ESO PvP is Finished: Home of the Vets

TheGrandAlliance

EDIT: It appears 1.1.2 makes major changes that only makes PvP more about Vets vs Vets. Although it does stop VR10+ players from /roflstomping the map (for now) it makes PvP almost a waste of time for sub VR5. Issue 2 below appears to have been addresed with the patch.

On another note... the "caltrops" exploit may explain some of the behaviours observed in this post.


Vets are now OP in PvP...Pure and Simple.

Seige weapons don't work against them. Anyone below lvl 50 is cannon fodder. NPCs can't touch them. Even lower ranked vets are worthless.

All of the "fail-safe mechanics" that worked at launch on lower lvls such as NPC cover and seige weapons are now worthless. This game has now just desolved into an arms race of "who has the bigger vet zerg" like other MMORPGs rather then who has the most skill. The situation thereof would exist even if 100% of the player population was VR10 Legendary Gear.

IF balance isn't restored like it existed in the first week this game's PvP is done. Will the "elite guilds" continue to fight it out? Yes. Will the rest of us be there to spectate? Most unlikely...


There has been some confusion: This post does not by nature claim that vets shouldn't be stronger then lvl 10s. Rather it concerns the "fail-safe mechanics" that this game had to ensure balance whether lvl 10 vs lvl 10 or VR10 vs VR10.

WHAT IT HAS TO DO IS: The balance of power on the Battlefield: 1. Ability to engage in zergs using seige to break them up. 2. NPC's ability to provide an effective defense. This has nothing to do with player lvl differences.

1. Seige: They are there to prevent zerging. IF VR10s are immune to seige they are able to charge right into a keep, open battlefield situation, or otherwise with no recourse. Doesn't matter whether I am lvl 10 or VR10. An example is the oil use on the outter/inner doors. Normally oil stops a zerg from zerging. Now VR10 can just ram down the front gate every time, not worry about enemy seige, and cap without problem.

2. NPCs: They are there to stop zergs/small groups from suicide charging. Why have guard NPCs at resources when a single VR10 can solo it? Why have guard NPCs at keeps? Why have mage AOE when stacked healing/shields block it? Why have NPCs at all then?


What are the solutions therefore?

1. Make seige % based damage versus absolute damage... like fall damage is. Therefore a lvl 10/VR10 would take same damage. This could be scaled if desired so that higher lvls would have slightly more defense.

2. Difficulty Slider: Like all prevous Elder Scrolls games... make it so VR10s get hit/attacks weaken when hitting NPCs. Thus their effectiveness would be closer to that of a lvl 10 then it is currently. Therefore VR10s don't have PvE advantage in PvP combat.

Mephiston87

Honestly i have noticed many small groups of vet 10 DK's wiping out 3-4x larger groups without dieing. whether its the gear, or theyr skills or a mix of both im not sure.

Zintair

VR Ranks aren't the problem. Siege still hurts me at VR 10.

There are other SERIOUS issues that at exacerbated at VR10.

DK Dragon Standard + Block. Hits ridiculously hard and is very long. It costs VERY little compared to other Ultimates.

Let's look at Nova which was nerfed. Costs 275-300 Ultimate. Mitigates by 30% and hits for barely anything anymore. Has a stun synergy which is nice but still doesn't do the damage it should for the cost.

Standard cost 200 Ultimate and hits MUCH harder and lasts MUCH longer and has a synergy as well.

Stamina Builds.

All DKs need to do is use a Shield and build for Stmaina.. bash bash bash. Character is dead. Stamina abilities in general are scaling REALLY high.


These need to be looked into.

Soban

You should probably be complaining about how you aren't able to reach vet ranks at a reasonable speed with just PvP.

awkwarrd

Soban wrote: »

You should probably be complaining about how you aren't able to reach vet ranks at a reasonable speed with just PvP.

This ^^

I hate to plug my own thread..
But go vote..
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/74423/pvp-rewards/p1

Ramanadjinn

Keep at it.

If you just put your time in PVPing you'll likely be VR10 yourself before the second expansion!

Zargorius

"Finished"? Lol, way to spell doom. Looks like somebody got trashed pretty well.

Nox_Aeterna

I think you should be able to lvl and get gold at the same speed a PvE player of your lvl would.

But i also think a vet10 player should be able to destroy "low lvl" players without a problem.

I hate they try to balance massive PvP , having stronger and weaker enemies make it much more fun.

Zazar

Vets are now OP in PvP...Pure and Simple

Level-up, rank-up, then try again, and finally complain.

Yasha

This game was never about balanced pvp and has no "fail-safe mechanics".

limeli8

This is dumb, most people will be vet in a week or 2 and then the balance of when everyone was lvl 10 will be back. Low level isn't supposed to be able to take out vets that easy but they can sure do that. I got killed on my v10 by 2 level 35 nightblades who ganked me real good putting piercing mark on me and spamming interrupts/cc. Glad that instead of posting here they just used strategy and good teamwork and got some serious points when i dropped. For those who dont know difference between a vr1 and a vr10 in pvp is higher softcaps on stats, and very slightly better gear. The are exceptions, some do make legendary gear and sets for vr10 but most still run around in all green low vr gear.

zerberr

Can we just have 2-3 campaigns with special rules, i.e, no vets? That would be easiest way and surely would fix the problem.

