Hardened Ward heal making it to live is a mistake and needs to be changed

Jsmalls · March 22

Which is a defensive tank and healing set.... So how does that have to do with class balance and tanking on full damage sets?

Just feel like the consensus was that full damage Mag Sorcs tanking significant damage was a problem.

But he was using an out of class heal (disregarding the extra armor) in combination with what the class offers and saying it's OP that he didn't die...

Let's try to stay on point. Every class rocking a defensive set that synergizes with their class (Almalexia scales well with Max Stat) is going to be hard to take down... So that video really tells us nothing...

That being said Really awesome set choice, I breezed over that set never giving it much thought but with the max stat changes that's probably an awesome proc set for one of your bars.

StaticWave · March 22

Jsmalls wrote: »

Which is a defensive tank and healing set.... So how does that have to do with class balance and tanking on full damage sets?

Because he plays BG and Almalexia with mag stacking is a decent combination to get some cross heals on Sorc.

As you could see in the vid, he did eventually drop it and noticed zero survivability issues.

Miracle19 · March 22

Jsmalls wrote: »

@IncultaWolf
@StaticWave

I actually also played BGs a lot yesterday, 5-7 matches, was in Rallying Cry and SPC for most matches.

May have had a match where I didn't die but I play Very aggressively and had PLENTY of deaths.

Most notably a Proc Blade with tarnished and anthelmirs from stealth with Incap that would appear during a fight and hit me for 20k+. He probably got me 5 times that match.

Then id have a 2-3 man turn and focus me and put me down pretty often.

All in all the floor was brought up, but in No CP battlegrounds without Bastion... Ward does not feel completely out of place. 11.5k ward with roughly a 4k heal. Nothing too crazy there.

One thing that was consistent was I was the top damage dealer every match I played (all but one where a 40k health Arcanist did 2.5 million and went 9/1, I was that 1 ). Averaged 1.5 - 2 million for the longer matches.

Also what's with the healing numbers on most of your matches? You had 150k, 427k, 149k, 120k.
Using only ward and crit surge you should have no group healing at all.... So something is off about that, unless it's something I'm not thinking of, don't think group synergies would do that much.

Im also assuming this was Solo Que? I wouldn't put High MMR and Solo Que in the same sentence. You get a CRAZY variety in solo que, and assuming he picked out games he didn't die to post....

To be fair, your experience is maybe due to your build. I played a lot of BGs and some with you in there and your duo partner, and I didn’t die a single time, mostly due to the shield changes.

What @StaticWave is trying to say, is that Sorc with the changes is the ONLY class in ESO that can build pure damage, no defense, such as HP or resist and be tanky enough to tank 6k dps along with its insane mobility. 6k dps usually requires 30k resist minimum, with a lot of hots and burst healing. That requires sacrificing damage on every other class.

IncultaWolf · March 22

Jsmalls wrote: »

Which is a defensive tank and healing set.... So how does that have to do with class balance and tanking on full damage sets?

Just feel like the consensus was that full damage Mag Sorcs tanking significant damage was a problem.

But he was using an out of class heal (disregarding the extra armor) in combination with what the class offers and saying it's OP that he didn't die...

Let's try to stay on point. Every class rocking a defensive set that synergizes with their class (Almalexia scales well with Max Stat) is going to be hard to take down... So that video really tells us nothing...

That being said Really awesome set choice, I breezed over that set never giving it much thought but with the max stat changes that's probably an awesome proc set for one of your bars.

In the video I didn't have almalexia. I was just in two damage sets with death dealer mythic. Was trying different setups to get a feel for magsorc. Some of those scoreboards I was running almalexia and that set alone was healing teammates for a lot.

IncultaWolf · March 22

Miracle19 wrote: »

Jsmalls wrote: »

@IncultaWolf
@StaticWave

I actually also played BGs a lot yesterday, 5-7 matches, was in Rallying Cry and SPC for most matches.

May have had a match where I didn't die but I play Very aggressively and had PLENTY of deaths.

Most notably a Proc Blade with tarnished and anthelmirs from stealth with Incap that would appear during a fight and hit me for 20k+. He probably got me 5 times that match.

Then id have a 2-3 man turn and focus me and put me down pretty often.

All in all the floor was brought up, but in No CP battlegrounds without Bastion... Ward does not feel completely out of place. 11.5k ward with roughly a 4k heal. Nothing too crazy there.

One thing that was consistent was I was the top damage dealer every match I played (all but one where a 40k health Arcanist did 2.5 million and went 9/1, I was that 1 ). Averaged 1.5 - 2 million for the longer matches.

Also what's with the healing numbers on most of your matches? You had 150k, 427k, 149k, 120k.
Using only ward and crit surge you should have no group healing at all.... So something is off about that, unless it's something I'm not thinking of, don't think group synergies would do that much.

Im also assuming this was Solo Que? I wouldn't put High MMR and Solo Que in the same sentence. You get a CRAZY variety in solo que, and assuming he picked out games he didn't die to post....

To be fair, your experience is maybe due to your build. I played a lot of BGs and some with you in there as your duo partner, and I didn’t die a single time, mostly due to the shield changes.

