Population shrinking, PLEASE do something

Theist_VII · October 3

MISTFORMBZZZ wrote: »

Warhawke_80 wrote: »

MISTFORMBZZZ wrote: »

Syldras wrote: »

Dimorphos wrote: »

Deleting our voice of criticism is only making us martyrs

The thread looks alive and well after 14 pages.

For now they havent closed it but since Zos has already replied and delted some posts here, im asking again.

Can you give a statement about the current situation, are you aware of our players concerns and do you hear and react to them, what are the plans to stop the population to decrease further, so we can keep playing our favorite game?

I just have a feeling that no matter what Zenimax proposes some people are going to be angry and continue to Doom cry on the game...they probably are talking a lot about this internally...but we aren't going to hear about it until the next patch or expansion announcement

Cooperative player development isn't a thing.

Not meanign it bad but why you give them an excuse to not be transparent?

I would still apericate an statement by their team.

Preferably one that is not nuanced, and explicitly provides a road map of what Zenimax are going to do to combat the aging of their product.

An actual content roadmap would help too.

hiyde · October 3

Warhawke_80 wrote: »

Dude no offense...but looking over your post ...you sound like a commercial for Throne and Liberty...I just don't think you're going to move a lot of people over to a pay to win Asian MMO that has gear vending machines in way of the Battlepass....as they typically don't do well in the west and T&L has bombed in Korea so I don't see it taking the west by storm

I don't think T&L is an ESO killer and so far I am seeing zero impact on number of members online during primetime in my ESO guilds. (PC-NA)

That said, every MMO gotta monetize somehow and many of them do it in ways people aren't big fans of (for me, that includes T&L *and* ESO). It doesn't stop me from playing either game, I just don't participate in the monetization elements that I don't like, while supporting the games in the ways I prefer to (like multiple ESO+ accounts active since the start, or paying for Early Access in T&L + Battle Pass).

Just as I'm not a fan of T&L's auction house structure (though it is completely possible to fully participate in it without swiping), I'm also not a fan of gambling crates (to which ignoring doesn't harm my ESO experience).

FYI: There is absolutely no gear in the free or paid Battlepass in T&L. Not sure where you got that from. It's a f2p game with no monthly sub option. Like ZOS, they're in this to make profit and there's nothing wrong with that as long as I can have fun playing either game and not be forced to support monetization elements I don't care for.

TaSheen · October 3

@colossalvoids @Syldras - personally I loved the fox (all the animals really) in the scribing quest line. And at this point it's my favorite quest in the whole game.

Syldras · October 3

TaSheen wrote: »

@colossalvoids @Syldras - personally I loved the fox (all the animals really) in the scribing quest line. And at this point it's my favorite quest in the whole game.

Different people - different likings and different types of humour

And that's fine. I personally don't dislike that they made it a fable, but I feel they could have made more out of it. As in going a bit deeper on topics, and maybe connecting things more to the world of TES; it felt a bit too unrelated somehow (even with travelling different places in the world), like a story of it's own, which could of course also be made like that on purpose, but I'd rather prefered it a little differently. But then again, I'm wondering now whether it might be to localization. I play the German version of ESO and sometimes, there are bigger differences to the English one. Who knows.

Theist_VII · October 3

The Elder Scrolls have never been games for an immature playerbase.

Anything so lighthearted completely ignores the impending Daedric invasion, and takes away from the entire tone of the game.

Syldras · October 3

Theist_VII wrote: »

The Elder Scrolls have never been games for an immature playerbase.
Anything so lighthearted completely ignores the impending Daedric invasion, and takes away from the entire tone of the game.

I don't think the tone of the whole game has to be gloomy all the time. Talking about the real world, even if the most horrible situations, like amidst a war zone, people still celebrated Christmas or their birthdays, as much as it was possible. Also, people sometimes celebrate to push the dire thoughts aside. And some nobleman safe in his castle probably wouldn't even really be bothered by some conflict outside, and some people of a remote village somewhere might not even have noticed what's going on elsewhere.

But of course, I'd like the serious situations show a bit more. Having daedra run around in front of the city gate but no one inside the city seems to care is a little immersion-breaking (same as npcs cracking jokes when arriving in a dangerous dungeon or daedric realm). I found the situation in Vulkhel Guard really strange in the beginning, with that dark anchor that drops only a short distance away, and you can easily see it from in front of the manor as well as from the marketplace, but no one bats an eye. While I understand that having a crafting hub in permanent terror would be a little nerve-wracking, I think that it wasn't a good idea to place the dark anchor so close to a city.

