Hardened Ward heal making it to live is a mistake and needs to be changed

Major_Toughness

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Jsmalls wrote: »

But a 14-16k "heal" is not out of line and I think rather balanced

No, shields aren't heals. Shields are preloaded mitigation that can be used both proactively and reactively. That's massively powerful and massively different from what things like Coag Blood or Healthy Offering do. The intended balance was that shields can preload but thus recover worse, while burst heals can't preload but they recover much better.

Ward both preloads and recovers. Proactive and reactive in a single bar slot, spammable, unconditional. No drawback.

This argument went out the window when block mitigation was allowed to be utilized at insane values alongside burst heals.
Block casting burst heals completely nullifies this argument because up to 98% mitigation is always going to be significantly more effective than a shield that can (at max) get 50% mitigation, but still takes all the damage anyway. Even a more average block mitigation of 70% (as I put forward in my calcs earlier) still achieves insane effective health per second that is more than comparable with what ward can provide, especially once you remove 5-10% off the peak of wards and change that to raw damage (that buffs heals).

How big of a shield do you get on your build? With 52k Health and SnB.

Yiko

This is an insane thread. The amount of bad faith arguing and/or lack of game balance understanding from these sorc apologists is absurd.

It seems like an exercise in futility engaging with people who are defending Hardened Ward when they're approaching it from places like:

• not having touched the game client where this change is active
• running suboptimal builds with 40k or less max magicka and stating that the ability does not feel like it's generally overperforming
• citing Kill Counter % class kill/death distribution breakdowns like it has any kind of statistical relevance to game balance
• stating that other classes are overtuned in some capacity, so Hardened Ward is fine in its current iteration
• having a severe inability to provide or even interpret general combat data
• playing the game in such a way that individual class overperformance cannot be immediately understood and/or cannot be leveraged
• pretending that Streak does not exist
• "trust me, bro, I'm a sorc"

What a joke

StaticWave

Major_Toughness wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Jsmalls wrote: »

But a 14-16k "heal" is not out of line and I think rather balanced

No, shields aren't heals. Shields are preloaded mitigation that can be used both proactively and reactively. That's massively powerful and massively different from what things like Coag Blood or Healthy Offering do. The intended balance was that shields can preload but thus recover worse, while burst heals can't preload but they recover much better.

Ward both preloads and recovers. Proactive and reactive in a single bar slot, spammable, unconditional. No drawback.

This argument went out the window when block mitigation was allowed to be utilized at insane values alongside burst heals.
Block casting burst heals completely nullifies this argument because up to 98% mitigation is always going to be significantly more effective than a shield that can (at max) get 50% mitigation, but still takes all the damage anyway. Even a more average block mitigation of 70% (as I put forward in my calcs earlier) still achieves insane effective health per second that is more than comparable with what ward can provide, especially once you remove 5-10% off the peak of wards and change that to raw damage (that buffs heals).

How big of a shield do you get on your build? With 52k Health and SnB.

Lol just saw a screenshot of Turtle Bot on 52k HP and SnB in a discord. Must be 14k ward I bet lol

StaticWave

Yiko wrote: »

This is an insane thread. The amount of bad faith arguing and/or lack of game balance understanding from these sorc apologists is absurd.

It seems like an exercise in futility engaging with people who are defending Hardened Ward when they're approaching it from places like:

• not having touched the game client where this change is active
• running suboptimal builds with 40k or less max magicka and stating that the ability does not feel like it's generally overperforming
• citing Kill Counter % class kill/death distribution breakdowns like it has any kind of statistical relevance to game balance
• stating that other classes are overtuned in some capacity, so Hardened Ward is fine in its current iteration
• having a severe inability to provide or even interpret general combat data
• playing the game in such a way that individual class overperformance cannot be immediately understood and/or cannot be leveraged
• pretending that Streak does not exist
• "trust me, bro, I'm a sorc"

What a joke

I would say something but that would be considered baiting and i don’t wanna get perma banned, so i think this statement goes well with this thread:

“People who claim something but don’t have any concrete evidence to support their claims, yet still refute other people’s arguments, should not participate in balance discussions”

xylena_lazarow

StaticWave wrote: »

“People who claim something but don’t have any concrete evidence to support their claims, yet still refute other people’s arguments, should not participate in balance discussions”

In competitive Pokemon, if you meet and post a minimum ELO you get to vote on the ban they're currently testing.

In ESO we got what... parses, deathmatch stats, and praying to Sithis there's enough noise for ZOS to notice?

Zabagad

Yiko wrote: »

[*] citing Kill Counter % class kill/death distribution breakdowns like it has any kind of statistical relevance to game balance

What a joke

Nice summary

Just for that point - I tried to say that there is no "relevance to game balance" and it was only a try to counter statics argument .(who was using Kill Counter as his argument)

Anyway - I still hope that ZOS is listening and change it (first) to a HoT, because then this thread will be even mor fun.
Then we will see the real endgame in a duell between Static and Xylena

Turtle_Bot

StaticWave wrote: »

Major_Toughness wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Jsmalls wrote: »

But a 14-16k "heal" is not out of line and I think rather balanced

No, shields aren't heals. Shields are preloaded mitigation that can be used both proactively and reactively. That's massively powerful and massively different from what things like Coag Blood or Healthy Offering do. The intended balance was that shields can preload but thus recover worse, while burst heals can't preload but they recover much better.

