Hardened Ward heal making it to live is a mistake and needs to be changed

StaticWave

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Major_Mangle wrote: »

Iriidius wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Iriidius wrote: »

Major_Toughness wrote: »

Cyrodiil will die before U45 if no meaningful nerf to Hardened Ward is made.

Practically all of my friends quit because the only thing they like to do is solo/small-scale in Cyrodiil but playing Call of Duty against invincible magsorcs is no fun.

Hardened Ward just lost a third of its heal threw a nerf, another 2 of those nerfs and heal will be gone and it will be back to previous state before heal added and we know that magsorc was not a good class back then standing in the shadow of stamsorc and it needed a buff, so a balanced version of magsorc should be somewhere between big heal and no heal on shield which it is now.

Nah you’re wrong. Magsorc won’t be weak after all the buffs it just got. In fact it would be just as strong as other classes

Magsorc could simply drop Ward and build into spell damage for better tooltips. Their bars would look like this:

Front: Shocking Soul with Major Defile, Cfrag, Curse, Streak, Hurricane

Back: Surge, Dark Conversion, Vigor, Ele Sus, Vibrant Shroud

They could also just drop Ele Sus completely and slot Race Against Time there for 4s of Major Expedition, Minor Force, and snare/root immunity. Major Breach will be on Shocking Soul instead.

Magsorc will be just fine.

Magsorc with(out) shields was one of the worse classes almost as bad as templar/necro before hardened ward buff and the few other buffs are not enaugh to make magsorc good class without hardened ward.
10% maximum magicka/stamina is not much use if you do not stack it and have only 20k like other classes.
Seems like you also want every magsorc to drop Hardened Ward. It was a class defining skill and is already used by much less people than it used to but it should stay useable at all without a major disadvantage.
Vibrant Shroud is an AOE burst heal and not balanced for selfhealing, it costs more and heals less than any other class burst heal even with blood magic passive. Not much better than use dark deal and hope it does not get interrupted. Dark deal having a cast time to prevent permablocking does not make much sense if nb gets leeching strikes and necro gets expunge and modify without cast time and sorc is not good tank anyway. Dark deal without cast time would be better burst heal.
You could get major breach on spammable even before scribing with crushing weapon.
Should rather use wield soul as healing soul if you have bad burstheal like vibrant shroud. But actually sorcerer should also be viable without scribing skills. Otherwise we can also remove spammables or burst heals of other classes because they can use scribing.

Magsorc was nowhere near the bottom even before the hardened ward buff and claiming it was is objectively false. The class just had a much higher skill-cap than other playstyles which made it harder for the average player to succeed with it. That doesn´t mean it was in a bad spot. Hardened ward never needed a buff to begin with.

That's a bad spot when you're going up against classes that have more well rounded kits. Before the buff to shields a magsorc could barely if at all survive a meteor javelin combo where other classes could burst heal out of it. If you were doing 1vx it was advisable to go for the sorc early because they would likely be an easier kill.

I played long before the buff and had fun playing sorcerer but definitely while making sacrifices other classes didn't have to.

I wouldn't have called or bottom tier but you were definitely playing at a large disadvantage at times.

The damage is overall good but the mobility claim to fame is suspect at times and before the ward change, shroud, and scribing, burst healing was not in a good place. Which isn't bad all together but not fun depending on the class you're up against.

The heal and shield change were too much and better changes have been suggested but there was definitely an issue before ward change.

Nah he’s right.
If you ever fought a top tier sorc even before the ward buff you would know.

it just took more skill than just spamming one ability to defend. The skill ceiling for magsorc was just probably the highest of any of the classes and in the right hands it was never weak.

This is true however the point is that the same top tier sorc wasn't winning any tournaments because ultimately the kit couldn't stand up to other classes especially when skill levels was equal or near equal on the non sorc.

It wasn't that you couldn't do well on sorc. I did well before the patch, it's just that I had to make a lot of sacrifices that other classes didn't that limited my ability to compete

https://youtu.be/-FcsSHlvu3Y?si=fSBFG5zxvJFgFZML

You can see and hear here how a year ago sorc had issues even in the hands of a skilled main. He breaks down the why and what not. You can also easily see through the course of the videos from them on how sorc got better. So depending on what patch you're looking at I guess you could say sorc wasn't as bad but when this video was made there were definitely easy to spot issues.

Actually, the last tournament on PC NA before sorc ward got a heal was won by a magsorc lol.

Yep I was there watching it too. There was a NB, 2 DKs, 2 plars, a Warden, a bowsorc, and a magsorc. Magsorc won that tourney ( it was @MetallicMonk )

Magsorc was a high skill ceiling class and only really needed small buffs to be competitive. Now it’s just stronger than most specs lol.

StaticWave

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Major_Mangle wrote: »

Iriidius wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Iriidius wrote: »

Major_Toughness wrote: »

Cyrodiil will die before U45 if no meaningful nerf to Hardened Ward is made.

Practically all of my friends quit because the only thing they like to do is solo/small-scale in Cyrodiil but playing Call of Duty against invincible magsorcs is no fun.

Hardened Ward just lost a third of its heal threw a nerf, another 2 of those nerfs and heal will be gone and it will be back to previous state before heal added and we know that magsorc was not a good class back then standing in the shadow of stamsorc and it needed a buff, so a balanced version of magsorc should be somewhere between big heal and no heal on shield which it is now.

Nah you’re wrong. Magsorc won’t be weak after all the buffs it just got. In fact it would be just as strong as other classes

Magsorc could simply drop Ward and build into spell damage for better tooltips. Their bars would look like this:

Front: Shocking Soul with Major Defile, Cfrag, Curse, Streak, Hurricane

Back: Surge, Dark Conversion, Vigor, Ele Sus, Vibrant Shroud

They could also just drop Ele Sus completely and slot Race Against Time there for 4s of Major Expedition, Minor Force, and snare/root immunity. Major Breach will be on Shocking Soul instead.

Magsorc will be just fine.

Magsorc with(out) shields was one of the worse classes almost as bad as templar/necro before hardened ward buff and the few other buffs are not enaugh to make magsorc good class without hardened ward.
10% maximum magicka/stamina is not much use if you do not stack it and have only 20k like other classes.
Seems like you also want every magsorc to drop Hardened Ward. It was a class defining skill and is already used by much less people than it used to but it should stay useable at all without a major disadvantage.
Vibrant Shroud is an AOE burst heal and not balanced for selfhealing, it costs more and heals less than any other class burst heal even with blood magic passive. Not much better than use dark deal and hope it does not get interrupted. Dark deal having a cast time to prevent permablocking does not make much sense if nb gets leeching strikes and necro gets expunge and modify without cast time and sorc is not good tank anyway. Dark deal without cast time would be better burst heal.
You could get major breach on spammable even before scribing with crushing weapon.
Should rather use wield soul as healing soul if you have bad burstheal like vibrant shroud. But actually sorcerer should also be viable without scribing skills. Otherwise we can also remove spammables or burst heals of other classes because they can use scribing.

Magsorc was nowhere near the bottom even before the hardened ward buff and claiming it was is objectively false. The class just had a much higher skill-cap than other playstyles which made it harder for the average player to succeed with it. That doesn´t mean it was in a bad spot. Hardened ward never needed a buff to begin with.

That's a bad spot when you're going up against classes that have more well rounded kits. Before the buff to shields a magsorc could barely if at all survive a meteor javelin combo where other classes could burst heal out of it. If you were doing 1vx it was advisable to go for the sorc early because they would likely be an easier kill.

I played long before the buff and had fun playing sorcerer but definitely while making sacrifices other classes didn't have to.

I wouldn't have called or bottom tier but you were definitely playing at a large disadvantage at times.

The damage is overall good but the mobility claim to fame is suspect at times and before the ward change, shroud, and scribing, burst healing was not in a good place. Which isn't bad all together but not fun depending on the class you're up against.

The heal and shield change were too much and better changes have been suggested but there was definitely an issue before ward change.

Nah he’s right.
If you ever fought a top tier sorc even before the ward buff you would know.

it just took more skill than just spamming one ability to defend. The skill ceiling for magsorc was just probably the highest of any of the classes and in the right hands it was never weak.

This is true however the point is that the same top tier sorc wasn't winning any tournaments because ultimately the kit couldn't stand up to other classes especially when skill levels was equal or near equal on the non sorc.

It wasn't that you couldn't do well on sorc. I did well before the patch, it's just that I had to make a lot of sacrifices that other classes didn't that limited my ability to compete

https://youtu.be/-FcsSHlvu3Y?si=fSBFG5zxvJFgFZML

You can see and hear here how a year ago sorc had issues even in the hands of a skilled main. He breaks down the why and what not. You can also easily see through the course of the videos from them on how sorc got better. So depending on what patch you're looking at I guess you could say sorc wasn't as bad but when this video was made there were definitely easy to spot issues.

To be fair, if a class goes from only having a couple skill bans to being completely banned from a tourney, then don’t you think it’s a bit too much?

Bushido2513

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Major_Mangle wrote: »

Iriidius wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Iriidius wrote: »

Major_Toughness wrote: »

Cyrodiil will die before U45 if no meaningful nerf to Hardened Ward is made.

Practically all of my friends quit because the only thing they like to do is solo/small-scale in Cyrodiil but playing Call of Duty against invincible magsorcs is no fun.

Hardened Ward just lost a third of its heal threw a nerf, another 2 of those nerfs and heal will be gone and it will be back to previous state before heal added and we know that magsorc was not a good class back then standing in the shadow of stamsorc and it needed a buff, so a balanced version of magsorc should be somewhere between big heal and no heal on shield which it is now.

Nah you’re wrong. Magsorc won’t be weak after all the buffs it just got. In fact it would be just as strong as other classes

Magsorc could simply drop Ward and build into spell damage for better tooltips. Their bars would look like this:

Front: Shocking Soul with Major Defile, Cfrag, Curse, Streak, Hurricane

Back: Surge, Dark Conversion, Vigor, Ele Sus, Vibrant Shroud

They could also just drop Ele Sus completely and slot Race Against Time there for 4s of Major Expedition, Minor Force, and snare/root immunity. Major Breach will be on Shocking Soul instead.

Magsorc will be just fine.

Magsorc with(out) shields was one of the worse classes almost as bad as templar/necro before hardened ward buff and the few other buffs are not enaugh to make magsorc good class without hardened ward.
10% maximum magicka/stamina is not much use if you do not stack it and have only 20k like other classes.
Seems like you also want every magsorc to drop Hardened Ward. It was a class defining skill and is already used by much less people than it used to but it should stay useable at all without a major disadvantage.
Vibrant Shroud is an AOE burst heal and not balanced for selfhealing, it costs more and heals less than any other class burst heal even with blood magic passive. Not much better than use dark deal and hope it does not get interrupted. Dark deal having a cast time to prevent permablocking does not make much sense if nb gets leeching strikes and necro gets expunge and modify without cast time and sorc is not good tank anyway. Dark deal without cast time would be better burst heal.
You could get major breach on spammable even before scribing with crushing weapon.
Should rather use wield soul as healing soul if you have bad burstheal like vibrant shroud. But actually sorcerer should also be viable without scribing skills. Otherwise we can also remove spammables or burst heals of other classes because they can use scribing.

Magsorc was nowhere near the bottom even before the hardened ward buff and claiming it was is objectively false. The class just had a much higher skill-cap than other playstyles which made it harder for the average player to succeed with it. That doesn´t mean it was in a bad spot. Hardened ward never needed a buff to begin with.

That's a bad spot when you're going up against classes that have more well rounded kits. Before the buff to shields a magsorc could barely if at all survive a meteor javelin combo where other classes could burst heal out of it. If you were doing 1vx it was advisable to go for the sorc early because they would likely be an easier kill.

I played long before the buff and had fun playing sorcerer but definitely while making sacrifices other classes didn't have to.

I wouldn't have called or bottom tier but you were definitely playing at a large disadvantage at times.

