Hardened Ward heal making it to live is a mistake and needs to be changed

xylena_lazarow

StaticWave wrote: »

The whole point though is Sorc is super mobile and also tanky. Only 1 other class can achieve this, which is NB, which is also overperforming.

Even an overperforming NB still needs to use 3 different buttons for Healthy Offering, Vigor, and Refreshing Path just to match what Sorcs are doing with the absolutely broken 1 button Hardened Ward.

Anecdotally, not a single serious Sorc main I'm acquainted with is in favor this change. One magsorc main friend of mine, who returned to the game after waiting for years for a buff to his favorite class, left again in disgust after just one day.

Galeriano2

StaticWave wrote: »

Here are 2 more examples of Hardened Ward being absolutely broken even with lower max mag. I got my friend to hop on Warden and DK in a full pressure build. I was in Malubeth/Rally/Wretched/SSC with 35.6k HP and VAMP 2. Here are the results of the DPS test:

Warden DPS and my healing:






DK DPS and my healing:






In both tests, Hardened Ward scaled with max HP instead, and at 35.6k HP and VAMP 2, I was able to tank up to 8.4k DPS for a sustained 2 minute fight. Keep in mind, this is just with Ward, Vigor, and Surge. I wasn't weaving Blood Magic healing, dodge rolling, or using Streak.

So as I've stated earlier in this thread, pressure builds CANNOT kill a Sorc anymore. The only chance of killing a Sorc is with perfectly timed burst to 100-0 them. You cannot do that vs a good player. If the counter play is so difficult to pull off, then is it really counter play?

Those are still pure duels and the thing is magsorc was capable to survive lots of pressure in a staged duel even before U41. Ward change didn't suddenly turn magsorc overnight from dying to a sneeze to surviving 7k DPS. Screenshots above show that sorc just joined the club of setups being able to completly turtle up in bergama. That alone doesn't make it top PvP class for U41 and doesn't prove it is top PvP class.

No matter how many duel screenshots You will provide it really won't matter in determining wheter magsorc is or isn't as strong as You suggest in entirety of PvP.

StaticWave

Galeriano2 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Here are 2 more examples of Hardened Ward being absolutely broken even with lower max mag. I got my friend to hop on Warden and DK in a full pressure build. I was in Malubeth/Rally/Wretched/SSC with 35.6k HP and VAMP 2. Here are the results of the DPS test:

Warden DPS and my healing:






DK DPS and my healing:






In both tests, Hardened Ward scaled with max HP instead, and at 35.6k HP and VAMP 2, I was able to tank up to 8.4k DPS for a sustained 2 minute fight. Keep in mind, this is just with Ward, Vigor, and Surge. I wasn't weaving Blood Magic healing, dodge rolling, or using Streak.

So as I've stated earlier in this thread, pressure builds CANNOT kill a Sorc anymore. The only chance of killing a Sorc is with perfectly timed burst to 100-0 them. You cannot do that vs a good player. If the counter play is so difficult to pull off, then is it really counter play?

Those are still pure duels and the thing is magsorc was capable to survive lots of pressure in a staged duel even before U41. Ward change didn't suddenly turn magsorc overnight from dying to a sneeze to surviving 7k DPS. Screenshots above show that sorc just joined the club of setups being able to completly turtle up in bergama. That alone doesn't make it top PvP class for U41 and doesn't prove it is top PvP class.

No matter how many duel screenshots You will provide it really won't matter in determining wheter magsorc is or isn't as strong as You suggest in entirety of PvP.

No magsorc or any class could survive 8k dps last patch in a full dmg build. I duel and test DPS more than anyone here so you can’t fool me with lies lol.

We literally have a dueling guild that host dueling tournaments in no rules and nobody there could tank 8k dps in a full dmg build either.

So you can accept that Sorc is currently overperforming, or you can deny it and the class stays broken for several patches. It doesnt hurt me at all. I only benefit from this, but i’m still trying to be objective.

StaticWave

Galeriano2 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Here are 2 more examples of Hardened Ward being absolutely broken even with lower max mag. I got my friend to hop on Warden and DK in a full pressure build. I was in Malubeth/Rally/Wretched/SSC with 35.6k HP and VAMP 2. Here are the results of the DPS test:

Warden DPS and my healing:






DK DPS and my healing:






In both tests, Hardened Ward scaled with max HP instead, and at 35.6k HP and VAMP 2, I was able to tank up to 8.4k DPS for a sustained 2 minute fight. Keep in mind, this is just with Ward, Vigor, and Surge. I wasn't weaving Blood Magic healing, dodge rolling, or using Streak.

So as I've stated earlier in this thread, pressure builds CANNOT kill a Sorc anymore. The only chance of killing a Sorc is with perfectly timed burst to 100-0 them. You cannot do that vs a good player. If the counter play is so difficult to pull off, then is it really counter play?

Those are still pure duels and the thing is magsorc was capable to survive lots of pressure in a staged duel even before U41. Ward change didn't suddenly turn magsorc overnight from dying to a sneeze to surviving 7k DPS. Screenshots above show that sorc just joined the club of setups being able to completly turtle up in bergama. That alone doesn't make it top PvP class for U41 and doesn't prove it is top PvP class.

No matter how many duel screenshots You will provide it really won't matter in determining wheter magsorc is or isn't as strong as You suggest in entirety of PvP.

And if you think any class other than Sorc in a full damage build can sit and face tank a DK with Zaan, mDW, Vate, without cleansing anything, and not break a sweat, then you are deeply in denial.

Why don’t you prove that to me if you want to defend this ability so much? If you’re on PC NA, please pick a time, go to stormhaven on other classes in a full dmg build, and tank 8.4k dps for me. I’ll have all my friends duel you.

xylena_lazarow

Galeriano2 wrote: »

Screenshots above show that sorc just joined the club of setups being able to completly turtle up in bergama.