Ward both preloads and recovers. Proactive and reactive in a single bar slot, spammable, unconditional. No drawback.

This argument went out the window when block mitigation was allowed to be utilized at insane values alongside burst heals.
Block casting burst heals completely nullifies this argument because up to 98% mitigation is always going to be significantly more effective than a shield that can (at max) get 50% mitigation, but still takes all the damage anyway. Even a more average block mitigation of 70% (as I put forward in my calcs earlier) still achieves insane effective health per second that is more than comparable with what ward can provide, especially once you remove 5-10% off the peak of wards and change that to raw damage (that buffs heals).

How big of a shield do you get on your build? With 52k Health and SnB.

Lol just saw a screenshot of Turtle Bot on 52k HP and SnB in a discord. Must be 14k ward I bet lol

It was high 13k iirc, with a roughly 4k heal, so between 17 and 18k total (Note: I was not using vibrant shroud nor daedric trickery so no major/minor vitality to buff the shield size further).

52k health was probably when I was buffed via a random wardens off heal giving me minor toughness, (assuming this screenshot was posted yesterday?) typically that build I was testing sits around 48k (with max DDF stacks) or 55-58k (vamp ultimate + DDF).

If they claim the shield was higher, it was likely because the build I was testing was stacking both damage return and shields with spiked bone shield (that sits roughly 10k when in vamp form) + hardened ward + Harbinger set. I switched off the double shields fairly quickly though as keeping both shields up while also blocked for Harbinger was too draining on resources, even with sustain from wretched and back bar Ice staff to split block cost between stam and mag.

Results of the testing for that build; the build is playable (and fun), not anything game-breaking (for cyrodiil) though since harbinger got giga-nerfed many patches ago. Only has any real kill threat or good sustained survivability when in vamp ultimate or with a group backing it up (despite the wards and high health) falls much faster than other high health "tank" builds when outnumbered though, due to a lack of mitigation on wards to back up that much health and lack of mobility due to only 20k max mag making sustaining all 3 of ward + streak + dark deal for stam sustain, borderline impossible.

It is absolutely a pain in the proverbial to take down in a 1v1 (and most didn't bother trying, or ran a couple rotations then moved on), but that has been my experience for all health stacking builds I've tried on any class, and tbh, I've found warden to be significantly more capable in that scenario than sorc, with warden having a much easier time switching back to offense than sorc does when under significant pressure like that (HoTs with their significantly longer duration are really strong currently).

Not to say that ward wasn't putting in work for that build, but it really didn't feel any more impactful than what I was already able to achieve in Cyrodiil on a DK/Warden/Arcanist that was built to include mobility, damage and sustain while block casting my burst heal with typically mediocre uptimes on the HoTs.

Zabagad

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

It is absolutely a pain in the proverbial to take down in a 1v1 (and most didn't bother trying, or ran a couple rotations then moved on)

Honestly I don't see any reason why this is a thing at all and what's so funny about 52K health?

There are many good (even very good) Sorcs running at the moment with 45K-55K health and many of them are very succeful with that builds.
There is a duo of two healthSorcs (I guess both individualy better then me) which are a big threat.
As you said - nobody can harm them (I stopped after "a couple rotations") but if they catch you alone, then it's hard to survive with my 24,9K health - even with OP ward.

So I don't see any reason to justify yourself or any other sorc who runs such a build....

TheTruestKing

As someone who has 10,472 hours on Sorc. I can definitely say the shield feels strong. In 1v1 I'm now capable of brawling which I was previously barely able to against dot builds and metas. The numbers just weren't there to not use streak/bol occasionally. With only crit surge, vigor, rally, dark deal available. Certain builds would demolish no matter what. Master dw vate staff way of fire plus skills was to much for any sorc. I mean look at top sorcs on YouTube like KoG, Eman, Malcolm. All have felt what I'm talking about with dots. Now the pendulum has swung the other way. And it honestly feels good. It's hard for me to remain unbiased. But here's my take.

It's very strong it's like polar wind healthy offering strong. Should it be nerfed? Idk? Fat shields come at a cost. Max health or max mag. Are there sorcs out here running essence thief rallying cry with balorgh and markyn and hitting 50k of either pool? Absolutely not. I already tried. 50k is the barrier to entry. If you have 40k or under the shield is going to be bad and so will the heal. I run 50k health on my stam sorc. I had to give up my monster set mundus and mythic of choice to do it. For mag Crafty is mandatory. Sorc is pigeon holed into building a certain way which is healthy for balance. Am I unkillable in 1v1? Only if I turtle which can be said about almost every class. Am I unkillable outnumbered? Absolutely not. Am I a BG God who can't be killed by a 4 man. No. I think if there must be a change for balance sake then it should be a buff to all forms of defile major and minor. And give every class easy access to the debuff. Every so often this happens where sorc becomes strong and people lose there minds. Third bar, implosion, then health recovery, deadlands vate crystal weapon one shot, maras balm then now. Some of these I'll admit we're busted but are peanuts compared to others like necro 1 button 24 man group bomb. Bashcro, insta Blick nb, mistform healers the list goes on. Just know I'm not a dev. I have no affiliation with zenimax. So you don't need to get upset with my opinion. It's ok to get different perspectives and different opinions. I just some guy on the internet. And it's just a video game. Everything is going to be alright.

