Hardened Ward heal making it to live is a mistake and needs to be changed

Jsmalls

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Galeriano2 wrote: »

Any data to support claims that magsorcs took over PvP in U41 or that nightblades are not dominating in it? Like actuall data not some duel videos and build editor screenshots.

Proper competitive games have publicly available usage stats broken down by ELO, sadly this game has neither of those things. The patch hasn't hit consoles yet, and players in my 500-person BGs guild are just now starting to farm their Asylum Destros. Get ready for a wave of proc mag sorcs lol. Patch is too new for the meta to be overrun yet, and the most obnoxious version of ranged sorc has yet to even be perfected...

This is exactly what I'm worried about and stated in the PTS forums. Asylum, charged, and Draugrkin on a ranged MagSorc (and other ranged classes) is going to be a SERIOUS problem (probably don't even need Draugrkin). It's literally gonna be the new master dual wield but at RANGE.

xylena_lazarow

Jsmalls wrote: »

This is exactly what I'm worried about and stated in the PTS forums. Asylum, charged, and Draugrkin on a ranged MagSorc (and other ranged classes) is going to be a SERIOUS problem (probably don't even need Draugrkin). It's literally gonna be the new master dual wield but at RANGE.

Yea it was incredible to me people were whining so hard about MDW while cheering this crap on. And when they're all dying to it, they'll be demanding Asylum Destro nerfs, just like they demanded NB spectral bow nerfs, even though it's the broken funny button heal move on both that enables all the broken nonsense, like being able to fail your burst over and over but indefinitely reset the fight to try again. At least NB does actually need to press more than one active healing button?

StaticWave

Galeriano2 wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Galeriano2 wrote: »

Any data to support claims that magsorcs took over PvP in U41 or that nightblades are not dominating in it? Like actuall data not some duel videos and build editor screenshots.

Proper competitive games have publicly available usage stats broken down by ELO, sadly this game has neither of those things. The patch hasn't hit consoles yet, and players in my 500-person BGs guild are just now starting to farm their Asylum Destros. Get ready for a wave of proc mag sorcs lol. Patch is too new for the meta to be overrun yet, and the most obnoxious version of ranged sorc has yet to even be perfected...

So You admit that as it stands right now, magsorcs didn't overrun PvP and You just predict that this may happen?

You don’t know if magsorcs don’t overrun PvP either though, if we go by this logic

Bushido2513

Jsmalls wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Galeriano2 wrote: »

Any data to support claims that magsorcs took over PvP in U41 or that nightblades are not dominating in it? Like actuall data not some duel videos and build editor screenshots.

Proper competitive games have publicly available usage stats broken down by ELO, sadly this game has neither of those things. The patch hasn't hit consoles yet, and players in my 500-person BGs guild are just now starting to farm their Asylum Destros. Get ready for a wave of proc mag sorcs lol. Patch is too new for the meta to be overrun yet, and the most obnoxious version of ranged sorc has yet to even be perfected...

This is exactly what I'm worried about and stated in the PTS forums. Asylum, charged, and Draugrkin on a ranged MagSorc (and other ranged classes) is going to be a SERIOUS problem (probably don't even need Draugrkin). It's literally gonna be the new master dual wield but at RANGE.

I feel like we would have seen this more so far since it is one of the obvious build choices. I've been running Asylum staff for a while in preparation for the change and while testing some ideas. Could start to see more when console gets the patch but I figured we'd already see it.

Jsmalls

Bushido2513 wrote: »

]
I feel like we would have seen this more so far since it is one of the obvious build choices. I've been running Asylum staff for a while in preparation for the change and while testing some ideas. Could start to see more when console gets the patch but I figured we'd already see it.

I mean it's a weapon that involves a trial so that's going to decrease it's availability.

And I don't think it's hit the YouTuber / Streamer meta build guides yet.

But trust me, I fought it a lot on PTS (granted for high end duelers). It's a lot of damage.

Bushido2513

Jsmalls wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

]
I feel like we would have seen this more so far since it is one of the obvious build choices. I've been running Asylum staff for a while in preparation for the change and while testing some ideas. Could start to see more when console gets the patch but I figured we'd already see it.

I mean it's a weapon that involves a trial so that's going to decrease it's availability.

