Hardened Ward heal making it to live is a mistake and needs to be changed

xylena_lazarow

Jsmalls wrote: »

But a 14-16k "heal" is not out of line and I think rather balanced

No, shields aren't heals. Shields are preloaded mitigation that can be used both proactively and reactively. That's massively powerful and massively different from what things like Coag Blood or Healthy Offering do. The intended balance was that shields can preload but thus recover worse, while burst heals can't preload but they recover much better.

Ward both preloads and recovers. Proactive and reactive in a single bar slot, spammable, unconditional. No drawback.

Jsmalls

@xylena_lazarow

You're ignoring that they don't benefit from block mitigation and that they expire.

You're also ignoring that they are the WORST scaling form of defense in a 1vX scenario due to this.

You're also ignoring that they scale off of the less effective stat Magicka (and health) versus scaling on spell damage, crit chance, crit healing, minor mending, healing done, healing received, Support Passives etc etc etc. They also "force" you to slot a Red CP star that only effects when it is up versus your health as a whole.

So not no drawback. I agree that some of the weakness from shield was removed. Id also like to recognize that Sorc shields were NOT in a good place in U40 or the past like 2-3+ years and that something needed to be done. Just look at the versatility and synergy Arcanist shields have...

xylena_lazarow

Jsmalls wrote: »

You're ignoring that they don't benefit from block mitigation and that they expire. You're also ignoring that they are the WORST scaling form of defense in a 1vX scenario... Just look at the versatility and synergy Arcanist shields have

1) block-shielding is surprisingly effective at dealing with incoming damage that exceeds your shield size while you have unblockable damage sources on you like dot stacks, you should try it sometime

2) preloaded mitigation is incredibly powerful in 1vX scenarios, players have been 1vXing on shields since launch

3) I'm not sure where you're getting your ideas on Arc, which needs to give up damage for max hp just to make the initial 1 second of Impervious the same size as what Hardened gets for 6 seconds (and Hardened gets it by stacking a stat that also increases damage while benefitting from 31% worth of multipliers that offset max mag's relative inefficiency compared to pen or wd). Arc also needs to charge up Crux to get the burst heal, which is a single use heal that cannot be spammed, unlike the unconditionally spammable Hardened heal. Saving Crux for Impervious also means you can't use it elsewhere.

KainedED

Sorc did not need an instant cast burst heal or a heal on ward.

Legitimately with streak being the most powerful engagement & escape tool in the game all sorc needed was scaling on dark deal.

Sorc already has an insane amount of built in base tooltip damage on abilities like curse and ESPECIALLY Crystal Frag. All these buffs have done is put them on the insane levels of DK & NB.

You can say " yeah well broken SSS Tier class has XYZ " but the reality is that doesn't not make those classes abilities dumb as hell. All it means is your class now contributes to the silly levels of broken some classes have due to poor design choices and balancing by the development team.

noteable examples most recently of this involve:

Templar getting a HoT on Rune ( already one of the most tanky classes)

Sorc getting minor force AND Berserk on Dark Deal ( already one of the highest damage classes in the entire game)

Nightblades 57th consecutive buff ( you already know )

DK sustain buffs ( already a very loaded classes jack of all trades with virtually no weaknesses)

Necro getting nuked on harmony & graveyard in the same patch ( RIP Sweet prince you were already in the dumpster )

Necro getting nuked on blastbones and being given a Best Value version of blastbones to replace it (. YOU CANT KEEP GETTING AWAY WITH THIS)

Turtle_Bot

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Xzysts wrote: »

Insightful, but what are your thoughts and recommended change? Truly, I am interested in this conversation... In essence Sorc is relying on the ability to remain vigilant in spamming its shield. The thought of it is to be proactive vs reactive towards the dmg.

Completely remove the heal, full duration 15k shields that activate relevant passives are fine on their own. Staple a double bar major crit chance buff to a core class skill like Crystal or whatever, like what they did with NB cloak (lol). Now Sorcs have a free bar slot to put a burst heal like Vibrant Shroud, or start stacking Resto Healing Ward again (a properly balanced healy shield), or slot a HoT skill like Vigor, and so on. Their power ceiling wouldn't really drop all that much, but the proactive and reactive components of their kit would be better in line with the rest of the game.