The damage is overall good but the mobility claim to fame is suspect at times and before the ward change, shroud, and scribing, burst healing was not in a good place. Which isn't bad all together but not fun depending on the class you're up against.

The heal and shield change were too much and better changes have been suggested but there was definitely an issue before ward change.

Nah he’s right.
If you ever fought a top tier sorc even before the ward buff you would know.

it just took more skill than just spamming one ability to defend. The skill ceiling for magsorc was just probably the highest of any of the classes and in the right hands it was never weak.

This is true however the point is that the same top tier sorc wasn't winning any tournaments because ultimately the kit couldn't stand up to other classes especially when skill levels was equal or near equal on the non sorc.

It wasn't that you couldn't do well on sorc. I did well before the patch, it's just that I had to make a lot of sacrifices that other classes didn't that limited my ability to compete

https://youtu.be/-FcsSHlvu3Y?si=fSBFG5zxvJFgFZML

You can see and hear here how a year ago sorc had issues even in the hands of a skilled main. He breaks down the why and what not. You can also easily see through the course of the videos from them on how sorc got better. So depending on what patch you're looking at I guess you could say sorc wasn't as bad but when this video was made there were definitely easy to spot issues.

Actually, the last tournament on PC NA before sorc ward got a heal was won by a magsorc lol.

Tournaments are terrible to try to judge by unfortunately due to variations in who is on that platform, who enters, what rules are made up, etc.

A mag sorc could definitely win with certain restrictions in play but that's not going to indicate how well magsorc was doing overall in pvp at the time.

Alchimiste1

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Major_Mangle wrote: »

Iriidius wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Iriidius wrote: »

Major_Toughness wrote: »

Cyrodiil will die before U45 if no meaningful nerf to Hardened Ward is made.

Practically all of my friends quit because the only thing they like to do is solo/small-scale in Cyrodiil but playing Call of Duty against invincible magsorcs is no fun.

Hardened Ward just lost a third of its heal threw a nerf, another 2 of those nerfs and heal will be gone and it will be back to previous state before heal added and we know that magsorc was not a good class back then standing in the shadow of stamsorc and it needed a buff, so a balanced version of magsorc should be somewhere between big heal and no heal on shield which it is now.

Nah you’re wrong. Magsorc won’t be weak after all the buffs it just got. In fact it would be just as strong as other classes

Magsorc could simply drop Ward and build into spell damage for better tooltips. Their bars would look like this:

Front: Shocking Soul with Major Defile, Cfrag, Curse, Streak, Hurricane

Back: Surge, Dark Conversion, Vigor, Ele Sus, Vibrant Shroud

They could also just drop Ele Sus completely and slot Race Against Time there for 4s of Major Expedition, Minor Force, and snare/root immunity. Major Breach will be on Shocking Soul instead.

Magsorc will be just fine.

Magsorc with(out) shields was one of the worse classes almost as bad as templar/necro before hardened ward buff and the few other buffs are not enaugh to make magsorc good class without hardened ward.
10% maximum magicka/stamina is not much use if you do not stack it and have only 20k like other classes.
Seems like you also want every magsorc to drop Hardened Ward. It was a class defining skill and is already used by much less people than it used to but it should stay useable at all without a major disadvantage.
Vibrant Shroud is an AOE burst heal and not balanced for selfhealing, it costs more and heals less than any other class burst heal even with blood magic passive. Not much better than use dark deal and hope it does not get interrupted. Dark deal having a cast time to prevent permablocking does not make much sense if nb gets leeching strikes and necro gets expunge and modify without cast time and sorc is not good tank anyway. Dark deal without cast time would be better burst heal.
You could get major breach on spammable even before scribing with crushing weapon.
Should rather use wield soul as healing soul if you have bad burstheal like vibrant shroud. But actually sorcerer should also be viable without scribing skills. Otherwise we can also remove spammables or burst heals of other classes because they can use scribing.

Magsorc was nowhere near the bottom even before the hardened ward buff and claiming it was is objectively false. The class just had a much higher skill-cap than other playstyles which made it harder for the average player to succeed with it. That doesn´t mean it was in a bad spot. Hardened ward never needed a buff to begin with.

That's a bad spot when you're going up against classes that have more well rounded kits. Before the buff to shields a magsorc could barely if at all survive a meteor javelin combo where other classes could burst heal out of it. If you were doing 1vx it was advisable to go for the sorc early because they would likely be an easier kill.

I played long before the buff and had fun playing sorcerer but definitely while making sacrifices other classes didn't have to.

I wouldn't have called or bottom tier but you were definitely playing at a large disadvantage at times.

The damage is overall good but the mobility claim to fame is suspect at times and before the ward change, shroud, and scribing, burst healing was not in a good place. Which isn't bad all together but not fun depending on the class you're up against.

The heal and shield change were too much and better changes have been suggested but there was definitely an issue before ward change.

Nah he’s right.
If you ever fought a top tier sorc even before the ward buff you would know.

it just took more skill than just spamming one ability to defend. The skill ceiling for magsorc was just probably the highest of any of the classes and in the right hands it was never weak.

This is true however the point is that the same top tier sorc wasn't winning any tournaments because ultimately the kit couldn't stand up to other classes especially when skill levels was equal or near equal on the non sorc.

It wasn't that you couldn't do well on sorc. I did well before the patch, it's just that I had to make a lot of sacrifices that other classes didn't that limited my ability to compete

https://youtu.be/-FcsSHlvu3Y?si=fSBFG5zxvJFgFZML

You can see and hear here how a year ago sorc had issues even in the hands of a skilled main. He breaks down the why and what not. You can also easily see through the course of the videos from them on how sorc got better. So depending on what patch you're looking at I guess you could say sorc wasn't as bad but when this video was made there were definitely easy to spot issues.

Actually, the last tournament on PC NA before sorc ward got a heal was won by a magsorc lol.

Tournaments are terrible to try to judge by unfortunately due to variations in who is on that platform, who enters, what rules are made up, etc.

A mag sorc could definitely win with certain restrictions in play but that's not going to indicate how well magsorc was doing overall in pvp at the time.

you are the one that brought up tournaments. I was only correcting you saying magsorcs weren't winning tournaments.

the only thing I can tell you was that it was a very competitive tournament.

StaticWave

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Major_Mangle wrote: »

Iriidius wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Iriidius wrote: »

Major_Toughness wrote: »

Cyrodiil will die before U45 if no meaningful nerf to Hardened Ward is made.

Practically all of my friends quit because the only thing they like to do is solo/small-scale in Cyrodiil but playing Call of Duty against invincible magsorcs is no fun.

Hardened Ward just lost a third of its heal threw a nerf, another 2 of those nerfs and heal will be gone and it will be back to previous state before heal added and we know that magsorc was not a good class back then standing in the shadow of stamsorc and it needed a buff, so a balanced version of magsorc should be somewhere between big heal and no heal on shield which it is now.

Nah you’re wrong. Magsorc won’t be weak after all the buffs it just got. In fact it would be just as strong as other classes

Magsorc could simply drop Ward and build into spell damage for better tooltips. Their bars would look like this:

Front: Shocking Soul with Major Defile, Cfrag, Curse, Streak, Hurricane

Back: Surge, Dark Conversion, Vigor, Ele Sus, Vibrant Shroud

They could also just drop Ele Sus completely and slot Race Against Time there for 4s of Major Expedition, Minor Force, and snare/root immunity. Major Breach will be on Shocking Soul instead.

Magsorc will be just fine.

Magsorc with(out) shields was one of the worse classes almost as bad as templar/necro before hardened ward buff and the few other buffs are not enaugh to make magsorc good class without hardened ward.
10% maximum magicka/stamina is not much use if you do not stack it and have only 20k like other classes.
Seems like you also want every magsorc to drop Hardened Ward. It was a class defining skill and is already used by much less people than it used to but it should stay useable at all without a major disadvantage.
Vibrant Shroud is an AOE burst heal and not balanced for selfhealing, it costs more and heals less than any other class burst heal even with blood magic passive. Not much better than use dark deal and hope it does not get interrupted. Dark deal having a cast time to prevent permablocking does not make much sense if nb gets leeching strikes and necro gets expunge and modify without cast time and sorc is not good tank anyway. Dark deal without cast time would be better burst heal.
You could get major breach on spammable even before scribing with crushing weapon.
Should rather use wield soul as healing soul if you have bad burstheal like vibrant shroud. But actually sorcerer should also be viable without scribing skills. Otherwise we can also remove spammables or burst heals of other classes because they can use scribing.

Magsorc was nowhere near the bottom even before the hardened ward buff and claiming it was is objectively false. The class just had a much higher skill-cap than other playstyles which made it harder for the average player to succeed with it. That doesn´t mean it was in a bad spot. Hardened ward never needed a buff to begin with.

That's a bad spot when you're going up against classes that have more well rounded kits. Before the buff to shields a magsorc could barely if at all survive a meteor javelin combo where other classes could burst heal out of it. If you were doing 1vx it was advisable to go for the sorc early because they would likely be an easier kill.

I played long before the buff and had fun playing sorcerer but definitely while making sacrifices other classes didn't have to.

I wouldn't have called or bottom tier but you were definitely playing at a large disadvantage at times.

The damage is overall good but the mobility claim to fame is suspect at times and before the ward change, shroud, and scribing, burst healing was not in a good place. Which isn't bad all together but not fun depending on the class you're up against.

The heal and shield change were too much and better changes have been suggested but there was definitely an issue before ward change.

Nah he’s right.
If you ever fought a top tier sorc even before the ward buff you would know.

it just took more skill than just spamming one ability to defend. The skill ceiling for magsorc was just probably the highest of any of the classes and in the right hands it was never weak.

This is true however the point is that the same top tier sorc wasn't winning any tournaments because ultimately the kit couldn't stand up to other classes especially when skill levels was equal or near equal on the non sorc.

It wasn't that you couldn't do well on sorc. I did well before the patch, it's just that I had to make a lot of sacrifices that other classes didn't that limited my ability to compete

https://youtu.be/-FcsSHlvu3Y?si=fSBFG5zxvJFgFZML

You can see and hear here how a year ago sorc had issues even in the hands of a skilled main. He breaks down the why and what not. You can also easily see through the course of the videos from them on how sorc got better. So depending on what patch you're looking at I guess you could say sorc wasn't as bad but when this video was made there were definitely easy to spot issues.

Actually, the last tournament on PC NA before sorc ward got a heal was won by a magsorc lol.

Tournaments are terrible to try to judge by unfortunately due to variations in who is on that platform, who enters, what rules are made up, etc.

A mag sorc could definitely win with certain restrictions in play but that's not going to indicate how well magsorc was doing overall in pvp at the time.

you are the one that brought up tournaments. I was only correcting you saying magsorcs weren't winning tournaments.

the only thing I can tell you was that it was a very competitive tournament.

That tourney had some of the best duelers in the game participating and magsorc came out on top. That should speak enough about magsorc's placement in an organized and controlled environment.

Turtle_Bot

StaticWave wrote: »

That tourney had some of the best duelers in the game participating and magsorc came out on top. That should speak enough about magsorc's placement in an organized and controlled environment.

What I've gathered from those dueling tournament results is the following:

The ceiling for sorc pre-ward buff was on par with the ceiling for other classes.

However, what I do know from personal experience on sorc out in open world PvP is that pre-ward sorc was not up to par with the other classes, especially the floor.

That does not mean I think sorc needed hardened ward specifically, but it does mean that sorc before ward buff did need something (which to me was major prophecy/savagery, hybridization of BA/morphs to fit roles instead of max resources, a tidy up/update of passives to be more modern, standardize lightning form/morphs to reflect the new melee combat standards, and some sort of reliable self healing).

What we got was tidy up/update of some passives (not all of the required ones), a heal in shroud (or scribing) and ward. I would gladly trade ward for finishing the updates to the passives, proper hybridization of BA/morphs, standardization of lightning form to reflect modern melee combat standards, and in class access to major prophecy/savagery.

Something I am curious about though, is just how the duel TOs reached their conclusion of needing to ban sorc entirely from tourneys.

