Hardened Ward heal making it to live is a mistake and needs to be changed

Bushido2513

Galeriano2 wrote: »

IncultaWolf wrote: »

Aces-High-82 wrote: »

IncultaWolf wrote: »

Okay, only took a couple battlegrounds to get a funny clip of me standing still spamming hardened ward and face tanking multiple ultimates before rolling away and popping a potion, streaking, and moving on with the match.

This is a high mmr battleground, no CP enabled, with multiple good 5 star rank pvpers parsing on me. I don't have vigor, or any heals other than hardened ward here, and I have less than 30k hp. What other class can do this? It's pretty silly. Corrosive dragonknights? Naah not even a threat anymore just press the button and sit there and laugh. Reminder that I don't even play sorcerer that much and this is an argonian lol. I also have really high damage and constantly get the highest kdr in my matches.

https://youtu.be/zPcrUAdJ1nQ?si=T95y_rIeazzkDQ8_

As soon as you got focused you had to dodge and break los. Nothing special to see here....

Absorbing 3 ults with one button is fair right? I had no hots, no vigor, no crit surge, and 29k hp, all I did was press hardened ward and it did all of that. Now imagine if I had crit surge and vigor up, I could have sat there for way longer, the point of the video was to show just how strong the shield itself is. NO OTHER CLASS CAN DO THIS, please prove me wrong.

You were blockcasting during the 3 ult part of the fight so I wouldn't call it surviving with one button. You really wouldn't have sat there for longer with vigor and surge. That clip lasts 22 seconds and You only started to recive some focus worth of mentioning in 15th second and the moment that happened You began to melt like a popsicle and drain out of resources pretty quick to the point 7 seconds later You were low on stam, mag and HP while not having CC immunity and potion being on cooldown. Focus You recived during that 7 seconds wasn't even that great. No well executed combos on You and no unblockable stuns just 3 people spamming their abilities in a random manner with arcanist's beam joining at the end. And seeing how they were applying their pressure to You they don't seem as "good 5 star ranking PvPers" or they atleast weren't in that particular moment. Plenty of setups on every class could facetank similar level of focus. As for You, any unblockable stun You would recive during that 7 seconds focus window would mean Your death. You wouldn't even have a stam to keep vigor up and You were not dealing any damage to keep surge healing. I wouldn't be suprised if it would turn out that video was cut 2 seconds before You died.

Radiant spam, a spec bow, full dots from a stamsorc, etc would have made the video into a much different combo. Having said that though I think the jsmalls video is a better representation because while he's low hp and shielding he's on the move the majority of the time and admits to dealing with mostly non threats.

People want to make it seem like you're tanking multiple sources of damage without doing what sorc usually has to do and moving around. Yes in mediocre non focused damage sorcs will fair better than they have but I've seen real heat melt sorcs in this patch easily regardless of shield spam. If I hadn't then yes I'd be more worried but so far this change just doesn't seem all that bad when taken into perspective of other things already in the game.

StaticWave

This is a clip of a popular ESO streamer, Eman the Chosen, who used to play on console but recently transferred to PC NA. In this clip, you can see him trying to execute a magsorc that just doesn't die and can tank his damage by casting Hardened Ward. He's just tanking it with 1 skill, not even blocking or dodge rolling.

This is just one out of many examples of magsorc being absolutely broken right now in terms of tankiness and survivability. Takes absolutely no skill to stand still and spam 1 button with 55k+ magicka and never die, while also having unmatched mobility with Streak. I bet if he leaves the fight, that magSorc will chase him down and force him to fight that Sorc again, knowing full well there's nothing he can do to kill the Sorc.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q5nDdK5yiAg&t=14051s

Bushido2513

StaticWave wrote: »

This is a clip of a popular ESO streamer, Eman the Chosen, who used to play on console but recently transferred to PC NA. In this clip, you can see him trying to execute a magsorc that just doesn't die and can tank his damage by casting Hardened Ward. He's just tanking it with 1 skill, not even blocking or dodge rolling.

This is just one out of many examples of magsorc being absolutely broken right now in terms of tankiness and survivability. Takes absolutely no skill to stand still and spam 1 button with 55k+ magicka and never die, while also having unmatched mobility with Streak. I bet if he leaves the fight, that magSorc will chase him down and force him to fight that Sorc again, knowing full well there's nothing he can do to kill the Sorc.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q5nDdK5yiAg&t=14051s

I think your link is coming up at the wrong place because I don't see the fight you speak of.

But even still I don't think anyone can or is debating how strong this is in 1v1.

So if the game was balanced around 1v1 this would definitely be a high priority issue.

I'm pretty sure if even one other competent player shows up that's the kite begins. Group/ team play is the main focus of pvp at this point.

Jsmalls

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Honestly, I don't know why I have to explain in depth like this. It's so easy to see why Sorc is busted

I don't think any of us are still trying to convince Bushido or Smalls, rather I see these posts being important to show the other 10k+ thread viewers that haven't posted, and to keep it on the radar for ZOS. Ward is obviously broken to anyone who understands cmx results and the value of gcds and bar compression, but I get why it's going to be a bitter pill to swallow for the struggling casual sorc player who is happy to finally survive easily on an otherwise difficult high apm class.