Thankyou for finally putting forward a potential solution (sorry if you put it forward before and I missed it, but all the back and forth on this thread completely buried it if it was mentioned earlier).

Unfortunately, this is what this thread has been missing this entire time with everyone back and forth trying to big note themselves with cmx or statements or whatever just to complain about/defend ward but the only proposed solution put forward before this by those who have been the biggest complainers of wards was barely 1 line saying "make it a HoT". No explanation as to how it would help/change things, no examples of what effects such a change would have, just more and more complaining, arguing and accusations.

And to those who will inevitably say that I was doing the same and not putting ideas forward, I put forward my own idea of replacing bound armor/morphs passive max stat bonus with major prophecy/savagery instead with explanations as to how it would be effective at toning down wards peak potential (15% lower max mag + 2% less mag recovery which equals a 15% drop in wards peak power when scaling off max mag (which is allowing the "full damage unkillable" build or the ward ends up scaling off health and the build becomes another generic "tank with no damage" build), but all that got completely ignored in favor of more back and forth of "but ward is completely busted and needs immediate attention/addressing and here is more cmx/videos to prove so" and "lets wait and see what happens and what ZOS does"...

On to the proposed change you've mentioned, I can actually get behind this idea and can see where you're going with it. Maybe keep a small HoT on it to keep it as the proactive defense of the class kit, the same way HoTs are for other classes.
It's technically a small enough adjustment (that includes a give and take) that keeps the class in a similar spot overall that also reduces the individual peak that is overtuned.
It also frees up a bar slot (by finally giving the crit chance based class the named crit chance buff in their class kit allowing the class to finally untie itself from camo hunter/inner light) that allows the class to actually slot a reactive defensive ability (burst heal) or utility ability (RaT/elude/execute) without being forced to give up something else more important.

It's actually very close to what I was proposing to buff sorc pre-U41:

- The above mentioned (in other spoiler) changes for bound armor/morphs.
- 2 mechanical changes to lightning form/morphs that address the generic changes that were made to DoT tick rates and melee attack range that were extremely harsh and massive indirect nerfs to that ability in particular (hence why sorcs run chudan to get major resolve instead).
- Yes I also asked for a non-pet burst heal, but the class actually got that with vibrant shroud, which could maybe use a very tiny buff to its base heal value of no more than 5% and closer to 2%, but is in a fairly good spot as is.
- Tidy up some of the class passives, something ZOS has started to do with their changes to expert summoner, but they haven't done the main passives that actually needed adjusting (capacitor and daedric protection where they are 2 passives that when combined are granting what other classes get from just 1 passive).
- Fix/buff/rework lightning splash (The worst PvE DoT) to have that ability be for no-pet sorcs what prey buffed scamp is for pet sorcs in PvE (The radius change was not what this ability needed).

My proposed (pre-U41) changes were all about:
- Giving sorc a reliable burst heal (done via vibrant shroud).
- Freeing up a bar slot (still not done, class still tied to inner light/camo hunter or pots to get major prophecy)
- Making lightning form (both morphs) a real and viable option again (freeing the class from being forced to run chudan)
- Bringing the remaining outdated class passives (capacitor/deadric protection) back up to par with other classes passives (still not done, these need to be combined and a new passive in place of capacitor that increases proc chance/damage for concussed - sorcs elemental themed status effect)
- Making no-pet sorc more on par with pet sorc for PvE (work in progress, needs more targeted buffs to specifically lightning splash).

Turtle_Bot

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Jsmalls wrote: »

But a 14-16k "heal" is not out of line and I think rather balanced

No, shields aren't heals. Shields are preloaded mitigation that can be used both proactively and reactively. That's massively powerful and massively different from what things like Coag Blood or Healthy Offering do. The intended balance was that shields can preload but thus recover worse, while burst heals can't preload but they recover much better.

Ward both preloads and recovers. Proactive and reactive in a single bar slot, spammable, unconditional. No drawback.

