Hardened Ward heal making it to live is a mistake and needs to be changed

Bushido2513

Tinkerhorn wrote: »

It is overtuned and it's unhealthy for the game. Having such tankiness on a class with great mobility and solid ranged damage is just bad form in terms of balancing.
I appreciate magsorcs were not in a good spot for the most part before the update but it has swung too far the other way.
I wasn't initially going to comment and just see how it progresses until the next update but with the huge uptake in sorcs rather than the population plateuing after an initial spike, it's causing a lot of unenjoyable engagements and they've become the most common.
I don't much care for 1v1's or smallscale as 95% of those I played with have already quit the game. I just want to log in, have a couple of hours fun and log out but Sorcs, nightblades, and supertanks seem to be the name of the zerging game now. Difference is most nbs are fairly easy to kill or scare off, and most highly tanky players including dks and wardens are fairly impotent outside of their damage windows for the most part. Sorcs are packing a lot of damage for their survivability and manoeuvrability. The class changes has elevated a lot of players even though they're brand new to sorc. I'd rather fight a zerg of permacloaking nbs.
At the end of the day a game should set out achieving enjoyment and this certainly is not it. U41 proving to be another awful update as pointed out during the PTS. Just my two cents. Also lag is a lot worse exacerbating the experience.

Appreciate the well rounded feedback. I do think that we're still in the very early stages of seeing what the population will be after it levels off. I've seen all the top classes go through periods of being the new hot thing and it can go up to 6 weeks or so before people get bored of being the same thing they run into. It starts to become like driving a Ferrari and seeing several more on the street. I think people will have their fun and see what the fuss is about then go back to jumping on another class even if just to shake things up a bit.

But yeah if for some reason people just stay on sorc through the whole patch en mass then yeah we'll definitely need to nerf that value

StaticWave

Bushido2513 wrote: »

But yeah if for some reason people just stay on sorc through the whole patch en mass then yeah we'll definitely need to nerf that value

It's going to be a skewed result though. Sorc hasn't been in the spot light for several big updates, so many people aren't going to admit that their class is currently overperforming.

Oblivion_Protocol

StaticWave wrote: »

It's going to be a skewed result though. Sorc hasn't been in the spot light for several big updates, so many people aren't going to admit that their class is currently overperforming.

The result is already skewed. 90% of Sorc mains are currently defending the Hardened Ward changes like there’s a gun to their heads.

StaticWave

At 4:50 seconds, KingofGames83, a well known console streamer who recently transferred to PC NA, also admits all Sorc iterations are overperforming, and he's been a Sorc main for years. He's not the only one. I'm also a Sorc main for 5 years, and I also think this change is too much. I can get a lot more examples of people who agree with me by simply asking in game, but is it really worth it? Not really. What's worth doing though is posting as many evidence as possible here so the right people can take a look @ZOS_Kevin @ZOS_Gilliam

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ft9KDfUQ7V8&t=288s

Zabagad

Tinkerhorn wrote: »

It is overtuned and it's unhealthy for the game. Having such tankiness on a class with great mobility and solid ranged damage is just bad form in terms of balancing.
I appreciate magsorcs were not in a good spot for the most part before the update but it has swung too far the other way.
I wasn't initially going to comment and just see how it progresses until the next update but with the huge uptake in sorcs rather than the population plateuing after an initial spike, it's causing a lot of unenjoyable engagements and they've become the most common.
I don't much care for 1v1's or smallscale as 95% of those I played with have already quit the game. I just want to log in, have a couple of hours fun and log out but Sorcs, nightblades, and supertanks seem to be the name of the zerging game now. Difference is most nbs are fairly easy to kill or scare off, and most highly tanky players including dks and wardens are fairly impotent outside of their damage windows for the most part. Sorcs are packing a lot of damage for their survivability and manoeuvrability. The class changes has elevated a lot of players even though they're brand new to sorc. I'd rather fight a zerg of permacloaking nbs.
At the end of the day a game should set out achieving enjoyment and this certainly is not it. U41 proving to be another awful update as pointed out during the PTS. Just my two cents. Also lag is a lot worse exacerbating the experience.

I agree on most points - only this:
"but with the huge uptake in sorcs rather than the population plateuing after an initial spike,"
is much to early in my opinion.
We have to wait minimum the actual and the next campaign - and then maybe some (almost all?) of the fotm player will switch to something else.
But I wouldn't expect that the population of sorcs is dropping before May.

Oh - and even Bushido said almost the same - I'm not in the same boat with him. I'm fine with nerfing ward earlier then this.
I'm fine with a HoT - I'm fine if they remove the heal and give us major savagery for 6s - I'm fine whatever they do to nerf and end this discussion. Since U35 I never had to feel OP and was always nice to know that many other classes were stronger. I like to be the underdog and not the favorit.

Only thing I really want is that we at the end have still that one free barslot we got with U41.
Now it's vigor which is out - I don't care if it's magelight (or even surge) - but that one barslot gave me so much flexability that I can enjoy sorc now. (My max. magicka is in all builds between 40-50K and yes there are many build options...)

StaticWave

Zabagad wrote: »

Tinkerhorn wrote: »

It is overtuned and it's unhealthy for the game. Having such tankiness on a class with great mobility and solid ranged damage is just bad form in terms of balancing.
I appreciate magsorcs were not in a good spot for the most part before the update but it has swung too far the other way.
I wasn't initially going to comment and just see how it progresses until the next update but with the huge uptake in sorcs rather than the population plateuing after an initial spike, it's causing a lot of unenjoyable engagements and they've become the most common.
I don't much care for 1v1's or smallscale as 95% of those I played with have already quit the game. I just want to log in, have a couple of hours fun and log out but Sorcs, nightblades, and supertanks seem to be the name of the zerging game now. Difference is most nbs are fairly easy to kill or scare off, and most highly tanky players including dks and wardens are fairly impotent outside of their damage windows for the most part. Sorcs are packing a lot of damage for their survivability and manoeuvrability. The class changes has elevated a lot of players even though they're brand new to sorc. I'd rather fight a zerg of permacloaking nbs.
At the end of the day a game should set out achieving enjoyment and this certainly is not it. U41 proving to be another awful update as pointed out during the PTS. Just my two cents. Also lag is a lot worse exacerbating the experience.