And I don't think it's hit the YouTuber / Streamer meta build guides yet.

But trust me, I fought it a lot on PTS (granted for high end duelers). It's a lot of damage.

Oh I totally believe you which is also why I'm curious.

The normal version is super easy to grind so that's also why I thought I'd see it more by now.

Zabagad

Jsmalls wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Galeriano2 wrote: »

Any data to support claims that magsorcs took over PvP in U41 or that nightblades are not dominating in it? Like actuall data not some duel videos and build editor screenshots.

Proper competitive games have publicly available usage stats broken down by ELO, sadly this game has neither of those things. The patch hasn't hit consoles yet, and players in my 500-person BGs guild are just now starting to farm their Asylum Destros. Get ready for a wave of proc mag sorcs lol. Patch is too new for the meta to be overrun yet, and the most obnoxious version of ranged sorc has yet to even be perfected...

This is exactly what I'm worried about and stated in the PTS forums. Asylum, charged, and Draugrkin on a ranged MagSorc (and other ranged classes) is going to be a SERIOUS problem (probably don't even need Draugrkin). It's literally gonna be the new master dual wield but at RANGE.

I tried some of these builds on the PTS, but I wasn't impressed at all. So I'm curious if the Asylum builds will be really the new mdw?

But - as you said this can be run by any other class - I'm not even sure Sorc would be the best class for that, or maybe NB from stealth? I'm not an expert of other classes, so I ask - isn't there a class which push status effect chances or something like that...?
Anyway - this is imo missleading because it's coming (or not) from the status effect changes and has nothing to do with the ward change.

edit:

Jsmalls wrote: »

But trust me, I fought it a lot on PTS (granted for high end duelers). It's a lot of damage.

Ok - good to know
Then I made maybe something wrong - but I decided for myself not to farm it and not go that way...

Galeriano2

StaticWave wrote: »

Galeriano2 wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Galeriano2 wrote: »

Any data to support claims that magsorcs took over PvP in U41 or that nightblades are not dominating in it? Like actuall data not some duel videos and build editor screenshots.

Proper competitive games have publicly available usage stats broken down by ELO, sadly this game has neither of those things. The patch hasn't hit consoles yet, and players in my 500-person BGs guild are just now starting to farm their Asylum Destros. Get ready for a wave of proc mag sorcs lol. Patch is too new for the meta to be overrun yet, and the most obnoxious version of ranged sorc has yet to even be perfected...

So You admit that as it stands right now, magsorcs didn't overrun PvP and You just predict that this may happen?

You don’t know if magsorcs don’t overrun PvP either though, if we go by this logic

And I never claimed that I do. Only claim I made is that in first 2 weeks of U41 havn't been seeing magsorc PvP domination or anything close to it.

Galeriano2

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Jsmalls wrote: »

This is exactly what I'm worried about and stated in the PTS forums. Asylum, charged, and Draugrkin on a ranged MagSorc (and other ranged classes) is going to be a SERIOUS problem (probably don't even need Draugrkin). It's literally gonna be the new master dual wield but at RANGE.

Yea it was incredible to me people were whining so hard about MDW while cheering this crap on. And when they're all dying to it, they'll be demanding Asylum Destro nerfs, just like they demanded NB spectral bow nerfs, even though it's the broken funny button heal move on both that enables all the broken nonsense, like being able to fail your burst over and over but indefinitely reset the fight to try again. At least NB does actually need to press more than one active healing button?

Rending slashes with MDW is stronger than crushing shock/force pulse with asylum destro. It's not even a competition.

Asylum destro will most propably not be used in PvP as much as many people think. It's highly overestimated especially for sorc.

Jsmalls

Galeriano2 wrote: »

Asylum destro will most propably not be used in PvP as much as many people think. It's highly overestimated especially for sorc.

It adds ~2000 damage every second cast of your spammable and allows the possibility of 9 damage instances on that second cast, 6 status effects and the 3 elements of damage with the bonus of 10 if your enchant also that lines up). Couple that with curse and crystal weapons and that's a lot of damage all at once, that's not dependent (and would hit harder) than a proc'd frag.

xylena_lazarow

Galeriano2 wrote: »

Rending slashes with MDW is stronger than crushing shock/force pulse with asylum destro. It's not even a competition.