We all know ward is the main issue when it comes to magsorc and banning that ability (which removes the incentive to build for max mag entirely) leaves sorc in a much closer to balanced spot, i.e. much closer to the other classes. I remain somewhat skeptical that banning sorc entirely needed to happen, especially when they could simply say no ward (and no heal soul if that morph of wield soul really needed banning too).

Did it come down to "no ward = useless sorc, but ward = OP sorc"? Was it something else? There's been zero insight/reasons given anywhere that I could find, just statements that "sorc got banned from duel tournaments for being OP".

P.s. if someone actually has proper insight into why the whole class got banned beyond just "believe me, I am top tier duelist", or "they banned it, so therefore proof it's OP", I am all ears and would love to learn more. Feel free to share just what was making wardless sorc so overtuned that simply banning ward was not enough to allow it to participate in duel tournaments.

Bushido2513

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Major_Mangle wrote: »

Iriidius wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Iriidius wrote: »

Major_Toughness wrote: »

Cyrodiil will die before U45 if no meaningful nerf to Hardened Ward is made.

Practically all of my friends quit because the only thing they like to do is solo/small-scale in Cyrodiil but playing Call of Duty against invincible magsorcs is no fun.

Hardened Ward just lost a third of its heal threw a nerf, another 2 of those nerfs and heal will be gone and it will be back to previous state before heal added and we know that magsorc was not a good class back then standing in the shadow of stamsorc and it needed a buff, so a balanced version of magsorc should be somewhere between big heal and no heal on shield which it is now.

Nah you’re wrong. Magsorc won’t be weak after all the buffs it just got. In fact it would be just as strong as other classes

Magsorc could simply drop Ward and build into spell damage for better tooltips. Their bars would look like this:

Front: Shocking Soul with Major Defile, Cfrag, Curse, Streak, Hurricane

Back: Surge, Dark Conversion, Vigor, Ele Sus, Vibrant Shroud

They could also just drop Ele Sus completely and slot Race Against Time there for 4s of Major Expedition, Minor Force, and snare/root immunity. Major Breach will be on Shocking Soul instead.

Magsorc will be just fine.

Magsorc with(out) shields was one of the worse classes almost as bad as templar/necro before hardened ward buff and the few other buffs are not enaugh to make magsorc good class without hardened ward.
10% maximum magicka/stamina is not much use if you do not stack it and have only 20k like other classes.
Seems like you also want every magsorc to drop Hardened Ward. It was a class defining skill and is already used by much less people than it used to but it should stay useable at all without a major disadvantage.
Vibrant Shroud is an AOE burst heal and not balanced for selfhealing, it costs more and heals less than any other class burst heal even with blood magic passive. Not much better than use dark deal and hope it does not get interrupted. Dark deal having a cast time to prevent permablocking does not make much sense if nb gets leeching strikes and necro gets expunge and modify without cast time and sorc is not good tank anyway. Dark deal without cast time would be better burst heal.
You could get major breach on spammable even before scribing with crushing weapon.
Should rather use wield soul as healing soul if you have bad burstheal like vibrant shroud. But actually sorcerer should also be viable without scribing skills. Otherwise we can also remove spammables or burst heals of other classes because they can use scribing.

Magsorc was nowhere near the bottom even before the hardened ward buff and claiming it was is objectively false. The class just had a much higher skill-cap than other playstyles which made it harder for the average player to succeed with it. That doesn´t mean it was in a bad spot. Hardened ward never needed a buff to begin with.

That's a bad spot when you're going up against classes that have more well rounded kits. Before the buff to shields a magsorc could barely if at all survive a meteor javelin combo where other classes could burst heal out of it. If you were doing 1vx it was advisable to go for the sorc early because they would likely be an easier kill.

I played long before the buff and had fun playing sorcerer but definitely while making sacrifices other classes didn't have to.

I wouldn't have called or bottom tier but you were definitely playing at a large disadvantage at times.

The damage is overall good but the mobility claim to fame is suspect at times and before the ward change, shroud, and scribing, burst healing was not in a good place. Which isn't bad all together but not fun depending on the class you're up against.

The heal and shield change were too much and better changes have been suggested but there was definitely an issue before ward change.

Nah he’s right.
If you ever fought a top tier sorc even before the ward buff you would know.

it just took more skill than just spamming one ability to defend. The skill ceiling for magsorc was just probably the highest of any of the classes and in the right hands it was never weak.

This is true however the point is that the same top tier sorc wasn't winning any tournaments because ultimately the kit couldn't stand up to other classes especially when skill levels was equal or near equal on the non sorc.

It wasn't that you couldn't do well on sorc. I did well before the patch, it's just that I had to make a lot of sacrifices that other classes didn't that limited my ability to compete

https://youtu.be/-FcsSHlvu3Y?si=fSBFG5zxvJFgFZML

You can see and hear here how a year ago sorc had issues even in the hands of a skilled main. He breaks down the why and what not. You can also easily see through the course of the videos from them on how sorc got better. So depending on what patch you're looking at I guess you could say sorc wasn't as bad but when this video was made there were definitely easy to spot issues.

Actually, the last tournament on PC NA before sorc ward got a heal was won by a magsorc lol.

Tournaments are terrible to try to judge by unfortunately due to variations in who is on that platform, who enters, what rules are made up, etc.

A mag sorc could definitely win with certain restrictions in play but that's not going to indicate how well magsorc was doing overall in pvp at the time.

you are the one that brought up tournaments. I was only correcting you saying magsorcs weren't winning tournaments.

the only thing I can tell you was that it was a very competitive tournament.

So that's my mistake. I should say that it's not that they can't win a tournament it's just that they didn't often win tournaments.

Also yes depending on rule set and who enters the tournament it's possible for a magsorc to win a tournament but without a standard ruleset to govern all tournaments a win here or there only says that with specific rules and entrants of various skill levels it's possible.

A better way to look at this event would be to put it across multiple tournaments around that time across platforms and see who was winning the most.

I should have clarified these things in my original statements and not assumed them to be general knowledge.

Bushido2513

StaticWave wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Major_Mangle wrote: »

Iriidius wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Iriidius wrote: »

Major_Toughness wrote: »

Cyrodiil will die before U45 if no meaningful nerf to Hardened Ward is made.

Practically all of my friends quit because the only thing they like to do is solo/small-scale in Cyrodiil but playing Call of Duty against invincible magsorcs is no fun.

Hardened Ward just lost a third of its heal threw a nerf, another 2 of those nerfs and heal will be gone and it will be back to previous state before heal added and we know that magsorc was not a good class back then standing in the shadow of stamsorc and it needed a buff, so a balanced version of magsorc should be somewhere between big heal and no heal on shield which it is now.

Nah you’re wrong. Magsorc won’t be weak after all the buffs it just got. In fact it would be just as strong as other classes

Magsorc could simply drop Ward and build into spell damage for better tooltips. Their bars would look like this:

Front: Shocking Soul with Major Defile, Cfrag, Curse, Streak, Hurricane

Back: Surge, Dark Conversion, Vigor, Ele Sus, Vibrant Shroud

They could also just drop Ele Sus completely and slot Race Against Time there for 4s of Major Expedition, Minor Force, and snare/root immunity. Major Breach will be on Shocking Soul instead.

Magsorc will be just fine.

Magsorc with(out) shields was one of the worse classes almost as bad as templar/necro before hardened ward buff and the few other buffs are not enaugh to make magsorc good class without hardened ward.
10% maximum magicka/stamina is not much use if you do not stack it and have only 20k like other classes.
Seems like you also want every magsorc to drop Hardened Ward. It was a class defining skill and is already used by much less people than it used to but it should stay useable at all without a major disadvantage.
Vibrant Shroud is an AOE burst heal and not balanced for selfhealing, it costs more and heals less than any other class burst heal even with blood magic passive. Not much better than use dark deal and hope it does not get interrupted. Dark deal having a cast time to prevent permablocking does not make much sense if nb gets leeching strikes and necro gets expunge and modify without cast time and sorc is not good tank anyway. Dark deal without cast time would be better burst heal.
You could get major breach on spammable even before scribing with crushing weapon.
Should rather use wield soul as healing soul if you have bad burstheal like vibrant shroud. But actually sorcerer should also be viable without scribing skills. Otherwise we can also remove spammables or burst heals of other classes because they can use scribing.

Magsorc was nowhere near the bottom even before the hardened ward buff and claiming it was is objectively false. The class just had a much higher skill-cap than other playstyles which made it harder for the average player to succeed with it. That doesn´t mean it was in a bad spot. Hardened ward never needed a buff to begin with.

That's a bad spot when you're going up against classes that have more well rounded kits. Before the buff to shields a magsorc could barely if at all survive a meteor javelin combo where other classes could burst heal out of it. If you were doing 1vx it was advisable to go for the sorc early because they would likely be an easier kill.

I played long before the buff and had fun playing sorcerer but definitely while making sacrifices other classes didn't have to.

I wouldn't have called or bottom tier but you were definitely playing at a large disadvantage at times.

The damage is overall good but the mobility claim to fame is suspect at times and before the ward change, shroud, and scribing, burst healing was not in a good place. Which isn't bad all together but not fun depending on the class you're up against.

The heal and shield change were too much and better changes have been suggested but there was definitely an issue before ward change.

Nah he’s right.
If you ever fought a top tier sorc even before the ward buff you would know.

it just took more skill than just spamming one ability to defend. The skill ceiling for magsorc was just probably the highest of any of the classes and in the right hands it was never weak.

This is true however the point is that the same top tier sorc wasn't winning any tournaments because ultimately the kit couldn't stand up to other classes especially when skill levels was equal or near equal on the non sorc.

It wasn't that you couldn't do well on sorc. I did well before the patch, it's just that I had to make a lot of sacrifices that other classes didn't that limited my ability to compete

https://youtu.be/-FcsSHlvu3Y?si=fSBFG5zxvJFgFZML

You can see and hear here how a year ago sorc had issues even in the hands of a skilled main. He breaks down the why and what not. You can also easily see through the course of the videos from them on how sorc got better. So depending on what patch you're looking at I guess you could say sorc wasn't as bad but when this video was made there were definitely easy to spot issues.

Actually, the last tournament on PC NA before sorc ward got a heal was won by a magsorc lol.

Tournaments are terrible to try to judge by unfortunately due to variations in who is on that platform, who enters, what rules are made up, etc.

A mag sorc could definitely win with certain restrictions in play but that's not going to indicate how well magsorc was doing overall in pvp at the time.

you are the one that brought up tournaments. I was only correcting you saying magsorcs weren't winning tournaments.

the only thing I can tell you was that it was a very competitive tournament.

That tourney had some of the best duelers in the game participating and magsorc came out on top. That should speak enough about magsorc's placement in an organized and controlled environment.

See my other comment about contextualizing this win. It would have more relevance if there were a trackable pattern to it.

Not saying that I dismiss the win at all, just saying magsorc winning tournaments wasn't at all a common thing and again when we say controlled, there's no one ruleset for tournaments just whatever the tournament runners feel is fair and that needs to be taken into account.

TechMaybeHic

Bushido2513 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Major_Mangle wrote: »

Iriidius wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Iriidius wrote: »

Major_Toughness wrote: »

Cyrodiil will die before U45 if no meaningful nerf to Hardened Ward is made.

Practically all of my friends quit because the only thing they like to do is solo/small-scale in Cyrodiil but playing Call of Duty against invincible magsorcs is no fun.

Hardened Ward just lost a third of its heal threw a nerf, another 2 of those nerfs and heal will be gone and it will be back to previous state before heal added and we know that magsorc was not a good class back then standing in the shadow of stamsorc and it needed a buff, so a balanced version of magsorc should be somewhere between big heal and no heal on shield which it is now.

Nah you’re wrong. Magsorc won’t be weak after all the buffs it just got. In fact it would be just as strong as other classes

Magsorc could simply drop Ward and build into spell damage for better tooltips. Their bars would look like this:

Front: Shocking Soul with Major Defile, Cfrag, Curse, Streak, Hurricane

Back: Surge, Dark Conversion, Vigor, Ele Sus, Vibrant Shroud

They could also just drop Ele Sus completely and slot Race Against Time there for 4s of Major Expedition, Minor Force, and snare/root immunity. Major Breach will be on Shocking Soul instead.