This argument went out the window when block mitigation was allowed to be utilized at insane values alongside burst heals.
Block casting burst heals completely nullifies this argument because up to 98% mitigation is always going to be significantly more effective than a shield that can (at max) get 50% mitigation, but still takes all the damage anyway. Even a more average block mitigation of 70% (as I put forward in my calcs earlier) still achieves insane effective health per second that is more than comparable with what ward can provide, especially once you remove 5-10% off the peak of wards and change that to raw damage (that buffs heals).

Galeriano2

StaticWave wrote: »

Galeriano2 wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Galeriano2 wrote: »

Here is a question. If that sorc according to Your claims was experienced and he had such an OP defensive ability in his kit than why You were able to push him so heavily into defense that as You Yourself said quote "The sorc was on his back foot the entire time with low chance to win"?

Do you want my ESO resume or something? If this were a real game I'd post my ELO here.

Broken doesn't mean unbeatable. Ward gives Sorc an egregious healing kit advantage, but it can still be outplayed.

How about this. We leave Ward as is, and bring back pre-nerf Shield Breaker with the Oblivion damage. We're also gonna bring back Oblivion enchants proccing off full penetration flat scaling MDW bleed ticks. Deal? Dark Deal?

I just asked a simple question which.

If ward gives sorc egregious healing kit adventage than why You were able to keep better defense and offense while using Your defensive abilities less?

Thing with bringing back pre nerf shieldbreaker and other mentioned things is that You would also have to bring some of the pre nerf sorc features that pushed devs to releasing shieldbreaker and at that point I dont think healing on hardened ward would be the biggest issue.

This shield version is stronger than any previous shield version because of the burst heal. Shield breaker wouldnt do anything.

I disagree. Crit immune shields without cap that lasted for 15-20 seconds were the strongest version.

Galeriano2

StaticWave wrote: »

Galeriano2 wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Galeriano2 wrote: »

CMX You posted and commentary to it actually suggest that magsorc is not that great.

My Arc had to use Impervious Ward, Vigor, and Blood Craze to stay healed. 3 buttons.

The Sorc only had to use Hardened Ward, and did it against higher incoming damage. These Sorcs I'm fighting aren't using dots so they're not getting any Surge procs when they go defensive, it's all Ward spam. 1 button.

Hardened Ward is stronger than Impervious Ward, Vigor, and a standard HoT combined.

Remember when people were crying for Impervious nerfs?

And? Was sorc You using ward outside of GCD?

The thing with one button argument is that it's not looking at the bigger picture like rest of the toolkit. Ward doesn't seem to be stronger than Imprevious ward, vigor and standard HoT combined if You were able to push that sorc heavily into ward spam while maintaining Your defense only periodically. It looks like You with using Your defenses only once in a while which allowed You to spend more time on dealing damage had better defense than sorc that was spamming ward for majority of a fight.

Here is a question. If that sorc according to Your claims was experienced and he had such an OP defensive ability in his kit than why You were able to push him so heavily into defense that as You Yourself said quote "The sorc was on his back foot the entire time with low chance to win"?

Okay now remove Vigor and standard HoT on that Arcanist, and let's see whether Impervious Ward or Hardened Ward are stronger?

Also, I tanked 8k DPS with Surge, Vigor, and Ward. Arcanist can maybe do it sure, but it definitely doesn't have Sorc damage. So which is worse? An Arcanist that's super tanky but has no damage unless in 3 procs, or a Sorc that's also super tanky but actually has damage without procs, and even more damage with procs. Pick your poison, and I hope you pick the obvious one.

And what will the result of that comparision prove excatly? That magsorc designed to have strong shield and basically pushed to rely with his defense on that shield have a said shield stronger than a class with wide variety of defense? If there is anyone to blame for current state of sorc's shield it will be arcanist because that class started the trend of shields that have burst heal added to them.

If sorc is so great right now than where are all those sorcs demolishing everyone? It has been over 2 weeks and I don't see them.

xylena_lazarow

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

This argument went out the window when block mitigation was allowed to be utilized at insane values alongside burst heals

Blocking doesn't preload mitigation. You can only heal up after the fact. You can't hit full damage while holding block because you're not attack weaving. You can't move at full speed. Investing in block mitigation has high opportunity cost, unless you're slotting Bound Aegis... which of all the insane things about shield sorcs right now might somehow be the craziest that they even get easy access to block mitigation. I also addressed block-shielding in #454 above if that was a doubt.