I agree on most points - only this:
"but with the huge uptake in sorcs rather than the population plateuing after an initial spike,"
is much to early in my opinion.
We have to wait minimum the actual and the next campaign - and then maybe some (almost all?) of the fotm player will switch to something else.
But I wouldn't expect that the population of sorcs is dropping before May.

Oh - and even Bushido said almost the same - I'm not in the same boat with him. I'm fine with nerfing ward earlier then this.
I'm fine with a HoT - I'm fine if they remove the heal and give us major savagery for 6s - I'm fine whatever they do to nerf and end this discussion. Since U35 I never had to feel OP and was always nice to know that many other classes were stronger. I like to be the underdog and not the favorit.

Only thing I really want is that we at the end have still that one free barslot we got with U41.
Now it's vigor which is out - I don't care if it's magelight (or even surge) - but that one barslot gave me so much flexability that I can enjoy sorc now. (My max. magicka is in all builds between 40-50K and yes there are many build options...)

Not sure why you want to wait more. The class is being acknowledged by many people to be overperforming. Do you think people are just gonna magically hop off it because they get bored lol? If that's the case, then we would see a reduction in NB, but that's definitely not the case for that class. So waiting a few more months is pretty much pointless imo.

Zabagad

StaticWave wrote: »

Zabagad wrote: »

Tinkerhorn wrote: »

It is overtuned and it's unhealthy for the game. Having such tankiness on a class with great mobility and solid ranged damage is just bad form in terms of balancing.
I appreciate magsorcs were not in a good spot for the most part before the update but it has swung too far the other way.
I wasn't initially going to comment and just see how it progresses until the next update but with the huge uptake in sorcs rather than the population plateuing after an initial spike, it's causing a lot of unenjoyable engagements and they've become the most common.
I don't much care for 1v1's or smallscale as 95% of those I played with have already quit the game. I just want to log in, have a couple of hours fun and log out but Sorcs, nightblades, and supertanks seem to be the name of the zerging game now. Difference is most nbs are fairly easy to kill or scare off, and most highly tanky players including dks and wardens are fairly impotent outside of their damage windows for the most part. Sorcs are packing a lot of damage for their survivability and manoeuvrability. The class changes has elevated a lot of players even though they're brand new to sorc. I'd rather fight a zerg of permacloaking nbs.
At the end of the day a game should set out achieving enjoyment and this certainly is not it. U41 proving to be another awful update as pointed out during the PTS. Just my two cents. Also lag is a lot worse exacerbating the experience.

I agree on most points - only this:
"but with the huge uptake in sorcs rather than the population plateuing after an initial spike,"
is much to early in my opinion.
We have to wait minimum the actual and the next campaign - and then maybe some (almost all?) of the fotm player will switch to something else.
But I wouldn't expect that the population of sorcs is dropping before May.

Oh - and even Bushido said almost the same - I'm not in the same boat with him. I'm fine with nerfing ward earlier then this.
I'm fine with a HoT - I'm fine if they remove the heal and give us major savagery for 6s - I'm fine whatever they do to nerf and end this discussion. Since U35 I never had to feel OP and was always nice to know that many other classes were stronger. I like to be the underdog and not the favorit.

Only thing I really want is that we at the end have still that one free barslot we got with U41.
Now it's vigor which is out - I don't care if it's magelight (or even surge) - but that one barslot gave me so much flexability that I can enjoy sorc now. (My max. magicka is in all builds between 40-50K and yes there are many build options...)

Not sure why you want to wait more.

Please read again...

Just in case my english is that bad and the fault is on my side: First part is statistics and what I expect based on my experience with population changes. And then I talk about my personal view - starting with: "I'm fine with nerfing ward earlier then this." And "this" was refering towards the expected population which will not decline before may...

StaticWave

Zabagad wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Zabagad wrote: »

Tinkerhorn wrote: »

It is overtuned and it's unhealthy for the game. Having such tankiness on a class with great mobility and solid ranged damage is just bad form in terms of balancing.
I appreciate magsorcs were not in a good spot for the most part before the update but it has swung too far the other way.
I wasn't initially going to comment and just see how it progresses until the next update but with the huge uptake in sorcs rather than the population plateuing after an initial spike, it's causing a lot of unenjoyable engagements and they've become the most common.
I don't much care for 1v1's or smallscale as 95% of those I played with have already quit the game. I just want to log in, have a couple of hours fun and log out but Sorcs, nightblades, and supertanks seem to be the name of the zerging game now. Difference is most nbs are fairly easy to kill or scare off, and most highly tanky players including dks and wardens are fairly impotent outside of their damage windows for the most part. Sorcs are packing a lot of damage for their survivability and manoeuvrability. The class changes has elevated a lot of players even though they're brand new to sorc. I'd rather fight a zerg of permacloaking nbs.
At the end of the day a game should set out achieving enjoyment and this certainly is not it. U41 proving to be another awful update as pointed out during the PTS. Just my two cents. Also lag is a lot worse exacerbating the experience.

I agree on most points - only this:
"but with the huge uptake in sorcs rather than the population plateuing after an initial spike,"
is much to early in my opinion.
We have to wait minimum the actual and the next campaign - and then maybe some (almost all?) of the fotm player will switch to something else.
But I wouldn't expect that the population of sorcs is dropping before May.

Oh - and even Bushido said almost the same - I'm not in the same boat with him. I'm fine with nerfing ward earlier then this.
I'm fine with a HoT - I'm fine if they remove the heal and give us major savagery for 6s - I'm fine whatever they do to nerf and end this discussion. Since U35 I never had to feel OP and was always nice to know that many other classes were stronger. I like to be the underdog and not the favorit.

Only thing I really want is that we at the end have still that one free barslot we got with U41.
Now it's vigor which is out - I don't care if it's magelight (or even surge) - but that one barslot gave me so much flexability that I can enjoy sorc now. (My max. magicka is in all builds between 40-50K and yes there are many build options...)

Not sure why you want to wait more.

Please read again...

Just in case my english is that bad and the fault is on my side: First part is statistics and what I expect based on my experience with population changes. And then I talk about my personal view - starting with: "I'm fine with nerfing ward earlier then this." And "this" was refering towards the expected population which will not decline before may...