Dialogue quality is another topic altogether.

Jaraal · October 3

Elsonso wrote: »

AwA was a major turn off, and piled on that are the more rampant invulnerability phases that just make boss combat less fun while we wait for the boss to check his mail, hit the bathroom, or whatever he needs to do. The guild trader changes didn't really impact me, but it would have back when I was heavy into that, and it serves to stop me from restarting down that path.

Yep, they killed replayability by making alt progression moot. And nothing makes me avoid newer content more than these ridiculous "You can't hurt me, nah nah nah" time wasting invulnerability phases. The Oblivion portal bosses are the worst, with 90% of your time spent killing trash, while you can burn the boss down very easily in the 10% time he's actually targetable.

And the Mirrormoor incursions are not far behind in annoyance. I'm not willing to run around looking for multiple 2,000,000 HP trash mobs that drop junk to kill just so I can spawn a Champion boss that is invulnerable for the vast majority of the final fight. A lot of folks are just looking on the map to see which mosaic is active, then they go stand in the middle of it while a couple of players go hunt down the trash Valkynaz (Valkynazes? Valkyni? Valkynees?), and /sitchair and then tab out to do other stuff on the internet. Once the boss does his first invulnerable cocoon phase and knockbacks you to the curb, your companion can get in a few shots before they are terminated, and you can tab back in later and loot the pile.

Aside from the performance, constant combat reworks, and chronic bug issues prevalent in ESO.... if they port this invulnerability phase artificial engagement time extender metric they like so well into the new AAA title they are working on, well, that's just another reason to look harder into other options.

ragnarok6644b14_ESO · October 3

I think there is a lot of subtlety in ESO that you have to go looking for (perhaps it's too subtle).

Markarth had an understandable villain with an entire set of questions (and deeper mysteries) about the nature of the Reach, reality, and conflict.

Ithelia's story in many ways also opens up subtle references in the lore and has some questions I don't want to get into right now but I hope have payoff in the future....

Syldras · October 3

ragnarok6644b14_ESO wrote: »

I think there is a lot of subtlety in ESO that you have to go looking for (perhaps it's too subtle).

Drowning them in a flood of cliché characters, uncreative quips and simple morals certainly doesn't help.

Anifaas · October 3

Stafford197 wrote: »

The only difference is that ESO is part of the beloved Elder Scrolls series. Few games have an opportunity like this where no matter what the game does, enough players will remain so the game can stay afloat, whereas any other MMO would die. This series is incredibly popular.

I’d be really glad to see ESO make a huge comeback in 2025, but I have zero hope for it based on their past actions.

After the launch of Fallout 76, the reception of Starfield, the reception of the recent Starfield DLC, the recent comments about ES6 not being able to meet player's expectations and the trajectory of ESO I wonder how long this franchise has left. I know that after the last 3 chapters my appreciation of the series has been lowered substantially. It is a sentiment I see all over.

Whatever ZOS/Bethesda releases next, you can be sure it will be met with intense scrutiny.

Syldras · October 3

Anifaas wrote: »

the recent comments about ES6 not being able to meet player's expectations

How do we know? It's not even out yet. Not that I'm not concerned, but I don't want to judge it before we even have decent information available.

hiyde · October 3

Syldras wrote: »

Anifaas wrote: »

the recent comments about ES6 not being able to meet player's expectations

How do we know? It's not even out yet. Not that I'm not concerned, but I don't want to judge it before we even have decent information available.

Context:

"The fans who want to buy Elder Scrolls 6, their expectation is going to be almost impossible to meet," Nesmith said. "And marketing departments just put their heads in their hands and weep at this. Because it's like, 'Okay, if it isn't perfect, it doesn't get a 95-plus on Metacritic, we're a failure'."

- Bruce Nesmith, Lead Designer of Skyrim

Basically he's saying people are very hard to please these days, not that he thinks ES6 will be a bad product.

AzuraFan · October 3

Syldras wrote: »

Anifaas wrote: »

the recent comments about ES6 not being able to meet player's expectations

How do we know? It's not even out yet. Not that I'm not concerned, but I don't want to judge it before we even have decent information available.