Do the other members of the club do it with only 1 button and some passives slotted?

BTW earlier I posted CMX from a non-staged 10min 1v1 in the wilds of Cyro between open world builds.

sharquez

What if we just brought back old shield breaker and sloads? Bust this tank/sheild meta wide open?

Galeriano2

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Galeriano2 wrote: »

Screenshots above show that sorc just joined the club of setups being able to completly turtle up in bergama.

Do the other members of the club do it with only 1 button and some passives slotted?

BTW earlier I posted CMX from a non-staged 10min 1v1 in the wilds of Cyro between open world builds.

Do the other members of that club are lacking usefull secondary effects on their abilities to the point mighty chudan is one of the top set choices?

It's double edged sword. Yes ward is braindead easy to use but the thing is if You remove burst heal from it and move it somwhere else or You just change it to a HoT without completly redesigning magsorc kit than magsorc is going back into mediocrity. There is no middleground here. And the issue here is that ZoS doesn't wan't to redesign magsorc kit and update it to standards that basically all the other classes are following these days.

I get the point You're trying to make but in all honesty GCD is a GCD and within one GCD You still cast one ability so the only difference between sorc is that he is mashing 1 button when other classes are mashing 1 plus another one or two periodically. Like I could build 50k HP warden and turtle up with polar wind spam combined with vigor used once every 20 seconds which really isn't that much more skillfull.

CMX You posted and commentary to it actually suggest that magsorc is not that great.

xylena_lazarow

Following up to my earlier post regarding 1v1s with magsorcs in the wilds of Cyro, here's another one, this time between two weird versions of meta builds on top of a tower: dw/bow pressure DK, and 2h/destro dizzy magsorc. My opponent was an unusually good player. We agreed to call it a draw after 5 minutes. Here is my damage.


Here's the Sorc launching 12k frags, 11k dbs, 9k curses, and 8k dizzies.


This post is not to say whether I should've won. It is to say that against this strong Sorc player, staying healed meant I needed to use all of Coag Blood, Vigor, Cinder Storm, and landing my Blood Craze. The Sorc needed only to spam Hardened Ward to stay healed, as their Surge had nothing to proc from when they were on the defensive. 1 button vs 4 buttons.

Hardened Ward is stronger than Coag Blood, Vigor, Cinder Storm, and one standard HoT combined.

Xzysts

StaticWave wrote: »

Xzysts wrote: »

I mean sure... in dueling it is strong, but outside of that not really. You are still gonna get nuked when you get 3-4 people on you. Been seeing it over and over and over. Strong? Yes... Busted? Eh...

A good sorc will be better.... a bad sorc will still be bad...

Any class in a full dmg build will get nuked by 3-4 ppl. Let’s stop using this straw man argument lol.

The whole point though is Sorc is super mobile and also tanky. Only 1 other class can achieve this, which is NB, which is also overperforming.

I agree with both of those statements in some capacity, but if they will not amend nightblade... which they will more than likely not do... I do not think they should nuke its competition. Rather, bring everything else up to par in some way shape or form. It is a double edged sword either way you cut it really. Nerf sorc, nerf nightblade, buff this or buff that... somebody is going to be the top dog...

personally I think they should have gotten no shield heal, and no new "burst" heal, but make dark deal have a shorter cast time. Maybe .5sec instead of 1 second. Perhaps, make it uninterruptable as well. I think the true problem lies with its class identity revolving around shields and pets which is probably also not going to change.

xylena_lazarow

Galeriano2 wrote: »

CMX You posted and commentary to it actually suggest that magsorc is not that great.

My Arc had to use Impervious Ward, Vigor, and Blood Craze to stay healed. 3 buttons.

The Sorc only had to use Hardened Ward, and did it against higher incoming damage. These Sorcs I'm fighting aren't using dots so they're not getting any Surge procs when they go defensive, it's all Ward spam. 1 button.

Hardened Ward is stronger than Impervious Ward, Vigor, and a standard HoT combined.

Remember when people were crying for Impervious nerfs?

Xzysts

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Following up to my earlier post regarding 1v1s with magsorcs in the wilds of Cyro, here's another one, this time between two weird versions of meta builds on top of a tower: dw/bow pressure DK, and 2h/destro dizzy magsorc. My opponent was an unusually good player. We agreed to call it a draw after 5 minutes. Here is my damage.


Here's the Sorc launching 12k frags, 11k dbs, 9k curses, and 8k dizzies.


This post is not to say whether I should've won. It is to say that against this strong Sorc player, staying healed meant I needed to use all of Coag Blood, Vigor, Cinder Storm, and landing my Blood Craze. The Sorc needed only to spam Hardened Ward to stay healed, as their Surge had nothing to proc from when they were on the defensive. 1 button vs 4 buttons.

Hardened Ward is stronger than Coag Blood, Vigor, Cinder Storm, and one standard HoT combined.

Insightful, but what are your thoughts and recommended change? Truly, I am interested in this conversation... In essence Sorc is relying on the ability to remain vigilant in spamming its shield. The thought of it is to be proactive vs reactive towards the dmg. I think they would have to change its identity to fix it properly. I am not saying they should or shouldn't do that. Just an observation that could fix it..

Galeriano2

StaticWave wrote: »

Galeriano2 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Here are 2 more examples of Hardened Ward being absolutely broken even with lower max mag. I got my friend to hop on Warden and DK in a full pressure build. I was in Malubeth/Rally/Wretched/SSC with 35.6k HP and VAMP 2. Here are the results of the DPS test:

Warden DPS and my healing:






DK DPS and my healing:






In both tests, Hardened Ward scaled with max HP instead, and at 35.6k HP and VAMP 2, I was able to tank up to 8.4k DPS for a sustained 2 minute fight. Keep in mind, this is just with Ward, Vigor, and Surge. I wasn't weaving Blood Magic healing, dodge rolling, or using Streak.