Galeriano2

StaticWave wrote: »

Galeriano2 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Galeriano2 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Galeriano2 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Here are 2 more examples of Hardened Ward being absolutely broken even with lower max mag. I got my friend to hop on Warden and DK in a full pressure build. I was in Malubeth/Rally/Wretched/SSC with 35.6k HP and VAMP 2. Here are the results of the DPS test:

Warden DPS and my healing:






DK DPS and my healing:






In both tests, Hardened Ward scaled with max HP instead, and at 35.6k HP and VAMP 2, I was able to tank up to 8.4k DPS for a sustained 2 minute fight. Keep in mind, this is just with Ward, Vigor, and Surge. I wasn't weaving Blood Magic healing, dodge rolling, or using Streak.

So as I've stated earlier in this thread, pressure builds CANNOT kill a Sorc anymore. The only chance of killing a Sorc is with perfectly timed burst to 100-0 them. You cannot do that vs a good player. If the counter play is so difficult to pull off, then is it really counter play?

Those are still pure duels and the thing is magsorc was capable to survive lots of pressure in a staged duel even before U41. Ward change didn't suddenly turn magsorc overnight from dying to a sneeze to surviving 7k DPS. Screenshots above show that sorc just joined the club of setups being able to completly turtle up in bergama. That alone doesn't make it top PvP class for U41 and doesn't prove it is top PvP class.

No matter how many duel screenshots You will provide it really won't matter in determining wheter magsorc is or isn't as strong as You suggest in entirety of PvP.

And if you think any class other than Sorc in a full damage build can sit and face tank a DK with Zaan, mDW, Vate, without cleansing anything, and not break a sweat, then you are deeply in denial.

Why don’t you prove that to me if you want to defend this ability so much? If you’re on PC NA, please pick a time, go to stormhaven on other classes in a full dmg build, and tank 8.4k dps for me. I’ll have all my friends duel you.

StaticWave wrote: »

Galeriano2 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Here are 2 more examples of Hardened Ward being absolutely broken even with lower max mag. I got my friend to hop on Warden and DK in a full pressure build. I was in Malubeth/Rally/Wretched/SSC with 35.6k HP and VAMP 2. Here are the results of the DPS test:

Warden DPS and my healing:






DK DPS and my healing:






In both tests, Hardened Ward scaled with max HP instead, and at 35.6k HP and VAMP 2, I was able to tank up to 8.4k DPS for a sustained 2 minute fight. Keep in mind, this is just with Ward, Vigor, and Surge. I wasn't weaving Blood Magic healing, dodge rolling, or using Streak.

So as I've stated earlier in this thread, pressure builds CANNOT kill a Sorc anymore. The only chance of killing a Sorc is with perfectly timed burst to 100-0 them. You cannot do that vs a good player. If the counter play is so difficult to pull off, then is it really counter play?

Those are still pure duels and the thing is magsorc was capable to survive lots of pressure in a staged duel even before U41. Ward change didn't suddenly turn magsorc overnight from dying to a sneeze to surviving 7k DPS. Screenshots above show that sorc just joined the club of setups being able to completly turtle up in bergama. That alone doesn't make it top PvP class for U41 and doesn't prove it is top PvP class.

No matter how many duel screenshots You will provide it really won't matter in determining wheter magsorc is or isn't as strong as You suggest in entirety of PvP.

No magsorc or any class could survive 8k dps last patch in a full dmg build. I duel and test DPS more than anyone here so you can’t fool me with lies lol.

We literally have a dueling guild that host dueling tournaments in no rules and nobody there could tank 8k dps in a full dmg build either.

So you can accept that Sorc is currently overperforming, or you can deny it and the class stays broken for several patches. It doesnt hurt me at all. I only benefit from this, but i’m still trying to be objective.