I don't know what max mag sorc's final form will look like, but at least on the surface MDW lacks synergy with max mag stacking and restricts build configuration. In a vacuum, yea the melee arena weapon absolutely should be stronger than its ranged counterpart, melee vs range is not merely cosmetic.

Galeriano2

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Galeriano2 wrote: »

Rending slashes with MDW is stronger than crushing shock/force pulse with asylum destro. It's not even a competition.

I don't know what max mag sorc's final form will look like, but at least on the surface MDW lacks synergy with max mag stacking and restricts build configuration. In a vacuum, yea the melee arena weapon absolutely should be stronger than its ranged counterpart, melee vs range is not merely cosmetic.

I wasn't talking about MDW vs asylum destro for magsorc specifically but in general.

Galeriano2

Jsmalls wrote: »

Galeriano2 wrote: »

Asylum destro will most propably not be used in PvP as much as many people think. It's highly overestimated especially for sorc.

It adds ~2000 damage every second cast of your spammable and allows the possibility of 9 damage instances on that second cast, 6 status effects and the 3 elements of damage with the bonus of 10 if your enchant also that lines up). Couple that with curse and crystal weapons and that's a lot of damage all at once, that's not dependent (and would hit harder) than a proc'd frag.

So it adds ~1k on average for one specific ability, even less considering that not every second cast will actually hit the target due to dodge rolls, cloaks and 5 seconds window which will persih when rebuffing or going into defense. 2k dmg is also a generous prediction, very often it will be less. My average dmg for a status effect is usually around 500-600 although I was checking that in BGs. Having stat denser build may result with similar or even more dmg output considering that it will be buffing all abilities not just one. You may argue that asulym destro can provide You with burst opportunity but if burst is what You're looking for than crushing/elemental weapon from psijic skill line exists.

When it comes to using draugrkin plus asylum destro You will have to permanently deal with 10% healing reduction because draugrkin will be always active. Without asylum You still can get up to 7 hits at once from force shock although both 10 and 7 hits are not something You will be expecting to see often. Sorcs that were using draugrkin before U41 were running without asylum destro usually with draugrkin front, rallying cry back where defense and healing would be located on back bar to avoid draugrkin affecting healing all the time. It's also popular for draugrkin setups to use bound armanents instead of bound aegis for obvious reasons but by doing this You are loosing minor resolve, minor protection and 8% max mag which lowers Your shield size and forces You to slot vigor and temporal guard limiting Your bar space options.

Sorc's defense definietly became easier with hardened ward changes but all the other issues with the main one being one of the biggest bar space limitations are still there and this issues are disabling ceretain setups from taking over. Even simple things like switching vigor to bound aegis are causing issues for setups that use rallying cry on back bar because it's no longer that easy to proc that set which negatively impacts gameplay on that particular setup.

I actually tested magsorcs for few days after patch went live and asylum destro setups in terms of damage were really not performing any better than other options while other options were providing me with more utility. For example my asylum setup had like 3-4k less max magicka than my max magicka setup which was causing overall dmg of both setups to be comparable while 3-4k more max magicka was making my shield stronger.

StaticWave

Galeriano2 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Galeriano2 wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Galeriano2 wrote: »

Any data to support claims that magsorcs took over PvP in U41 or that nightblades are not dominating in it? Like actuall data not some duel videos and build editor screenshots.

Proper competitive games have publicly available usage stats broken down by ELO, sadly this game has neither of those things. The patch hasn't hit consoles yet, and players in my 500-person BGs guild are just now starting to farm their Asylum Destros. Get ready for a wave of proc mag sorcs lol. Patch is too new for the meta to be overrun yet, and the most obnoxious version of ranged sorc has yet to even be perfected...

So You admit that as it stands right now, magsorcs didn't overrun PvP and You just predict that this may happen?

You don’t know if magsorcs don’t overrun PvP either though, if we go by this logic

And I never claimed that I do. Only claim I made is that in first 2 weeks of U41 havn't been seeing magsorc PvP domination or anything close to it.

See that is why this isn’t a good point for determining whether Ward is overperforming or not because I see a lot of Sorcs. Both of us see different amounts of players and that isn’t accurate.