@xylena_lazarow

Woah woah woah I've stated since the PTS that it was Overtuned. I just also said that it's not out of place for the current meta of this game. You see nightblades (who also have great mobility and a disengage fight button) have amazing healing (got even easier this patch), Wardens have insane healing, Templars have insane healing etc etc

@StaticWave

Says you're too tanky from one button (and having that much damage potential). We've countered with yes but that one button has two additional skills "passives" slotted to make that button stronger. I have NO issue with pressing more buttons, I've been running Bound Aegis since you had to press it for 20 seconds of minor protection (think they made it always active 2 patches ago?) Do I think a cool down is worth minor protection? Not really... But if it makes you guys happy that Mag Sorcs have more cool downs to run through I'm fine with it.

The other suggestion was changing it to a HoT. I said that would actually make the ability STRONGER when using it proactively. Now if you strip the shield in 2 seconds, Blood Magic, Crit Surge, and the Ward HoT are all ticking on my actual health. That would make it STRONGER for me in my opinion because I could stay offensive for an extra second or two.

But I don't think Sorcs are out here out tanking Wardens, Templars, and DKs atm (nor should they or nightblades with the extra "defenses" they have for being more stationary). An example being I ran across HeyJensen and his squad in IC the other day. It was 4v4, each group had a healer, we took out two of them in the first GvG fight and he streaked away from the 4v2, why? Because he wouldn't survive otherwise. Then he regrouped with his full team and they wiped us (they focused our healer, good on them). He would not have survived that fight without their dedicated healer. I alone was pressuring him enough to have him kiting behind his group. Nor did I survive 3 good damage dealers going after me.

I also have stated that Block Casting is something that is EXTREMELY effective in a 1vX scenario and is less effective with Hardened Ward. That's a fact.

But I've given my opinions on balancing it (I think the heal should scale from weapon power and the Ward should scale from Max magicka that was you can't have both the heal and shield super high). I've also given data to bring light to it. I've done my due diligence for great feedback of the ability, its not my place to balance it though.

xylena_lazarow

So I finally encountered a random 1v1 with a relatively strong experienced mag sorc player in the wilds of Cyro yesterday NA prime time. We dueled 10 minutes before being interrupted by zergers. The sorc was on his back foot the entire time with low chance to win, but was tanking 5k duel dps with 1 button + passives while managing to throw around enough 11k frags and 8k curses to still threaten a combo kill and prevent me from going full offensive and finishing him off.

Below is my dps in the fight, if not for the zerger interruption it should've been over 5k. I run a 32k hp open world mdw dot arc with high mobility and sustain, not a full dueling build. For open world builds, above 4k dps is "good" and will win the majority of 1v1s against other damage builds. Probably would've won if I didn't go potato and forget to re-slot Bastion.


Next is how the sorc player did on damage while healing 5k hps with 1 button + passives. The sorc obviously wasn't able to pressure me, but with those numbers, damage spikes were still very threatening, and the player knew what he was doing on the class, frequently forcing me to deal with Streak-Overload combos. Wasn't someone else ITT making a big deal about high hp warden supports with 5k hps? Uhh this is a fast mobile RANGED NUKE doing 5k hps. With 1 button.


For power scaling context, here's how I do in sweaty high MMR deathmatch on my 32k hp arc. Relatively mid power lobby last Saturday afternoon, all random, a few strong ones and many familiar names, my team was 3 the whole match, 9-0-22.


So yea, it would be one thing for a tanky melee DK with Coag and layers of hots to absorb 5k duel dps, for a full damage mobile ranged nuke sorc to do that is already insane, to do it just with passives and literal 1 button spam? Lol. Lmao.

StaticWave

Jsmalls wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Honestly, I don't know why I have to explain in depth like this. It's so easy to see why Sorc is busted

I don't think any of us are still trying to convince Bushido or Smalls, rather I see these posts being important to show the other 10k+ thread viewers that haven't posted, and to keep it on the radar for ZOS. Ward is obviously broken to anyone who understands cmx results and the value of gcds and bar compression, but I get why it's going to be a bitter pill to swallow for the struggling casual sorc player who is happy to finally survive easily on an otherwise difficult high apm class.

@xylena_lazarow

Woah woah woah I've stated since the PTS that it was Overtuned. I just also said that it's not out of place for the current meta of this game. You see nightblades (who also have great mobility and a disengage fight button) have amazing healing (got even easier this patch), Wardens have insane healing, Templars have insane healing etc etc

@StaticWave

Says you're too tanky from one button (and having that much damage potential). We've countered with yes but that one button has two additional skills "passives" slotted to make that button stronger. I have NO issue with pressing more buttons, I've been running Bound Aegis since you had to press it for 20 seconds of minor protection (think they made it always active 2 patches ago?) Do I think a cool down is worth minor protection? Not really... But if it makes you guys happy that Mag Sorcs have more cool downs to run through I'm fine with it.

The other suggestion was changing it to a HoT. I said that would actually make the ability STRONGER when using it proactively. Now if you strip the shield in 2 seconds, Blood Magic, Crit Surge, and the Ward HoT are all ticking on my actual health. That would make it STRONGER for me in my opinion because I could stay offensive for an extra second or two.