First of all what is a full damage build, because wearing malubeth and saying about full dmg build sounds wierd to me. Could I make 50k HP warden with malubeth, rallying cry and high resistances and claim I am running in full dmg build? Because if yes than surviving 8k DPS wouldn't be an issue in a "full dmg build".

Second thing is we don't know how these duels linked by You were actually looking. 8k DPS means nothing without context. Like I don't know wheter enemies were just parsing You like a dummy without burst windows combined with stuns, interrupts and trying to weaken Your sustain and defense from ice staff HA or were they actually trying. Pure 8k DPS claim doesn't say much.

Thirdly it's getting tiresome to continously point out that You are putting words into my mouth that I didn't said. I am not defending a hardened ward neither I am saying that magsorc is or isn't broken atm. All I am saying that I still havn't seen a magsorcs overtaking PvP and demolishing everyone which should happen if I was to completly belive this thread.

I appreciate that You have so much faith in me to say quote "you can accept that Sorc is currently overperforming, or you can deny it and the class stays broken for several patches" but I really don't think devs are relying on my opinions so much to balance the game purely around them. Sometimes most objective thing to do is to wait and see how things develop instead of relying on subjective thought of being objective.

We will not see any changes until U42 anyway due to ZoS's policy of dealing with combat changes so waiting is only thing we have and all the passion that was put into this thread would be way better spent at the end of U41 when all the opinions would be more clear and easier to prove which would also make them potentially more impactfull.

30k stam, 110% crit dmg, Major Berserk, 16k pen, 6k weapon dmg, 40% crit chance, and Essence thief. Good enough of a full dmg build for u?

A DK with Zaan/mDW/Vate parsing and CCing me off cooldown means nothing? Do you understand how high 8k DPS is? It’s hard to explain to you when you don’t look at CMX lol.

That is not the answer to my question.

I perfectly understand how high 8k DPS is in PvP. I also perfectly understand how big differene there is between 8k DPS made by person who is actively trying to kill You and a person who is just parsing You like a dummy and cmx alone is not saying much about which type of fight it was.

You clearly don't understand how high 8k DPS is in PvP if you say that lol. Parsing someone with CC off cooldown is actively trying to kill you. I don't care how you define it.

In a typical fight where 2 players are trading, a high DPS fight is usually around 4k-5k DPS, with 5k DPS being on the really high end. In the same build, that player can reach 6-7k DPS if he's not being attacked.

The point is, it doesn't matter lol. If you can't survive 5k DPS, then you can't survive 6-7k DPS.

I do understand what 8k DPS means. It seems though that You don't understand that every class properly geared can survive 8k DPS when turtling up, focusing purely on defense for entirety of a duel while being parsed like a dummy. And the arguments about full damage build are just silly. 70-80% uptimes on malubeth even against ranged warden? Come on. We both know these were more of a staged duels to prove Your point. You could build almost every class similarly with SSC, malubeth, rallying cry and other set of choice and survive similar "duel" as a "full damage build". You were claiming that You're trying to be objective but I have increasing doubts about that.

xylena_lazarow

Galeriano2 wrote: »

I do understand what 8k DPS means. It seems though that You don't understand that every class properly geared can survive 8k DPS when turtling up, focusing purely on defense for entirety of a duel while being parsed like a dummy.

Can you show CMX of another class damage build doing this so we can compare it to Sorc?

Galeriano2

StaticWave wrote: »

Also, isn't it funny how even when you provide multiple screenshots of CMX to show the tanking capability of Ward, videos showing why Ward is overperforming, videos of well-known and strong Sorc mains who think the skill overperforms, and some people still go through mental gymnastics to come up with arguments to defend the skill, like:

1) "We need more data" - while data is plentiful and have been provided multiple times
2) "Other classes can do it too" - completely ignoring the massive GCD and damage stacking advantage on Sorc vs other classes
3) "I haven't seen that many sorcs" - totally anecdotal and has no meaningful substance. I don't see that many NBs either, but that doesn't mean they don't exist
4) "Duels don't count" - meanwhile most of the complaints about other classes are in fact also talking about 1v1s, but somehow Sorc gets a free pass lmao
5) "I still kill plenty of sorcs" - Bad players die regardless of class, and is a non factor in an argument about balance
6) "We need more time to see if Sorc does dominate" - go back to point #3.