Agreed. Bethesda released a game that wasn't a homerun (Starfield) after knocking it out of the park with TES, Fallout, and its other games (I'm not counting Fallout 76 because it's not an SP game). One mediocre game (to some) among a string of hits, some of them so fantastic like Skyrim that there are still tons of people playing it today. A studio should be allowed to have one dud out of many, many hits without some gamers predicting that its next project will fail.

We've seen pretty much nothing of TES6 except a short video saying it's on the schedule, so we have nothing to judge this new game on.

Syldras · October 3

hiyde wrote: »

Context:
"The fans who want to buy Elder Scrolls 6, their expectation is going to be almost impossible to meet," Nesmith said. "And marketing departments just put their heads in their hands and weep at this. Because it's like, 'Okay, if it isn't perfect, it doesn't get a 95-plus on Metacritic, we're a failure'."
- Bruce Nesmith, Lead Designer of Skyrim
Basically he's saying people are very hard to please these days, not that he thinks ES6 will be a bad product.

Thanks for the quote.

I think one part of the problem is that TES6 was announced so early and that people have been waiting for almost 13 years now. I know Bethesda developed other things inbetween, but still, 13 years are a long time and expectations grow from year to year, especially since many players probably don't consider that the game has only been worked on for a little time so far (I think it was roughly a year ago that they announced they began development).

vsrs_au · October 3

hiyde wrote: »

Syldras wrote: »

Anifaas wrote: »

the recent comments about ES6 not being able to meet player's expectations

How do we know? It's not even out yet. Not that I'm not concerned, but I don't want to judge it before we even have decent information available.

Context:

"The fans who want to buy Elder Scrolls 6, their expectation is going to be almost impossible to meet," Nesmith said. "And marketing departments just put their heads in their hands and weep at this. Because it's like, 'Okay, if it isn't perfect, it doesn't get a 95-plus on Metacritic, we're a failure'."

- Bruce Nesmith, Lead Designer of Skyrim

Basically he's saying people are very hard to please these days, not that he thinks ES6 will be a bad product.

Not surprising: ES 5 set the quality bar very, very high, and is one of the best games ever for modding, so of course it's very hard to compete with that.

Elsonso · October 3

Syldras wrote: »

Anifaas wrote: »

the recent comments about ES6 not being able to meet player's expectations

How do we know? It's not even out yet. Not that I'm not concerned, but I don't want to judge it before we even have decent information available.

I consider Fallout 76 and Starfield to be harbingers for ES6. Yes, they managed to pull Fallout 76 out of the fire and I guess it is doing well. Starfield does not seem to be getting a big bump from Shattered Space. I dunno if they have more planned for Starfield, but these two games do not fill me with hope.

While I think that people will play Elder Scrolls 6, I do have to wonder whether it will kick ESO off the top of the stack, long term.

Jusey1 · October 4

Elsonso wrote: »

I consider Fallout 76 and Starfield to be harbingers for ES6. Yes, they managed to pull Fallout 76 out of the fire and I guess it is doing well. Starfield does not seem to be getting a big bump from Shattered Space. I dunno if they have more planned for Starfield, but these two games do not fill me with hope.

While I think that people will play Elder Scrolls 6, I do have to wonder whether it will kick ESO off the top of the stack, long term.

Tbf, Fallout 76 is also mostly by the newer Bethesda Team down in Texas, not the main team in Maryland which made all of the good stuff before Fallout 76. The most they did for 76 I think is just made the base game world, which has been something everyone seem to love about the game.

Starfield, on the other hand, is a strange title. It's good in a sense, but it suffers the most from having randomly generated planets instead of properly well loved and created landscapes that we are use to from Bethesda Game Studios. So, I am still generally hopeful for TES6, but we'll have to see.

hiyde wrote: »

Basically he's saying people are very hard to please these days, not that he thinks ES6 will be a bad product.

He's correct. As a mod author, I see it all the time and it is a headache. Hell, Starfield isn't that bad of a game overall despite it's main flaws, it still does some stuff really well and I enjoyed my time playing it to a degree.

Syldras · October 4

Elsonso wrote: »

I consider Fallout 76 and Starfield to be harbingers for ES6. Yes, they managed to pull Fallout 76 out of the fire and I guess it is doing well. Starfield does not seem to be getting a big bump from Shattered Space. I dunno if they have more planned for Starfield, but these two games do not fill me with hope.