But I don't think Sorcs are out here out tanking Wardens, Templars, and DKs atm (nor should they or nightblades with the extra "defenses" they have for being more stationary). An example being I ran across HeyJensen and his squad in IC the other day. It was 4v4, each group had a healer, we took out two of them in the first GvG fight and he streaked away from the 4v2, why? Because he wouldn't survive otherwise. Then he regrouped with his full team and they wiped us (they focused our healer, good on them). He would not have survived that fight without their dedicated healer. I alone was pressuring him enough to have him kiting behind his group. Nor did I survive 3 good damage dealers going after me.

I also have stated that Block Casting is something that is EXTREMELY effective in a 1vX scenario and is less effective with Hardened Ward. That's a fact.

But I've given my opinions on balancing it (I think the heal should scale from weapon power and the Ward should scale from Max magicka that was you can't have both the heal and shield super high). I've also given data to bring light to it. I've done my due diligence for great feedback of the ability, its not my place to balance it though.

I am fine with Ward being stronger when used proactively. After all, that WAS the intention of this ability’s design - to reward Sorcs with good shield uptime. But poor shield uptime SHOULD BE PUNISHED, and this patch Sorcs are getting away with dropping their shields because they can just spam it at low HP and get out of execute range in 1-2 GCDs, and I’ve shown multiple videos demonstrating it.

As for your 4v4 scenario, no other class can survive 4 good players by themselves, and definitely not in a full damage build. I don’t think I’ve ever stated anything in my arguments that a Sorc can tank good players. I did say Sorc can tank multiple players in a full damage build, which is factually true. So i’m not sure if you are misinterpreting my argument or not, so I wanted to clarify that. When you 1vX, you can’t face tank a group of pugs without speccing for a lot of defense. Sorc can do that with a full damage build.

Bushido2513

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

So I finally encountered a random 1v1 with a relatively strong experienced mag sorc player in the wilds of Cyro yesterday NA prime time. We dueled 10 minutes before being interrupted by zergers. .

ESO is definitely play as you want but I think people need to always remember that how you want to play just may not be supported.

Lots of duels can end this way even if you switch out the classes and as I've already said and agreed, ward is overtuned for duels which isn't really supported. The gameplay that interrupted your duel is what I would argue is the intended gameplay.


I'm not really a big fan of having to basically group up just to be able to kill one player but at the same time I guess that one player is happy that they can have a better potential to survive multiple attackers.


So I can see the arguments on both sides of this.

StaticWave

Bushido2513 wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

So I finally encountered a random 1v1 with a relatively strong experienced mag sorc player in the wilds of Cyro yesterday NA prime time. We dueled 10 minutes before being interrupted by zergers. .

ESO is definitely play as you want but I think people need to always remember that how you want to play just may not be supported.

Lots of duels can end this way even if you switch out the classes and as I've already said and agreed, ward is overtuned for duels which isn't really supported. The gameplay that interrupted your duel is what I would argue is the intended gameplay.


I'm not really a big fan of having to basically group up just to be able to kill one player but at the same time I guess that one player is happy that they can have a better potential to survive multiple attackers.


So I can see the arguments on both sides of this.

I think Streak should be nerfed if people want Hardened Ward to stay the way it is. Gotta pick one or the other.

xylena_lazarow

StaticWave wrote: »

I think Streak should be nerfed if people want Hardened Ward to stay the way it is. Gotta pick one or the other.

Screw it. Nuke the whole class system. Let everyone pick every skill, your class is now what color it glows.

RomanRex

Played all weekend. Cyro and BG’s. 100% didn’t see any overturned sorcs.

Between the complaints about necros here and wanting nerfs to other skills in the toolkit (ie, streak), it’s obvious that this is a sour grapes post that just won’t go away.

Only 3-4 people here are repeatedly advocating for the ward change being adjusted. As many are making equally valid of arguments for the opposite. Stop trying to make fetch happen. It’s not going to happen.

Joy_Division

Bushido2513 wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

make the other team have more wardens

Great now nobody dies on any team. This is why 1v1 is still relevant and often shows things more clearly. It removes obfuscating factors such as team skill, cross healing, and dedicated supports.

But here's the thing, 1v1 is what percentage of pvp? Cyro, IC, and BGs are where you get most of your action and anyone knows you're lucky to get a 1v1 and have it stay a 1v1.

The game is clearly oriented towards battles with any number of opponents on the regular.

In this game it's much easier and more common to have battles that grow in opponents vs shrink in opponents. This is why we have things like battle markers that show where the fight is and now callouts to let you see in chat who is killing who.

They want you to fight in groups!


This is not to say that there aren't a lot of problems with group fights because there are but that's really the only place you will get balance changes if any.

In 1v1 the shield is clearly very powerful but in gvg I've seen it be dominant and also be not more powerful than many other things.

Group v Group is the only balance ZOS is using so while I see the points of others I'm going to say we can't ignore this as well.

It's hard to follow your train of thought in this thread, but it seems to boil down to you basically acknowledging the sorc changes made them strong, potnetially oppressively so in certain situations, but becuase some other specs are also strong or those situations like 1v1 dont happen to often, it's fine.

I would agree 1v1s dont happen often, but more so than you think and *that is precisely when you know either your class, your build, or just you* is lower tier. It's very noticeable and there aren't any excuses.