Turtle_Bot

As I said in response to the changes put forward for ward by Xylena (who actually took the time to give reasonings and what the ideal outcomes/impacts of what those changes would achieve, which I appreciate a lot), I'd be happy to test out switching the burst heal to a HoT, but sorc would need something to account for this change (as was mentioned, major prophecy somewhere in the class kit).

I'd also still like to test switching max stats on BA/morphs to major prophecy/savagery while keeping the burst heal too since that change would hybridize that ability/morphs and significantly reduce the efficiency of getting that peak max mag that can be achieved on sorc (which also directly nerfs ward size) giving us some actual data to compare if it is really the burst heal or the stacked stats that is the main issue behind ward.

It would also mean that most sorcs who want that full damage build would drop bound aegis for bound armaments which reduces passive mitigation by 3k armor + 5% mitigation (minor resolve/protection) which is a huge amount of extra damage that the sorc would be taking, making them much easier to kill when combined with the drop in max mag that can be stacked that reduces the shields size.

I'd even be happy to test out a combination of these 2 things (burst heal becomes a HoT as well as switching max stats on BA to major prophecy/savagery), the HoT would have to be a reasonable size though (maybe have it as an actual value that scales off damage instead of scaling it as a percent of max stats, this way you can choose, stronger HoT or stronger ward, but not both at the same time).

I haven't tested the full 60k+ mag build on live yet, I did test it on the PTS, but with everything that I have tested on live, ward has not seemed too far out of place when compared to what I was able to achieve on the other classes with their healing kits last patch, hence why despite agreeing that it could see some small adjustments for max mag builds (I have suggested things for this), I don't want to see a huge gutting of the ability because outside of that 1 specific build (60k+ mag) everything I have tested hasn't really performed all that different to what the other classes are capable of and even the 60k max mag build really wasn't anything special compared to something like the 2h polar stamdens I've seen around for quite a few patches now.

This is why I'd be happy to test some small adjustments out, but don't want to see any massive nerfs with these changes that magsorc actually needed. Also, lets be honest with ourselves here, the underlying message of this thread is reading as "hardened ward should just be deleted from the game because it's stronger than even polar winds or ball group stacked HoTs/Shields" even if this thread is not intended that way, it 100% feels like this is the underlying message of this thread (hence the huge and consistent backlash on here).

Something I would like to see from the CMX data (if possible) and this is genuine question/curiosity here:

What mitigation values for incoming damage the wards have (i.e. how much do they reduce the incoming damage that the wards take by). Yes the wards grant a temporary flat buffer of X health, but if the wards are just taking the full damage of an incoming attack that will be completely skewing the CMX data as to how much damage wards can protect you from compared to block casting heals as the number will have been significantly artificially inflated when compared to damage taken when block casting heals.

To give an example:
- say you have an incoming attack that deals 20k damage, assuming a ward size of 12k + 4k heal and mitigation (armor + percent) of 50%, that attack would remove 10k off the ward, leaving a total health gain of 6k (2k left on the ward + 4k heal).
- now say you are block casting a burst heal that heals for 16k (the same total temporary health gain value as the ward above) and your block mitigation is 75%, (a fairly average block mitigation value for an open world build that also has good damage) that same incoming attack would deal a total of 5k damage (25% of 20k = 5k), but that leaves 11k of health gain from that 1 burst heal that was applied to the actual health bar (i.e. it does not vanish after a set period of time).

The health gain from the block cast burst heal is nearly double what the health gain from the ward is (or nearly triple if we remove the 2k left on the shield which expires, where the burst heal does not expire).

The other thing to account for here is that the damage taken by the ward = 10k, whereas the damage taken by the block cast heal is only 5k. As such this would only show up in the logs such as CMX as half the damage done to the block casting target when compared to the damage done against the warded target.

In the example above:
- To have the same effective health gain from the ward as you would get from the block cast burst heal, the ward would have to have a combined total value of 12k shield + 9k heal (or 21k total value) which is 31% more than what the burst heal has and this is with only an average block mitigation value of 75% that a typical damage build would easily have and not even looking at what a full tank build that has upwards of 98%+ block mitigation. This block mitigation (on a tank) would mean a ward would have to be in the hundreds of thousands in terms of size to equal this mitigation value, which is completely absurd.
- The damage done to the warded target in the CMX in this example would also need to be halved to account for how much mitigation block actually provides because the damage done to the blocking target is being reduced significantly more than the damage done against the warding target.

I.e. that 9.3k DPS shown on the CMX that the sorc was was surviving, should actually be counted as if it were more like 4.65k DPS being done to a block-healing target, which we can round up to 5k. Which is definitely a lot, but is 100% on par with what the other classes that would turtle up in such a situation would/can achieve.

This is why I remain skeptical about the 8/9k+ DPS being shown by the CMX values that is being used to claim that ward is at a level that is effectively stronger than polar winds, we don't know the full picture here because CMX is not showing that to us because we don't have the various mitigation values being accounted for in this data.