No, I understand your point, but your 1st paragraph and 2nd paragraph contradict each other. You said you believe there should be more data before a concrete answer can be given, to which I argued that there is no need to wait further because there has been plenty of data from the past 2 weeks, and data from previous overperforming classes. Then you also said you are ok with nerfing it sooner. So what is it? Should it be nerfed sooner or should it not be, because we can't just sit in a limbo and be unclear what the answer should be.

I'm also a data person myself, but some things just don't require huge amounts of data to determine whether it's negatively impacting the player base or not. For example, Dark Convergence didn't take 3 months to be concluded that it's hurting PvP. A few days of PvPing was enough to see, with multiple streamers and videos going around showcasing its overperformance in Cyrodiil and BG. NB with Concealed buff didn't take 3 months for it to be concluded that it would overperform either. You don't need to wait for these things to mature when a simple look at CMX data and a couple fights can already tell you, which definitely don't require 3 months of testing.

Zabagad

StaticWave wrote: »

You said you believe there should be more data before a concrete answer can be given

No that's not what I tried to say.

I said (or wannted to say) what the population will be in the near future and nobody can expect that it will decline fast(er).
Maybe I understood Tinkerhorn wrong and "but with the huge uptake in sorcs rather than the population plateuing after an initial spike" that didn't mean what I understood it to mean.
So I only tried to correct the expectations.

And my personal view was pretty clear in: "I'm fine with nerfing ward earlier then this".
Against Bushidos opinion I want a nerf asap - we don't have to wait how the population will behave.

So I'm exactly on your point (even I disagree a lot with you ) in this case.
Nerf now (but please no sladgehammer)
But if they don't nerf now - Sorc will be #2 in population (with a big gap to #3) minimum till May and nobody should expect that this settles back before... (and then we will be still #2 - but the gap will be not that big to #3 anymore)

Zabagad

And maybe one more time my personal wish list would be:

1) Try out the HoT solution asap
Then the stamSorc is out of the equation but melee Arcs "I deserve to kill everybody" will still claim Sorc OP if they not forgot to slot bastion. scnr

2) If too many still think "Sorc OP"
Take out the heal from ward completely and put something else - Major Brutality and Sorcery would be my wish.
But because we need Vigor again (and one gcd), change Bound Aegis "Minor Resolve and Minor Protection" to "Major Savagery and Prophecy".

This would be my personal wishlist in two steps.
I'm pretty sure 1) would make me stronger (like Jsmalls) and 2) gave me so much more flexability that I would enjoy different sorcs and builds.

HowlKimchi

Zabagad wrote: »

And maybe one more time my personal wish list would be:

1) Try out the HoT solution asap
Then the stamSorc is out of the equation but melee Arcs "I deserve to kill everybody" will still claim Sorc OP if they not forgot to slot bastion. scnr

You are referring to the post with the 10 min duel between an arcanist and a magsorc that ended in a stalemate.

I don't think you understood the point. It wasn't that the arcanist is saying she deserved to win there. It was that the ward was carrying an above average player to stalemate a very good player. If you swapped the classes they were playing, the other player will not be able to stalemate 100%.

Her point was, the overtuned ward is letting players punch above their "bracket." It may come of us being arrogant sure, but I can confirm that the player who posted that does have the skills to back up what she says.

StaticWave

Here is another simple test to gauge the strength of U41 Hardened Ward vs other burst heal spammables. In this test, my friend is a bash Sorc with very high DPS in one of our duels:



My max magicka for the test:



We compared Vigor + Encase and Vigor + Hardened Ward, and here are the results:

Vigor + Encase:


https://youtu.be/7UQA6ww1wyk

Vigor + Shield:

https://youtu.be/IExRGoDowNo

From these two clips, you can quickly see a few things:

1) Vigor + Encase and Vigor + Shield relatively provide the same amount of healing. However:

2) Vigor + Encase requires you to block cast A LOT. This drains resources extremely fast, especially against this specific build

3) Vigor + Shield does NOT require you to block cast a lot, as the shield acts as a buffer to allow your HoTs to heal up. You can even heavy attack while the shield is active to regain some magicka.

Since both Vigor + Encase and Vigor + Shield provide the same amount of healing, we can conclude that Vigor + Shield is better because the shield acts as a buffer, allowing you to tank enough damage to get out of execute range, while also not cutting off your regen.

Aces-High-82

To attain that mentioned unmatched mobility you have to sacrifice a lot If you dont wanna be outpaced by many specs. Tho that argument is valid for bowsorc (Major+minor expedition, 3 Swift and celerity) where you can basically dance around anyone to your liking.

From my experience so far it is either best to pair max mag with quite high mag recovery to enable frequent shield and streak casts (damage will be lower ofc) or see the change as a additional quite low heal and stick to your usual build.

Dont get me wrong here, I'd rather cast hardened then dark deal rn, as it enables
to stay offensive for more gcd's (1-3 depending on the Situation, which admitedly is a lot).

At least while magstacking I could stalemate very well in a 1v1 but couldnt kill outstanding players either.
In 1vx scenarios the updated ward enabled a less challanging/more forgiveable usual los minigame.
It was quite nice not to be blown out of existence as soon as vigor wasn't up for 2 secs (which I replaced with bound aegis).

As I already wrote quite some pages ago
(maybe another thread) HP bowsorc is superior still. Better mobility, damage, HPS mitigation and sets to choose from.

The ward change turned out to be very strong to me (moreso on HP bowsorc).
Turning the healing portion into a HoT would be best way to balance it If it provided vigor like scaling in terms of vigor strenght and continue to scale of max mag.

Bushido2513

StaticWave wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

But yeah if for some reason people just stay on sorc through the whole patch en mass then yeah we'll definitely need to nerf that value

It's going to be a skewed result though. Sorc hasn't been in the spot light for several big updates, so many people aren't going to admit that their class is currently overperforming.

Bored is bored, I main magsorc and that's all I've played for a while now, I enjoy it but do find I have to switch things up just to keep it interesting. If I start seeing sorc everywhere for too long even I'm going to want to switch just to see something different or perhaps just take a break.

My point is that I doubt I'll be the only one that feels this way. We play the game in part because of the variety. If variety ceases to be a thing population will decline and eventually people will just move on even if it's just so that they can come back to it later.