When the great 1v1 class also is the great at 1vX and is also great at escaping from 1vZerg and is also great in groups bc/ negates and healing versatility and is also great in small scale and also has a low skill threshold bc/ its skills are beginner friendly and has an archtype that is very forgiving (ranged damage, instant escape, on demand, immediate defense), then the question naturally arises: what exactly is the weakness of the class? It's not clear there is one.

I could live with the level of power sorcs have, but the class kit is so user friendly that even average players are reallly strong on that spec. That the class has so many accessible points of strength by stacking a single stat is frustrating to compete against, especially when your own class is potentially strong, but has real weaknessness and sacrfices that have to go into their builds.

xylena_lazarow

RomanRex wrote: »

Only 3-4 people here are repeatedly advocating for the ward change being adjusted. As many are making equally valid of arguments for the opposite. Stop trying to make fetch happen. It’s not going to happen.

MtG memes are leaking O_o

read my CMX post again, sorcs are hardly unkillable, but not before the funny button carries their survival harder than anything else in the game, the only other thing doing near this is polar on 45k+ hp warden HEALERS not RANGED NUKES

also range vs melee is not cosmetic, they should absolutely never have the same healing or damage potential

Jsmalls

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

So I finally encountered a random 1v1 with a relatively strong experienced mag sorc player in the wilds of Cyro yesterday NA prime time. We dueled 10 minutes before being interrupted by zergers. The sorc was on his back foot the entire time with low chance to win, but was tanking 5k duel dps with 1 button + passives while managing to throw around enough 11k frags and 8k curses to still threaten a combo kill and prevent me from going full offensive and finishing him off.

Below is my dps in the fight, if not for the zerger interruption it should've been over 5k. I run a 32k hp open world mdw dot arc with high mobility and sustain, not a full dueling build. For open world builds, above 4k dps is "good" and will win the majority of 1v1s against other damage builds. Probably would've won if I didn't go potato and forget to re-slot Bastion.


Next is how the sorc player did on damage while healing 5k hps with 1 button + passives. The sorc obviously wasn't able to pressure me, but with those numbers, damage spikes were still very threatening, and the player knew what he was doing on the class, frequently forcing me to deal with Streak-Overload combos. Wasn't someone else ITT making a big deal about high hp warden supports with 5k hps? Uhh this is a fast mobile RANGED NUKE doing 5k hps. With 1 button.


For power scaling context, here's how I do in sweaty high MMR deathmatch on my 32k hp arc. Relatively mid power lobby last Saturday afternoon, all random, a few strong ones and many familiar names, my team was 3 the whole match, 9-0-22.


So yea, it would be one thing for a tanky melee DK with Coag and layers of hots to absorb 5k duel dps, for a full damage mobile ranged nuke sorc to do that is already insane, to do it just with passives and literal 1 button spam? Lol. Lmao.

@xylena_lazarow

So are you saying you can't handle 4-5k DPS on your setup right? Because if you could AND deal 5k DPS that wouldn't be balanced right?

That whole post looks like a, if I can do it its fine, but if someone else does it it's overpowered. You were saying they were a strong Mag Sorc right? Do you want him to not be able to compete and just fold when you go to attack him, would that make you feel better?

And idk his setup, if he had Chudan or not but guarantee he wasn't tanking with ONE button. And was likely cycling Surge, Ward, dark conversion (for sustain), and hurricane (if running Chudan that's fine he's trading a monster set for one less gcd and more bar space). AND he was likely using streak defensively.

If he sat there spamming Ward every gcd the entire fight he'd run out of magicka because no one is sustaining 3500 Magicka a second for 10 minutes (unless they have all recovery and low damage).

So what's the problem here exactly? From reading your post I see a Mag Sorc unable to go offensive due to high DPS and turtling to not die (every class can do it). And you were upset because you didn't get a kill?

And to top it off you had a BGs match where you didn't die and you said there were other good players, soooo Nerf Arcanist healing too right? Cuz clearly if you can have good damage and be tanky it's broken. Or no... It's cuz you're a great player so that makes it okay. But I had a no death in a match that was with mostly mediocre players and it's #NerfWard. The hypocrisy is crazy.

That's my issue with this thread. High damage and tanky setups exist already. That's not new to this game.

"I run a 32k hp open world mdw dot arc with high mobility and sustain, not a full dueling build."

So it's cool to have high mobility and be tanky, cool case settled, /thread.

Zabagad

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

So I finally encountered a random 1v1 with a relatively strong experienced mag sorc player in the wilds of Cyro yesterday NA prime time. We dueled 10 minutes before being interrupted by zergers. The sorc was on his back foot the entire time with low chance to win, but was tanking 5k duel dps with 1 button + passives while managing to throw around enough 11k frags and 8k curses to still threaten a combo kill and prevent me from going full offensive and finishing him off.

Below is my dps in the fight, if not for the zerger interruption it should've been over 5k. I run a 32k hp open world mdw dot arc with high mobility and sustain, not a full dueling build. For open world builds, above 4k dps is "good" and will win the majority of 1v1s against other damage builds. Probably would've won if I didn't go potato and forget to re-slot Bastion.
[...]
The sorc obviously wasn't able to pressure me, but with those numbers, damage spikes were still very threatening, and the player knew what he was doing on the class, frequently forcing me to deal with Streak-Overload combos.