Answering this would go a long way in breaking down just how much ward is overperforming by, extreme, moderate or slightly, and would help a lot to determine how much of an adjustment is needed to bring it in line with burst heals that can be (and are being) block cast by the other classes, even when only accounting for average block mitigation on a damage build.

I.e. if that same damage done to a warding target remains at 8/9k+ on a block-healing target, then ward is definitely extremely overperforming and needs a big adjustment, if the damage drops to 5-6k then ward is moderately overperforming and only needs a smaller adjustment and if it drops to 3-4k or less on a block healing target then ward is simply in-line with what block casting burst heals are currently achieving for the other classes.

I really hope this can be answered in detail and not just dismissed like it was the last time this question was asked, because this will really put the actual equivalent numbers into real comparable values and really help with determining just what is needed when it comes to adjusting ward.

Until then, I still agree that the ability is very strong and could use some small adjustments to prevent the peak scaling it currently reaches (which I have also given suggestions to address this countless times that always seems to be ignored, not even acknowledged) and 100% agree that it is overperforming in 1v1's, as are many other abilities and defensive tools available in this game that other classes have (hence why we have the stalemate/tank meta (outside of a bugged set)), but will remain skeptical that it really is as overwhelmingly broken as is being claimed.

Also Note:

It is highly likely that ZOS already has this type of in depth information comparing what would be an accurate measure of effective health gain from block-heals and wards and, with the threads that popped up during the first week of the PTS about ward, which surely would have been read with subsequent testing in-house (because let's face it, the threads on this topic were not exactly hidden, subtle or quiet), and ZOS deemed ward to be fine to let it go live for at least this patch (you know how much ZOS likes their FOTM rotations, but are not afraid to change something that is an outlier (see DK class set, U35 sorc nerfs, ward cast times, to name a few), especially when it would be such an easy 5 minute change to adjust the size, scaling or cap on the ward or to remove/adjust the max stats from BA/morphs or expert summoner passive.

Yes, I know NB didn't get changed this PTS either and of course some things get missed such as Tarnished Nightmares unintended interaction with a specific ability, but NB always has the PvE excuse (despite how overused that excuse is getting now, also, PvE seems to be ZOS main focus for the game based on their actions) and Tarnished's interaction was never mentioned during the PTS cycle, and most even thought it was just another underwhelming burst proc set that gankers could choose should they want something different from scavenging.

Btw, we also don't know what's coming next patch, for all we know, every other class could be getting a huge buff next patch that this buff to ward was just a pre-cursor for, which puts sorc right back where it was last patch (or lower), they could even be giving DK cloak, plars streak and NB beam for all we know, it's not like they're super forthcoming with specifics regarding what their changes are until the PTS gets released.

xylena_lazarow

TheTruestKing wrote: »

Can someone proc way of fire master dw and vate staff with zaan and go watch an episode of their favorite TV show while I struggle to stay alive.

No, because that's not how those sets or builds work, if it's a "struggle" for you to stay alive against limited range tethers when you have Streak, I don't know what to tell you. It undermines your entire post.

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

As I said in response to the changes put forward for ward by Xylena (who actually took the time to give reasonings and what the ideal outcomes/impacts of what those changes would achieve, which I appreciate a lot), I'd be happy to test out switching the burst heal to a HoT, but sorc would need something to account for this change (as was mentioned, major prophecy somewhere in the class kit).

Ward is too strong to need anything else attached, and Sorc does NOT need more healing. Sorc is already a strong HoT class but many players don't seem to understand how to activate Surge, so maybe Surge should just be a normal HoT instead of the weird crit lifesteal thing they have going. I'll stand by adding the passive double bar major crit buff to Sorc's kit as the best solution, it still buffs the class, and now everyone who wanted a burst heal on their Sorc has room to slot one.

Keep in mind that devs usually prefer players to just point out problems, rather than try to solve them.

TheTruestKing

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

TheTruestKing wrote: »

Can someone proc way of fire master dw and vate staff with zaan and go watch an episode of their favorite TV show while I struggle to stay alive.

No, because that's not how those sets or builds work, if it's a "struggle" for you to stay alive against limited range tethers when you have Streak, I don't know what to tell you. It undermines your entire post.

Well I never said anything that you quoted so there's nothing that undermines my post. :-p. It's ok to disagree but in duels streaking was not an option because that setup you mention is a dueling build. Just remember it's just a game. There's no reason to get emotional. We are not the developers. Rebuttals to each others post means nothing. I'm not here to change your mind and you're not here to change mine. This a feedback post and all are welcomed here reguardless of skill level, vet status, etc... to give there insight as to what they think about the change. What I said is my perspective from a 10000 hour sorc main.

Jsmalls

StaticWave wrote: »

Jsmalls wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Jsmalls wrote: »

@StaticWave

So I talked to Felon about these duels, he said the ones you listed were straight DPS parses and not a real fight so I don't think there is anything TOO insane there, going full defensive in a fight isn't an issue. Also id like to clarify this was done with a ward scaling off of 36k~ health like you said... Which is not a strong ward, I wish you would have listed the values for the ward but with the heal being 3-5k (with really high crit healing AND major vitality) and I imagine a 9.5k ward with major Vitality (from monster set) maybe that's a 10.5k ward (you can confirm or I can mimic it to see).