The nerf can still happen, I'm just saying we've seen this happen a few times now and eventually people get tired or the next new thing comes along next patch and people forget or move on.

Galeriano2

For now this thread looks like a one big overreaction. After 2 weeks of patch being on live server it really doesn't seem like magsorc or even sorc dominated patch and it doesn't look like this is going to change. Yeah sure magsorcs got more sturdy but it really doesn't impact the bigger picture as much as some people here are trying to suggest. If anything improvements that nb recived seem to influence U41 PvP more than sorc's changes.

Bushido2513

Oblivion_Protocol wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

It's going to be a skewed result though. Sorc hasn't been in the spot light for several big updates, so many people aren't going to admit that their class is currently overperforming.

The result is already skewed. 90% of Sorc mains are currently defending the Hardened Ward changes like there’s a gun to their heads.

More like a spec bow, Warden heal, tanky Arcanist, Nightblade of various forms, tanky DK, etc. My point is that if everyone in town has an automatic rifle and you get handed one with an extended magazine you might be overperforming a bit but you're still going to want to hold on to and you'll still know that if enough people gang up on you and that happens often, you're going to need every extra round.

Sorc healing is definitely a bit much in 1v1 but I'd argue that in open world the value goes down a bit due to several other factors. I'm not saying in every scenario by far but just overall.

Bushido2513

StaticWave wrote: »

At 4:50 seconds, KingofGames83, a well known console streamer who recently transferred to PC NA, also admits all Sorc iterations are overperforming, and he's been a Sorc main for years. He's not the only one. I'm also a Sorc main for 5 years, and I also think this change is too much. I can get a lot more examples of people who agree with me by simply asking in game, but is it really worth it? Not really. What's worth doing though is posting as many evidence as possible here so the right people can take a look @ZOS_Kevin @ZOS_Gilliam

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ft9KDfUQ7V8&t=288s

This is definitely a player worth listening to, no question. He's played the game well for long enough to have see it for what it is. I do think he also mentions that it's a meta situation and that this is the state of the game. The state of the game and the future of the game I'd argue aren't always the same thing.

Really he's saying that he wishes the mains could go out and enjoy it without the meta chases being there. My point is that it may take some time to see what meta chasers do and how other players react and what that ultimately turns into.

Bushido2513

StaticWave wrote: »

Zabagad wrote: »

Tinkerhorn wrote: »

It is overtuned and it's unhealthy for the game. Having such tankiness on a class with great mobility and solid ranged damage is just bad form in terms of balancing.
I appreciate magsorcs were not in a good spot for the most part before the update but it has swung too far the other way.
I wasn't initially going to comment and just see how it progresses until the next update but with the huge uptake in sorcs rather than the population plateuing after an initial spike, it's causing a lot of unenjoyable engagements and they've become the most common.
I don't much care for 1v1's or smallscale as 95% of those I played with have already quit the game. I just want to log in, have a couple of hours fun and log out but Sorcs, nightblades, and supertanks seem to be the name of the zerging game now. Difference is most nbs are fairly easy to kill or scare off, and most highly tanky players including dks and wardens are fairly impotent outside of their damage windows for the most part. Sorcs are packing a lot of damage for their survivability and manoeuvrability. The class changes has elevated a lot of players even though they're brand new to sorc. I'd rather fight a zerg of permacloaking nbs.
At the end of the day a game should set out achieving enjoyment and this certainly is not it. U41 proving to be another awful update as pointed out during the PTS. Just my two cents. Also lag is a lot worse exacerbating the experience.

I agree on most points - only this:
"but with the huge uptake in sorcs rather than the population plateuing after an initial spike,"
is much to early in my opinion.
We have to wait minimum the actual and the next campaign - and then maybe some (almost all?) of the fotm player will switch to something else.
But I wouldn't expect that the population of sorcs is dropping before May.

Oh - and even Bushido said almost the same - I'm not in the same boat with him. I'm fine with nerfing ward earlier then this.
I'm fine with a HoT - I'm fine if they remove the heal and give us major savagery for 6s - I'm fine whatever they do to nerf and end this discussion. Since U35 I never had to feel OP and was always nice to know that many other classes were stronger. I like to be the underdog and not the favorit.

Only thing I really want is that we at the end have still that one free barslot we got with U41.
Now it's vigor which is out - I don't care if it's magelight (or even surge) - but that one barslot gave me so much flexability that I can enjoy sorc now. (My max. magicka is in all builds between 40-50K and yes there are many build options...)

Not sure why you want to wait more. The class is being acknowledged by many people to be overperforming. Do you think people are just gonna magically hop off it because they get bored lol? If that's the case, then we would see a reduction in NB, but that's definitely not the case for that class. So waiting a few more months is pretty much pointless imo.

But we've seen people get off classes because they get bored, I remember when you couldn't go anywhere without getting leaped 3 times in a row or when ice wardens where everywhere.

NB is different because cloak really can't be found anywhere else and it enables a playstyle you just can't get anywhere else really.

I think sorc is different in that you are still visible to a zerg or group that wants to come after you. Also while I do really enjoy sorc, it just gets really boring if you start seeing too many of them. Like if I just see multiple curses, overloads, wraths, streaks, etc I'll probably just move on and maybe just take a break.

But again I'm not just making it up, we've seen this happened with other classes that got buffed. Also this change is more interesting because it was introduced mostly by itself in terms of great buffs. The next buff could be who knows what and then people will move on.

If necro had gotten an amazing buff this conversation wouldn't be half of what it is. Point being that none of us knows the future and this is something that time might change.

Bushido2513

HowlKimchi wrote: »

Zabagad wrote: »

And maybe one more time my personal wish list would be:

1) Try out the HoT solution asap
Then the stamSorc is out of the equation but melee Arcs "I deserve to kill everybody" will still claim Sorc OP if they not forgot to slot bastion. scnr

You are referring to the post with the 10 min duel between an arcanist and a magsorc that ended in a stalemate.

I don't think you understood the point. It wasn't that the arcanist is saying she deserved to win there. It was that the ward was carrying an above average player to stalemate a very good player. If you swapped the classes they were playing, the other player will not be able to stalemate 100%.

Her point was, the overtuned ward is letting players punch above their "bracket." It may come of us being arrogant sure, but I can confirm that the player who posted that does have the skills to back up what she says.