So you say "a full damage mobile ranged nuke sorc" who was strong experienced had a "low chance to win" and you on your arc with "high mobility and sustain" were not able to kill him.
And that maybe only because you "forget to re-slot Bastion."?

So a full damage(!) experienced sorc had no chance to kill you, but you call it OP because you couldn't kill him too?

I just try to think, what the sorc maybe thought
I'm a pretty exp and strong magSorc and even I was on a full damage build I had no chance to get this OP arc under pressure and was the hole time on may back foot. He made so much pressure with his cancer dot-build and arcs defence is so strong that he could do that with even 32K health. And he had high mobility too.
Lol. Lmao.

xylena_lazarow

Zabagad wrote: »

So a full damage(!) experienced sorc had no chance to kill you, but you call it OP because you couldn't kill him too?

ranged sorc stalemates a melee arc

melee arc active healing = Impervious + Vigor + multiple applied hots

ranged sorc active healing = Ward

Ward = Impervious + Vigor + multiple hots

Bushido2513

StaticWave wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

So I finally encountered a random 1v1 with a relatively strong experienced mag sorc player in the wilds of Cyro yesterday NA prime time. We dueled 10 minutes before being interrupted by zergers. .

ESO is definitely play as you want but I think people need to always remember that how you want to play just may not be supported.

Lots of duels can end this way even if you switch out the classes and as I've already said and agreed, ward is overtuned for duels which isn't really supported. The gameplay that interrupted your duel is what I would argue is the intended gameplay.


I'm not really a big fan of having to basically group up just to be able to kill one player but at the same time I guess that one player is happy that they can have a better potential to survive multiple attackers.


So I can see the arguments on both sides of this.

I think Streak should be nerfed if people want Hardened Ward to stay the way it is. Gotta pick one or the other.

Already has been through movement speed though. Had an Arcanist easily chase me down the other day like it was nothing.

I said earlier the they can completely take the heal back if they bring streak back up in power level by reducing all the easily available movement speed.

I don't believe has been really touched in all these years even though people have repeatedly gained more access to movement speed without much penalty.

xylena_lazarow

Jsmalls wrote: »

And idk his setup, if he had Chudan or not but guarantee he wasn't tanking with ONE button. And was likely cycling Surge, Ward, dark conversion (for sustain), and hurricane (if running Chudan that's fine he's trading a monster set for one less gcd and more bar space). AND he was likely using streak defensively.

everyone has to cycle buffs, I use Quick Cloak like the sorc uses Streak, yes the sorc had Chudan

this is purely about the resources actively devoted during combat to your hp bar, see above

gcds, mag or stam, timer upkeep, opportunity cost... not trivial

1 button vs 4 buttons

and no I can't tank 5k I need to outrace it

StaticWave

RomanRex wrote: »

Played all weekend. Cyro and BG’s. 100% didn’t see any overturned sorcs.

Between the complaints about necros here and wanting nerfs to other skills in the toolkit (ie, streak), it’s obvious that this is a sour grapes post that just won’t go away.

Only 3-4 people here are repeatedly advocating for the ward change being adjusted. As many are making equally valid of arguments for the opposite. Stop trying to make fetch happen. It’s not going to happen.

There are more people who think ward should be nerfed. They aren’t on the forums. I hope you understand that at least

StaticWave

Joy_Division wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

make the other team have more wardens

Great now nobody dies on any team. This is why 1v1 is still relevant and often shows things more clearly. It removes obfuscating factors such as team skill, cross healing, and dedicated supports.

But here's the thing, 1v1 is what percentage of pvp? Cyro, IC, and BGs are where you get most of your action and anyone knows you're lucky to get a 1v1 and have it stay a 1v1.

The game is clearly oriented towards battles with any number of opponents on the regular.

In this game it's much easier and more common to have battles that grow in opponents vs shrink in opponents. This is why we have things like battle markers that show where the fight is and now callouts to let you see in chat who is killing who.

They want you to fight in groups!


This is not to say that there aren't a lot of problems with group fights because there are but that's really the only place you will get balance changes if any.

In 1v1 the shield is clearly very powerful but in gvg I've seen it be dominant and also be not more powerful than many other things.

Group v Group is the only balance ZOS is using so while I see the points of others I'm going to say we can't ignore this as well.

It's hard to follow your train of thought in this thread, but it seems to boil down to you basically acknowledging the sorc changes made them strong, potnetially oppressively so in certain situations, but becuase some other specs are also strong or those situations like 1v1 dont happen to often, it's fine.

I would agree 1v1s dont happen often, but more so than you think and *that is precisely when you know either your class, your build, or just you* is lower tier. It's very noticeable and there aren't any excuses.

When the great 1v1 class also is the great at 1vX and is also great at escaping from 1vZerg and is also great in groups bc/ negates and healing versatility and is also great in small scale and also has a low skill threshold bc/ its skills are beginner friendly and has an archtype that is very forgiving (ranged damage, instant escape, on demand, immediate defense), then the question naturally arises: what exactly is the weakness of the class? It's not clear there is one.