I can't judge Starfield as I haven't played it yet (somehow lacked the time for it), but I played F76 for a while. I had the impression the main problem there was that parts of the intended concept weren't well-received. Most reviews I read complained about the lack of npcs, for example - which was a deliberate design choice (Bethesda had made a statement that all living human characters in the game should be real human players, without exception). Except for the server instabilities at the start, I found it interesting, to be honest. It wasn't comparable to the singleplayer Fallout games, but something on its own. That most people had wished for something different (very comparable to TES players who wished ESO just to be something like a "Skyrim with friends" probably) was the big problem. As for TES6, I hope that Bethesda knows what people expect from a singleplayer TES game. Which doesn't mean it couldn't be ruined in other ways, of course.

Elsonso wrote: »

While I think that people will play Elder Scrolls 6, I do have to wonder whether it will kick ESO off the top of the stack, long term.

Even if there will be modding, I think the interest for TES6 will also slowly sink after a while after its release. What's to fill the gap until TES7 then? The biggest question to me is how ESO will develop in the upcoming years. If they make good decisions, it could bloom again between TES 6 and 7. If they reduce content more and more every year... who knows whether it will still be interesting for most current players even before TES6's release (which probably will be in 4 or 5 years or so?).

Stafford197 · October 4

Anifaas wrote: »

Stafford197 wrote: »

The only difference is that ESO is part of the beloved Elder Scrolls series. Few games have an opportunity like this where no matter what the game does, enough players will remain so the game can stay afloat, whereas any other MMO would die. This series is incredibly popular.

I’d be really glad to see ESO make a huge comeback in 2025, but I have zero hope for it based on their past actions.

After the launch of Fallout 76, the reception of Starfield, the reception of the recent Starfield DLC, the recent comments about ES6 not being able to meet player's expectations and the trajectory of ESO I wonder how long this franchise has left. I know that after the last 3 chapters my appreciation of the series has been lowered substantially. It is a sentiment I see all over.

Whatever ZOS/Bethesda releases next, you can be sure it will be met with intense scrutiny.

I agree and honestly it makes me really sad. This is my favorite series, flat out.

I’m not going to be pre-ordering TES6. Need to wait on player reviews for this one before I potentially waste my money.

MISTFORMBZZZ · October 4

Please Zos give us a statement, this thread has more then 20k views and hundreds of comments, you can see its a real concern of players wich are representing your playerbase.

Elsonso · October 4

Syldras wrote: »

Elsonso wrote: »

While I think that people will play Elder Scrolls 6, I do have to wonder whether it will kick ESO off the top of the stack, long term.

Even if there will be modding, I think the interest for TES6 will also slowly sink after a while after its release. What's to fill the gap until TES7 then? The biggest question to me is how ESO will develop in the upcoming years. If they make good decisions, it could bloom again between TES 6 and 7. If they reduce content more and more every year... who knows whether it will still be interesting for most current players even before TES6's release (which probably will be in 4 or 5 years or so?).

BGS games have longevity because of modding, so I expect that this will happen in ES6. I hope that BGS learned from Starfield that modding at, or near, Day 1 might be beneficial to the success of the game. It is important to capture the modders early and not make them wait months. BGS games are not good enough to stand by themselves without modding support, so if the modders wander off, so go all the players looking for mods to make Starfield theirs. As we have seen.

Of course, the same situation applies to ZOS with ESO. In designing a minimalist UI they didn't make a very usable UI. On PC,. addons have basically reinvented a lot of the UI, but console players are left banging rocks together in an attempt to start a fire.

Addons have probably contributed to the longevity of ESO, at least for PC, but ZOS has not followed BGS and allowed addons for console players. That would be bigger than Housing Tours, Scribing, and whatever they are doing this quarter, combined.

Hurbster · October 4

Yes, I have discovered the joys of Wabbajack modlists for Skyrim and Fallout 4 which have caused me to start playing those games again.