But a 14-16k "heal" is not out of line and I think rather balanced... Its when it's reaching 20k for one button that it's a problem.

So what's this trying to prove? 36k health gives a lot of room for error and buffer time to heal. And ward at those numbers isn't out of line. Vigor and crit surge was 30% of your healing so it couldn't be done without those.

At the end of the day I'm not saying ward is balanced (at the upper ranges) because it isn't. But what you showed is not an overperforming ward at all. Felon also said you had duels where it was a real fight, you were putting up 3.5k~ DPS to his 7.5k~ at the time. He said you guys stalemated. Assuming you were using the same setup as above you'd have had blood magic, crit surge, vigor, malubeth, and a mediocre version of ward. So far from "just using ward" and not an accurate representation of what ward is able to absorb.

I'm not involved in the dueling community so I'm not going to pretend I know every stat about it. But the test you put up is no different than U40 Ward (about 15k ward size versus 11k + 4k heal) and seems like an exaggeration of what ward is actually doing.

Fe7on talking about a potential ban on Ward for his dueling tourney

@StaticWave

And I would agree. Hardened Ward in a 1v1 is broken (depending on the build). We've been saying this since the beginning of this thread. And I don't even think anyone has disagreed on that stance. It renders pressure builds useless and can only kill a top tier Sorcs by 100-0 him. Which can really only be done by other Sorcs and Nightblades.

What I've also said is outside of 1v1 is where it loses it's strength. It remains the worst scaling form of defense in the game. Block casting mitigates a % of ALL incoming blockable damage, dodge rolling mitigates ALL dodgeable attacks.

Hardened Ward mitigates EXACTLY X(~15-20k) value. No more no less. So yes for the 4k health it offers, block casting will mitigate damage to that, but the other 13k is wasted stamina/magicka.

Sorcs are in a "balanced" spot in 1vX and an overpowered spot in 1v1. Really what I feel it comes down to.

And I say "balanced" because I don't agree that Sorcs should be tanky, have great burst and have a super mobile kit. But I'd also like to point out that Sorc burst has been buffed for like 3-4 straight patches. Minor berserk/minor force, bound Aegis on both bars, and 10% more magicka.

@Jsmalls
I have another counter argument for you regarding block casting a burst heal and shielding:

Don’t you think that with the current Ward, block casting a burst heal is worse because you are cutting off your regen, possibly also losing stam via block cost, and still losing almost as much magicka because burst heals are expensive?

But you have the option when it comes to "health" healing. You don't have to block cast if your resources can't handle it. You get no option for ward. But yeah you can certainly say due to the consistent temporary health plus health, shield offers (which is typically higher than a burst heal) that it offers greater sustain by not having to use block.

And I know I say block casting is a waste with ward and generally it is. But since I have Ward on my S&B bar I block cast ward A LOT. It helps me keep my stamina below 50% for Torc, it stops CC's and it activates Sorcs passives to reduce cost of next ability by 10% (which is generally Ward). But for 90% of the Sorc playerbase with Ward on a lightning staff bar you're losing too much stamina to justify it.

Resources have become so negligible as of recently (this fact doesn't have any real place in this thread). It's so "easy" to perma sustain.

I want Ward nerfed, trust me I do. But I don't want it nerfed if they aren't going to look at EVERY classes healing potential when it comes to block casting. I think every class is Overtuned in how much healing is possible. I think @Turtle_Bot had a great example of each classes capabilities in a "controlled" setup. I'm okay with stationary classes have "great" healing. But it really only pertains to classes that are stuck in their buff circle (DK and Templar).

xylena_lazarow

TheTruestKing wrote: »

in duels streaking was not an option because that setup you mention is a dueling build. Just remember it's just a game. There's no reason to get emotional.

Nothing wrong with passion for the game, but there's definitely something wrong if you think you can't Streak in a 1v1, especially after playing the class for 10,000 hours...

Jsmalls wrote: »

look at EVERY classes healing potential when it comes to block casting

Activate lifesteal hots, hold block on your back bar ice staff, press Vigor then Streak twice. This is a very strong defense tactic that Sorcs have been able to use for years and still can. To make this even more bizarre, Bound Aegis is one of the strongest block buffs in the game. I also explained block-shielding to you in an earlier post, have you tried it yet?

TechMaybeHic

This is starting to remind me of NBs before they got a burst heal. I was amazed how many didn't realize how strong vigor then cloak was back when cloak even has less potent detect pots and worked through DOTs more

Maybe that's what will happen. Streak will be slowed down to be closer to mist form with a stun

xylena_lazarow

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

Maybe that's what will happen. Streak will be slowed down to be closer to mist form with a stun

I sure hope not, Streak is class identity and why I loved playing Sorc, big dumb face tank heals is not what Sorc is about.

StaticWave

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

Maybe that's what will happen. Streak will be slowed down to be closer to mist form with a stun

I sure hope not, Streak is class identity and why I loved playing Sorc, big dumb face tank heals is not what Sorc is about.