I could live with the level of power sorcs have, but the class kit is so user friendly that even average players are reallly strong on that spec. That the class has so many accessible points of strength by stacking a single stat is frustrating to compete against, especially when your own class is potentially strong, but has real weaknessness and sacrfices that have to go into their builds.

They don’t understand. I doubt most of them even grasp the concept of GCD efficiency, bar space efficiency, stat density, and trade offs.

It’s even easier to see their lack of understanding when they deny the importance of 1v1, where uncontrolled variables are removed, and it’s just your class vs another. The things I mentioned above become quite apparent.

StaticWave

Bushido2513 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

So I finally encountered a random 1v1 with a relatively strong experienced mag sorc player in the wilds of Cyro yesterday NA prime time. We dueled 10 minutes before being interrupted by zergers. .

ESO is definitely play as you want but I think people need to always remember that how you want to play just may not be supported.

Lots of duels can end this way even if you switch out the classes and as I've already said and agreed, ward is overtuned for duels which isn't really supported. The gameplay that interrupted your duel is what I would argue is the intended gameplay.


I'm not really a big fan of having to basically group up just to be able to kill one player but at the same time I guess that one player is happy that they can have a better potential to survive multiple attackers.


So I can see the arguments on both sides of this.

I think Streak should be nerfed if people want Hardened Ward to stay the way it is. Gotta pick one or the other.

Already has been through movement speed though. Had an Arcanist easily chase me down the other day like it was nothing.

I said earlier the they can completely take the heal back if they bring streak back up in power level by reducing all the easily available movement speed.

I don't believe has been really touched in all these years even though people have repeatedly gained more access to movement speed without much penalty.

I was also one of the people advocating for the removal of universal sources of speed.

That isn’t happening, and Ward got buffed, and apparently some ppl don’t want Ward reverted. So the only sensible and objective thing to do is to nerf Streak. After all, speed is universally accessible right?

StaticWave

RomanRex wrote: »

Played all weekend. Cyro and BG’s. 100% didn’t see any overturned sorcs.

Between the complaints about necros here and wanting nerfs to other skills in the toolkit (ie, streak), it’s obvious that this is a sour grapes post that just won’t go away.

Only 3-4 people here are repeatedly advocating for the ward change being adjusted. As many are making equally valid of arguments for the opposite. Stop trying to make fetch happen. It’s not going to happen.

Using your logic, NB isn’t overtuned too because I can kill a lot of them in Cyro. Let’s not nerf NB then.

Bushido2513

Joy_Division wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

make the other team have more wardens

Great now nobody dies on any team. This is why 1v1 is still relevant and often shows things more clearly. It removes obfuscating factors such as team skill, cross healing, and dedicated supports.

But here's the thing, 1v1 is what percentage of pvp? Cyro, IC, and BGs are where you get most of your action and anyone knows you're lucky to get a 1v1 and have it stay a 1v1.

The game is clearly oriented towards battles with any number of opponents on the regular.

In this game it's much easier and more common to have battles that grow in opponents vs shrink in opponents. This is why we have things like battle markers that show where the fight is and now callouts to let you see in chat who is killing who.

They want you to fight in groups!


This is not to say that there aren't a lot of problems with group fights because there are but that's really the only place you will get balance changes if any.

In 1v1 the shield is clearly very powerful but in gvg I've seen it be dominant and also be not more powerful than many other things.

Group v Group is the only balance ZOS is using so while I see the points of others I'm going to say we can't ignore this as well.

It's hard to follow your train of thought in this thread, but it seems to boil down to you basically acknowledging the sorc changes made them strong, potnetially oppressively so in certain situations, but becuase some other specs are also strong or those situations like 1v1 dont happen to often, it's fine.

I would agree 1v1s dont happen often, but more so than you think and *that is precisely when you know either your class, your build, or just you* is lower tier. It's very noticeable and there aren't any excuses.

When the great 1v1 class also is the great at 1vX and is also great at escaping from 1vZerg and is also great in groups bc/ negates and healing versatility and is also great in small scale and also has a low skill threshold bc/ its skills are beginner friendly and has an archtype that is very forgiving (ranged damage, instant escape, on demand, immediate defense), then the question naturally arises: what exactly is the weakness of the class? It's not clear there is one.

I could live with the level of power sorcs have, but the class kit is so user friendly that even average players are reallly strong on that spec. That the class has so many accessible points of strength by stacking a single stat is frustrating to compete against, especially when your own class is potentially strong, but has real weaknessness and sacrfices that have to go into their builds.

1v1s happen all the time but are also always interrupted in open world. So I'm not going to really give them much focus being that they can only really happen with consistency in duels. The ESO dueling community is there but not really that large or even a large draw of the game as a whole.

I'll just say that overall I think sorc is now as offer friendly as other classes that offer their own flavor of imbalance.

I also believe the top classes do and don't have weaknesses just depending on who's playing. There's no way to be exactly clear on this and instead I think we just need accumulated feedback over time.

Bushido2513

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

RomanRex wrote: »

Only 3-4 people here are repeatedly advocating for the ward change being adjusted. As many are making equally valid of arguments for the opposite. Stop trying to make fetch happen. It’s not going to happen.