A friend and I were talking about this a while back in regards to not being able to kill someone regardless of what they bring because at the end of the day someone else made the game, we just play it.

When we both show up to a fight our job is to kill or live and the result is just who was better at their job. Yes you can say if you hadn't been on xyz class or running such and such set you'd be dead and it's true but they are and they aren't.

One thing we can say is that the current sorc isn't unkillable though definitely harder to kill that before.

Gear and class choices are just what they are though. I try to refrain from saying a player is or isn't something just because they choose xyz option for class and gear because hey they didn't make the game and in combat why wouldn't you use the best option that suits you?

Galeriano2

StaticWave wrote: »

Zabagad wrote: »

Tinkerhorn wrote: »

It is overtuned and it's unhealthy for the game. Having such tankiness on a class with great mobility and solid ranged damage is just bad form in terms of balancing.
I appreciate magsorcs were not in a good spot for the most part before the update but it has swung too far the other way.
I wasn't initially going to comment and just see how it progresses until the next update but with the huge uptake in sorcs rather than the population plateuing after an initial spike, it's causing a lot of unenjoyable engagements and they've become the most common.
I don't much care for 1v1's or smallscale as 95% of those I played with have already quit the game. I just want to log in, have a couple of hours fun and log out but Sorcs, nightblades, and supertanks seem to be the name of the zerging game now. Difference is most nbs are fairly easy to kill or scare off, and most highly tanky players including dks and wardens are fairly impotent outside of their damage windows for the most part. Sorcs are packing a lot of damage for their survivability and manoeuvrability. The class changes has elevated a lot of players even though they're brand new to sorc. I'd rather fight a zerg of permacloaking nbs.
At the end of the day a game should set out achieving enjoyment and this certainly is not it. U41 proving to be another awful update as pointed out during the PTS. Just my two cents. Also lag is a lot worse exacerbating the experience.

I agree on most points - only this:
"but with the huge uptake in sorcs rather than the population plateuing after an initial spike,"
is much to early in my opinion.
We have to wait minimum the actual and the next campaign - and then maybe some (almost all?) of the fotm player will switch to something else.
But I wouldn't expect that the population of sorcs is dropping before May.

Oh - and even Bushido said almost the same - I'm not in the same boat with him. I'm fine with nerfing ward earlier then this.
I'm fine with a HoT - I'm fine if they remove the heal and give us major savagery for 6s - I'm fine whatever they do to nerf and end this discussion. Since U35 I never had to feel OP and was always nice to know that many other classes were stronger. I like to be the underdog and not the favorit.

Only thing I really want is that we at the end have still that one free barslot we got with U41.
Now it's vigor which is out - I don't care if it's magelight (or even surge) - but that one barslot gave me so much flexability that I can enjoy sorc now. (My max. magicka is in all builds between 40-50K and yes there are many build options...)

Not sure why you want to wait more. The class is being acknowledged by many people to be overperforming. Do you think people are just gonna magically hop off it because they get bored lol? If that's the case, then we would see a reduction in NB, but that's definitely not the case for that class. So waiting a few more months is pretty much pointless imo.

I would preffer to see a infestation of unkillable sorcs that demolish everyone rather than just acknowledgment of some players. For now after 2 weeks of U41 I really don't see magsorcs dominating in actuall PvP.

Pointless or not it is ZoS's policy for few years now that no matter how bad balance changes will be introduced to live server they will stay atleast to next major patch in that case until U42 in june.

StaticWave

Bushido2513 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Zabagad wrote: »

Tinkerhorn wrote: »

It is overtuned and it's unhealthy for the game. Having such tankiness on a class with great mobility and solid ranged damage is just bad form in terms of balancing.
I appreciate magsorcs were not in a good spot for the most part before the update but it has swung too far the other way.
I wasn't initially going to comment and just see how it progresses until the next update but with the huge uptake in sorcs rather than the population plateuing after an initial spike, it's causing a lot of unenjoyable engagements and they've become the most common.
I don't much care for 1v1's or smallscale as 95% of those I played with have already quit the game. I just want to log in, have a couple of hours fun and log out but Sorcs, nightblades, and supertanks seem to be the name of the zerging game now. Difference is most nbs are fairly easy to kill or scare off, and most highly tanky players including dks and wardens are fairly impotent outside of their damage windows for the most part. Sorcs are packing a lot of damage for their survivability and manoeuvrability. The class changes has elevated a lot of players even though they're brand new to sorc. I'd rather fight a zerg of permacloaking nbs.
At the end of the day a game should set out achieving enjoyment and this certainly is not it. U41 proving to be another awful update as pointed out during the PTS. Just my two cents. Also lag is a lot worse exacerbating the experience.

I agree on most points - only this:
"but with the huge uptake in sorcs rather than the population plateuing after an initial spike,"
is much to early in my opinion.
We have to wait minimum the actual and the next campaign - and then maybe some (almost all?) of the fotm player will switch to something else.
But I wouldn't expect that the population of sorcs is dropping before May.

Oh - and even Bushido said almost the same - I'm not in the same boat with him. I'm fine with nerfing ward earlier then this.
I'm fine with a HoT - I'm fine if they remove the heal and give us major savagery for 6s - I'm fine whatever they do to nerf and end this discussion. Since U35 I never had to feel OP and was always nice to know that many other classes were stronger. I like to be the underdog and not the favorit.

Only thing I really want is that we at the end have still that one free barslot we got with U41.
Now it's vigor which is out - I don't care if it's magelight (or even surge) - but that one barslot gave me so much flexability that I can enjoy sorc now. (My max. magicka is in all builds between 40-50K and yes there are many build options...)

Not sure why you want to wait more. The class is being acknowledged by many people to be overperforming. Do you think people are just gonna magically hop off it because they get bored lol? If that's the case, then we would see a reduction in NB, but that's definitely not the case for that class. So waiting a few more months is pretty much pointless imo.

But we've seen people get off classes because they get bored, I remember when you couldn't go anywhere without getting leaped 3 times in a row or when ice wardens where everywhere.

NB is different because cloak really can't be found anywhere else and it enables a playstyle you just can't get anywhere else really.