Magsorc will be just fine.

Magsorc with(out) shields was one of the worse classes almost as bad as templar/necro before hardened ward buff and the few other buffs are not enaugh to make magsorc good class without hardened ward.
10% maximum magicka/stamina is not much use if you do not stack it and have only 20k like other classes.
Seems like you also want every magsorc to drop Hardened Ward. It was a class defining skill and is already used by much less people than it used to but it should stay useable at all without a major disadvantage.
Vibrant Shroud is an AOE burst heal and not balanced for selfhealing, it costs more and heals less than any other class burst heal even with blood magic passive. Not much better than use dark deal and hope it does not get interrupted. Dark deal having a cast time to prevent permablocking does not make much sense if nb gets leeching strikes and necro gets expunge and modify without cast time and sorc is not good tank anyway. Dark deal without cast time would be better burst heal.
You could get major breach on spammable even before scribing with crushing weapon.
Should rather use wield soul as healing soul if you have bad burstheal like vibrant shroud. But actually sorcerer should also be viable without scribing skills. Otherwise we can also remove spammables or burst heals of other classes because they can use scribing.

Magsorc was nowhere near the bottom even before the hardened ward buff and claiming it was is objectively false. The class just had a much higher skill-cap than other playstyles which made it harder for the average player to succeed with it. That doesn´t mean it was in a bad spot. Hardened ward never needed a buff to begin with.

That's a bad spot when you're going up against classes that have more well rounded kits. Before the buff to shields a magsorc could barely if at all survive a meteor javelin combo where other classes could burst heal out of it. If you were doing 1vx it was advisable to go for the sorc early because they would likely be an easier kill.

I played long before the buff and had fun playing sorcerer but definitely while making sacrifices other classes didn't have to.

I wouldn't have called or bottom tier but you were definitely playing at a large disadvantage at times.

The damage is overall good but the mobility claim to fame is suspect at times and before the ward change, shroud, and scribing, burst healing was not in a good place. Which isn't bad all together but not fun depending on the class you're up against.

The heal and shield change were too much and better changes have been suggested but there was definitely an issue before ward change.

Nah he’s right.
If you ever fought a top tier sorc even before the ward buff you would know.

it just took more skill than just spamming one ability to defend. The skill ceiling for magsorc was just probably the highest of any of the classes and in the right hands it was never weak.

This is true however the point is that the same top tier sorc wasn't winning any tournaments because ultimately the kit couldn't stand up to other classes especially when skill levels was equal or near equal on the non sorc.

It wasn't that you couldn't do well on sorc. I did well before the patch, it's just that I had to make a lot of sacrifices that other classes didn't that limited my ability to compete

https://youtu.be/-FcsSHlvu3Y?si=fSBFG5zxvJFgFZML

You can see and hear here how a year ago sorc had issues even in the hands of a skilled main. He breaks down the why and what not. You can also easily see through the course of the videos from them on how sorc got better. So depending on what patch you're looking at I guess you could say sorc wasn't as bad but when this video was made there were definitely easy to spot issues.

Actually, the last tournament on PC NA before sorc ward got a heal was won by a magsorc lol.

Tournaments are terrible to try to judge by unfortunately due to variations in who is on that platform, who enters, what rules are made up, etc.

A mag sorc could definitely win with certain restrictions in play but that's not going to indicate how well magsorc was doing overall in pvp at the time.

you are the one that brought up tournaments. I was only correcting you saying magsorcs weren't winning tournaments.

the only thing I can tell you was that it was a very competitive tournament.

That tourney had some of the best duelers in the game participating and magsorc came out on top. That should speak enough about magsorc's placement in an organized and controlled environment.

See my other comment about contextualizing this win. It would have more relevance if there were a trackable pattern to it.

Not saying that I dismiss the win at all, just saying magsorc winning tournaments wasn't at all a common thing and again when we say controlled, there's no one ruleset for tournaments just whatever the tournament runners feel is fair and that needs to be taken into account.

So you're saying still that duel tournaments matter if they support your point, but irrelevant if they are counter to it. Think we get it

StaticWave

Bushido2513 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Major_Mangle wrote: »

Iriidius wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Iriidius wrote: »

Major_Toughness wrote: »

Cyrodiil will die before U45 if no meaningful nerf to Hardened Ward is made.

Practically all of my friends quit because the only thing they like to do is solo/small-scale in Cyrodiil but playing Call of Duty against invincible magsorcs is no fun.

Hardened Ward just lost a third of its heal threw a nerf, another 2 of those nerfs and heal will be gone and it will be back to previous state before heal added and we know that magsorc was not a good class back then standing in the shadow of stamsorc and it needed a buff, so a balanced version of magsorc should be somewhere between big heal and no heal on shield which it is now.

Nah you’re wrong. Magsorc won’t be weak after all the buffs it just got. In fact it would be just as strong as other classes

Magsorc could simply drop Ward and build into spell damage for better tooltips. Their bars would look like this:

Front: Shocking Soul with Major Defile, Cfrag, Curse, Streak, Hurricane

Back: Surge, Dark Conversion, Vigor, Ele Sus, Vibrant Shroud

They could also just drop Ele Sus completely and slot Race Against Time there for 4s of Major Expedition, Minor Force, and snare/root immunity. Major Breach will be on Shocking Soul instead.

Magsorc will be just fine.

Magsorc with(out) shields was one of the worse classes almost as bad as templar/necro before hardened ward buff and the few other buffs are not enaugh to make magsorc good class without hardened ward.
10% maximum magicka/stamina is not much use if you do not stack it and have only 20k like other classes.
Seems like you also want every magsorc to drop Hardened Ward. It was a class defining skill and is already used by much less people than it used to but it should stay useable at all without a major disadvantage.
Vibrant Shroud is an AOE burst heal and not balanced for selfhealing, it costs more and heals less than any other class burst heal even with blood magic passive. Not much better than use dark deal and hope it does not get interrupted. Dark deal having a cast time to prevent permablocking does not make much sense if nb gets leeching strikes and necro gets expunge and modify without cast time and sorc is not good tank anyway. Dark deal without cast time would be better burst heal.
You could get major breach on spammable even before scribing with crushing weapon.
Should rather use wield soul as healing soul if you have bad burstheal like vibrant shroud. But actually sorcerer should also be viable without scribing skills. Otherwise we can also remove spammables or burst heals of other classes because they can use scribing.

Magsorc was nowhere near the bottom even before the hardened ward buff and claiming it was is objectively false. The class just had a much higher skill-cap than other playstyles which made it harder for the average player to succeed with it. That doesn´t mean it was in a bad spot. Hardened ward never needed a buff to begin with.

That's a bad spot when you're going up against classes that have more well rounded kits. Before the buff to shields a magsorc could barely if at all survive a meteor javelin combo where other classes could burst heal out of it. If you were doing 1vx it was advisable to go for the sorc early because they would likely be an easier kill.

I played long before the buff and had fun playing sorcerer but definitely while making sacrifices other classes didn't have to.

I wouldn't have called or bottom tier but you were definitely playing at a large disadvantage at times.

The damage is overall good but the mobility claim to fame is suspect at times and before the ward change, shroud, and scribing, burst healing was not in a good place. Which isn't bad all together but not fun depending on the class you're up against.

The heal and shield change were too much and better changes have been suggested but there was definitely an issue before ward change.

Nah he’s right.
If you ever fought a top tier sorc even before the ward buff you would know.

it just took more skill than just spamming one ability to defend. The skill ceiling for magsorc was just probably the highest of any of the classes and in the right hands it was never weak.

This is true however the point is that the same top tier sorc wasn't winning any tournaments because ultimately the kit couldn't stand up to other classes especially when skill levels was equal or near equal on the non sorc.

It wasn't that you couldn't do well on sorc. I did well before the patch, it's just that I had to make a lot of sacrifices that other classes didn't that limited my ability to compete

https://youtu.be/-FcsSHlvu3Y?si=fSBFG5zxvJFgFZML

You can see and hear here how a year ago sorc had issues even in the hands of a skilled main. He breaks down the why and what not. You can also easily see through the course of the videos from them on how sorc got better. So depending on what patch you're looking at I guess you could say sorc wasn't as bad but when this video was made there were definitely easy to spot issues.

Actually, the last tournament on PC NA before sorc ward got a heal was won by a magsorc lol.

Tournaments are terrible to try to judge by unfortunately due to variations in who is on that platform, who enters, what rules are made up, etc.

A mag sorc could definitely win with certain restrictions in play but that's not going to indicate how well magsorc was doing overall in pvp at the time.

you are the one that brought up tournaments. I was only correcting you saying magsorcs weren't winning tournaments.

the only thing I can tell you was that it was a very competitive tournament.

That tourney had some of the best duelers in the game participating and magsorc came out on top. That should speak enough about magsorc's placement in an organized and controlled environment.

See my other comment about contextualizing this win. It would have more relevance if there were a trackable pattern to it.

Not saying that I dismiss the win at all, just saying magsorc winning tournaments wasn't at all a common thing and again when we say controlled, there's no one ruleset for tournaments just whatever the tournament runners feel is fair and that needs to be taken into account.

It was a tourney with some of the best duelers in NA region, using a ruleset with specific class skill bans to prevent them from over-performing, as well as universal skills and set bans to prevent over-performing builds.

Magsorc was very strong under this ruleset because they weren’t at a disadvantage. There were no proc sets or broken combos for them to deal with. Stalemating builds such as 40k resist and 40k HP were also banned, meaning they were actually one of the tankier classes in the tournament and could actually deal threatening damage.

So I’m not sure what you’re getting at here. If you specifically said “‘no rule” tournament, then I would agree. But any serious tournament is going to attempt to create a balanced environment for all classes, and the fact of the matter is magsorc is a dominant class under this type of tournament.

Bushido2513

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Major_Mangle wrote: »

Iriidius wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Iriidius wrote: »

Major_Toughness wrote: »

Cyrodiil will die before U45 if no meaningful nerf to Hardened Ward is made.

Practically all of my friends quit because the only thing they like to do is solo/small-scale in Cyrodiil but playing Call of Duty against invincible magsorcs is no fun.

Hardened Ward just lost a third of its heal threw a nerf, another 2 of those nerfs and heal will be gone and it will be back to previous state before heal added and we know that magsorc was not a good class back then standing in the shadow of stamsorc and it needed a buff, so a balanced version of magsorc should be somewhere between big heal and no heal on shield which it is now.

Nah you’re wrong. Magsorc won’t be weak after all the buffs it just got. In fact it would be just as strong as other classes

Magsorc could simply drop Ward and build into spell damage for better tooltips. Their bars would look like this:

Front: Shocking Soul with Major Defile, Cfrag, Curse, Streak, Hurricane

Back: Surge, Dark Conversion, Vigor, Ele Sus, Vibrant Shroud

They could also just drop Ele Sus completely and slot Race Against Time there for 4s of Major Expedition, Minor Force, and snare/root immunity. Major Breach will be on Shocking Soul instead.

Magsorc will be just fine.

Magsorc with(out) shields was one of the worse classes almost as bad as templar/necro before hardened ward buff and the few other buffs are not enaugh to make magsorc good class without hardened ward.
10% maximum magicka/stamina is not much use if you do not stack it and have only 20k like other classes.
Seems like you also want every magsorc to drop Hardened Ward. It was a class defining skill and is already used by much less people than it used to but it should stay useable at all without a major disadvantage.
Vibrant Shroud is an AOE burst heal and not balanced for selfhealing, it costs more and heals less than any other class burst heal even with blood magic passive. Not much better than use dark deal and hope it does not get interrupted. Dark deal having a cast time to prevent permablocking does not make much sense if nb gets leeching strikes and necro gets expunge and modify without cast time and sorc is not good tank anyway. Dark deal without cast time would be better burst heal.
You could get major breach on spammable even before scribing with crushing weapon.
Should rather use wield soul as healing soul if you have bad burstheal like vibrant shroud. But actually sorcerer should also be viable without scribing skills. Otherwise we can also remove spammables or burst heals of other classes because they can use scribing.