Warhawke_80 · October 4

hiyde wrote: »

Warhawke_80 wrote: »

Dude no offense...but looking over your post ...you sound like a commercial for Throne and Liberty...I just don't think you're going to move a lot of people over to a pay to win Asian MMO that has gear vending machines in way of the Battlepass....as they typically don't do well in the west and T&L has bombed in Korea so I don't see it taking the west by storm

I don't think T&L is an ESO killer and so far I am seeing zero impact on number of members online during primetime in my ESO guilds. (PC-NA)

That said, every MMO gotta monetize somehow and many of them do it in ways people aren't big fans of (for me, that includes T&L *and* ESO). It doesn't stop me from playing either game, I just don't participate in the monetization elements that I don't like, while supporting the games in the ways I prefer to (like multiple ESO+ accounts active since the start, or paying for Early Access in T&L + Battle Pass).

Just as I'm not a fan of T&L's auction house structure (though it is completely possible to fully participate in it without swiping), I'm also not a fan of gambling crates (to which ignoring doesn't harm my ESO experience).

FYI: There is absolutely no gear in the free or paid Battlepass in T&L. Not sure where you got that from. It's a f2p game with no monthly sub option. Like ZOS, they're in this to make profit and there's nothing wrong with that as long as I can have fun playing either game and not be forced to support monetization elements I don't care for.

Hahahahahahahahaha!

Dude...I get your explanation but...

The battle pass that you pay money for gives you a currency that will let you buy gear on the AH and that is pay to win no matter how you slice it....I can link many video that explain just how pay to win the game is but we both know these will be edited or removed...I mean T&L has been called the most P2W game since Lostark it's right up there with Gehshin Impact.

My point being that the hypercompetitives in ESO are going to look hypocritical as hell boosting and playing this type of game after shrieking "Earn It!!!" to the casuals players of this game for over a decade....I mean people have gotten death threats in this game for simply riding a Radiant Apex mount...if you dare suggest that maybe Expansion Dungeons should have a story mode where you can Bring NPC's so more people can experience the content you get ridiculed by the content creators and some of the forum goers of here...

But lets play a P2W game where we can buy our gear

Classic.

MISTFORMBZZZ · October 4

Tried yesterday during prime tome to join or host a trial, lucient citadem.. tried find people in craglorn, tried hosting with group finder - i have been traveling from zone to zone writing the trial is in group finder.

In half an hour i found 6 people but then they started leaving because it was taking to long.

I can only repeat the population on the server is on such a bad space its incredible.

Its actually depressing

Theist_VII · October 4

Warhawke_80 wrote: »

hiyde wrote: »

Warhawke_80 wrote: »

Dude no offense...but looking over your post ...you sound like a commercial for Throne and Liberty...I just don't think you're going to move a lot of people over to a pay to win Asian MMO that has gear vending machines in way of the Battlepass....as they typically don't do well in the west and T&L has bombed in Korea so I don't see it taking the west by storm

I don't think T&L is an ESO killer and so far I am seeing zero impact on number of members online during primetime in my ESO guilds. (PC-NA)

That said, every MMO gotta monetize somehow and many of them do it in ways people aren't big fans of (for me, that includes T&L *and* ESO). It doesn't stop me from playing either game, I just don't participate in the monetization elements that I don't like, while supporting the games in the ways I prefer to (like multiple ESO+ accounts active since the start, or paying for Early Access in T&L + Battle Pass).

Just as I'm not a fan of T&L's auction house structure (though it is completely possible to fully participate in it without swiping), I'm also not a fan of gambling crates (to which ignoring doesn't harm my ESO experience).

FYI: There is absolutely no gear in the free or paid Battlepass in T&L. Not sure where you got that from. It's a f2p game with no monthly sub option. Like ZOS, they're in this to make profit and there's nothing wrong with that as long as I can have fun playing either game and not be forced to support monetization elements I don't care for.

Hahahahahahahahaha!

Dude...I get your explanation but...

The battle pass that you pay money for gives you a currency that will let you buy gear on the AH and that is pay to win no matter how you slice it....I can link many video that explain just how pay to win the game is but we both know these will be edited or removed...I mean T&L has been called the most P2W game since Lostark it's right up there with Gehshin Impact.

My point being that the hypercompetitives in ESO are going to look hypocritical as hell boosting and playing this type of game after shrieking "Earn It!!!" to the casuals players of this game for over a decade....I mean people have gotten death threats in this game for simply riding a Radiant Apex mount...if you dare suggest that maybe Expansion Dungeons should have a story mode where you can Bring NPC's so more people can experience the content you get ridiculed by the content creators and some of the forum goers of here...