Rangcom

zerberr wrote: »

Can we just have 2-3 campaigns with special rules, i.e, no vets? That would be easiest way and surely would fix the problem.

Facepalm...No No. If everyone had their way, their would be campaigns for everything (No Addons, No Vets, PVE Only, RP). I have a better solution, make VR1 the lvl requirement to enter Cyrodiil.

Pedro

Actually VR characters get downsized stat wise since Cyrodiil is lvl50. The only difference is the gear and what little SP we get from extra sky shards in VR lands.

VR players do get damaged by siege, but we have a bit more experience and know how to cleanse it quickly or avoid it all together.

If anything, the BG system that DAoC had could help a bit with these issues. A much smaller version of Cyrodiil for tiered levels (1-10, 11-19, etc) similar to Cyrodiil without timers, queues and a large population cap. That way the lower levels still have a pvp fighting chance against similar levels, still enjoy the massive warfare experience on a smaller map so they find each other faster, and learn how siege and such works.

As for the zerg argument, it has been like that since beta, heck since cyrodiil was announced. The pvp they want in this game is massive warfare, hence the huge map, the big sieges, etc. This game is designed to be zerg vs zerg vs zerg. Three faction warfare. Smaller groups are doable but they have to be smart and pick their locations and their fights.

Cydone

In short, L2PVP

Wolfaen

This is the way I see it.. The Veteran Rank players have a clear and significant advantage to those under level 50. This is the way it should be, however, I think the gap between the stats of a under 50 to a VR player are too large in my opinion. It currently is discouraging under leveled players to go into PvP because of the enormous disadvantage(as well as there being no way to level anymore through PvP).

The wars were great before people were level 50, but now everything is far skewed towards the VR players. I think this will even out eventually once the majority of players get to level 50, but right now it is getting pretty bad. My suggestion is for Zenimax to raise the upscaled boosts that players 10-49 receive in PvP. They should still have less health/stamina/magicka than a VR player, but at least raise it to where under leveled players can at least be somewhat competitive to a VR. Currently those under leveled, or even a group of them, have no chance whatsoever versus a VR player.

joshisanonymous

The game is a couple weeks old, meaning it is not that difficult to get to VR10 if that many people have reached that point, meaning it is way too premature to be saying that VRs should be nullified in PvP.

The only way I could see this being problematic is if the only way to get VRs was through PvP, which would effectively put a giant wall up to achieving that for latecomers. This was, IMO, a huge problem in Warhammer Online, where "Renown Ranks" decided your gear, stats, etc, in a way that made those of high ranks literally exponentially stronger than those of lower ranks (lightly armored healers could easily tank a low rank player), and the only way to get these ranks was through PvP.

"Realm Ranks" in DAoC worked similarly, at least for providing the sole means to powerful abilities, but meant nothing for gear and little for stats. The difference was essentially having access to more situational skills. The result was that players who equipped their characters to the teeth in PvE could, at low ranks, faceoff against high ranking players who hardly touched PvE. To me, this is the ideal scenario: providing multiple avenues to increasing the power of your character so that those who get in early have no way to block others from access to that increased power, nor do they automatically have more power than others.

ESO isn't quite setup like this, but it's a lot closer to the DAoC system than WAR. A VR10 player who has barely touched PvE may not have access to the VR10 gear they want because they've done nothing to earn gold to buy it or level crafting skills to make it. They just have to have friends. Even at that, they likely have far fewer skillpoints if they haven't touched PvE. Points come from much more than just skyshards and having ~60 compared to ~200 means the latter player has every usable passive they can get for their build, while the former (who may be a higher VR) has a select few passives that they feel are absolutely necessary. Either way, of the latecomer feels the ranks are still a huge obstacle in PvP, they can simply get the rank themselves in a couple weeks, along with all the extra skillpoints, and all the gear rewards, and all the gold they might need to procure the VR gear sets they want.

Edit: I realize that part of my argument is based on VR10 player having done a minimal of PvE. My assumption is that a lot of VR10 players right now were grinding PvP quests in the first couple days after launch and mostly skipped PvE. But, even if that's not the case, the fact that people can get through all that content in less than a month means the whole issue is pretty moot.

NordJitsu

There are two problems here:

PvP is not a viable way to level.

Battle Leveled players are too squishy. The armor should be increased back to 900 and the spell resist back to (I think it was)1,200.

Veteran Rank players being able to destroy non-Vets is not a problem. If you want to be able to compete with them, level up.

joshisanonymous

BTW, I'm pretty sure Zenimax said they were setting up Cyrodiil for VR3 for launch but would adjust it over time (i.e. guards and siege could become much stronger).

Censorious

Hyperbole much?
I'm level 28 - Cyrodiil's a blast!

Maybe vets are OP - idk, never met one.

Zordrage

Censorious wrote: »

Hyperbole much?
I'm level 28 - Cyrodiil's a blast!