Last patch, my HP sorc sat at 40k HP minimum, and average 44k HP. With Bastion, the shield size for 40k HP is around 10.5k and 12k for 44k. This patch I’m dropping down to 37k HP because Major Vitality buffs shield size by 12%. I’m using Malubeth to get this buff. At 37k HP with Major Vitality, my shield size is still 10.5k, but I’m gaining more damage by dropping HP and also gaining more heals from the Major buff.

It obviously won’t do as much damage as a mag stacking Sorc, but it’s probably tankier and more forgiving to play. There are 2 HoTs running at all times, and 3 if you use Crystal Weapon.

What’s interesting is last patch, I could die if I got into execute range. Not anymore in U41. I cast 2 Wards with Vigor and Surge ticking and I’m back to full HP. It honestly feels like cheating sometimes cause I can self heal as good as a Warden but I’m wayyy more elusive lol.

Galeriano2

StaticWave wrote: »

Galeriano2 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

katorga wrote: »

Been playing with and against hardened this week. Meh. Makes mag sorc equal to the other classes with their massive burst heals.

No, it doesn’t 🤣 It makes sorc better

So where are all these sorcs dominating PvP? When DK was overbuffed few patches ago I could feel this immidiately, same goes for nb, but with magsorc despite becoming supposedly so OP after over 2 weeks since patch release I don't see it. Sure magsorcs on average got sturdier but that was the point of whole patch. I still fail to meet some unkillable ultra high hitting sorcs 1vXing in PvP which is what I would consider OP. In BGs they die like every other class, some good players perform decently but average ones are still average. At worst they will be just crutching on shield spam but in 2024 seeing someone crutching on easy defenses is really not something new. And those who crutch on shields usually have really poor dmg pressure. So I ask once again where are all these shieldspamming sorcs killing everyone and dominating PvP?

They been all over the place. I killed just as many NBs and DKs as I killed Sorc last patch. If we go by your logic then from MY EXPERIENCE, NB and DK ARE NOT dominating. See why this is problematic?

Shieldspamming sorcs killing everyone and dominating PvP have been all over the place? Which place excatly?

If we go by Your logic than nb still needs buffs because it's pretty average in duels.

Turtle_Bot

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

As I said in response to the changes put forward for ward by Xylena (who actually took the time to give reasonings and what the ideal outcomes/impacts of what those changes would achieve, which I appreciate a lot), I'd be happy to test out switching the burst heal to a HoT, but sorc would need something to account for this change (as was mentioned, major prophecy somewhere in the class kit).

Ward is too strong to need anything else attached, and Sorc does NOT need more healing. Sorc is already a strong HoT class but many players don't seem to understand how to activate Surge, so maybe Surge should just be a normal HoT instead of the weird crit lifesteal thing they have going. I'll stand by adding the passive double bar major crit buff to Sorc's kit as the best solution, it still buffs the class, and now everyone who wanted a burst heal on their Sorc has room to slot one.

Keep in mind that devs usually prefer players to just point out problems, rather than try to solve them.

I've often wondered about making surge (base morph) as a regular HoT that when morphed to crit surge, then gains a bonus heal (of significantly smaller value) when dealing critical damage.
Or make the other morph an actual HoT instead of the janky proc heal on crit healing with the wonkiest, most unsynergetic cooldown that that morph currently is.

Completely agree on the double bar major crit buff, always found it so strange that the class that depends on dealing lots of critical strikes and not 1 big crit doesn't have the named crit chance buff in its kit.

Looks like we are in agreement here that, ideally, if ZOS had just given sorc major prophecy/savagery on either bar, maybe rework the other morph of crit surge to be an actual HoT instead of the rng crit double heal effect, then ward could have been left alone because everyone would have had room to slot vibrant shroud or run resto for blessings. Unfortunately, this is not what ZOS has done.

I also understand that ZOS want's to put their own spin on everything, but at some point they (and this is a generic they for all devs of all companies, not just zos specifically) need to realise that sometimes the players just have the best solutions to the problems that the players are raising awareness of (not always, but sometimes) and that listening to the players and communicating with the players that have put forward their ideas as to why they feel those ideas have potential is what is required to solve these issues. This isn't to say that players should always be listened to for specifics when making changes, but many suggestions actually have a lot of merit and warrant actual testing and fleshing out rather than just being ignored in favor of some random, left field, out-of-touch change that ends up making things worse.
It's called listening to the customers (something that all business, not just ZOS, seems to really struggle with currently) and what the customers want and taking that feedback on board when considering changes. The feedback doesn't always have to be applied, but having that understanding of the issues and open communication between the devs and the community helps bridge that gap when changes are made or issues are raised so that everyone at least understands the reasons for these things.

Perfect recent example of this issue of not listening to the community is the change to Lightning splash:
All the hard data was showing that it was one of, if not the, worst DoT in the game, it needed an actual damage buff on the DoT component, it needed supplementary effects for buffing concussed or shock damage in general (like what warden got for frost or DK for fire) to make it an ability worth considering, even if these buffs were tied to not running pets.
All it got was a small increase to its radius that has done absolutely nothing to help this ability find ways onto peoples skill bars...