So as I've stated earlier in this thread, pressure builds CANNOT kill a Sorc anymore. The only chance of killing a Sorc is with perfectly timed burst to 100-0 them. You cannot do that vs a good player. If the counter play is so difficult to pull off, then is it really counter play?

Those are still pure duels and the thing is magsorc was capable to survive lots of pressure in a staged duel even before U41. Ward change didn't suddenly turn magsorc overnight from dying to a sneeze to surviving 7k DPS. Screenshots above show that sorc just joined the club of setups being able to completly turtle up in bergama. That alone doesn't make it top PvP class for U41 and doesn't prove it is top PvP class.

No matter how many duel screenshots You will provide it really won't matter in determining wheter magsorc is or isn't as strong as You suggest in entirety of PvP.

And if you think any class other than Sorc in a full damage build can sit and face tank a DK with Zaan, mDW, Vate, without cleansing anything, and not break a sweat, then you are deeply in denial.

Why don’t you prove that to me if you want to defend this ability so much? If you’re on PC NA, please pick a time, go to stormhaven on other classes in a full dmg build, and tank 8.4k dps for me. I’ll have all my friends duel you.

StaticWave wrote: »

Galeriano2 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Here are 2 more examples of Hardened Ward being absolutely broken even with lower max mag. I got my friend to hop on Warden and DK in a full pressure build. I was in Malubeth/Rally/Wretched/SSC with 35.6k HP and VAMP 2. Here are the results of the DPS test:

Warden DPS and my healing:






DK DPS and my healing:






In both tests, Hardened Ward scaled with max HP instead, and at 35.6k HP and VAMP 2, I was able to tank up to 8.4k DPS for a sustained 2 minute fight. Keep in mind, this is just with Ward, Vigor, and Surge. I wasn't weaving Blood Magic healing, dodge rolling, or using Streak.

So as I've stated earlier in this thread, pressure builds CANNOT kill a Sorc anymore. The only chance of killing a Sorc is with perfectly timed burst to 100-0 them. You cannot do that vs a good player. If the counter play is so difficult to pull off, then is it really counter play?

Those are still pure duels and the thing is magsorc was capable to survive lots of pressure in a staged duel even before U41. Ward change didn't suddenly turn magsorc overnight from dying to a sneeze to surviving 7k DPS. Screenshots above show that sorc just joined the club of setups being able to completly turtle up in bergama. That alone doesn't make it top PvP class for U41 and doesn't prove it is top PvP class.

No matter how many duel screenshots You will provide it really won't matter in determining wheter magsorc is or isn't as strong as You suggest in entirety of PvP.

No magsorc or any class could survive 8k dps last patch in a full dmg build. I duel and test DPS more than anyone here so you can’t fool me with lies lol.

We literally have a dueling guild that host dueling tournaments in no rules and nobody there could tank 8k dps in a full dmg build either.

So you can accept that Sorc is currently overperforming, or you can deny it and the class stays broken for several patches. It doesnt hurt me at all. I only benefit from this, but i’m still trying to be objective.

First of all what is a full damage build, because wearing malubeth and saying about full dmg build sounds wierd to me. Could I make 50k HP warden with malubeth, rallying cry and high resistances and claim I am running in full dmg build? Because if yes than surviving 8k DPS wouldn't be an issue in a "full dmg build".

Second thing is we don't know how these duels linked by You were actually looking. 8k DPS means nothing without context. Like I don't know wheter enemies were just parsing You like a dummy without burst windows combined with stuns, interrupts and trying to weaken Your sustain and defense from ice staff HA or were they actually trying. Pure 8k DPS claim doesn't say much.

Thirdly it's getting tiresome to continously point out that You are putting words into my mouth that I didn't said. I am not defending a hardened ward neither I am saying that magsorc is or isn't broken atm. All I am saying that I still havn't seen a magsorcs overtaking PvP and demolishing everyone which should happen if I was to completly belive this thread.

I appreciate that You have so much faith in me to say quote "you can accept that Sorc is currently overperforming, or you can deny it and the class stays broken for several patches" but I really don't think devs are relying on my opinions so much to balance the game purely around them. Sometimes most objective thing to do is to wait and see how things develop instead of relying on subjective thought of being objective.

We will not see any changes until U42 anyway due to ZoS's policy of dealing with combat changes so waiting is only thing we have and all the passion that was put into this thread would be way better spent at the end of U41 when all the opinions would be more clear and easier to prove which would also make them potentially more impactfull.

xylena_lazarow

Xzysts wrote: »

Insightful, but what are your thoughts and recommended change? Truly, I am interested in this conversation... In essence Sorc is relying on the ability to remain vigilant in spamming its shield. The thought of it is to be proactive vs reactive towards the dmg.

Completely remove the heal, full duration 15k shields that activate relevant passives are fine on their own. Staple a double bar major crit chance buff to a core class skill like Crystal or whatever, like what they did with NB cloak (lol). Now Sorcs have a free bar slot to put a burst heal like Vibrant Shroud, or start stacking Resto Healing Ward again (a properly balanced healy shield), or slot a HoT skill like Vigor, and so on. Their power ceiling wouldn't really drop all that much, but the proactive and reactive components of their kit would be better in line with the rest of the game.

Galeriano2

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Galeriano2 wrote: »

CMX You posted and commentary to it actually suggest that magsorc is not that great.

My Arc had to use Impervious Ward, Vigor, and Blood Craze to stay healed. 3 buttons.

The Sorc only had to use Hardened Ward, and did it against higher incoming damage. These Sorcs I'm fighting aren't using dots so they're not getting any Surge procs when they go defensive, it's all Ward spam. 1 button.

Hardened Ward is stronger than Impervious Ward, Vigor, and a standard HoT combined.

Remember when people were crying for Impervious nerfs?

And? Was sorc You using ward outside of GCD?