Maybe vets are OP - idk, never met one.

let me bet your ranged ? go in as a melee at lvl28 befor you can hit someone twice your dead.............

and i see Armies of Vet 5-10 players.......

sleepspasmnub18_ESO

There is enough whining in the PVP section that if you put it all together you could piece out the works of Shakespeare.

You are not supposed to be able to kill a VR at level 12 or whatever level you are that believes you should be able to compete 1v1 with someone who's leagues above you in gear and skill points. It is possible to kill them, if they are terrible and you yourself aren't just a meat bag with a noggin.

The balance that you say existed in PVP the first week was when 90% of people were not veteran rank and everyone was relying on the buff to 50 and thus similiar. When you get above 50 you don't rely on that any longer and thus grow stronger that the insta 50s (some, some builds are OP even pre 50). I'm kinda upset at myself for even trying to explain this to someone who thinks they are entitled to so much. You kids need to go back to WoW with your hello kitty brackets.

Zordrage

sleepspasmnub18_ESO wrote: »

There is enough whining in the PVP section that if you put it all together you could piece out the works of Shakespeare.

You are not supposed to be able to kill a VR at level 12 or whatever level you are that believes you should be able to compete 1v1 with someone who's leagues above you in gear and skill points. It is possible to kill them, if they are terrible and you yourself aren't just a meat bag with a noggin.

The balance that you say existed in PVP the first week was when 90% of people were not veteran rank and everyone was relying on the buff to 50 and thus similiar. When you get above 50 you don't rely on that any longer and thus grow stronger that the insta 50s (some, some builds are OP even pre 50). I'm kinda upset at myself for even trying to explain this to someone who thinks they are entitled to so much. You kids need to go back to WoW with your hello kitty brackets.

my lvl36 nightblade just got INSTANT killed by a sorcerer from nowhere ( did not saw anyone anywhere even after death ) with 1 single ability......

think abbout that a litle........

zerberr

Rangcom wrote: »

zerberr wrote: »

Can we just have 2-3 campaigns with special rules, i.e, no vets? That would be easiest way and surely would fix the problem.

Facepalm...No No. If everyone had their way, their would be campaigns for everything (No Addons, No Vets, PVE Only, RP). I have a better solution, make VR1 the lvl requirement to enter Cyrodiil.

Save your facepalm for youself. I'm far from VR1 and have no interest in power-leveling, farming, exploiting or anyhow else rushing my game just to be able to enter Cyrodill, and your "better" solution is horrible.

We already have several different campaigns where "everyone have their own way". All is required is to add special rules to some of them. Like making VR1 a requirement to enter.

sleepspasmnub18_ESO

Zoliru wrote: »

sleepspasmnub18_ESO wrote: »

There is enough whining in the PVP section that if you put it all together you could piece out the works of Shakespeare.

You are not supposed to be able to kill a VR at level 12 or whatever level you are that believes you should be able to compete 1v1 with someone who's leagues above you in gear and skill points. It is possible to kill them, if they are terrible and you yourself aren't just a meat bag with a noggin.

The balance that you say existed in PVP the first week was when 90% of people were not veteran rank and everyone was relying on the buff to 50 and thus similiar. When you get above 50 you don't rely on that any longer and thus grow stronger that the insta 50s (some, some builds are OP even pre 50). I'm kinda upset at myself for even trying to explain this to someone who thinks they are entitled to so much. You kids need to go back to WoW with your hello kitty brackets.

my lvl36 nightblade just got INSTANT killed by a sorcerer from nowhere ( did not saw anyone anywhere even after death ) with 1 single ability......

think abbout that a litle........

My lvl 43 Nightblade gets one shot by a Vet nightblade coming out of stealth. What's your point?

Kewljag_66_ESO

zerberr wrote: »

Can we just have 2-3 campaigns with special rules, i.e, no vets? That would be easiest way and surely would fix the problem.

So you want to take away the Engdame PVP progression from the PVP endgame?...........

Laura

level up?

xhrit

Kewljag_66_ESO wrote: »

So you want to take away the Engdame PVP progression from the PVP endgame?...........

Not much progression if people can p-level there in 2 weeks.

Haxer

Pedro wrote: »

...

A much smaller version of Cyrodiil for tiered levels (1-10, 11-19, etc) similar to Cyrodiil without timers, queues and a large population cap. That way the lower levels still have a pvp fighting chance against similar levels, still enjoy the massive warfare experience on a smaller map so they find each other faster, and learn how siege and such works.

...

Dear God no. Twinx can all burn. In no way shape or form should they tier it off and create Twinking. It was stupid in WoW, and it would be stupid here. "My level 19 has 450 hours of game time, just won't level so he can dominate this tier and not move up."

7788b14_ESO

Doesn't sound balanced.

Samadhi

Rangcom wrote: »

...I have a better solution, make VR1 the lvl requirement to enter Cyrodiil.

Eww no, then I would have reason to complain. I'm only level 30 but I PvP daily. I love it in its current incarnation.
Just make VR1 the level requirement to post threads about balance issues on the forums.