StaticWave

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

As I said in response to the changes put forward for ward by Xylena (who actually took the time to give reasonings and what the ideal outcomes/impacts of what those changes would achieve, which I appreciate a lot), I'd be happy to test out switching the burst heal to a HoT, but sorc would need something to account for this change (as was mentioned, major prophecy somewhere in the class kit).

Ward is too strong to need anything else attached, and Sorc does NOT need more healing. Sorc is already a strong HoT class but many players don't seem to understand how to activate Surge, so maybe Surge should just be a normal HoT instead of the weird crit lifesteal thing they have going. I'll stand by adding the passive double bar major crit buff to Sorc's kit as the best solution, it still buffs the class, and now everyone who wanted a burst heal on their Sorc has room to slot one.

Keep in mind that devs usually prefer players to just point out problems, rather than try to solve them.

I've often wondered about making surge (base morph) as a regular HoT that when morphed to crit surge, then gains a bonus heal (of significantly smaller value) when dealing critical damage.
Or make the other morph an actual HoT instead of the janky proc heal on crit healing with the wonkiest, most unsynergetic cooldown that that morph currently is.

Completely agree on the double bar major crit buff, always found it so strange that the class that depends on dealing lots of critical strikes and not 1 big crit doesn't have the named crit chance buff in its kit.

Looks like we are in agreement here that, ideally, if ZOS had just given sorc major prophecy/savagery on either bar, maybe rework the other morph of crit surge to be an actual HoT instead of the rng crit double heal effect, then ward could have been left alone because everyone would have had room to slot vibrant shroud or run resto for blessings. Unfortunately, this is not what ZOS has done.

I also understand that ZOS want's to put their own spin on everything, but at some point they (and this is a generic they for all devs of all companies, not just zos specifically) need to realise that sometimes the players just have the best solutions to the problems that the players are raising awareness of (not always, but sometimes) and that listening to the players and communicating with the players that have put forward their ideas as to why they feel those ideas have potential is what is required to solve these issues. This isn't to say that players should always be listened to for specifics when making changes, but many suggestions actually have a lot of merit and warrant actual testing and fleshing out rather than just being ignored in favor of some random, left field, out-of-touch change that ends up making things worse.
It's called listening to the customers (something that all business, not just ZOS, seems to really struggle with currently) and what the customers want and taking that feedback on board when considering changes. The feedback doesn't always have to be applied, but having that understanding of the issues and open communication between the devs and the community helps bridge that gap when changes are made or issues are raised so that everyone at least understands the reasons for these things.

Perfect recent example of this issue of not listening to the community is the change to Lightning splash:
All the hard data was showing that it was one of, if not the, worst DoT in the game, it needed an actual damage buff on the DoT component, it needed supplementary effects for buffing concussed or shock damage in general (like what warden got for frost or DK for fire) to make it an ability worth considering, even if these buffs were tied to not running pets.
All it got was a small increase to its radius that has done absolutely nothing to help this ability find ways onto peoples skill bars...

I also agreed with you in other threads too. Sorc just needs:

1) Major Savagery on one of the existing skills on its bar

2) Surge turned into a reliable HoT that doesn't require critting

3) If needed a burst heal, turn one of the morphs of Dark Exchange to be a non-scaling burst heal with a small resource return, and the other morph return both resources.

4) Could even add Major Breach on Curse too if we're pushing it, so Sorc frees up a bar slot

moderatelyfatman

I don't know why they couldn't make the heal scale only off health like the Clanfear and not magicka.

StaticWave

StaticWave wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

As I said in response to the changes put forward for ward by Xylena (who actually took the time to give reasonings and what the ideal outcomes/impacts of what those changes would achieve, which I appreciate a lot), I'd be happy to test out switching the burst heal to a HoT, but sorc would need something to account for this change (as was mentioned, major prophecy somewhere in the class kit).

Ward is too strong to need anything else attached, and Sorc does NOT need more healing. Sorc is already a strong HoT class but many players don't seem to understand how to activate Surge, so maybe Surge should just be a normal HoT instead of the weird crit lifesteal thing they have going. I'll stand by adding the passive double bar major crit buff to Sorc's kit as the best solution, it still buffs the class, and now everyone who wanted a burst heal on their Sorc has room to slot one.

Keep in mind that devs usually prefer players to just point out problems, rather than try to solve them.

I've often wondered about making surge (base morph) as a regular HoT that when morphed to crit surge, then gains a bonus heal (of significantly smaller value) when dealing critical damage.
Or make the other morph an actual HoT instead of the janky proc heal on crit healing with the wonkiest, most unsynergetic cooldown that that morph currently is.

Completely agree on the double bar major crit buff, always found it so strange that the class that depends on dealing lots of critical strikes and not 1 big crit doesn't have the named crit chance buff in its kit.

Looks like we are in agreement here that, ideally, if ZOS had just given sorc major prophecy/savagery on either bar, maybe rework the other morph of crit surge to be an actual HoT instead of the rng crit double heal effect, then ward could have been left alone because everyone would have had room to slot vibrant shroud or run resto for blessings. Unfortunately, this is not what ZOS has done.