It's either OP or it isn't. Anything in the middle is mental gymnastics and aren't valid arguments for combat balance.

What is funny though is argumentation boiling down to:

1) I had duels so it has to be nerfed immidiately.

As for answers to Your points:

1) We do need more data. Fact that You provided data that You think is reliable doesn't make that data completly reliable.
2)Still other classes can do it too. And they often have better and more well rounded kits. One ability is just a part of a setup.
3)Nodoby said he doesn't see lot of sorcs, people were saying they don't see lots of sorcs dominating in PvP. Big difference
4) "Duels don't count" argumentation is also used against other classes when mainly duel arguments are being brought up
5)Me personally I also still kill plenty of decent sorcs. For now they don't seem that much more dangerous to me after patch
6)We need more time. Patience is a virtue and ZoS will not change anything until U42 anyway no matter what we say.

One thing is single ability being OP and the other is class kit being OP. You can find abilities that could be called OP on almost every class atm but somehow not every class is called OP.

Galeriano2

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Galeriano2 wrote: »

I do understand what 8k DPS means. It seems though that You don't understand that every class properly geared can survive 8k DPS when turtling up, focusing purely on defense for entirety of a duel while being parsed like a dummy.

Can you show CMX of another class damage build doing this so we can compare it to Sorc?

As long as You will be up to making 8k DPS duelling setup on PTS that stays in meele and parses enemy like a dummy I am up to making a setup with malubeth, SSC and rallying cry that will be able to withstand it on any class

StaticWave

Jsmalls wrote: »

@StaticWave

So I talked to Felon about these duels, he said the ones you listed were straight DPS parses and not a real fight so I don't think there is anything TOO insane there, going full defensive in a fight isn't an issue. Also id like to clarify this was done with a ward scaling off of 36k~ health like you said... Which is not a strong ward, I wish you would have listed the values for the ward but with the heal being 3-5k (with really high crit healing AND major vitality) and I imagine a 9.5k ward with major Vitality (from monster set) maybe that's a 10.5k ward (you can confirm or I can mimic it to see).

But a 14-16k "heal" is not out of line and I think rather balanced... Its when it's reaching 20k for one button that it's a problem.

So what's this trying to prove? 36k health gives a lot of room for error and buffer time to heal. And ward at those numbers isn't out of line. Vigor and crit surge was 30% of your healing so it couldn't be done without those.

At the end of the day I'm not saying ward is balanced (at the upper ranges) because it isn't. But what you showed is not an overperforming ward at all. Felon also said you had duels where it was a real fight, you were putting up 3.5k~ DPS to his 7.5k~ at the time. He said you guys stalemated. Assuming you were using the same setup as above you'd have had blood magic, crit surge, vigor, malubeth, and a mediocre version of ward. So far from "just using ward" and not an accurate representation of what ward is able to absorb.

I'm not involved in the dueling community so I'm not going to pretend I know every stat about it. But the test you put up is no different than U40 Ward (about 15k ward size versus 11k + 4k heal) and seems like an exaggeration of what ward is actually doing.

Fe7on talking about a potential ban on Ward for his dueling tourney

TechMaybeHic

LOL Back when shields were not impacted by battlespirit and streak did not have ramping cost; the claim was to beat the sorc wasto run them out ouf stamina. Problem was; with them only needing to magicka stack and no need to bother with crit resist like every other class, good luck eating their damage or trying to dodge and block your way out of stamina yourself doing so.

Its a lot like that now, in a 1 v 1 situation. Maybe now that wardens exist where they didn't back then. But back then, wings reflected and even reflected meteor so there were DKs at least. Im not sure a Warden these days has the ability for more than weathering the storm for a while.

Mass battles; you can still run them out of stamina by mass pressure without them being able to pressure back

StaticWave

Galeriano2 wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Galeriano2 wrote: »

I do understand what 8k DPS means. It seems though that You don't understand that every class properly geared can survive 8k DPS when turtling up, focusing purely on defense for entirety of a duel while being parsed like a dummy.