But lets play a P2W game where we can buy our gear

Classic.

It always cracks me up when people make claims without research. Anyone who has played T&L can tell you that it is IMPOSSIBLE to actually buy gear in the game with currency.

The only things being sold are plans, plans of which you would find on games like Warframe. You need to obtain all of the materials to craft whatever it is you have a plan for, and those materials are gate-kept by the hardest content or the longest grinds.

Claiming that T&L is a P2W title is nothing short of comedy especially coming from a game that sold 30% mitigation in the Crown Store for years, a game that sells blatant P2W items in the form of mythics, and new classes that shoot giant AoE death rays while every other class we had were fighting with horse blinders on.

LPapirius · October 4

Warhawke_80 wrote: »

hiyde wrote: »

Warhawke_80 wrote: »

Dude no offense...but looking over your post ...you sound like a commercial for Throne and Liberty...I just don't think you're going to move a lot of people over to a pay to win Asian MMO that has gear vending machines in way of the Battlepass....as they typically don't do well in the west and T&L has bombed in Korea so I don't see it taking the west by storm

I don't think T&L is an ESO killer and so far I am seeing zero impact on number of members online during primetime in my ESO guilds. (PC-NA)

That said, every MMO gotta monetize somehow and many of them do it in ways people aren't big fans of (for me, that includes T&L *and* ESO). It doesn't stop me from playing either game, I just don't participate in the monetization elements that I don't like, while supporting the games in the ways I prefer to (like multiple ESO+ accounts active since the start, or paying for Early Access in T&L + Battle Pass).

Just as I'm not a fan of T&L's auction house structure (though it is completely possible to fully participate in it without swiping), I'm also not a fan of gambling crates (to which ignoring doesn't harm my ESO experience).

FYI: There is absolutely no gear in the free or paid Battlepass in T&L. Not sure where you got that from. It's a f2p game with no monthly sub option. Like ZOS, they're in this to make profit and there's nothing wrong with that as long as I can have fun playing either game and not be forced to support monetization elements I don't care for.

Hahahahahahahahaha!

Dude...I get your explanation but...

The battle pass that you pay money for gives you a currency that will let you buy gear on the AH and that is pay to win no matter how you slice it....I can link many video that explain just how pay to win the game is but we both know these will be edited or removed...I mean T&L has been called the most P2W game since Lostark it's right up there with Gehshin Impact.

My point being that the hypercompetitives in ESO are going to look hypocritical as hell boosting and playing this type of game after shrieking "Earn It!!!" to the casuals players of this game for over a decade....I mean people have gotten death threats in this game for simply riding a Radiant Apex mount...if you dare suggest that maybe Expansion Dungeons should have a story mode where you can Bring NPC's so more people can experience the content you get ridiculed by the content creators and some of the forum goers of here...

But lets play a P2W game where we can buy our gear

Classic.

The plague of disconnecting issues and the severe lag if we're lucky enough to stay in game is pointing us to having no other option but to play other games.

LadyGP · October 4

XSTRONG wrote: »

Population can be shrinking because people have been playing this game for to long now.

For the past 1 or 2 month im only login in to Eso because of my guild if it wasnt for my guild i would probably be afk now.

The game is not bad in my opinion but there is so many more better games out there then doing same old over and over again in Eso.

Performance is terrible in ESO as of late and with the lack of response/acknowledgment from ZoS (they literally just made an update that essentially blamed it on things outside their control) and with the new games coming out everyone is jumping ship.

Lack of action to problems will catch up to you at some point. I think that time has arrived.

MISTFORMBZZZ · October 4

Please stay with the topic before zos is shutting this thread down like they did with others.

I agree with all youre saying but since this is a hot topic i can kinda imagine they are just looking for a reason.

Specially since more and more threads like mine coming up :

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/666867/where-is-everyone#latest

LadyGP · October 4

Is this not on topic though? The OP is asking for them to do something. One could argue that "something" is to finally address the server performance?

LadyGP · October 4

Either or cross play would be awesome but again highly unlikely as something they would be able to implement with the current Engine being so old.

It's just not as easy as clicking a box and saying everyone gets to play together now. The networking side of it has to be a nightmare with the Hero Engine.