That’s why I go by CMX data and video clips that demonstrate how the weakness of this ability has been removed.

Galeriano2

StaticWave wrote: »

Galeriano2 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Galeriano2 wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Galeriano2 wrote: »

Any data to support claims that magsorcs took over PvP in U41 or that nightblades are not dominating in it? Like actuall data not some duel videos and build editor screenshots.

Proper competitive games have publicly available usage stats broken down by ELO, sadly this game has neither of those things. The patch hasn't hit consoles yet, and players in my 500-person BGs guild are just now starting to farm their Asylum Destros. Get ready for a wave of proc mag sorcs lol. Patch is too new for the meta to be overrun yet, and the most obnoxious version of ranged sorc has yet to even be perfected...

So You admit that as it stands right now, magsorcs didn't overrun PvP and You just predict that this may happen?

You don’t know if magsorcs don’t overrun PvP either though, if we go by this logic

And I never claimed that I do. Only claim I made is that in first 2 weeks of U41 havn't been seeing magsorc PvP domination or anything close to it.

See that is why this isn’t a good point for determining whether Ward is overperforming or not because I see a lot of Sorcs. Both of us see different amounts of players and that isn’t accurate.

That’s why I go by CMX data and video clips that demonstrate how the weakness of this ability has been removed.

You are continously misinterpretating my words. I never said I don't see a lot of sorcs I said I don't see magsorcs dominating in actuall PvP.

Saying that You see a lot of sorcs is pretty weak argument because "lot of sorcs" was a thing for years. Before U41 sorc was still one of the most popular classes You would encounter in PvP which doesn't mean magsorc was one of the strongest ones.

Bushido2513

@StaticWave

So I had a chance to test the new ward today and I'll say it is and isn't overtuned. It's really going to come down to how many opponents you're dealing with and their level.

After first getting into the new patch I got into a couple of bgs with high mmr and basically felt the least tanky I've been in a while. Part of this was me getting used to ward and the other players knowing how to focus and dealing good damage.

So later I got into some regular fights and started to see ward being much stronger though still not all that OP for the odds I was choosing to face and also because my max mag was only like 40k or so due to my build preferences.

Honestly I don't care for this change, not because I feel like it's OP but because it's lazy and uninteresting. I didn't realize they basically did a copy paste on the bird heal just with no bird. There were better buffs to give and more creative ways to implement buffs. This one isn't fun to use or fun to go up against.

I no longer care if they keep it as is or nerf it because I'm going to go play something else for a while. Good luck to everyone else on this somehow turning out to be ok in spite of all the differing opinion.

Turtle_Bot

Jsmalls wrote: »

Galeriano2 wrote: »

Asylum destro will most propably not be used in PvP as much as many people think. It's highly overestimated especially for sorc.

It adds ~2000 damage every second cast of your spammable and allows the possibility of 9 damage instances on that second cast, 6 status effects and the 3 elements of damage with the bonus of 10 if your enchant also that lines up). Couple that with curse and crystal weapons and that's a lot of damage all at once, that's not dependent (and would hit harder) than a proc'd frag.

I tested this build during the PTS and it was... Underwhelming, particularly on sorc.

The one class I can see using this asylum staff build effectively is warden. The increased proc chance, status damage and damage done with a frost staff equipped actually adds up to a significant amount of bonus damage done with the asylums guaranteed status effects.

Sorc specifically lacks any of those particular passives that buff status effect chance/damage and the 5% bonus to shock damage is significantly less than the 12% to all damage warden gets from having a frost staff equipped, which leaves it very meh on sorc when compared to simply running draugrkin front bar that adds 1k to crushing shock alone (or up to 2.5k if you get lucky and proc all 3 status + poison glyph) and being front bar only instead of on the body, you don't suffer the 10% healing reduction penalty from draugrkin when you switch to the back bar.

Arcanist is the other class that could make the best use of this build, but it prefers class abilities and revolving around crux/beam/tentacle more than trying to spam force pulse for status effects.

Galeriano2

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Galeriano2 wrote: »

So You admit that as it stands right now, magsorcs didn't overrun PvP and You just predict that this may happen?

My comrade in Cyrodiil, I predicted this in December 2022.