The thing with one button argument is that it's not looking at the bigger picture like rest of the toolkit. Ward doesn't seem to be stronger than Imprevious ward, vigor and standard HoT combined if You were able to push that sorc heavily into ward spam while maintaining Your defense only periodically. It looks like You with using Your defenses only once in a while which allowed You to spend more time on dealing damage had better defense than sorc that was spamming ward for majority of a fight.

Here is a question. If that sorc according to Your claims was experienced and he had such an OP defensive ability in his kit than why You were able to push him so heavily into defense that as You Yourself said quote "The sorc was on his back foot the entire time with low chance to win"?

xylena_lazarow

Galeriano2 wrote: »

Here is a question. If that sorc according to Your claims was experienced and he had such an OP defensive ability in his kit than why You were able to push him so heavily into defense that as You Yourself said quote "The sorc was on his back foot the entire time with low chance to win"?

Do you want my ESO resume or something? If this were a real game I'd post my ELO here.

Broken doesn't mean unbeatable. Ward gives Sorc an egregious healing kit advantage, but it can still be outplayed.

How about this. We leave Ward as is, and bring back pre-nerf Shield Breaker with the Oblivion damage. We're also gonna bring back Oblivion enchants proccing off full penetration flat scaling MDW bleed ticks. Deal? Dark Deal?

Galeriano2

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Galeriano2 wrote: »

Here is a question. If that sorc according to Your claims was experienced and he had such an OP defensive ability in his kit than why You were able to push him so heavily into defense that as You Yourself said quote "The sorc was on his back foot the entire time with low chance to win"?

Do you want my ESO resume or something? If this were a real game I'd post my ELO here.

Broken doesn't mean unbeatable. Ward gives Sorc an egregious healing kit advantage, but it can still be outplayed.

How about this. We leave Ward as is, and bring back pre-nerf Shield Breaker with the Oblivion damage. We're also gonna bring back Oblivion enchants proccing off full penetration flat scaling MDW bleed ticks. Deal? Dark Deal?

I just asked a simple question which.

If ward gives sorc egregious healing kit adventage than why You were able to keep better defense and offense while using Your defensive abilities less?

Thing with bringing back pre nerf shieldbreaker and other mentioned things is that You would also have to bring some of the pre nerf sorc features that pushed devs to releasing shieldbreaker and at that point I dont think healing on hardened ward would be the biggest issue.

StaticWave

Galeriano2 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Galeriano2 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Here are 2 more examples of Hardened Ward being absolutely broken even with lower max mag. I got my friend to hop on Warden and DK in a full pressure build. I was in Malubeth/Rally/Wretched/SSC with 35.6k HP and VAMP 2. Here are the results of the DPS test:

Warden DPS and my healing:






DK DPS and my healing:






In both tests, Hardened Ward scaled with max HP instead, and at 35.6k HP and VAMP 2, I was able to tank up to 8.4k DPS for a sustained 2 minute fight. Keep in mind, this is just with Ward, Vigor, and Surge. I wasn't weaving Blood Magic healing, dodge rolling, or using Streak.

So as I've stated earlier in this thread, pressure builds CANNOT kill a Sorc anymore. The only chance of killing a Sorc is with perfectly timed burst to 100-0 them. You cannot do that vs a good player. If the counter play is so difficult to pull off, then is it really counter play?

Those are still pure duels and the thing is magsorc was capable to survive lots of pressure in a staged duel even before U41. Ward change didn't suddenly turn magsorc overnight from dying to a sneeze to surviving 7k DPS. Screenshots above show that sorc just joined the club of setups being able to completly turtle up in bergama. That alone doesn't make it top PvP class for U41 and doesn't prove it is top PvP class.

No matter how many duel screenshots You will provide it really won't matter in determining wheter magsorc is or isn't as strong as You suggest in entirety of PvP.

And if you think any class other than Sorc in a full damage build can sit and face tank a DK with Zaan, mDW, Vate, without cleansing anything, and not break a sweat, then you are deeply in denial.

Why don’t you prove that to me if you want to defend this ability so much? If you’re on PC NA, please pick a time, go to stormhaven on other classes in a full dmg build, and tank 8.4k dps for me. I’ll have all my friends duel you.

StaticWave wrote: »

Galeriano2 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Here are 2 more examples of Hardened Ward being absolutely broken even with lower max mag. I got my friend to hop on Warden and DK in a full pressure build. I was in Malubeth/Rally/Wretched/SSC with 35.6k HP and VAMP 2. Here are the results of the DPS test:

Warden DPS and my healing:






DK DPS and my healing:






In both tests, Hardened Ward scaled with max HP instead, and at 35.6k HP and VAMP 2, I was able to tank up to 8.4k DPS for a sustained 2 minute fight. Keep in mind, this is just with Ward, Vigor, and Surge. I wasn't weaving Blood Magic healing, dodge rolling, or using Streak.

So as I've stated earlier in this thread, pressure builds CANNOT kill a Sorc anymore. The only chance of killing a Sorc is with perfectly timed burst to 100-0 them. You cannot do that vs a good player. If the counter play is so difficult to pull off, then is it really counter play?

Those are still pure duels and the thing is magsorc was capable to survive lots of pressure in a staged duel even before U41. Ward change didn't suddenly turn magsorc overnight from dying to a sneeze to surviving 7k DPS. Screenshots above show that sorc just joined the club of setups being able to completly turtle up in bergama. That alone doesn't make it top PvP class for U41 and doesn't prove it is top PvP class.

No matter how many duel screenshots You will provide it really won't matter in determining wheter magsorc is or isn't as strong as You suggest in entirety of PvP.

No magsorc or any class could survive 8k dps last patch in a full dmg build. I duel and test DPS more than anyone here so you can’t fool me with lies lol.

We literally have a dueling guild that host dueling tournaments in no rules and nobody there could tank 8k dps in a full dmg build either.