Magsorc was nowhere near the bottom even before the hardened ward buff and claiming it was is objectively false. The class just had a much higher skill-cap than other playstyles which made it harder for the average player to succeed with it. That doesn´t mean it was in a bad spot. Hardened ward never needed a buff to begin with.

That's a bad spot when you're going up against classes that have more well rounded kits. Before the buff to shields a magsorc could barely if at all survive a meteor javelin combo where other classes could burst heal out of it. If you were doing 1vx it was advisable to go for the sorc early because they would likely be an easier kill.

I played long before the buff and had fun playing sorcerer but definitely while making sacrifices other classes didn't have to.

I wouldn't have called or bottom tier but you were definitely playing at a large disadvantage at times.

The damage is overall good but the mobility claim to fame is suspect at times and before the ward change, shroud, and scribing, burst healing was not in a good place. Which isn't bad all together but not fun depending on the class you're up against.

The heal and shield change were too much and better changes have been suggested but there was definitely an issue before ward change.

Nah he’s right.
If you ever fought a top tier sorc even before the ward buff you would know.

it just took more skill than just spamming one ability to defend. The skill ceiling for magsorc was just probably the highest of any of the classes and in the right hands it was never weak.

This is true however the point is that the same top tier sorc wasn't winning any tournaments because ultimately the kit couldn't stand up to other classes especially when skill levels was equal or near equal on the non sorc.

It wasn't that you couldn't do well on sorc. I did well before the patch, it's just that I had to make a lot of sacrifices that other classes didn't that limited my ability to compete

https://youtu.be/-FcsSHlvu3Y?si=fSBFG5zxvJFgFZML

You can see and hear here how a year ago sorc had issues even in the hands of a skilled main. He breaks down the why and what not. You can also easily see through the course of the videos from them on how sorc got better. So depending on what patch you're looking at I guess you could say sorc wasn't as bad but when this video was made there were definitely easy to spot issues.

Actually, the last tournament on PC NA before sorc ward got a heal was won by a magsorc lol.

Tournaments are terrible to try to judge by unfortunately due to variations in who is on that platform, who enters, what rules are made up, etc.

A mag sorc could definitely win with certain restrictions in play but that's not going to indicate how well magsorc was doing overall in pvp at the time.

you are the one that brought up tournaments. I was only correcting you saying magsorcs weren't winning tournaments.

the only thing I can tell you was that it was a very competitive tournament.

That tourney had some of the best duelers in the game participating and magsorc came out on top. That should speak enough about magsorc's placement in an organized and controlled environment.

See my other comment about contextualizing this win. It would have more relevance if there were a trackable pattern to it.

Not saying that I dismiss the win at all, just saying magsorc winning tournaments wasn't at all a common thing and again when we say controlled, there's no one ruleset for tournaments just whatever the tournament runners feel is fair and that needs to be taken into account.

So you're saying still that duel tournaments matter if they support your point, but irrelevant if they are counter to it. Think we get it

When I spoke I spoke of a general consensus.

From the start I've always said it's about data and not one story here or there or one opinion here or there. That's why I clarified that I can't say magsorc never won a tournament just that at the time around the video I posted they weren't winning many tournaments.

I think if we're going to look at tournaments then it would have to be multiple and not just one. And yes it would be just as valid for someone to say let's look at the rules of those tournaments that were lost by magsorc and see if they contributed to the loss.

It's just something we can look at as we talk about this subject but I don't think there's going to be exactly clear answers or anything.

Aces-High-82

StaticWave wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Major_Mangle wrote: »

Iriidius wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Iriidius wrote: »

Major_Toughness wrote: »

Cyrodiil will die before U45 if no meaningful nerf to Hardened Ward is made.

Practically all of my friends quit because the only thing they like to do is solo/small-scale in Cyrodiil but playing Call of Duty against invincible magsorcs is no fun.

Hardened Ward just lost a third of its heal threw a nerf, another 2 of those nerfs and heal will be gone and it will be back to previous state before heal added and we know that magsorc was not a good class back then standing in the shadow of stamsorc and it needed a buff, so a balanced version of magsorc should be somewhere between big heal and no heal on shield which it is now.

Nah you’re wrong. Magsorc won’t be weak after all the buffs it just got. In fact it would be just as strong as other classes

Magsorc could simply drop Ward and build into spell damage for better tooltips. Their bars would look like this:

Front: Shocking Soul with Major Defile, Cfrag, Curse, Streak, Hurricane

Back: Surge, Dark Conversion, Vigor, Ele Sus, Vibrant Shroud

They could also just drop Ele Sus completely and slot Race Against Time there for 4s of Major Expedition, Minor Force, and snare/root immunity. Major Breach will be on Shocking Soul instead.

Magsorc will be just fine.

Magsorc with(out) shields was one of the worse classes almost as bad as templar/necro before hardened ward buff and the few other buffs are not enaugh to make magsorc good class without hardened ward.
10% maximum magicka/stamina is not much use if you do not stack it and have only 20k like other classes.
Seems like you also want every magsorc to drop Hardened Ward. It was a class defining skill and is already used by much less people than it used to but it should stay useable at all without a major disadvantage.
Vibrant Shroud is an AOE burst heal and not balanced for selfhealing, it costs more and heals less than any other class burst heal even with blood magic passive. Not much better than use dark deal and hope it does not get interrupted. Dark deal having a cast time to prevent permablocking does not make much sense if nb gets leeching strikes and necro gets expunge and modify without cast time and sorc is not good tank anyway. Dark deal without cast time would be better burst heal.
You could get major breach on spammable even before scribing with crushing weapon.
Should rather use wield soul as healing soul if you have bad burstheal like vibrant shroud. But actually sorcerer should also be viable without scribing skills. Otherwise we can also remove spammables or burst heals of other classes because they can use scribing.

Magsorc was nowhere near the bottom even before the hardened ward buff and claiming it was is objectively false. The class just had a much higher skill-cap than other playstyles which made it harder for the average player to succeed with it. That doesn´t mean it was in a bad spot. Hardened ward never needed a buff to begin with.

That's a bad spot when you're going up against classes that have more well rounded kits. Before the buff to shields a magsorc could barely if at all survive a meteor javelin combo where other classes could burst heal out of it. If you were doing 1vx it was advisable to go for the sorc early because they would likely be an easier kill.

I played long before the buff and had fun playing sorcerer but definitely while making sacrifices other classes didn't have to.

I wouldn't have called or bottom tier but you were definitely playing at a large disadvantage at times.

The damage is overall good but the mobility claim to fame is suspect at times and before the ward change, shroud, and scribing, burst healing was not in a good place. Which isn't bad all together but not fun depending on the class you're up against.

The heal and shield change were too much and better changes have been suggested but there was definitely an issue before ward change.

Nah he’s right.
If you ever fought a top tier sorc even before the ward buff you would know.

it just took more skill than just spamming one ability to defend. The skill ceiling for magsorc was just probably the highest of any of the classes and in the right hands it was never weak.

This is true however the point is that the same top tier sorc wasn't winning any tournaments because ultimately the kit couldn't stand up to other classes especially when skill levels was equal or near equal on the non sorc.

It wasn't that you couldn't do well on sorc. I did well before the patch, it's just that I had to make a lot of sacrifices that other classes didn't that limited my ability to compete

https://youtu.be/-FcsSHlvu3Y?si=fSBFG5zxvJFgFZML

You can see and hear here how a year ago sorc had issues even in the hands of a skilled main. He breaks down the why and what not. You can also easily see through the course of the videos from them on how sorc got better. So depending on what patch you're looking at I guess you could say sorc wasn't as bad but when this video was made there were definitely easy to spot issues.

Actually, the last tournament on PC NA before sorc ward got a heal was won by a magsorc lol.

Tournaments are terrible to try to judge by unfortunately due to variations in who is on that platform, who enters, what rules are made up, etc.

A mag sorc could definitely win with certain restrictions in play but that's not going to indicate how well magsorc was doing overall in pvp at the time.

you are the one that brought up tournaments. I was only correcting you saying magsorcs weren't winning tournaments.

the only thing I can tell you was that it was a very competitive tournament.

That tourney had some of the best duelers in the game participating and magsorc came out on top. That should speak enough about magsorc's placement in an organized and controlled environment.

See my other comment about contextualizing this win. It would have more relevance if there were a trackable pattern to it.

Not saying that I dismiss the win at all, just saying magsorc winning tournaments wasn't at all a common thing and again when we say controlled, there's no one ruleset for tournaments just whatever the tournament runners feel is fair and that needs to be taken into account.

It was a tourney with some of the best duelers in NA region, using a ruleset with specific class skill bans to prevent them from over-performing, as well as universal skills and set bans to prevent over-performing builds.

Magsorc was very strong under this ruleset because they weren’t at a disadvantage. There were no proc sets or broken combos for them to deal with. Stalemating builds such as 40k resist and 40k HP were also banned, meaning they were actually one of the tankier classes in the tournament and could actually deal threatening damage.

So I’m not sure what you’re getting at here. If you specifically said “‘no rule” tournament, then I would agree. But any serious tournament is going to attempt to create a balanced environment for all classes, and the fact of the matter is magsorc is a dominant class under this type of tournament.

Any result of a tournament/duel with a different ruleset than the current live server state when it was held is irrelevant to a class balance discussion.

Zabagad

I can remember that there was a big overall consensus that (mag-)Sorc needed help at that time. (~U35-U39?)
I guess the consensus was almost the same, like it is now that (mag-)Sorc is too strong.
This is btw imo backed up within my statistics:


At that time (~U35-U39?) even Static were asking for sorc buffs.
Most ppl here were asking for maj+min buffs in the own toolkit to get barspace and not what ZOS did.
There was also a consensus that ward was not good enough compared with healing.
(not sure about Static for that point )
And there was no problem with streak - even Static made a thread that speed was enough to counter streak.
Reducing streaks distance like someone wrote (i can't find it here) to half (now 14m would be 7m ) is a big [snip].

The "only" problem is that they did too much with 2 minor buffs first and then two major buffs with BA + ward (maybe they missunderstood our asking for min+maj buffs? ) and almost at the same time scribbing arrived.
Even if they would turn everything back to the U39 sorc state, the situation would be totally different now, because of all the scribbing skills.
So I guess the hole discussion about the past is senceless and we should care more about the future.

I don't PvP since sorc was buffed, because I can only lose. If I win, it is obvious and if I lose, I lose twice
So I still hope that ZOS is nerfing sorc! (but only on the ward heal (or BA?) and not streak.)

StaticWave

Aces-High-82 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Major_Mangle wrote: »

Iriidius wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Iriidius wrote: »

Major_Toughness wrote: »

Cyrodiil will die before U45 if no meaningful nerf to Hardened Ward is made.

Practically all of my friends quit because the only thing they like to do is solo/small-scale in Cyrodiil but playing Call of Duty against invincible magsorcs is no fun.

Hardened Ward just lost a third of its heal threw a nerf, another 2 of those nerfs and heal will be gone and it will be back to previous state before heal added and we know that magsorc was not a good class back then standing in the shadow of stamsorc and it needed a buff, so a balanced version of magsorc should be somewhere between big heal and no heal on shield which it is now.

Nah you’re wrong. Magsorc won’t be weak after all the buffs it just got. In fact it would be just as strong as other classes

Magsorc could simply drop Ward and build into spell damage for better tooltips. Their bars would look like this:

Front: Shocking Soul with Major Defile, Cfrag, Curse, Streak, Hurricane

Back: Surge, Dark Conversion, Vigor, Ele Sus, Vibrant Shroud

They could also just drop Ele Sus completely and slot Race Against Time there for 4s of Major Expedition, Minor Force, and snare/root immunity. Major Breach will be on Shocking Soul instead.