Can you show CMX of another class damage build doing this so we can compare it to Sorc?

As long as You will be up to making 8k DPS duelling setup on PTS that stays in meele and parses enemy like a dummy I am up to making a setup with malubeth, SSC and rallying cry that will be able to withstand it on any class

Do it. Fight them too while you're at it.

xylena_lazarow

Galeriano2 wrote: »

As long as You will be up to making 8k DPS duelling setup on PTS that stays in meele and parses enemy like a dummy I am up to making a setup with malubeth, SSC and rallying cry that will be able to withstand it on any class

I must have missed something. Malubeth? The hell? You can just give us a Superstar or UESP summary.

The two case studies I gave were non-staged open world 1v1s against the standard Chudan/Alfiq/Rally damage build.

Galeriano2

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Galeriano2 wrote: »

As long as You will be up to making 8k DPS duelling setup on PTS that stays in meele and parses enemy like a dummy I am up to making a setup with malubeth, SSC and rallying cry that will be able to withstand it on any class

I must have missed something. Malubeth? The hell? You can just give us a Superstar or UESP summary.

The two case studies I gave were non-staged open world 1v1s against the standard Chudan/Alfiq/Rally damage build.

Yeah You've missed something. Discussion about 8k DPS was not about Your "two case studies" but static's duels where he survived 8k DPS and he was using malubeth in that duels.

Seems like You lost the track of different topics in this thread.

xylena_lazarow

Galeriano2 wrote: »

Discussion about 8k DPS was not about Your "two case studies" but static's duels where he survived 8k DPS and he was using malubeth in that duels.

I'm fine throwing any tank set data in the trash, but you keep complaining about "staged duels" and sarcasitcally disregarding my wild duel case studies, so I'm really not sure what you're looking for. You also have not provided any of your own data to support your arguments, despite emphasizing the importance of collecting more data before acting on Ward.

mdb800

As someone who spent years playing sorc as a main; I can tell you that all the complaints I am seeing stem from a the psychological fear invoked when you see an enemy player jump from 20 percent health to full health instantly. Words like "broken" come to mind. Here's the thing: 9/10 times they are extremely sweating and when their resources are gone they are not going to survive. So, for all those "unkillable" moments, those are probably players that probably would have gone down in 3 hits or less ( by the way, we almost always get 1-2shotted without shields in melee range of a dd attack). Sorcs have been nerfed to the ground for years and most non mains didn't even notice most of the time.

" Why don't they die in 2 seconds like they used to"? Look: when something is noticably changed, human brains assume a negative and seeks and finds evidence of of it automatically without consideration of other factors"

I am sorry, I am not calling you all "liars" but I am almost certain there is a lot you are ommiting in your findings, like the fact that maintaining a shield takes invaluable time away from other casts. Or, like I said; hardened ward not casting -after getting knocked down or off balance ( nobody mentions this)

Honestly I like the changes: might play eso more. Because even though player input is paramount it is still vulnerable to confirmation bias and I see the devs here realize that. If it were a 100 percent player democracy , there would be no semblance of balance; everyone would only group with you if you only got 7/7 impen;

It's a minor burst heal attached to a a class skill; everyone has em now. Why should the sorcs be the only class without it?

I see what the devs were thinking and to me , it makes sense.
Now: if a set comes out that decreases the cost of shields: then I will believe you

Galeriano2

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Galeriano2 wrote: »

Discussion about 8k DPS was not about Your "two case studies" but static's duels where he survived 8k DPS and he was using malubeth in that duels.

I'm fine throwing any tank set data in the trash, but you keep complaining about "staged duels" and sarcasitcally disregarding my wild duel case studies, so I'm really not sure what you're looking for. You also have not provided any of your own data to support your arguments, despite emphasizing the importance of collecting more data before acting on Ward.

Seems like You lost the track of different topic in this thread even more than I thought.

I answered to Your case studies and I even asked follow up questions. And I got pretty elusive answers if I had to be honest. You seem to be mixing multiple separate discussions into one.