So you can accept that Sorc is currently overperforming, or you can deny it and the class stays broken for several patches. It doesnt hurt me at all. I only benefit from this, but i’m still trying to be objective.

First of all what is a full damage build, because wearing malubeth and saying about full dmg build sounds wierd to me. Could I make 50k HP warden with malubeth, rallying cry and high resistances and claim I am running in full dmg build? Because if yes than surviving 8k DPS wouldn't be an issue in a "full dmg build".

Second thing is we don't know how these duels linked by You were actually looking. 8k DPS means nothing without context. Like I don't know wheter enemies were just parsing You like a dummy without burst windows combined with stuns, interrupts and trying to weaken Your sustain and defense from ice staff HA or were they actually trying. Pure 8k DPS claim doesn't say much.

Thirdly it's getting tiresome to continously point out that You are putting words into my mouth that I didn't said. I am not defending a hardened ward neither I am saying that magsorc is or isn't broken atm. All I am saying that I still havn't seen a magsorcs overtaking PvP and demolishing everyone which should happen if I was to completly belive this thread.

I appreciate that You have so much faith in me to say quote "you can accept that Sorc is currently overperforming, or you can deny it and the class stays broken for several patches" but I really don't think devs are relying on my opinions so much to balance the game purely around them. Sometimes most objective thing to do is to wait and see how things develop instead of relying on subjective thought of being objective.

We will not see any changes until U42 anyway due to ZoS's policy of dealing with combat changes so waiting is only thing we have and all the passion that was put into this thread would be way better spent at the end of U41 when all the opinions would be more clear and easier to prove which would also make them potentially more impactfull.

30k stam, 110% crit dmg, Major Berserk, 16k pen, 6k weapon dmg, 40% crit chance, and Essence thief. Good enough of a full dmg build for u?

A DK with Zaan/mDW/Vate parsing and CCing me off cooldown means nothing? Do you understand how high 8k DPS is? It’s hard to explain to you when you don’t look at CMX lol.

StaticWave

Galeriano2 wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Galeriano2 wrote: »

Here is a question. If that sorc according to Your claims was experienced and he had such an OP defensive ability in his kit than why You were able to push him so heavily into defense that as You Yourself said quote "The sorc was on his back foot the entire time with low chance to win"?

Do you want my ESO resume or something? If this were a real game I'd post my ELO here.

Broken doesn't mean unbeatable. Ward gives Sorc an egregious healing kit advantage, but it can still be outplayed.

How about this. We leave Ward as is, and bring back pre-nerf Shield Breaker with the Oblivion damage. We're also gonna bring back Oblivion enchants proccing off full penetration flat scaling MDW bleed ticks. Deal? Dark Deal?

I just asked a simple question which.

If ward gives sorc egregious healing kit adventage than why You were able to keep better defense and offense while using Your defensive abilities less?

Thing with bringing back pre nerf shieldbreaker and other mentioned things is that You would also have to bring some of the pre nerf sorc features that pushed devs to releasing shieldbreaker and at that point I dont think healing on hardened ward would be the biggest issue.

This shield version is stronger than any previous shield version because of the burst heal. Shield breaker wouldnt do anything.

Galeriano2

StaticWave wrote: »

Galeriano2 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Galeriano2 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Here are 2 more examples of Hardened Ward being absolutely broken even with lower max mag. I got my friend to hop on Warden and DK in a full pressure build. I was in Malubeth/Rally/Wretched/SSC with 35.6k HP and VAMP 2. Here are the results of the DPS test:

Warden DPS and my healing:






DK DPS and my healing:






In both tests, Hardened Ward scaled with max HP instead, and at 35.6k HP and VAMP 2, I was able to tank up to 8.4k DPS for a sustained 2 minute fight. Keep in mind, this is just with Ward, Vigor, and Surge. I wasn't weaving Blood Magic healing, dodge rolling, or using Streak.

So as I've stated earlier in this thread, pressure builds CANNOT kill a Sorc anymore. The only chance of killing a Sorc is with perfectly timed burst to 100-0 them. You cannot do that vs a good player. If the counter play is so difficult to pull off, then is it really counter play?

Those are still pure duels and the thing is magsorc was capable to survive lots of pressure in a staged duel even before U41. Ward change didn't suddenly turn magsorc overnight from dying to a sneeze to surviving 7k DPS. Screenshots above show that sorc just joined the club of setups being able to completly turtle up in bergama. That alone doesn't make it top PvP class for U41 and doesn't prove it is top PvP class.

No matter how many duel screenshots You will provide it really won't matter in determining wheter magsorc is or isn't as strong as You suggest in entirety of PvP.

And if you think any class other than Sorc in a full damage build can sit and face tank a DK with Zaan, mDW, Vate, without cleansing anything, and not break a sweat, then you are deeply in denial.

Why don’t you prove that to me if you want to defend this ability so much? If you’re on PC NA, please pick a time, go to stormhaven on other classes in a full dmg build, and tank 8.4k dps for me. I’ll have all my friends duel you.

StaticWave wrote: »

Galeriano2 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Here are 2 more examples of Hardened Ward being absolutely broken even with lower max mag. I got my friend to hop on Warden and DK in a full pressure build. I was in Malubeth/Rally/Wretched/SSC with 35.6k HP and VAMP 2. Here are the results of the DPS test:

Warden DPS and my healing:






DK DPS and my healing:






In both tests, Hardened Ward scaled with max HP instead, and at 35.6k HP and VAMP 2, I was able to tank up to 8.4k DPS for a sustained 2 minute fight. Keep in mind, this is just with Ward, Vigor, and Surge. I wasn't weaving Blood Magic healing, dodge rolling, or using Streak.

So as I've stated earlier in this thread, pressure builds CANNOT kill a Sorc anymore. The only chance of killing a Sorc is with perfectly timed burst to 100-0 them. You cannot do that vs a good player. If the counter play is so difficult to pull off, then is it really counter play?