I think sorc is different in that you are still visible to a zerg or group that wants to come after you. Also while I do really enjoy sorc, it just gets really boring if you start seeing too many of them. Like if I just see multiple curses, overloads, wraths, streaks, etc I'll probably just move on and maybe just take a break.

But again I'm not just making it up, we've seen this happened with other classes that got buffed. Also this change is more interesting because it was introduced mostly by itself in terms of great buffs. The next buff could be who knows what and then people will move on.

If necro had gotten an amazing buff this conversation wouldn't be half of what it is. Point being that none of us knows the future and this is something that time might change.

So you’re telling me that instead of balancing Sorc, we should… wait for people to get bored? 🤣🤣🤣 yea whatever lol

StaticWave

Galeriano2 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Zabagad wrote: »

Tinkerhorn wrote: »

It is overtuned and it's unhealthy for the game. Having such tankiness on a class with great mobility and solid ranged damage is just bad form in terms of balancing.
I appreciate magsorcs were not in a good spot for the most part before the update but it has swung too far the other way.
I wasn't initially going to comment and just see how it progresses until the next update but with the huge uptake in sorcs rather than the population plateuing after an initial spike, it's causing a lot of unenjoyable engagements and they've become the most common.
I don't much care for 1v1's or smallscale as 95% of those I played with have already quit the game. I just want to log in, have a couple of hours fun and log out but Sorcs, nightblades, and supertanks seem to be the name of the zerging game now. Difference is most nbs are fairly easy to kill or scare off, and most highly tanky players including dks and wardens are fairly impotent outside of their damage windows for the most part. Sorcs are packing a lot of damage for their survivability and manoeuvrability. The class changes has elevated a lot of players even though they're brand new to sorc. I'd rather fight a zerg of permacloaking nbs.
At the end of the day a game should set out achieving enjoyment and this certainly is not it. U41 proving to be another awful update as pointed out during the PTS. Just my two cents. Also lag is a lot worse exacerbating the experience.

I agree on most points - only this:
"but with the huge uptake in sorcs rather than the population plateuing after an initial spike,"
is much to early in my opinion.
We have to wait minimum the actual and the next campaign - and then maybe some (almost all?) of the fotm player will switch to something else.
But I wouldn't expect that the population of sorcs is dropping before May.

Oh - and even Bushido said almost the same - I'm not in the same boat with him. I'm fine with nerfing ward earlier then this.
I'm fine with a HoT - I'm fine if they remove the heal and give us major savagery for 6s - I'm fine whatever they do to nerf and end this discussion. Since U35 I never had to feel OP and was always nice to know that many other classes were stronger. I like to be the underdog and not the favorit.

Only thing I really want is that we at the end have still that one free barslot we got with U41.
Now it's vigor which is out - I don't care if it's magelight (or even surge) - but that one barslot gave me so much flexability that I can enjoy sorc now. (My max. magicka is in all builds between 40-50K and yes there are many build options...)

Not sure why you want to wait more. The class is being acknowledged by many people to be overperforming. Do you think people are just gonna magically hop off it because they get bored lol? If that's the case, then we would see a reduction in NB, but that's definitely not the case for that class. So waiting a few more months is pretty much pointless imo.

I would preffer to see a infestation of unkillable sorcs that demolish everyone rather than just acknowledgment of some players. For now after 2 weeks of U41 I really don't see magsorcs dominating in actuall PvP.

Pointless or not it is ZoS's policy for few years now that no matter how bad balance changes will be introduced to live server they will stay atleast to next major patch in that case until U42 in june.

We aren’t playing the same game then. I can argue that I don’t see that many NBs dominating either, but we both know NB is overperforming.

Galeriano2

StaticWave wrote: »

Galeriano2 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Zabagad wrote: »

Tinkerhorn wrote: »

It is overtuned and it's unhealthy for the game. Having such tankiness on a class with great mobility and solid ranged damage is just bad form in terms of balancing.
I appreciate magsorcs were not in a good spot for the most part before the update but it has swung too far the other way.
I wasn't initially going to comment and just see how it progresses until the next update but with the huge uptake in sorcs rather than the population plateuing after an initial spike, it's causing a lot of unenjoyable engagements and they've become the most common.
I don't much care for 1v1's or smallscale as 95% of those I played with have already quit the game. I just want to log in, have a couple of hours fun and log out but Sorcs, nightblades, and supertanks seem to be the name of the zerging game now. Difference is most nbs are fairly easy to kill or scare off, and most highly tanky players including dks and wardens are fairly impotent outside of their damage windows for the most part. Sorcs are packing a lot of damage for their survivability and manoeuvrability. The class changes has elevated a lot of players even though they're brand new to sorc. I'd rather fight a zerg of permacloaking nbs.
At the end of the day a game should set out achieving enjoyment and this certainly is not it. U41 proving to be another awful update as pointed out during the PTS. Just my two cents. Also lag is a lot worse exacerbating the experience.

I agree on most points - only this:
"but with the huge uptake in sorcs rather than the population plateuing after an initial spike,"
is much to early in my opinion.
We have to wait minimum the actual and the next campaign - and then maybe some (almost all?) of the fotm player will switch to something else.
But I wouldn't expect that the population of sorcs is dropping before May.

Oh - and even Bushido said almost the same - I'm not in the same boat with him. I'm fine with nerfing ward earlier then this.
I'm fine with a HoT - I'm fine if they remove the heal and give us major savagery for 6s - I'm fine whatever they do to nerf and end this discussion. Since U35 I never had to feel OP and was always nice to know that many other classes were stronger. I like to be the underdog and not the favorit.

Only thing I really want is that we at the end have still that one free barslot we got with U41.
Now it's vigor which is out - I don't care if it's magelight (or even surge) - but that one barslot gave me so much flexability that I can enjoy sorc now. (My max. magicka is in all builds between 40-50K and yes there are many build options...)

Not sure why you want to wait more. The class is being acknowledged by many people to be overperforming. Do you think people are just gonna magically hop off it because they get bored lol? If that's the case, then we would see a reduction in NB, but that's definitely not the case for that class. So waiting a few more months is pretty much pointless imo.

I would preffer to see a infestation of unkillable sorcs that demolish everyone rather than just acknowledgment of some players. For now after 2 weeks of U41 I really don't see magsorcs dominating in actuall PvP.