What arguments of mine would You like me to prove? Please be specific.

xylena_lazarow

Galeriano2 wrote: »

What arguments of mine would You like me to prove? Please be specific.

Please show CMX of a non-Sorc damage build tanking 5k+ dps in a duel using only 1 healing skill.

Galeriano2

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Galeriano2 wrote: »

What arguments of mine would You like me to prove? Please be specific.

Please show CMX of a non-Sorc damage build tanking 5k+ dps in a duel using only 1 healing skill.

That is not answer to my question.

Let me repeat my question.

What arguments of mine would You like me to prove? Please be specific.

Name an argument that I've made You want me to prove. Your request above does not contain any argument that I've made.

xylena_lazarow

Galeriano2 wrote: »

What arguments of mine would You like me to prove? Please be specific.

You claim that any other class can do what Sorc is doing defensively, i.e. tanking a high damage opponent doing 5k+ dps in a 1v1 with only 1 healing skill, on a damage build with two 5pc offensive sets such as Alfiq/Rallying, no tank sets, 30k hp or lower. Please show evidence of this in CMX with opposing dps and your hps.

Static and I have both given plenty of data. You ask for data, but it seems you have no data, only rhetoric.

Galeriano2

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Galeriano2 wrote: »

What arguments of mine would You like me to prove? Please be specific.

You claim that any other class can do what Sorc is doing defensively, i.e. tanking a high damage opponent doing 5k+ dps in a 1v1 with only 1 healing skill, on a damage build with two 5pc offensive sets such as Alfiq/Rallying, no tank sets, 30k hp or lower. Please show evidence of this in CMX with opposing dps and your hps.

Static and I have both given plenty of data. You ask for data, but it seems you have no data, only rhetoric.

I never made that claim. I would reccomend You to read what I wrote more carefully.

And if we want to be precise You never proved that sorc can do this either because Your case studies were not containing cmx of sorc's side of the story so we don't know for example how much healing he recived from surge or if he had vigor or not. You ask others to provide prove to claims they never made when You can't even fully support Your own claims.

xylena_lazarow

Galeriano2 wrote: »

I never made that claim. I would reccomend You to read what I wrote more carefully. And if we want to be precise You never proved that sorc can do this either because Your case studies were not containing cmx of sorc's side of the story so we don't know for example how much healing he recived from surge or if he had vigor or not. You ask others to provide prove to claims they never made when You can't even fully support Your own claims.

This isn't the gotcha you think it is in a game without proper publicly available data, you're basically just calling me a liar and moving the goalposts. I went over why Surge wasn't a factor, and they were both using Bound Aegis not Vigor. You asked me to state my demand clearly, so I did, now it's your turn. State your claim concisely, back it up with CMX.

You have not once posted any CMX. You ask for data, and still have no data yourself.

StaticWave

@Galeriano @xylena_lazarow Please note that I was tanking 7k DPS with just Ward, Vigor, and Surge.



Top 4 healing were:

1) Ward - 3052 HPS
2) Vigor - 1962 HPS
3) Ward heal - 1038 HPS
4) Surge - 821 HPS

I also traded blows with a Relequen/Kjalnar/Asylum Warden whom could kill me under 30 seconds last patch. This patch we stalemated, but both of us could kill each other if we mess up. Keep in mind, he was in a full proc build, while I was in Rally/Wretched/Malu/SSC, a stat build. I also STOOD INSIDE his Northern Storm and tanked it with Rele ticking on me. No Streak needed.

So let me ask you this. If Sorc can tank that kind of damage, then is Streak deserving of a nerf since people are adamant Ward should stay? We can’t have both Streak + Ward, because that’s NB with Cloak + Offering and we all know NB is broken.

xylena_lazarow

@StaticWave can you get one like that using only Ward and Surge?

Still interesting because a full damage Arc isn't tanking 7k with just Impervious + Vigor.

katorga

Been playing with and against hardened this week. Meh. Makes mag sorc equal to the other classes with their massive burst heals.

StaticWave

katorga wrote: »

Been playing with and against hardened this week. Meh. Makes mag sorc equal to the other classes with their massive burst heals.

No, it doesn’t 🤣 It makes sorc better