I also understand that ZOS want's to put their own spin on everything, but at some point they (and this is a generic they for all devs of all companies, not just zos specifically) need to realise that sometimes the players just have the best solutions to the problems that the players are raising awareness of (not always, but sometimes) and that listening to the players and communicating with the players that have put forward their ideas as to why they feel those ideas have potential is what is required to solve these issues. This isn't to say that players should always be listened to for specifics when making changes, but many suggestions actually have a lot of merit and warrant actual testing and fleshing out rather than just being ignored in favor of some random, left field, out-of-touch change that ends up making things worse.
It's called listening to the customers (something that all business, not just ZOS, seems to really struggle with currently) and what the customers want and taking that feedback on board when considering changes. The feedback doesn't always have to be applied, but having that understanding of the issues and open communication between the devs and the community helps bridge that gap when changes are made or issues are raised so that everyone at least understands the reasons for these things.

Perfect recent example of this issue of not listening to the community is the change to Lightning splash:
All the hard data was showing that it was one of, if not the, worst DoT in the game, it needed an actual damage buff on the DoT component, it needed supplementary effects for buffing concussed or shock damage in general (like what warden got for frost or DK for fire) to make it an ability worth considering, even if these buffs were tied to not running pets.
All it got was a small increase to its radius that has done absolutely nothing to help this ability find ways onto peoples skill bars...

I also agreed with you in other threads too. Sorc just needs:

1) Major Savagery on one of the existing skills on its bar

2) Surge turned into a reliable HoT that doesn't require critting

3) If needed a burst heal, turn one of the morphs of Dark Exchange to be a non-scaling burst heal with a small resource return, and the other morph return both resources.

4) Could even add Major Breach on Curse too if we're pushing it, so Sorc frees up a bar slot

All these changes will make both stam and mag sorcs as competitive as other classes without putting them on NB tier, which is a class of its own lol.

If these changes are implemented, then the burst heal on Ward needs to go imo

xylena_lazarow

StaticWave wrote: »

4) Could even add Major Breach on Curse too if we're pushing it, so Sorc frees up a bar slot

This would be great, every class should have sticky Major Breach, no reason to force so many builds into Ele Sus.

StaticWave

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

4) Could even add Major Breach on Curse too if we're pushing it, so Sorc frees up a bar slot

This would be great, every class should have sticky Major Breach, no reason to force so many builds into Ele Sus.

Right, there are better approaches to making Sorc better without outright elevating it to OP status.

My version of a Sorc that's balanced is this:

For magSorc:
- Curse gets Major Breach

For stamSorc:
- Bound Armaments gets Major Prophecy for slotting. Magsorc will slot Inner Light regardless to get 5% max mag for shield, so they probably won't drop it even if another skill gets Major Savagery.

That's ALL you need. You'd free up 1 bar slot and get better skills there.

Aznox

StaticWave wrote: »

My version of a Sorc that's balanced is this:

For magSorc:
- Curse gets Major Breach

For stamSorc:
- Bound Armaments gets Major Prophecy for slotting

Ahaha, every "nerf magsorc" thread is secretly a "buff stamsorc" thread.

... intra-class competition is underestimated
.

xylena_lazarow

StaticWave wrote: »

Bound Armaments gets Major Prophecy for slotting. Magsorc will slot Inner Light regardless to get 5% max mag for shield, so they probably won't drop it even if another skill gets Major Savagery.

The major crit buff should be on a skill that any Sorc can use, half the point of this is so magsorcs have an actual choice between stacking more mag with Inner Light, or giving up some max mag to slot a burst heal like Vibrant Shroud. This means that burst healing Sorcs would have slightly less max mag, which is a good thing.

StaticWave

Aznox wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

My version of a Sorc that's balanced is this:

For magSorc:
- Curse gets Major Breach

For stamSorc:
- Bound Armaments gets Major Prophecy for slotting

Ahaha, every "nerf magsorc" thread is secretly a "buff stamsorc" thread.

... intra-class competition is underestimated
.

Yes lol

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Bound Armaments gets Major Prophecy for slotting. Magsorc will slot Inner Light regardless to get 5% max mag for shield, so they probably won't drop it even if another skill gets Major Savagery.

The major crit buff should be on a skill that any Sorc can use, half the point of this is so magsorcs have an actual choice between stacking more mag with Inner Light, or giving up some max mag to slot a burst heal like Vibrant Shroud. This means that burst healing Sorcs would have slightly less max mag, which is a good thing.

I can’t really think of another skill in the Sorc tool kit tbh. Could maybe put it on Rune Prison, but where else would you put it?

xylena_lazarow

StaticWave wrote: »

I can’t really think of another skill in the Sorc tool kit tbh. Could maybe put it on Rune Prison, but where else would you put it?

Passive double bar major crit buff should be attached to... let's see.

Crystal Shards morphs make sense because there's a number of GCDs where they're unusable.

Lightning Form morphs give a reason to run the armor skill and other monster sets over Chudan and Inner Light.

Surge itself could work, could even convert one morph to a normal HoT with a small heal bonus on crits.

Quackery

You're ONE PERSON complaining about this! The rest of us love this change! Not everyone is as good as you at playing a sorc, so give people a break.

TechMaybeHic

There's been a few. Its NB and Sorc online right now.