Those are still pure duels and the thing is magsorc was capable to survive lots of pressure in a staged duel even before U41. Ward change didn't suddenly turn magsorc overnight from dying to a sneeze to surviving 7k DPS. Screenshots above show that sorc just joined the club of setups being able to completly turtle up in bergama. That alone doesn't make it top PvP class for U41 and doesn't prove it is top PvP class.

No matter how many duel screenshots You will provide it really won't matter in determining wheter magsorc is or isn't as strong as You suggest in entirety of PvP.

No magsorc or any class could survive 8k dps last patch in a full dmg build. I duel and test DPS more than anyone here so you can’t fool me with lies lol.

We literally have a dueling guild that host dueling tournaments in no rules and nobody there could tank 8k dps in a full dmg build either.

So you can accept that Sorc is currently overperforming, or you can deny it and the class stays broken for several patches. It doesnt hurt me at all. I only benefit from this, but i’m still trying to be objective.

First of all what is a full damage build, because wearing malubeth and saying about full dmg build sounds wierd to me. Could I make 50k HP warden with malubeth, rallying cry and high resistances and claim I am running in full dmg build? Because if yes than surviving 8k DPS wouldn't be an issue in a "full dmg build".

Second thing is we don't know how these duels linked by You were actually looking. 8k DPS means nothing without context. Like I don't know wheter enemies were just parsing You like a dummy without burst windows combined with stuns, interrupts and trying to weaken Your sustain and defense from ice staff HA or were they actually trying. Pure 8k DPS claim doesn't say much.

Thirdly it's getting tiresome to continously point out that You are putting words into my mouth that I didn't said. I am not defending a hardened ward neither I am saying that magsorc is or isn't broken atm. All I am saying that I still havn't seen a magsorcs overtaking PvP and demolishing everyone which should happen if I was to completly belive this thread.

I appreciate that You have so much faith in me to say quote "you can accept that Sorc is currently overperforming, or you can deny it and the class stays broken for several patches" but I really don't think devs are relying on my opinions so much to balance the game purely around them. Sometimes most objective thing to do is to wait and see how things develop instead of relying on subjective thought of being objective.

We will not see any changes until U42 anyway due to ZoS's policy of dealing with combat changes so waiting is only thing we have and all the passion that was put into this thread would be way better spent at the end of U41 when all the opinions would be more clear and easier to prove which would also make them potentially more impactfull.

30k stam, 110% crit dmg, Major Berserk, 16k pen, 6k weapon dmg, 40% crit chance, and Essence thief. Good enough of a full dmg build for u?

A DK with Zaan/mDW/Vate parsing and CCing me off cooldown means nothing? Do you understand how high 8k DPS is? It’s hard to explain to you when you don’t look at CMX lol.

That is not the answer to my question.

I perfectly understand how high 8k DPS is in PvP. I also perfectly understand how big differene there is between 8k DPS made by person who is actively trying to kill You and a person who is just parsing You like a dummy and cmx alone is not saying much about which type of fight it was.

Xzysts

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Xzysts wrote: »

Insightful, but what are your thoughts and recommended change? Truly, I am interested in this conversation... In essence Sorc is relying on the ability to remain vigilant in spamming its shield. The thought of it is to be proactive vs reactive towards the dmg.

Completely remove the heal, full duration 15k shields that activate relevant passives are fine on their own. Staple a double bar major crit chance buff to a core class skill like Crystal or whatever, like what they did with NB cloak (lol). Now Sorcs have a free bar slot to put a burst heal like Vibrant Shroud, or start stacking Resto Healing Ward again (a properly balanced healy shield), or slot a HoT skill like Vigor, and so on. Their power ceiling wouldn't really drop all that much, but the proactive and reactive components of their kit would be better in line with the rest of the game.

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Xzysts wrote: »

Insightful, but what are your thoughts and recommended change? Truly, I am interested in this conversation... In essence Sorc is relying on the ability to remain vigilant in spamming its shield. The thought of it is to be proactive vs reactive towards the dmg.

Completely remove the heal, full duration 15k shields that activate relevant passives are fine on their own. Staple a double bar major crit chance buff to a core class skill like Crystal or whatever, like what they did with NB cloak (lol). Now Sorcs have a free bar slot to put a burst heal like Vibrant Shroud, or start stacking Resto Healing Ward again (a properly balanced healy shield), or slot a HoT skill like Vigor, and so on. Their power ceiling wouldn't really drop all that much, but the proactive and reactive components of their kit would be better in line with the rest of the game.

Well said. I’ve wondered for a long time why they don’t have a double bar crit buff. Maybe make it part of “crit surge” or bound armor? They definitely need a slot cleared up that’s for sure

xylena_lazarow

Galeriano2 wrote: »

I just asked a simple question which. If ward gives sorc egregious healing kit adventage than why You were able to keep better defense and offense while using Your defensive abilities less?

Not a simple question but if you want me to answer simply, roll dodge.

StaticWave

Galeriano2 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Galeriano2 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Galeriano2 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Here are 2 more examples of Hardened Ward being absolutely broken even with lower max mag. I got my friend to hop on Warden and DK in a full pressure build. I was in Malubeth/Rally/Wretched/SSC with 35.6k HP and VAMP 2. Here are the results of the DPS test:

Warden DPS and my healing:






DK DPS and my healing:






In both tests, Hardened Ward scaled with max HP instead, and at 35.6k HP and VAMP 2, I was able to tank up to 8.4k DPS for a sustained 2 minute fight. Keep in mind, this is just with Ward, Vigor, and Surge. I wasn't weaving Blood Magic healing, dodge rolling, or using Streak.

So as I've stated earlier in this thread, pressure builds CANNOT kill a Sorc anymore. The only chance of killing a Sorc is with perfectly timed burst to 100-0 them. You cannot do that vs a good player. If the counter play is so difficult to pull off, then is it really counter play?