Pointless or not it is ZoS's policy for few years now that no matter how bad balance changes will be introduced to live server they will stay atleast to next major patch in that case until U42 in june.

We aren’t playing the same game then. I can argue that I don’t see that many NBs dominating either, but we both know NB is overperforming.

Any data to support claims that magsorcs took over PvP in U41 or that nightblades are not dominating in it? Like actuall data not some duel videos and build editor screenshots.

Can You provide any reliable source of information showing that unkillable magsorcs that demolsih everyone actually took over PvP in U41?

StaticWave

Galeriano2 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Galeriano2 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Zabagad wrote: »

Tinkerhorn wrote: »

It is overtuned and it's unhealthy for the game. Having such tankiness on a class with great mobility and solid ranged damage is just bad form in terms of balancing.
I appreciate magsorcs were not in a good spot for the most part before the update but it has swung too far the other way.
I wasn't initially going to comment and just see how it progresses until the next update but with the huge uptake in sorcs rather than the population plateuing after an initial spike, it's causing a lot of unenjoyable engagements and they've become the most common.
I don't much care for 1v1's or smallscale as 95% of those I played with have already quit the game. I just want to log in, have a couple of hours fun and log out but Sorcs, nightblades, and supertanks seem to be the name of the zerging game now. Difference is most nbs are fairly easy to kill or scare off, and most highly tanky players including dks and wardens are fairly impotent outside of their damage windows for the most part. Sorcs are packing a lot of damage for their survivability and manoeuvrability. The class changes has elevated a lot of players even though they're brand new to sorc. I'd rather fight a zerg of permacloaking nbs.
At the end of the day a game should set out achieving enjoyment and this certainly is not it. U41 proving to be another awful update as pointed out during the PTS. Just my two cents. Also lag is a lot worse exacerbating the experience.

I agree on most points - only this:
"but with the huge uptake in sorcs rather than the population plateuing after an initial spike,"
is much to early in my opinion.
We have to wait minimum the actual and the next campaign - and then maybe some (almost all?) of the fotm player will switch to something else.
But I wouldn't expect that the population of sorcs is dropping before May.

Oh - and even Bushido said almost the same - I'm not in the same boat with him. I'm fine with nerfing ward earlier then this.
I'm fine with a HoT - I'm fine if they remove the heal and give us major savagery for 6s - I'm fine whatever they do to nerf and end this discussion. Since U35 I never had to feel OP and was always nice to know that many other classes were stronger. I like to be the underdog and not the favorit.

Only thing I really want is that we at the end have still that one free barslot we got with U41.
Now it's vigor which is out - I don't care if it's magelight (or even surge) - but that one barslot gave me so much flexability that I can enjoy sorc now. (My max. magicka is in all builds between 40-50K and yes there are many build options...)

Not sure why you want to wait more. The class is being acknowledged by many people to be overperforming. Do you think people are just gonna magically hop off it because they get bored lol? If that's the case, then we would see a reduction in NB, but that's definitely not the case for that class. So waiting a few more months is pretty much pointless imo.

I would preffer to see a infestation of unkillable sorcs that demolish everyone rather than just acknowledgment of some players. For now after 2 weeks of U41 I really don't see magsorcs dominating in actuall PvP.

Pointless or not it is ZoS's policy for few years now that no matter how bad balance changes will be introduced to live server they will stay atleast to next major patch in that case until U42 in june.

We aren’t playing the same game then. I can argue that I don’t see that many NBs dominating either, but we both know NB is overperforming.

Any data to support claims that magsorcs took over PvP in U41 or that nightblades are not dominating in it? Like actuall data not some duel videos and build editor screenshots.

Can You provide any reliable source of information showing that unkillable magsorcs that demolsih everyone actually took over PvP in U41?

Sure, but how do you determine reliability then. I need to know that first before getting the sources.

xylena_lazarow

HowlKimchi wrote: »

Her point was, the overtuned ward is letting players punch above their "bracket."

I wouldn't even say that much since the sorc was clearly a decent player, what shows me Ward is broken above all else is that mag sorc's entire healing kit only requires slotting passives and spamming one button. That's a hard carry for any skill level, made even more idiotic by the fact that it's not even a tanky melee brawler, but a highly mobile ranged nuke.

xylena_lazarow

Galeriano2 wrote: »

Any data to support claims that magsorcs took over PvP in U41 or that nightblades are not dominating in it? Like actuall data not some duel videos and build editor screenshots.

Proper competitive games have publicly available usage stats broken down by ELO, sadly this game has neither of those things. The patch hasn't hit consoles yet, and players in my 500-person BGs guild are just now starting to farm their Asylum Destros. Get ready for a wave of proc mag sorcs lol. Patch is too new for the meta to be overrun yet, and the most obnoxious version of ranged sorc has yet to even be perfected...

Bushido2513

StaticWave wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Zabagad wrote: »

Tinkerhorn wrote: »

It is overtuned and it's unhealthy for the game. Having such tankiness on a class with great mobility and solid ranged damage is just bad form in terms of balancing.
I appreciate magsorcs were not in a good spot for the most part before the update but it has swung too far the other way.
I wasn't initially going to comment and just see how it progresses until the next update but with the huge uptake in sorcs rather than the population plateuing after an initial spike, it's causing a lot of unenjoyable engagements and they've become the most common.
I don't much care for 1v1's or smallscale as 95% of those I played with have already quit the game. I just want to log in, have a couple of hours fun and log out but Sorcs, nightblades, and supertanks seem to be the name of the zerging game now. Difference is most nbs are fairly easy to kill or scare off, and most highly tanky players including dks and wardens are fairly impotent outside of their damage windows for the most part. Sorcs are packing a lot of damage for their survivability and manoeuvrability. The class changes has elevated a lot of players even though they're brand new to sorc. I'd rather fight a zerg of permacloaking nbs.
At the end of the day a game should set out achieving enjoyment and this certainly is not it. U41 proving to be another awful update as pointed out during the PTS. Just my two cents. Also lag is a lot worse exacerbating the experience.

I agree on most points - only this:
"but with the huge uptake in sorcs rather than the population plateuing after an initial spike,"
is much to early in my opinion.
We have to wait minimum the actual and the next campaign - and then maybe some (almost all?) of the fotm player will switch to something else.
But I wouldn't expect that the population of sorcs is dropping before May.