MtG memes are leaking O_o

read my CMX post again, sorcs are hardly unkillable, but not before the funny button carries their survival harder than anything else in the game, the only other thing doing near this is polar on 45k+ hp warden HEALERS not RANGED NUKES

also range vs melee is not cosmetic, they should absolutely never have the same healing or damage potential

That's great until we realize the ranged nuke is being shutdown by said Warden. I think there are a few ways that will naturally discourage sorcs from getting too out of hand at this point.

I've seen time and time again where high damage can be easily nullified. The game currently has some pretty high damage but it also has pretty high mitigation and this is where I believe group play and tactics come in to act as a filler/mask for the balance issues that are rampant in the game.

StaticWave

StaticWave wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

So I finally encountered a random 1v1 with a relatively strong experienced mag sorc player in the wilds of Cyro yesterday NA prime time. We dueled 10 minutes before being interrupted by zergers. .

ESO is definitely play as you want but I think people need to always remember that how you want to play just may not be supported.

Lots of duels can end this way even if you switch out the classes and as I've already said and agreed, ward is overtuned for duels which isn't really supported. The gameplay that interrupted your duel is what I would argue is the intended gameplay.


I'm not really a big fan of having to basically group up just to be able to kill one player but at the same time I guess that one player is happy that they can have a better potential to survive multiple attackers.


So I can see the arguments on both sides of this.

I think Streak should be nerfed if people want Hardened Ward to stay the way it is. Gotta pick one or the other.

Already has been through movement speed though. Had an Arcanist easily chase me down the other day like it was nothing.

I said earlier the they can completely take the heal back if they bring streak back up in power level by reducing all the easily available movement speed.

I don't believe has been really touched in all these years even though people have repeatedly gained more access to movement speed without much penalty.

I was also one of the people advocating for the removal of universal sources of speed.

That isn’t happening, and Ward got buffed, and apparently some ppl don’t want Ward reverted. So the only sensible and objective thing to do is to nerf Streak. After all, speed is universally accessible right?

Watch as some people will try to argue that Streak shouldn’t be nerfed while Ward also isn’t 🤣🤣

Bushido2513

StaticWave wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

So I finally encountered a random 1v1 with a relatively strong experienced mag sorc player in the wilds of Cyro yesterday NA prime time. We dueled 10 minutes before being interrupted by zergers. .

ESO is definitely play as you want but I think people need to always remember that how you want to play just may not be supported.

Lots of duels can end this way even if you switch out the classes and as I've already said and agreed, ward is overtuned for duels which isn't really supported. The gameplay that interrupted your duel is what I would argue is the intended gameplay.


I'm not really a big fan of having to basically group up just to be able to kill one player but at the same time I guess that one player is happy that they can have a better potential to survive multiple attackers.


So I can see the arguments on both sides of this.

I think Streak should be nerfed if people want Hardened Ward to stay the way it is. Gotta pick one or the other.

Already has been through movement speed though. Had an Arcanist easily chase me down the other day like it was nothing.

I said earlier the they can completely take the heal back if they bring streak back up in power level by reducing all the easily available movement speed.

I don't believe has been really touched in all these years even though people have repeatedly gained more access to movement speed without much penalty.

I was also one of the people advocating for the removal of universal sources of speed.

That isn’t happening, and Ward got buffed, and apparently some ppl don’t want Ward reverted. So the only sensible and objective thing to do is to nerf Streak. After all, speed is universally accessible right?

Watch as some people will try to argue that Streak shouldn’t be nerfed while Ward also isn’t 🤣🤣

I think the argument could be made for almost all classes that something should have been nerfed when it got xyz buff but that hasn't happened either.

I think people might not feel as justified in this buff if these other classes hadn't been buffed multiple times over in spite of feedback, that class not asking for or seeming to need another buff, etc

xylena_lazarow

Bushido2513 wrote: »

that class not asking for or seeming to need another buff, etc

GIVE CLOAK TO DK

Bushido2513

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

that class not asking for or seeming to need another buff, etc

GIVE CLOAK TO DK

So for me while a shielded opponent with ranged damage isn't a big deal I'd actually say this would be pretty annoying.


But I think that's the bigger point of this thread is how many people will ultimately enjoy or be bothered by this change, especially as it's now about to make it to all platforms.

Bushido2513

StaticWave wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

So I finally encountered a random 1v1 with a relatively strong experienced mag sorc player in the wilds of Cyro yesterday NA prime time. We dueled 10 minutes before being interrupted by zergers. .

ESO is definitely play as you want but I think people need to always remember that how you want to play just may not be supported.

Lots of duels can end this way even if you switch out the classes and as I've already said and agreed, ward is overtuned for duels which isn't really supported. The gameplay that interrupted your duel is what I would argue is the intended gameplay.


I'm not really a big fan of having to basically group up just to be able to kill one player but at the same time I guess that one player is happy that they can have a better potential to survive multiple attackers.


So I can see the arguments on both sides of this.

I think Streak should be nerfed if people want Hardened Ward to stay the way it is. Gotta pick one or the other.

Already has been through movement speed though. Had an Arcanist easily chase me down the other day like it was nothing.

I said earlier the they can completely take the heal back if they bring streak back up in power level by reducing all the easily available movement speed.

I don't believe has been really touched in all these years even though people have repeatedly gained more access to movement speed without much penalty.