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Healing is supposed to be secondary to damage shields for this style Sorc, and I promise you that you do not want to fight a Sorc that can both stack shields and heal like crazy. The last thing we need is more accidental healing buffs.

Doesn't seem like a prediction though but rather stating the obvious combined with personal opinion.

Zabagad

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

I tested this build during the PTS and it was... Underwhelming, particularly on sorc.

So now we are 3 with that result, that gives me more convidence, that we maybe are not wrong

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

The one class I can see using this asylum staff build effectively is warden. The increased proc chance, status damage and damage done with a frost staff equipped actually adds up to a significant amount of bonus damage done with the asylums guaranteed status effects.

Ty - I knew that there is a class - but unlike you I don't know all that without researching. DK has some buffs on burning/poisened, but that sounds like warden could be best for that kind of build.

As I said before - I think that discussion is missleading and has nothing to do with the Sorc changes...

StaticWave

Here are 2 more examples of Hardened Ward being absolutely broken even with lower max mag. I got my friend to hop on Warden and DK in a full pressure build. I was in Malubeth/Rally/Wretched/SSC with 35.6k HP and VAMP 2. Here are the results of the DPS test:

Warden DPS and my healing:






DK DPS and my healing:






In both tests, Hardened Ward scaled with max HP instead, and at 35.6k HP and VAMP 2, I was able to tank up to 8.4k DPS for a sustained 2 minute fight. Keep in mind, this is just with Ward, Vigor, and Surge. I wasn't weaving Blood Magic healing, dodge rolling, or using Streak.

So as I've stated earlier in this thread, pressure builds CANNOT kill a Sorc anymore. The only chance of killing a Sorc is with perfectly timed burst to 100-0 them. You cannot do that vs a good player. If the counter play is so difficult to pull off, then is it really counter play?

xylena_lazarow

StaticWave wrote: »

So as I've stated earlier in this thread, pressure builds CANNOT kill a Sorc anymore. The only chance of killing a Sorc is with perfectly timed burst to 100-0 them. You cannot do that vs a good player. If the counter play is so difficult to pull off, then is it really counter play?

Good shield sorcs aren't going to just eat a 100-0 burst either. So you're either stalling waiting for the sorc to screw up badly enough, or you're zerging down the highly mobile ranged nuke like you would have to zerg down a brick tank.

Zerging and stalling, the two most fun forms of pvp!

StaticWave

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

So as I've stated earlier in this thread, pressure builds CANNOT kill a Sorc anymore. The only chance of killing a Sorc is with perfectly timed burst to 100-0 them. You cannot do that vs a good player. If the counter play is so difficult to pull off, then is it really counter play?

Good shield sorcs aren't going to just eat a 100-0 burst either. So you're either stalling waiting for the sorc to screw up badly enough, or you're zerging down the highly mobile ranged nuke like you would have to zerg down a brick tank.

Zerging and stalling, the two most fun forms of pvp!

Right? Shield is just busted and you can make a build that does dmg and have insane survivability. The class legitimately feels like a single target Warden right now but with Streak lol. I’m enjoying it, but it just doesn’t feel fair at all.

xylena_lazarow

StaticWave wrote: »

I’m enjoying it, but it just doesn’t feel fair at all.

I'm reuniting with my sorc in 4 days but I'm torn between "I should abuse this" and "this is too broken to enjoy abusing."

TechMaybeHic

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

So as I've stated earlier in this thread, pressure builds CANNOT kill a Sorc anymore. The only chance of killing a Sorc is with perfectly timed burst to 100-0 them. You cannot do that vs a good player. If the counter play is so difficult to pull off, then is it really counter play?

Good shield sorcs aren't going to just eat a 100-0 burst either. So you're either stalling waiting for the sorc to screw up badly enough, or you're zerging down the highly mobile ranged nuke like you would have to zerg down a brick tank.

Zerging and stalling, the two most fun forms of pvp!

Isn't that what PvP boils down to in Cyrodiil anymore? You're either the one zerging, being zerged, or the one running around LOS delaying being zerged hoping you take one or two with you

Jsmalls

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Jsmalls wrote: »

Galeriano2 wrote: »

Asylum destro will most propably not be used in PvP as much as many people think. It's highly overestimated especially for sorc.

