clear example of this is how players can stack healing and ram right down the front gate even with 4+oils all firing at the same time.Indeed it is so...0 -
Slantasiam✭✭✭can we just get a lvl 10 pvp zone...oh darn im lvl 11 now can we just get a lvl 11 zone 12s are op ...oh darn in level 12 now can we just have a lvl 12 pvp zone 13s are op.......bottom line you will never be happy even if you get to rank1 you will cry the v10s are to strong. just stop....1
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TheGrandAlliance✭✭✭✭Slantasiam wrote: »can we just get a lvl 10 pvp zone...oh darn im lvl 11 now can we just get a lvl 11 zone 12s are op ...oh darn in level 12 now can we just have a lvl 12 pvp zone 13s are op.......bottom line you will never be happy even if you get to rank1 you will cry the v10s are to strong. just stop....
Difference between lvl 10 and 11 is negligble. Even lvl 49 vs lvl 10 isn't as crazy as vs VR10. Thus your reference is worthless.
WIth 1.1 comming out... VR12's will be like gods compared to lvl 10's.Edited by TheGrandAlliance on 17 May 2014 09:17Indeed it is so...0 -
Nooblet✭✭✭✭^ Im confused about your videos. First, I agree DK is completely broken OP class, and I believe having no cooldows is the reason and thus was a horrible mistake.
Your video spamming AE, I'm not sure what you were trying to show there, but I got bored after the first few showing the same thing.
Your video against the 2h sorc you looked like a chicken with your head cut off and had no clue what you were trying to do. I stopped watching it after that first fight.
Your last video is one to say Nighblades are fine? I'm confused.
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TheGrandAlliance✭✭✭✭1.1.2 Update: Supposedly the patch actually solidifies my claim that PvP is "Home of the Vets".
Although I do support bolstering NPC guard powers... it should be down in a way that doesn't affect lower lvls. Else: Bolster up lower lvls more so they are not completely worthless.
Nonetheless... this patch will slow down /roflstomp of solo vets nightcapping an entire map. Until I can get to play the patch myself it will be hard to tell whether this is a good thing or not...Indeed it is so...0 -
Nox_Aeterna wrote: »I think you should be able to lvl and get gold at the same speed a PvE player of your lvl would.
But i also think a vet10 player should be able to destroy "low lvl" players without a problem.
I hate they try to balance massive PvP , having stronger and weaker enemies make it much more fun.
I am sorry, but If I meet weaker player and I kill him in two hits I do not call it fun.
If I am on the other side I do not call it fun either.
So I ask you. Do you like real PvP or you just love being outleveled and outgeared over your enemy so you can wreck low level players and then call yourself serious and great PvPer? If this is the case I pity you.
They have to make PvP scaled to highest level for all. Vet players will have enough advantage with skills unlocked...
or if you don´t like this idea I vote for closing PVP for pre vet10 (vet12 etc depending on top level)
Becasue as was stated claiming that you can enter PvP since level 10 and have fun is pure lie.
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A much smaller version of Cyrodiil for tiered levels (1-10, 11-19, etc) similar to Cyrodiil without timers, queues and a large population cap. That way the lower levels still have a pvp fighting chance against similar levels, still enjoy the massive warfare experience on a smaller map so they find each other faster, and learn how siege and such works.
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Dear God no. Twinx can all burn. In no way shape or form should they tier it off and create Twinking. It was stupid in WoW, and it would be stupid here. "My level 19 has 450 hours of game time, just won't level so he can dominate this tier and not move up."
WoW dealt with this easy enough. You gain XP, so you can not twink for long. If you disable your XP gain you are in queue only with other twinks.
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