Those are still pure duels and the thing is magsorc was capable to survive lots of pressure in a staged duel even before U41. Ward change didn't suddenly turn magsorc overnight from dying to a sneeze to surviving 7k DPS. Screenshots above show that sorc just joined the club of setups being able to completly turtle up in bergama. That alone doesn't make it top PvP class for U41 and doesn't prove it is top PvP class.

No matter how many duel screenshots You will provide it really won't matter in determining wheter magsorc is or isn't as strong as You suggest in entirety of PvP.

And if you think any class other than Sorc in a full damage build can sit and face tank a DK with Zaan, mDW, Vate, without cleansing anything, and not break a sweat, then you are deeply in denial.

Why don’t you prove that to me if you want to defend this ability so much? If you’re on PC NA, please pick a time, go to stormhaven on other classes in a full dmg build, and tank 8.4k dps for me. I’ll have all my friends duel you.

StaticWave wrote: »

Galeriano2 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Here are 2 more examples of Hardened Ward being absolutely broken even with lower max mag. I got my friend to hop on Warden and DK in a full pressure build. I was in Malubeth/Rally/Wretched/SSC with 35.6k HP and VAMP 2. Here are the results of the DPS test:

Warden DPS and my healing:






DK DPS and my healing:






In both tests, Hardened Ward scaled with max HP instead, and at 35.6k HP and VAMP 2, I was able to tank up to 8.4k DPS for a sustained 2 minute fight. Keep in mind, this is just with Ward, Vigor, and Surge. I wasn't weaving Blood Magic healing, dodge rolling, or using Streak.

So as I've stated earlier in this thread, pressure builds CANNOT kill a Sorc anymore. The only chance of killing a Sorc is with perfectly timed burst to 100-0 them. You cannot do that vs a good player. If the counter play is so difficult to pull off, then is it really counter play?

Those are still pure duels and the thing is magsorc was capable to survive lots of pressure in a staged duel even before U41. Ward change didn't suddenly turn magsorc overnight from dying to a sneeze to surviving 7k DPS. Screenshots above show that sorc just joined the club of setups being able to completly turtle up in bergama. That alone doesn't make it top PvP class for U41 and doesn't prove it is top PvP class.

No matter how many duel screenshots You will provide it really won't matter in determining wheter magsorc is or isn't as strong as You suggest in entirety of PvP.

No magsorc or any class could survive 8k dps last patch in a full dmg build. I duel and test DPS more than anyone here so you can’t fool me with lies lol.

We literally have a dueling guild that host dueling tournaments in no rules and nobody there could tank 8k dps in a full dmg build either.

So you can accept that Sorc is currently overperforming, or you can deny it and the class stays broken for several patches. It doesnt hurt me at all. I only benefit from this, but i’m still trying to be objective.

First of all what is a full damage build, because wearing malubeth and saying about full dmg build sounds wierd to me. Could I make 50k HP warden with malubeth, rallying cry and high resistances and claim I am running in full dmg build? Because if yes than surviving 8k DPS wouldn't be an issue in a "full dmg build".

Second thing is we don't know how these duels linked by You were actually looking. 8k DPS means nothing without context. Like I don't know wheter enemies were just parsing You like a dummy without burst windows combined with stuns, interrupts and trying to weaken Your sustain and defense from ice staff HA or were they actually trying. Pure 8k DPS claim doesn't say much.

Thirdly it's getting tiresome to continously point out that You are putting words into my mouth that I didn't said. I am not defending a hardened ward neither I am saying that magsorc is or isn't broken atm. All I am saying that I still havn't seen a magsorcs overtaking PvP and demolishing everyone which should happen if I was to completly belive this thread.

I appreciate that You have so much faith in me to say quote "you can accept that Sorc is currently overperforming, or you can deny it and the class stays broken for several patches" but I really don't think devs are relying on my opinions so much to balance the game purely around them. Sometimes most objective thing to do is to wait and see how things develop instead of relying on subjective thought of being objective.

We will not see any changes until U42 anyway due to ZoS's policy of dealing with combat changes so waiting is only thing we have and all the passion that was put into this thread would be way better spent at the end of U41 when all the opinions would be more clear and easier to prove which would also make them potentially more impactfull.

30k stam, 110% crit dmg, Major Berserk, 16k pen, 6k weapon dmg, 40% crit chance, and Essence thief. Good enough of a full dmg build for u?

A DK with Zaan/mDW/Vate parsing and CCing me off cooldown means nothing? Do you understand how high 8k DPS is? It’s hard to explain to you when you don’t look at CMX lol.

That is not the answer to my question.

I perfectly understand how high 8k DPS is in PvP. I also perfectly understand how big differene there is between 8k DPS made by person who is actively trying to kill You and a person who is just parsing You like a dummy and cmx alone is not saying much about which type of fight it was.

You clearly don't understand how high 8k DPS is in PvP if you say that lol. Parsing someone with CC off cooldown is actively trying to kill you. I don't care how you define it.

In a typical fight where 2 players are trading, a high DPS fight is usually around 4k-5k DPS, with 5k DPS being on the really high end. In the same build, that player can reach 6-7k DPS if he's not being attacked.

The point is, it doesn't matter lol. If you can't survive 5k DPS, then you can't survive 6-7k DPS.

StaticWave

Galeriano2 wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Galeriano2 wrote: »

CMX You posted and commentary to it actually suggest that magsorc is not that great.

My Arc had to use Impervious Ward, Vigor, and Blood Craze to stay healed. 3 buttons.

The Sorc only had to use Hardened Ward, and did it against higher incoming damage. These Sorcs I'm fighting aren't using dots so they're not getting any Surge procs when they go defensive, it's all Ward spam. 1 button.

Hardened Ward is stronger than Impervious Ward, Vigor, and a standard HoT combined.