Oh - and even Bushido said almost the same - I'm not in the same boat with him. I'm fine with nerfing ward earlier then this.
I'm fine with a HoT - I'm fine if they remove the heal and give us major savagery for 6s - I'm fine whatever they do to nerf and end this discussion. Since U35 I never had to feel OP and was always nice to know that many other classes were stronger. I like to be the underdog and not the favorit.

Only thing I really want is that we at the end have still that one free barslot we got with U41.
Now it's vigor which is out - I don't care if it's magelight (or even surge) - but that one barslot gave me so much flexability that I can enjoy sorc now. (My max. magicka is in all builds between 40-50K and yes there are many build options...)

Not sure why you want to wait more. The class is being acknowledged by many people to be overperforming. Do you think people are just gonna magically hop off it because they get bored lol? If that's the case, then we would see a reduction in NB, but that's definitely not the case for that class. So waiting a few more months is pretty much pointless imo.

But we've seen people get off classes because they get bored, I remember when you couldn't go anywhere without getting leaped 3 times in a row or when ice wardens where everywhere.

NB is different because cloak really can't be found anywhere else and it enables a playstyle you just can't get anywhere else really.

I think sorc is different in that you are still visible to a zerg or group that wants to come after you. Also while I do really enjoy sorc, it just gets really boring if you start seeing too many of them. Like if I just see multiple curses, overloads, wraths, streaks, etc I'll probably just move on and maybe just take a break.

But again I'm not just making it up, we've seen this happened with other classes that got buffed. Also this change is more interesting because it was introduced mostly by itself in terms of great buffs. The next buff could be who knows what and then people will move on.

If necro had gotten an amazing buff this conversation wouldn't be half of what it is. Point being that none of us knows the future and this is something that time might change.

So you’re telling me that instead of balancing Sorc, we should… wait for people to get bored? 🤣🤣🤣 yea whatever lol

Not at all, I'm just saying it's too early to really say what this is or isn't.

I'm not trying to take away from your findings but more so be realistic in that none of us knows everything about everything in this game when it comes to things that could go either way due to players choosing what we do or don't expect down the line.

Galeriano2

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Galeriano2 wrote: »

Any data to support claims that magsorcs took over PvP in U41 or that nightblades are not dominating in it? Like actuall data not some duel videos and build editor screenshots.

Proper competitive games have publicly available usage stats broken down by ELO, sadly this game has neither of those things. The patch hasn't hit consoles yet, and players in my 500-person BGs guild are just now starting to farm their Asylum Destros. Get ready for a wave of proc mag sorcs lol. Patch is too new for the meta to be overrun yet, and the most obnoxious version of ranged sorc has yet to even be perfected...

So You admit that as it stands right now, magsorcs didn't overrun PvP and You just predict that this may happen?

Bushido2513

StaticWave wrote: »

Galeriano2 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Zabagad wrote: »

Tinkerhorn wrote: »

It is overtuned and it's unhealthy for the game. Having such tankiness on a class with great mobility and solid ranged damage is just bad form in terms of balancing.
I appreciate magsorcs were not in a good spot for the most part before the update but it has swung too far the other way.
I wasn't initially going to comment and just see how it progresses until the next update but with the huge uptake in sorcs rather than the population plateuing after an initial spike, it's causing a lot of unenjoyable engagements and they've become the most common.
I don't much care for 1v1's or smallscale as 95% of those I played with have already quit the game. I just want to log in, have a couple of hours fun and log out but Sorcs, nightblades, and supertanks seem to be the name of the zerging game now. Difference is most nbs are fairly easy to kill or scare off, and most highly tanky players including dks and wardens are fairly impotent outside of their damage windows for the most part. Sorcs are packing a lot of damage for their survivability and manoeuvrability. The class changes has elevated a lot of players even though they're brand new to sorc. I'd rather fight a zerg of permacloaking nbs.
At the end of the day a game should set out achieving enjoyment and this certainly is not it. U41 proving to be another awful update as pointed out during the PTS. Just my two cents. Also lag is a lot worse exacerbating the experience.

I agree on most points - only this:
"but with the huge uptake in sorcs rather than the population plateuing after an initial spike,"
is much to early in my opinion.
We have to wait minimum the actual and the next campaign - and then maybe some (almost all?) of the fotm player will switch to something else.
But I wouldn't expect that the population of sorcs is dropping before May.

Oh - and even Bushido said almost the same - I'm not in the same boat with him. I'm fine with nerfing ward earlier then this.
I'm fine with a HoT - I'm fine if they remove the heal and give us major savagery for 6s - I'm fine whatever they do to nerf and end this discussion. Since U35 I never had to feel OP and was always nice to know that many other classes were stronger. I like to be the underdog and not the favorit.

Only thing I really want is that we at the end have still that one free barslot we got with U41.
Now it's vigor which is out - I don't care if it's magelight (or even surge) - but that one barslot gave me so much flexability that I can enjoy sorc now. (My max. magicka is in all builds between 40-50K and yes there are many build options...)

Not sure why you want to wait more. The class is being acknowledged by many people to be overperforming. Do you think people are just gonna magically hop off it because they get bored lol? If that's the case, then we would see a reduction in NB, but that's definitely not the case for that class. So waiting a few more months is pretty much pointless imo.

I would preffer to see a infestation of unkillable sorcs that demolish everyone rather than just acknowledgment of some players. For now after 2 weeks of U41 I really don't see magsorcs dominating in actuall PvP.

Pointless or not it is ZoS's policy for few years now that no matter how bad balance changes will be introduced to live server they will stay atleast to next major patch in that case until U42 in june.

We aren’t playing the same game then. I can argue that I don’t see that many NBs dominating either, but we both know NB is overperforming.

Well to be fair we have way more data and time under observation for a NB supremacy debate.

xylena_lazarow

Galeriano2 wrote: »

So You admit that as it stands right now, magsorcs didn't overrun PvP and You just predict that this may happen?

My comrade in Cyrodiil, I predicted this in December 2022.

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Healing is supposed to be secondary to damage shields for this style Sorc, and I promise you that you do not want to fight a Sorc that can both stack shields and heal like crazy. The last thing we need is more accidental healing buffs.