I was also one of the people advocating for the removal of universal sources of speed.

That isn’t happening, and Ward got buffed, and apparently some ppl don’t want Ward reverted. So the only sensible and objective thing to do is to nerf Streak. After all, speed is universally accessible right?

Correct it's universal but as a sorc you lose more damage than other top tier classes when you try to add speed. It's still playable to some degree but you really feel the difference.

Miracle19

Jsmalls wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

So I finally encountered a random 1v1 with a relatively strong experienced mag sorc player in the wilds of Cyro yesterday NA prime time. We dueled 10 minutes before being interrupted by zergers. The sorc was on his back foot the entire time with low chance to win, but was tanking 5k duel dps with 1 button + passives while managing to throw around enough 11k frags and 8k curses to still threaten a combo kill and prevent me from going full offensive and finishing him off.

Below is my dps in the fight, if not for the zerger interruption it should've been over 5k. I run a 32k hp open world mdw dot arc with high mobility and sustain, not a full dueling build. For open world builds, above 4k dps is "good" and will win the majority of 1v1s against other damage builds. Probably would've won if I didn't go potato and forget to re-slot Bastion.


Next is how the sorc player did on damage while healing 5k hps with 1 button + passives. The sorc obviously wasn't able to pressure me, but with those numbers, damage spikes were still very threatening, and the player knew what he was doing on the class, frequently forcing me to deal with Streak-Overload combos. Wasn't someone else ITT making a big deal about high hp warden supports with 5k hps? Uhh this is a fast mobile RANGED NUKE doing 5k hps. With 1 button.


For power scaling context, here's how I do in sweaty high MMR deathmatch on my 32k hp arc. Relatively mid power lobby last Saturday afternoon, all random, a few strong ones and many familiar names, my team was 3 the whole match, 9-0-22.


So yea, it would be one thing for a tanky melee DK with Coag and layers of hots to absorb 5k duel dps, for a full damage mobile ranged nuke sorc to do that is already insane, to do it just with passives and literal 1 button spam? Lol. Lmao.

@xylena_lazarow

So are you saying you can't handle 4-5k DPS on your setup right? Because if you could AND deal 5k DPS that wouldn't be balanced right?

That whole post looks like a, if I can do it its fine, but if someone else does it it's overpowered. You were saying they were a strong Mag Sorc right? Do you want him to not be able to compete and just fold when you go to attack him, would that make you feel better?

And idk his setup, if he had Chudan or not but guarantee he wasn't tanking with ONE button. And was likely cycling Surge, Ward, dark conversion (for sustain), and hurricane (if running Chudan that's fine he's trading a monster set for one less gcd and more bar space). AND he was likely using streak defensively.

If he sat there spamming Ward every gcd the entire fight he'd run out of magicka because no one is sustaining 3500 Magicka a second for 10 minutes (unless they have all recovery and low damage).

So what's the problem here exactly? From reading your post I see a Mag Sorc unable to go offensive due to high DPS and turtling to not die (every class can do it). And you were upset because you didn't get a kill?

And to top it off you had a BGs match where you didn't die and you said there were other good players, soooo Nerf Arcanist healing too right? Cuz clearly if you can have good damage and be tanky it's broken. Or no... It's cuz you're a great player so that makes it okay. But I had a no death in a match that was with mostly mediocre players and it's #NerfWard. The hypocrisy is crazy.

That's my issue with this thread. High damage and tanky setups exist already. That's not new to this game.

"I run a 32k hp open world mdw dot arc with high mobility and sustain, not a full dueling build."

So it's cool to have high mobility and be tanky, cool case settled, /thread.

I don’t think you understand. 5k dps isn’t ward every GCD. ward is 12-14k shield. So it’s every 2-3gcd. Easily sustainable, can make pancakes and even heavy attack in between.

The problem isn’t that sorc is tanky, it’s simply overtuned. It’s the single strongest self heal/shield ability in the game by a long shot with NO proc conditions. At a minimum, the heal needs to be adjusted. Also happens to be one of the highest burst classes due to delayed damage combos and the highest mobility class. See the issue?

Tinkerhorn

It is overtuned and it's unhealthy for the game. Having such tankiness on a class with great mobility and solid ranged damage is just bad form in terms of balancing.
I appreciate magsorcs were not in a good spot for the most part before the update but it has swung too far the other way.
I wasn't initially going to comment and just see how it progresses until the next update but with the huge uptake in sorcs rather than the population plateuing after an initial spike, it's causing a lot of unenjoyable engagements and they've become the most common.
I don't much care for 1v1's or smallscale as 95% of those I played with have already quit the game. I just want to log in, have a couple of hours fun and log out but Sorcs, nightblades, and supertanks seem to be the name of the zerging game now. Difference is most nbs are fairly easy to kill or scare off, and most highly tanky players including dks and wardens are fairly impotent outside of their damage windows for the most part. Sorcs are packing a lot of damage for their survivability and manoeuvrability. The class changes has elevated a lot of players even though they're brand new to sorc. I'd rather fight a zerg of permacloaking nbs.
At the end of the day a game should set out achieving enjoyment and this certainly is not it. U41 proving to be another awful update as pointed out during the PTS. Just my two cents. Also lag is a lot worse exacerbating the experience.