Remember when people were crying for Impervious nerfs?

And? Was sorc You using ward outside of GCD?

The thing with one button argument is that it's not looking at the bigger picture like rest of the toolkit. Ward doesn't seem to be stronger than Imprevious ward, vigor and standard HoT combined if You were able to push that sorc heavily into ward spam while maintaining Your defense only periodically. It looks like You with using Your defenses only once in a while which allowed You to spend more time on dealing damage had better defense than sorc that was spamming ward for majority of a fight.

Here is a question. If that sorc according to Your claims was experienced and he had such an OP defensive ability in his kit than why You were able to push him so heavily into defense that as You Yourself said quote "The sorc was on his back foot the entire time with low chance to win"?

Okay now remove Vigor and standard HoT on that Arcanist, and let's see whether Impervious Ward or Hardened Ward are stronger?

Also, I tanked 8k DPS with Surge, Vigor, and Ward. Arcanist can maybe do it sure, but it definitely doesn't have Sorc damage. So which is worse? An Arcanist that's super tanky but has no damage unless in 3 procs, or a Sorc that's also super tanky but actually has damage without procs, and even more damage with procs. Pick your poison, and I hope you pick the obvious one.

StaticWave

Also, isn't it funny how even when you provide multiple screenshots of CMX to show the tanking capability of Ward, videos showing why Ward is overperforming, videos of well-known and strong Sorc mains who think the skill overperforms, and some people still go through mental gymnastics to come up with arguments to defend the skill, like:

1) "We need more data" - while data is plentiful and have been provided multiple times
2) "Other classes can do it too" - completely ignoring the massive GCD and damage stacking advantage on Sorc vs other classes
3) "I haven't seen that many sorcs" - totally anecdotal and has no meaningful substance. I don't see that many NBs either, but that doesn't mean they don't exist
4) "Duels don't count" - meanwhile most of the complaints about other classes are in fact also talking about 1v1s, but somehow Sorc gets a free pass lmao
5) "I still kill plenty of sorcs" - Bad players die regardless of class, and is a non factor in an argument about balance
6) "We need more time to see if Sorc does dominate" - go back to point #3.

It's either OP or it isn't. Anything in the middle is mental gymnastics and aren't valid arguments for combat balance.

xylena_lazarow

StaticWave wrote: »

Also, I tanked 8k DPS with Surge, Vigor, and Ward. Arcanist can maybe do it sure, but it definitely doesn't have Sorc damage. So which is worse? An Arcanist that's super tanky but has no damage

None of the super tanky Arcs have damage, procs or not. These are my resting unbuffed defensive stats on Arc.

Not much room for error on my part, but I don't mind if I get blown up every now and then, I'd rather do damage.

Meanwhile, shield Sorcs who screw up only need to mash 1 button Hardened and they'll survive twice the damage output that a "good" open world build typically does 1v1. No way in hell I'm able to do that with just Impervious. I'll die.

sharquez

My question is why die on this hill so hard when you know it's going to be adjusted to the Devs' whims anyway? Especially when you main the class? Take the buff and run until it inevitably gets nerfed. LOL
People are usually happier when their class performs well and being a party pooper isn't going to make many friends so why work so hard?
It's not going to be changed for months regardless, and the balance team is going with their vision and developer perspective over you and your's anyway.

xylena_lazarow

sharquez wrote: »

My question is why die on this hill

They have historically addressed obvious lone outliers that get a lot of player attention.

I'm interested to see how this develops, it's been a while since a class skill was this screwed in PvP.

Sure I can abuse it, but I'll still have to go against other players also abusing it.

moo_2021

So what are the counters we can use now? oblivion damage? but it only works against tanky sorcs not max mag builds.

Jsmalls

@StaticWave

So I talked to Felon about these duels, he said the ones you listed were straight DPS parses and not a real fight so I don't think there is anything TOO insane there, going full defensive in a fight isn't an issue. Also id like to clarify this was done with a ward scaling off of 36k~ health like you said... Which is not a strong ward, I wish you would have listed the values for the ward but with the heal being 3-5k (with really high crit healing AND major vitality) and I imagine a 9.5k ward with major Vitality (from monster set) maybe that's a 10.5k ward (you can confirm or I can mimic it to see).

But a 14-16k "heal" is not out of line and I think rather balanced... Its when it's reaching 20k for one button that it's a problem.

So what's this trying to prove? 36k health gives a lot of room for error and buffer time to heal. And ward at those numbers isn't out of line. Vigor and crit surge was 30% of your healing so it couldn't be done without those.

At the end of the day I'm not saying ward is balanced (at the upper ranges) because it isn't. But what you showed is not an overperforming ward at all. Felon also said you had duels where it was a real fight, you were putting up 3.5k~ DPS to his 7.5k~ at the time. He said you guys stalemated. Assuming you were using the same setup as above you'd have had blood magic, crit surge, vigor, malubeth, and a mediocre version of ward. So far from "just using ward" and not an accurate representation of what ward is able to absorb.

I'm not involved in the dueling community so I'm not going to pretend I know every stat about it. But the test you put up is no different than U40 Ward (about 15k ward size versus 11k + 4k heal) and seems like an exaggeration of what ward is actually doing.

xylena_lazarow

moo_2021 wrote: »

So what are the counters we can use now? oblivion damage? but it only works against tanky sorcs not max mag builds.

There's plenty of defensive counterplay against Sorc offense, against their Ward spam defense you're pretty much waiting for them to make a mistake, which is gonna be a while because it's hard to make a mistake on spamming 1 button.

Eventually you might be able to bait them into overextending with their shield down, or grind them out of resources. Ranged interrupts, such as your own Crushing Shock, can be pretty annoying for Dark Exchange users. Slot Bastion. Not much you can do proactively though against a spammable 15k healy shield. Defiles and Oblivion too nerfed.

There's always zerging!