Magsorc will be just fine.

Magsorc with(out) shields was one of the worse classes almost as bad as templar/necro before hardened ward buff and the few other buffs are not enaugh to make magsorc good class without hardened ward.
10% maximum magicka/stamina is not much use if you do not stack it and have only 20k like other classes.
Seems like you also want every magsorc to drop Hardened Ward. It was a class defining skill and is already used by much less people than it used to but it should stay useable at all without a major disadvantage.
Vibrant Shroud is an AOE burst heal and not balanced for selfhealing, it costs more and heals less than any other class burst heal even with blood magic passive. Not much better than use dark deal and hope it does not get interrupted. Dark deal having a cast time to prevent permablocking does not make much sense if nb gets leeching strikes and necro gets expunge and modify without cast time and sorc is not good tank anyway. Dark deal without cast time would be better burst heal.
You could get major breach on spammable even before scribing with crushing weapon.
Should rather use wield soul as healing soul if you have bad burstheal like vibrant shroud. But actually sorcerer should also be viable without scribing skills. Otherwise we can also remove spammables or burst heals of other classes because they can use scribing.

Magsorc was nowhere near the bottom even before the hardened ward buff and claiming it was is objectively false. The class just had a much higher skill-cap than other playstyles which made it harder for the average player to succeed with it. That doesn´t mean it was in a bad spot. Hardened ward never needed a buff to begin with.

That's a bad spot when you're going up against classes that have more well rounded kits. Before the buff to shields a magsorc could barely if at all survive a meteor javelin combo where other classes could burst heal out of it. If you were doing 1vx it was advisable to go for the sorc early because they would likely be an easier kill.

I played long before the buff and had fun playing sorcerer but definitely while making sacrifices other classes didn't have to.

I wouldn't have called or bottom tier but you were definitely playing at a large disadvantage at times.

The damage is overall good but the mobility claim to fame is suspect at times and before the ward change, shroud, and scribing, burst healing was not in a good place. Which isn't bad all together but not fun depending on the class you're up against.

The heal and shield change were too much and better changes have been suggested but there was definitely an issue before ward change.

Nah he’s right.
If you ever fought a top tier sorc even before the ward buff you would know.

it just took more skill than just spamming one ability to defend. The skill ceiling for magsorc was just probably the highest of any of the classes and in the right hands it was never weak.

This is true however the point is that the same top tier sorc wasn't winning any tournaments because ultimately the kit couldn't stand up to other classes especially when skill levels was equal or near equal on the non sorc.

It wasn't that you couldn't do well on sorc. I did well before the patch, it's just that I had to make a lot of sacrifices that other classes didn't that limited my ability to compete

https://youtu.be/-FcsSHlvu3Y?si=fSBFG5zxvJFgFZML

You can see and hear here how a year ago sorc had issues even in the hands of a skilled main. He breaks down the why and what not. You can also easily see through the course of the videos from them on how sorc got better. So depending on what patch you're looking at I guess you could say sorc wasn't as bad but when this video was made there were definitely easy to spot issues.

Actually, the last tournament on PC NA before sorc ward got a heal was won by a magsorc lol.

Tournaments are terrible to try to judge by unfortunately due to variations in who is on that platform, who enters, what rules are made up, etc.

A mag sorc could definitely win with certain restrictions in play but that's not going to indicate how well magsorc was doing overall in pvp at the time.

you are the one that brought up tournaments. I was only correcting you saying magsorcs weren't winning tournaments.

the only thing I can tell you was that it was a very competitive tournament.

That tourney had some of the best duelers in the game participating and magsorc came out on top. That should speak enough about magsorc's placement in an organized and controlled environment.

See my other comment about contextualizing this win. It would have more relevance if there were a trackable pattern to it.

Not saying that I dismiss the win at all, just saying magsorc winning tournaments wasn't at all a common thing and again when we say controlled, there's no one ruleset for tournaments just whatever the tournament runners feel is fair and that needs to be taken into account.

It was a tourney with some of the best duelers in NA region, using a ruleset with specific class skill bans to prevent them from over-performing, as well as universal skills and set bans to prevent over-performing builds.

Magsorc was very strong under this ruleset because they weren’t at a disadvantage. There were no proc sets or broken combos for them to deal with. Stalemating builds such as 40k resist and 40k HP were also banned, meaning they were actually one of the tankier classes in the tournament and could actually deal threatening damage.

So I’m not sure what you’re getting at here. If you specifically said “‘no rule” tournament, then I would agree. But any serious tournament is going to attempt to create a balanced environment for all classes, and the fact of the matter is magsorc is a dominant class under this type of tournament.

Any result of a tournament/duel with a different ruleset than the current live server state when it was held is irrelevant to a class balance discussion.

Read the part where Bushido said magsorc wasn't winning tournaments. Your comment is irrelevant to this discussion lol

StaticWave

Bushido said this:

Bushido2513 wrote: »

This is true however the point is that the same top tier sorc wasn't winning any tournaments because ultimately the kit couldn't stand up to other classes especially when skill levels was equal or near equal on the non sorc.

Which @Alchimiste1 responded with this:

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

Actually, the last tournament on PC NA before sorc ward got a heal was won by a magsorc lol.

And I responded with this:

StaticWave wrote: »

So I’m not sure what you’re getting at here. If you specifically said “‘no rule” tournament, then I would agree. But any serious tournament is going to attempt to create a balanced environment for all classes, and the fact of the matter is magsorc is a dominant class under this type of tournament

Then your smarta** came into the discussion, didn't read up, and said this:

Aces-High-82 wrote: »

Any result of a tournament/duel with a different ruleset than the current live server state when it was held is irrelevant to a class balance discussion.

You didn't even make the effort to read what the 3 of us were discussing regarding magsorc in a tournament setting. Your comment is as irrelevant as what you tried to frame mine lol.

Actually, every magsorc thread you're in there defending the class so bad it almost looks like the nerf would make you unable to PvP. It's actually pretty funny lol.

xylena_lazarow

StaticWave wrote: »

regarding magsorc in a tournament setting

The ruleset artificially skewed competition in favor of a spec that doesn't require high hp or certain proc sets to function optimally, which then compounded its already existing range advantage, which I think is the direction Sorc conversation should head next. They're now mortal if you can land hits on them, but in actual gameplay they tend to sit at ranged safety parsing the entire fight, never really engaging in PvP, and get handsomely rewarded for it.

Bushido2513

StaticWave wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Major_Mangle wrote: »

Iriidius wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Iriidius wrote: »

Major_Toughness wrote: »

Cyrodiil will die before U45 if no meaningful nerf to Hardened Ward is made.

Practically all of my friends quit because the only thing they like to do is solo/small-scale in Cyrodiil but playing Call of Duty against invincible magsorcs is no fun.

Hardened Ward just lost a third of its heal threw a nerf, another 2 of those nerfs and heal will be gone and it will be back to previous state before heal added and we know that magsorc was not a good class back then standing in the shadow of stamsorc and it needed a buff, so a balanced version of magsorc should be somewhere between big heal and no heal on shield which it is now.

Nah you’re wrong. Magsorc won’t be weak after all the buffs it just got. In fact it would be just as strong as other classes

Magsorc could simply drop Ward and build into spell damage for better tooltips. Their bars would look like this:

Front: Shocking Soul with Major Defile, Cfrag, Curse, Streak, Hurricane

Back: Surge, Dark Conversion, Vigor, Ele Sus, Vibrant Shroud

They could also just drop Ele Sus completely and slot Race Against Time there for 4s of Major Expedition, Minor Force, and snare/root immunity. Major Breach will be on Shocking Soul instead.

Magsorc will be just fine.

Magsorc with(out) shields was one of the worse classes almost as bad as templar/necro before hardened ward buff and the few other buffs are not enaugh to make magsorc good class without hardened ward.
10% maximum magicka/stamina is not much use if you do not stack it and have only 20k like other classes.
Seems like you also want every magsorc to drop Hardened Ward. It was a class defining skill and is already used by much less people than it used to but it should stay useable at all without a major disadvantage.
Vibrant Shroud is an AOE burst heal and not balanced for selfhealing, it costs more and heals less than any other class burst heal even with blood magic passive. Not much better than use dark deal and hope it does not get interrupted. Dark deal having a cast time to prevent permablocking does not make much sense if nb gets leeching strikes and necro gets expunge and modify without cast time and sorc is not good tank anyway. Dark deal without cast time would be better burst heal.
You could get major breach on spammable even before scribing with crushing weapon.
Should rather use wield soul as healing soul if you have bad burstheal like vibrant shroud. But actually sorcerer should also be viable without scribing skills. Otherwise we can also remove spammables or burst heals of other classes because they can use scribing.

Magsorc was nowhere near the bottom even before the hardened ward buff and claiming it was is objectively false. The class just had a much higher skill-cap than other playstyles which made it harder for the average player to succeed with it. That doesn´t mean it was in a bad spot. Hardened ward never needed a buff to begin with.

That's a bad spot when you're going up against classes that have more well rounded kits. Before the buff to shields a magsorc could barely if at all survive a meteor javelin combo where other classes could burst heal out of it. If you were doing 1vx it was advisable to go for the sorc early because they would likely be an easier kill.

I played long before the buff and had fun playing sorcerer but definitely while making sacrifices other classes didn't have to.

I wouldn't have called or bottom tier but you were definitely playing at a large disadvantage at times.

The damage is overall good but the mobility claim to fame is suspect at times and before the ward change, shroud, and scribing, burst healing was not in a good place. Which isn't bad all together but not fun depending on the class you're up against.

The heal and shield change were too much and better changes have been suggested but there was definitely an issue before ward change.

Nah he’s right.
If you ever fought a top tier sorc even before the ward buff you would know.

it just took more skill than just spamming one ability to defend. The skill ceiling for magsorc was just probably the highest of any of the classes and in the right hands it was never weak.

This is true however the point is that the same top tier sorc wasn't winning any tournaments because ultimately the kit couldn't stand up to other classes especially when skill levels was equal or near equal on the non sorc.

It wasn't that you couldn't do well on sorc. I did well before the patch, it's just that I had to make a lot of sacrifices that other classes didn't that limited my ability to compete

https://youtu.be/-FcsSHlvu3Y?si=fSBFG5zxvJFgFZML

You can see and hear here how a year ago sorc had issues even in the hands of a skilled main. He breaks down the why and what not. You can also easily see through the course of the videos from them on how sorc got better. So depending on what patch you're looking at I guess you could say sorc wasn't as bad but when this video was made there were definitely easy to spot issues.

Actually, the last tournament on PC NA before sorc ward got a heal was won by a magsorc lol.

Tournaments are terrible to try to judge by unfortunately due to variations in who is on that platform, who enters, what rules are made up, etc.

A mag sorc could definitely win with certain restrictions in play but that's not going to indicate how well magsorc was doing overall in pvp at the time.

you are the one that brought up tournaments. I was only correcting you saying magsorcs weren't winning tournaments.

the only thing I can tell you was that it was a very competitive tournament.

That tourney had some of the best duelers in the game participating and magsorc came out on top. That should speak enough about magsorc's placement in an organized and controlled environment.

See my other comment about contextualizing this win. It would have more relevance if there were a trackable pattern to it.

Not saying that I dismiss the win at all, just saying magsorc winning tournaments wasn't at all a common thing and again when we say controlled, there's no one ruleset for tournaments just whatever the tournament runners feel is fair and that needs to be taken into account.

It was a tourney with some of the best duelers in NA region, using a ruleset with specific class skill bans to prevent them from over-performing, as well as universal skills and set bans to prevent over-performing builds.

Magsorc was very strong under this ruleset because they weren’t at a disadvantage. There were no proc sets or broken combos for them to deal with. Stalemating builds such as 40k resist and 40k HP were also banned, meaning they were actually one of the tankier classes in the tournament and could actually deal threatening damage.

So I’m not sure what you’re getting at here. If you specifically said “‘no rule” tournament, then I would agree. But any serious tournament is going to attempt to create a balanced environment for all classes, and the fact of the matter is magsorc is a dominant class under this type of tournament.