It adds ~2000 damage every second cast of your spammable and allows the possibility of 9 damage instances on that second cast, 6 status effects and the 3 elements of damage with the bonus of 10 if your enchant also that lines up). Couple that with curse and crystal weapons and that's a lot of damage all at once, that's not dependent (and would hit harder) than a proc'd frag.

I tested this build during the PTS and it was... Underwhelming, particularly on sorc.

The one class I can see using this asylum staff build effectively is warden. The increased proc chance, status damage and damage done with a frost staff equipped actually adds up to a significant amount of bonus damage done with the asylums guaranteed status effects.

Sorc specifically lacks any of those particular passives that buff status effect chance/damage and the 5% bonus to shock damage is significantly less than the 12% to all damage warden gets from having a frost staff equipped, which leaves it very meh on sorc when compared to simply running draugrkin front bar that adds 1k to crushing shock alone (or up to 2.5k if you get lucky and proc all 3 status + poison glyph) and being front bar only instead of on the body, you don't suffer the 10% healing reduction penalty from draugrkin when you switch to the back bar.

Arcanist is the other class that could make the best use of this build, but it prefers class abilities and revolving around crux/beam/tentacle more than trying to spam force pulse for status effects.

I'm looking at the ability to weave it with crystal weapons. It's just a lot of consistent damage. Or variable burst damage with the ability to use the first crystal weapon skill damage with an Overload light attack, and 2nd asylum force pulse comboed with Curse to do A LOT of damage in a gcd.

But yes Warden was generally the class using Asylum on PTS against me, both due to frost staff passive (with brittle bonus) and chill passive giving it a larger boost. But the brittle is the key factor because they lose the 12% from lightning staff which about makes up for their class passive bonus using ice staff.

jaws343

Did some PVP on my sorc a bit last night. About what I expected. Survivability has increased, but still, being targeted by 2+ players in a BG is either a ward spam scenario, with zero returning pressure, or a flee scenario. So pretty much exactly like it was before, only now, I don't have to hope that my DOT heal is going to pull me out of execute at the same time my shield is being erased as soon as I put it on. Still dying though unless I flee/kite around.

Damage wise, sure, my tooltips are higher. But the sacrifice in dropping wrath to slot a mag booster passive skill essentially means that I am only killing bad players who don't heal at low health or are already being pressured by other players. A whole lot of damage output, but very little return for it with actual kills.

Xzysts

I mean sure... in dueling it is strong, but outside of that not really. You are still gonna get nuked when you get 3-4 people on you. Been seeing it over and over and over. Strong? Yes... Busted? Eh...

A good sorc will be better.... a bad sorc will still be bad...

xylena_lazarow

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

Isn't that what PvP boils down to in Cyrodiil anymore? You're either the one zerging, being zerged, or the one running around LOS delaying being zerged hoping you take one or two with you

Well yea that's the whole "tank meta" problem, which is probably one of many things holding this PvP back from being more popular, and the new broken Ward just makes it worse. This PvP needs more tools to punish stalling, instead they're making stalling even more overpowered. There's good reason why those massively popular open world battle royale PvP games have a shrinking perimeter mechanic, or why pro sports leagues change the rules to make games more high scoring.

xylena_lazarow

Jsmalls wrote: »

I'm looking at the ability to weave it with crystal weapons. It's just a lot of consistent damage. Or variable burst damage with the ability to use the first crystal weapon skill damage with an Overload light attack, and 2nd asylum force pulse comboed with Curse to do A LOT of damage in a gcd.

Status effect damage also does scale with max mag from what I've read, making Asylum Destro probably the only damage proc set to benefit from stacking mag, the right build configuration and rotation just needs to be found.

StaticWave

Xzysts wrote: »

I mean sure... in dueling it is strong, but outside of that not really. You are still gonna get nuked when you get 3-4 people on you. Been seeing it over and over and over. Strong? Yes... Busted? Eh...

A good sorc will be better.... a bad sorc will still be bad...

Any class in a full dmg build will get nuked by 3-4 ppl. Let’s stop using this straw man argument lol.

The whole point though is Sorc is super mobile and also tanky. Only 1 other class can achieve this, which is NB, which is also overperforming.