I'm saying when group XYZ makes up rules for a tournament then it's possible that those rules can benefit one class and not another so if someone wins under those conditions or loses under those conditions it's a bit complicated to say what that really means. Again I'm not saying this completely supports my point because I could see it both ways as to a sorc winning or losing a tournament depending on the rules. I admit that could weaken my argument on sorc not winning tournaments which just brings us back to sorc just being undeniably weaker in the past when there were no special rules at play.

Unfortunately all this tournament talk end up showing is that under rulesets sorc can possibly win a tournament though they still lost more of them than they won. Could be a weaker kit, could have been bad rules. Who knows

Bushido2513

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

regarding magsorc in a tournament setting

The ruleset artificially skewed competition in favor of a spec that doesn't require high hp or certain proc sets to function optimally, which then compounded its already existing range advantage, which I think is the direction Sorc conversation should head next. They're now mortal if you can land hits on them, but in actual gameplay they tend to sit at ranged safety parsing the entire fight, never really engaging in PvP, and get handsomely rewarded for it.

I play both as ranged and as melee depending on my preference and I notice that with range play I'm usually blowing up players at range that have bad positioning or that I would kill even if I was up close.

Good players usually just close the distance and apply enough pressure to make me have to consider my offense defense trade offs. I don't mind any class having burst but they need to have appropriate levels of defense that allow for response to damage without making a player oppressive.

StaticWave

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

regarding magsorc in a tournament setting

The ruleset artificially skewed competition in favor of a spec that doesn't require high hp or certain proc sets to function optimally, which then compounded its already existing range advantage, which I think is the direction Sorc conversation should head next. They're now mortal if you can land hits on them, but in actual gameplay they tend to sit at ranged safety parsing the entire fight, never really engaging in PvP, and get handsomely rewarded for it.

I mean the rules definitely amplify magsorc's strength, but it's a byproduct of trying to balance PvP in a 1v1 setting. Some of the rules look like this:

- Max HP limited to 32.0k
- Major Evasion Ban
- Elemental resistance glyphs ban
- All Defensive ultimates ban (healing ults, snb ult, magma armor and morphs, undo)
- No transformation ultimates (sorry werewolves, vampires, necromancer)
- Crit resistance limited to 2800
- Physical/Spell resistance limited to 28,600

Consumable Bans
- Immovable pots
- Armor pots
- Heroism pots
- Lingering HP/Vitality pots
- Oblivion Glyph
- Only double dot poisons allowed

CP Bans
- More than 2 defensive/healing CP (blue tree only)
- Bracing anchor
- Cleansing revival

Set Bans
⚠️ All sets that do damage outside of your abilities ex. Relequen, Zaan, Way of Fire, Master DW, Asylum Staff etc. please ask an officer or host if you have a specific question
⚠️ All sets that apply status outside of your abilities threads of war, asylum staff, etc. BSW is okay
⚠️All sets that heal outside of your abilities ex.Essence Thief, Cyrodiil's Crest
⚠️All sets that apply debuffs to the opponent ex. Jerall, Kynmarcher... NMG is okay
⚠️All sets that apply a healing buff to the player ex. Daedric Trickery
⚠️All sets that apply damage mitigation as a proc or give a unique damage mitigation ex. Armor Master, Pariah, Trial By fire, Rallying Cry, Gossamer, etc.
⚠️All sets that remove negative effects.
⚠️Mechanical Acuity
⚠️Meridia's Blessed Armor
⚠️Wretched Vitality
⚠️Serpent's Disdain
⚠️Old Growth Brewer
⚠️Roksa
⚠️Torug's Pact
⚠️Balorgh

Mythic Bans
⚠️SSC
⚠️Torc of Ayleid King (please make a build thanks)
⚠️Thrassian
⚠️Bloodlord's embrace
⚠️Faun's Lark
⚠️Gaze of Sithis
⚠️Lefthander's
⚠️Pale Order
⚠️Rourken Steamguards
⚠️Belharza's Band
⚠️Esoteric
⚠️Oakensoul
⚠️Saint and Seducer

Class Specific Bans

Dragonknight
⚠️ Wings
⚠️ Ash Cloud and morphs
⚠️ Shattering Rocks cannot be used with Cauterize
⚠️ Shifting Standard

Nightblade
⚠️ Shadow Cloak and morphs
⚠️ Consuming Darkness and morphs

Sorcerer
⚠️Hardened Ward
⚠️ All forms of blink/streak
⚠️ Crystal Weapon on ranged weapons
⚠️ Mines
⚠️ Negate

Templar
⚠️ All Ranged Spec (ele weapon, force pulse, bow spammables)
⚠️ All forms of Javelin
⚠️ Eclipse and morphs
⚠️ Extended Ritual
⚠️ Crescent Sweep

Warden
⚠️ Deceptive Predator
⚠️ Crystallized Shield and morphs
⚠️ Budding Seeds
⚠️ Northern Storm

Necromancer
⚠️ Expunge and morphs

Arcanist
⚠️ Rune of Uncanny Adoration
⚠️ Runic Defense and morphs
⚠️ Remedy Cascade and morphs
⚠️ Apocryphal Gate and morphs
⚠️ Gibbering Shield and morphs

Skill Specific Bans
⚠️ All scribing abilities
⚠️ Flame Clench
⚠️ Ice wall of elements
⚠️ Bow ultimate base morph and Toxic Barrage
⚠️ Trap beast
⚠️ Destro Ult
⚠️ Healing Springs and morphs
⚠️ Mist Form
⚠️ Frost Clench

Notice how Necro only has 1 class skill ban whereas Plar, Sorc, Warden, DK and Arc have 4+ class skill bans. Most of these bans prevent stalemate builds or class specific builds that have too much oppressive pressure. I'd say this ruleset is as close as we can get to a "balanced" 1v1 tournament.

It just so happens that in this ruleset, magsorc is on the dominating side. It's understandable though because in a normal PvP environment, most classes can leverage better sets and appear to be overperforming. Meanwhile magsorc still ran the same max mag sets and were left behind. With Ward change, 10% extra max mag, Vibrant Shroud rework, and Blood Magic passive, magsorc can leverage the same sets as other classes and are no longer behind in terms of power difference. Whether people choose to take advantage of this is up to them, but they can't really say magsorc is not good anymore if Ward got nerfed. There are still 3-4 more buffs that brought magsorc up to par with other classes in this current meta.

Bushido2513

StaticWave wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

regarding magsorc in a tournament setting

The ruleset artificially skewed competition in favor of a spec that doesn't require high hp or certain proc sets to function optimally, which then compounded its already existing range advantage, which I think is the direction Sorc conversation should head next. They're now mortal if you can land hits on them, but in actual gameplay they tend to sit at ranged safety parsing the entire fight, never really engaging in PvP, and get handsomely rewarded for it.

I mean the rules definitely amplify magsorc's strength, but it's a byproduct of trying to balance PvP in a 1v1 setting. Some of the rules look like this:

- Max HP limited to 32.0k
- Major Evasion Ban
- Elemental resistance glyphs ban
- All Defensive ultimates ban (healing ults, snb ult, magma armor and morphs, undo)
- No transformation ultimates (sorry werewolves, vampires, necromancer)
- Crit resistance limited to 2800
- Physical/Spell resistance limited to 28,600

Consumable Bans
- Immovable pots
- Armor pots
- Heroism pots
- Lingering HP/Vitality pots
- Oblivion Glyph
- Only double dot poisons allowed

CP Bans
- More than 2 defensive/healing CP (blue tree only)
- Bracing anchor
- Cleansing revival

Set Bans
⚠️ All sets that do damage outside of your abilities ex. Relequen, Zaan, Way of Fire, Master DW, Asylum Staff etc. please ask an officer or host if you have a specific question
⚠️ All sets that apply status outside of your abilities threads of war, asylum staff, etc. BSW is okay
⚠️All sets that heal outside of your abilities ex.Essence Thief, Cyrodiil's Crest
⚠️All sets that apply debuffs to the opponent ex. Jerall, Kynmarcher... NMG is okay
⚠️All sets that apply a healing buff to the player ex. Daedric Trickery
⚠️All sets that apply damage mitigation as a proc or give a unique damage mitigation ex. Armor Master, Pariah, Trial By fire, Rallying Cry, Gossamer, etc.
⚠️All sets that remove negative effects.
⚠️Mechanical Acuity
⚠️Meridia's Blessed Armor
⚠️Wretched Vitality
⚠️Serpent's Disdain
⚠️Old Growth Brewer
⚠️Roksa
⚠️Torug's Pact
⚠️Balorgh

Mythic Bans
⚠️SSC
⚠️Torc of Ayleid King (please make a build thanks)
⚠️Thrassian
⚠️Bloodlord's embrace
⚠️Faun's Lark
⚠️Gaze of Sithis
⚠️Lefthander's
⚠️Pale Order
⚠️Rourken Steamguards
⚠️Belharza's Band
⚠️Esoteric
⚠️Oakensoul
⚠️Saint and Seducer

Class Specific Bans

Dragonknight
⚠️ Wings
⚠️ Ash Cloud and morphs
⚠️ Shattering Rocks cannot be used with Cauterize
⚠️ Shifting Standard

Nightblade
⚠️ Shadow Cloak and morphs
⚠️ Consuming Darkness and morphs

Sorcerer
⚠️Hardened Ward
⚠️ All forms of blink/streak
⚠️ Crystal Weapon on ranged weapons
⚠️ Mines
⚠️ Negate

Templar
⚠️ All Ranged Spec (ele weapon, force pulse, bow spammables)
⚠️ All forms of Javelin
⚠️ Eclipse and morphs
⚠️ Extended Ritual
⚠️ Crescent Sweep

Warden
⚠️ Deceptive Predator
⚠️ Crystallized Shield and morphs
⚠️ Budding Seeds
⚠️ Northern Storm

Necromancer
⚠️ Expunge and morphs

Arcanist
⚠️ Rune of Uncanny Adoration
⚠️ Runic Defense and morphs
⚠️ Remedy Cascade and morphs
⚠️ Apocryphal Gate and morphs
⚠️ Gibbering Shield and morphs

Skill Specific Bans
⚠️ All scribing abilities
⚠️ Flame Clench
⚠️ Ice wall of elements
⚠️ Bow ultimate base morph and Toxic Barrage
⚠️ Trap beast
⚠️ Destro Ult
⚠️ Healing Springs and morphs
⚠️ Mist Form
⚠️ Frost Clench

Notice how Necro only has 1 class skill ban whereas Plar, Sorc, Warden, DK and Arc have 4+ class skill bans. Most of these bans prevent stalemate builds or class specific builds that have too much oppressive pressure. I'd say this ruleset is as close as we can get to a "balanced" 1v1 tournament.

It just so happens that in this ruleset, magsorc is on the dominating side. It's understandable though because in a normal PvP environment, most classes can leverage better sets and appear to be overperforming. Meanwhile magsorc still ran the same max mag sets and were left behind. With Ward change, 10% extra max mag, Vibrant Shroud rework, and Blood Magic passive, magsorc can leverage the same sets as other classes and are no longer behind in terms of power difference. Whether people choose to take advantage of this is up to them, but they can't really say magsorc is not good anymore if Ward got nerfed. There are still 3-4 more buffs that brought magsorc up to par with other classes in this current meta.

I gave a test to what you're saying here and I'll say that it's playable for sure but shroud is about utility more than burst heal so with its cost I wouldn't quite put it up there with offering or maybe even coag or polar.

I was definitely able to survive but for some reason it still felt just slightly under par to what other classes have available.

The cost is similar to ward but didn't seem to equal the 11kish ward with 2k heal. I know others can get bigger numbers but I'm just going with that I had on.

I understand ward can't crit and that depending on build shroud can crit for same or bigger numbers but I suppose I may be slightly more ok with the static number of ward and the buffer ability it allows.

Sorc is definitely playable without ward but I think how much power you get out of that build can vary a bit

StaticWave

Bushido2513 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

regarding magsorc in a tournament setting

The ruleset artificially skewed competition in favor of a spec that doesn't require high hp or certain proc sets to function optimally, which then compounded its already existing range advantage, which I think is the direction Sorc conversation should head next. They're now mortal if you can land hits on them, but in actual gameplay they tend to sit at ranged safety parsing the entire fight, never really engaging in PvP, and get handsomely rewarded for it.

I mean the rules definitely amplify magsorc's strength, but it's a byproduct of trying to balance PvP in a 1v1 setting. Some of the rules look like this:

- Max HP limited to 32.0k
- Major Evasion Ban
- Elemental resistance glyphs ban
- All Defensive ultimates ban (healing ults, snb ult, magma armor and morphs, undo)
- No transformation ultimates (sorry werewolves, vampires, necromancer)
- Crit resistance limited to 2800
- Physical/Spell resistance limited to 28,600

Consumable Bans
- Immovable pots
- Armor pots
- Heroism pots
- Lingering HP/Vitality pots
- Oblivion Glyph
- Only double dot poisons allowed

CP Bans
- More than 2 defensive/healing CP (blue tree only)
- Bracing anchor
- Cleansing revival

Set Bans
⚠️ All sets that do damage outside of your abilities ex. Relequen, Zaan, Way of Fire, Master DW, Asylum Staff etc. please ask an officer or host if you have a specific question
⚠️ All sets that apply status outside of your abilities threads of war, asylum staff, etc. BSW is okay
⚠️All sets that heal outside of your abilities ex.Essence Thief, Cyrodiil's Crest
⚠️All sets that apply debuffs to the opponent ex. Jerall, Kynmarcher... NMG is okay
⚠️All sets that apply a healing buff to the player ex. Daedric Trickery
⚠️All sets that apply damage mitigation as a proc or give a unique damage mitigation ex. Armor Master, Pariah, Trial By fire, Rallying Cry, Gossamer, etc.
⚠️All sets that remove negative effects.
⚠️Mechanical Acuity
⚠️Meridia's Blessed Armor
⚠️Wretched Vitality
⚠️Serpent's Disdain
⚠️Old Growth Brewer
⚠️Roksa
⚠️Torug's Pact
⚠️Balorgh

Mythic Bans
⚠️SSC
⚠️Torc of Ayleid King (please make a build thanks)
⚠️Thrassian
⚠️Bloodlord's embrace
⚠️Faun's Lark
⚠️Gaze of Sithis
⚠️Lefthander's
⚠️Pale Order
⚠️Rourken Steamguards
⚠️Belharza's Band
⚠️Esoteric
⚠️Oakensoul
⚠️Saint and Seducer

Class Specific Bans

Dragonknight
⚠️ Wings
⚠️ Ash Cloud and morphs
⚠️ Shattering Rocks cannot be used with Cauterize
⚠️ Shifting Standard

Nightblade
⚠️ Shadow Cloak and morphs
⚠️ Consuming Darkness and morphs

Sorcerer
⚠️Hardened Ward
⚠️ All forms of blink/streak
⚠️ Crystal Weapon on ranged weapons
⚠️ Mines
⚠️ Negate

Templar
⚠️ All Ranged Spec (ele weapon, force pulse, bow spammables)
⚠️ All forms of Javelin
⚠️ Eclipse and morphs
⚠️ Extended Ritual
⚠️ Crescent Sweep

Warden
⚠️ Deceptive Predator
⚠️ Crystallized Shield and morphs
⚠️ Budding Seeds
⚠️ Northern Storm

Necromancer
⚠️ Expunge and morphs

Arcanist
⚠️ Rune of Uncanny Adoration
⚠️ Runic Defense and morphs
⚠️ Remedy Cascade and morphs
⚠️ Apocryphal Gate and morphs
⚠️ Gibbering Shield and morphs

Skill Specific Bans
⚠️ All scribing abilities
⚠️ Flame Clench
⚠️ Ice wall of elements
⚠️ Bow ultimate base morph and Toxic Barrage
⚠️ Trap beast
⚠️ Destro Ult
⚠️ Healing Springs and morphs
⚠️ Mist Form
⚠️ Frost Clench

Notice how Necro only has 1 class skill ban whereas Plar, Sorc, Warden, DK and Arc have 4+ class skill bans. Most of these bans prevent stalemate builds or class specific builds that have too much oppressive pressure. I'd say this ruleset is as close as we can get to a "balanced" 1v1 tournament.

It just so happens that in this ruleset, magsorc is on the dominating side. It's understandable though because in a normal PvP environment, most classes can leverage better sets and appear to be overperforming. Meanwhile magsorc still ran the same max mag sets and were left behind. With Ward change, 10% extra max mag, Vibrant Shroud rework, and Blood Magic passive, magsorc can leverage the same sets as other classes and are no longer behind in terms of power difference. Whether people choose to take advantage of this is up to them, but they can't really say magsorc is not good anymore if Ward got nerfed. There are still 3-4 more buffs that brought magsorc up to par with other classes in this current meta.

I gave a test to what you're saying here and I'll say that it's playable for sure but shroud is about utility more than burst heal so with its cost I wouldn't quite put it up there with offering or maybe even coag or polar.

I was definitely able to survive but for some reason it still felt just slightly under par to what other classes have available.

The cost is similar to ward but didn't seem to equal the 11kish ward with 2k heal. I know others can get bigger numbers but I'm just going with that I had on.

I understand ward can't crit and that depending on build shroud can crit for same or bigger numbers but I suppose I may be slightly more ok with the static number of ward and the buffer ability it allows.

Sorc is definitely playable without ward but I think how much power you get out of that build can vary a bit

Shroud has the same tooltip as Offering if you account for Blood Magic passive. Major Maim and the heal being a full AoE is why Shroud is better than Offering or Coag.

Bushido2513

StaticWave wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

regarding magsorc in a tournament setting

The ruleset artificially skewed competition in favor of a spec that doesn't require high hp or certain proc sets to function optimally, which then compounded its already existing range advantage, which I think is the direction Sorc conversation should head next. They're now mortal if you can land hits on them, but in actual gameplay they tend to sit at ranged safety parsing the entire fight, never really engaging in PvP, and get handsomely rewarded for it.

I mean the rules definitely amplify magsorc's strength, but it's a byproduct of trying to balance PvP in a 1v1 setting. Some of the rules look like this:

- Max HP limited to 32.0k
- Major Evasion Ban
- Elemental resistance glyphs ban
- All Defensive ultimates ban (healing ults, snb ult, magma armor and morphs, undo)
- No transformation ultimates (sorry werewolves, vampires, necromancer)
- Crit resistance limited to 2800
- Physical/Spell resistance limited to 28,600

Consumable Bans
- Immovable pots
- Armor pots
- Heroism pots
- Lingering HP/Vitality pots
- Oblivion Glyph
- Only double dot poisons allowed

CP Bans
- More than 2 defensive/healing CP (blue tree only)
- Bracing anchor
- Cleansing revival

Set Bans
⚠️ All sets that do damage outside of your abilities ex. Relequen, Zaan, Way of Fire, Master DW, Asylum Staff etc. please ask an officer or host if you have a specific question
⚠️ All sets that apply status outside of your abilities threads of war, asylum staff, etc. BSW is okay
⚠️All sets that heal outside of your abilities ex.Essence Thief, Cyrodiil's Crest
⚠️All sets that apply debuffs to the opponent ex. Jerall, Kynmarcher... NMG is okay
⚠️All sets that apply a healing buff to the player ex. Daedric Trickery
⚠️All sets that apply damage mitigation as a proc or give a unique damage mitigation ex. Armor Master, Pariah, Trial By fire, Rallying Cry, Gossamer, etc.
⚠️All sets that remove negative effects.
⚠️Mechanical Acuity
⚠️Meridia's Blessed Armor
⚠️Wretched Vitality
⚠️Serpent's Disdain
⚠️Old Growth Brewer
⚠️Roksa
⚠️Torug's Pact
⚠️Balorgh

Mythic Bans
⚠️SSC
⚠️Torc of Ayleid King (please make a build thanks)
⚠️Thrassian
⚠️Bloodlord's embrace
⚠️Faun's Lark
⚠️Gaze of Sithis
⚠️Lefthander's
⚠️Pale Order
⚠️Rourken Steamguards
⚠️Belharza's Band
⚠️Esoteric
⚠️Oakensoul
⚠️Saint and Seducer

Class Specific Bans

Dragonknight
⚠️ Wings
⚠️ Ash Cloud and morphs
⚠️ Shattering Rocks cannot be used with Cauterize
⚠️ Shifting Standard

Nightblade
⚠️ Shadow Cloak and morphs
⚠️ Consuming Darkness and morphs

Sorcerer
⚠️Hardened Ward
⚠️ All forms of blink/streak
⚠️ Crystal Weapon on ranged weapons
⚠️ Mines
⚠️ Negate

Templar
⚠️ All Ranged Spec (ele weapon, force pulse, bow spammables)
⚠️ All forms of Javelin
⚠️ Eclipse and morphs
⚠️ Extended Ritual
⚠️ Crescent Sweep

Warden
⚠️ Deceptive Predator
⚠️ Crystallized Shield and morphs
⚠️ Budding Seeds
⚠️ Northern Storm

Necromancer
⚠️ Expunge and morphs

Arcanist
⚠️ Rune of Uncanny Adoration
⚠️ Runic Defense and morphs
⚠️ Remedy Cascade and morphs
⚠️ Apocryphal Gate and morphs
⚠️ Gibbering Shield and morphs

Skill Specific Bans
⚠️ All scribing abilities
⚠️ Flame Clench
⚠️ Ice wall of elements
⚠️ Bow ultimate base morph and Toxic Barrage
⚠️ Trap beast
⚠️ Destro Ult
⚠️ Healing Springs and morphs
⚠️ Mist Form
⚠️ Frost Clench

Notice how Necro only has 1 class skill ban whereas Plar, Sorc, Warden, DK and Arc have 4+ class skill bans. Most of these bans prevent stalemate builds or class specific builds that have too much oppressive pressure. I'd say this ruleset is as close as we can get to a "balanced" 1v1 tournament.

It just so happens that in this ruleset, magsorc is on the dominating side. It's understandable though because in a normal PvP environment, most classes can leverage better sets and appear to be overperforming. Meanwhile magsorc still ran the same max mag sets and were left behind. With Ward change, 10% extra max mag, Vibrant Shroud rework, and Blood Magic passive, magsorc can leverage the same sets as other classes and are no longer behind in terms of power difference. Whether people choose to take advantage of this is up to them, but they can't really say magsorc is not good anymore if Ward got nerfed. There are still 3-4 more buffs that brought magsorc up to par with other classes in this current meta.

I gave a test to what you're saying here and I'll say that it's playable for sure but shroud is about utility more than burst heal so with its cost I wouldn't quite put it up there with offering or maybe even coag or polar.

I was definitely able to survive but for some reason it still felt just slightly under par to what other classes have available.

The cost is similar to ward but didn't seem to equal the 11kish ward with 2k heal. I know others can get bigger numbers but I'm just going with that I had on.

I understand ward can't crit and that depending on build shroud can crit for same or bigger numbers but I suppose I may be slightly more ok with the static number of ward and the buffer ability it allows.

Sorc is definitely playable without ward but I think how much power you get out of that build can vary a bit

Shroud has the same tooltip as Offering if you account for Blood Magic passive. Major Maim and the heal being a full AoE is why Shroud is better than Offering or Coag.

I haven't taken the and build and put it on NB so I'd take your word for that since the last time I looked at it perhaps it was a different build, race, cp, vamp stealth passive kicked in, etc. I believe the cost was a little more to my preference being that it was 4500ish I believe even with reduction passive and me not being a vamp. Of course I believe the utility warrants that but that's where I'd prefer a lower cost higher single target burst.

It was definitely playable though I prefer my skills to have a little more give on the cost in case I make a mistake on over casting.

If I get time I may try to either just move the gear over to my NB or do something in uesp to compare.