What @StaticWave is trying to say, is that Sorc with the changes is the ONLY class in ESO that can build pure damage, no defense, such as HP or resist and be tanky enough to tank 6k dps along with its insane mobility. 6k dps usually requires 30k resist minimum, with a lot of hots and burst healing. That requires sacrificing damage on every other class.

THIS is what we keep trying to explain, idk why it's so hard to understand. Sorcerer is the only class that can do this. I just want there to be fair balance. As a necromancer main, my class literally has nothing. Seeing this hardened ward on a full damage spec with less than 30k HP.. I wish some other classes could do that. Hell I still want necro to have a basic buff like major brutality. It's ridiculous.

StaticWave · March 23

Miracle19 wrote: »

6k dps usually requires 30k resist minimum, with a lot of hots and burst healing. That requires sacrificing damage on every other class.

Right. Meanwhile a Sorc runs full divines with 26-27k HP and <25k armor can still tank 6k DPS because 15-16k ward 🤣

Bushido2513 · March 23

StaticWave wrote: »

Miracle19 wrote: »

6k dps usually requires 30k resist minimum, with a lot of hots and burst healing. That requires sacrificing damage on every other class.

Right. Meanwhile a Sorc runs full divines with 26-27k HP and <25k armor can still tank 6k DPS because 15-16k ward 🤣

At this point it's like trying to catch Bigfoot. Do you at least have a grainy photo or video of this sorc in open world doing anything interesting?

At least with tanky Arcanist we at least get to see it being tanky

StaticWave · March 23

Bushido2513 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Miracle19 wrote: »

6k dps usually requires 30k resist minimum, with a lot of hots and burst healing. That requires sacrificing damage on every other class.

Right. Meanwhile a Sorc runs full divines with 26-27k HP and <25k armor can still tank 6k DPS because 15-16k ward 🤣

At this point it's like trying to catch Bigfoot. Do you at least have a grainy photo or video of this sorc in open world doing anything interesting?

At least with tanky Arcanist we at least get to see it being tanky

I could ask my friends. My 300 ping would impact the accuracy of the test, although it could also be a factor to determine whether Ward is overperforming or not. I'll try to get my own video when I can

StaticWave · March 23

@Bushido2513 @IncultaWolf @xylena_lazarow @Miracle19 @taugrim
Okay so I'm just going to post this video here and call it a day. Interpret it however you want, but I don't think I can get a clearer example than this.

https://youtu.be/ABK3pFuzYMY

I just happened to run into @Jsmalls and Skoomah in a BG game. They targeted me of course, and I died a lot. I was in a melee 2h build with Essence Thief/Rallying Cry/DDF/Balorgh. I had 38k HP, 3.5k crit resist, 27k resistances, 24k max stam and 21k max mag with around 1.5k regen for both. Nothing out of ordinary.

@Jsmalls on the other hand, was in a 24k HP build with Hrothgar's Chilled, probably Wild Hunt since his HP doesn't increase during combat. If I have to guess it, the other set would be Rallying Cry, and maybe 1x Domi, 1x Swarm. He also had Hurricane, so probably nearly speed capped. I tried to replicate something similar on the Editor and got around 47k max mag in no CP.

Anyways, the point is, he was running around a BG game with several good players, while having 24k HP. Please keep that in mind. You will get 1 shotted in a 24k HP build, unless you have a 11-12k ward with a burst heal underneath. Even with 38k HP, 27k resist, 3.4k crit resist, and another shield on top, with just as much speed as he has, and I still can't sustain the shield enough when pressured, even if I relocate frequently. There were several occasions where I only targeted him through out the match and you could see how tanky he was compared to other players. You could also see how he healed up so fast with the shield too. He ended up scoring top kills and top damage that BG match.

You know what's funny? He even admitted shield is overperforming. So I think the discussion can end here. There's too much bias in this thread it's starting to get pretty lame when people clearly know it's broken but will pull out every excuse in the books to try defending it.

IncultaWolf · March 23

StaticWave wrote: »

@Bushido2513 @IncultaWolf @xylena_lazarow @Miracle19 @taugrim
Okay so I'm just going to post this video here and call it a day. Interpret it however you want, but I don't think I can get a clearer example than this.

https://youtu.be/ABK3pFuzYMY

I just happened to run into @Jsmalls and Skoomah in a BG game. They targeted me of course, and I died a lot. I was in a melee 2h build with Essence Thief/Rallying Cry/DDF/Balorgh. I had 38k HP, 3.5k crit resist, 27k resistances, 24k max stam and 21k max mag with around 1.5k regen for both. Nothing out of ordinary.

@Jsmalls on the other hand, was in a 24k HP build with Hrothgar's Chilled, probably Wild Hunt since his HP doesn't increase during combat. If I have to guess it, the other set would be Rallying Cry, and maybe 1x Domi, 1x Swarm. He also had Hurricane, so probably nearly speed capped. I tried to replicate something similar on the Editor and got around 47k max mag in no CP.

Anyways, the point is, he was running around a BG game with several good players, while having 24k HP. Please keep that in mind. You will get 1 shotted in a 24k HP build, unless you have a 11-12k ward with a burst heal underneath. Even with 38k HP, 27k resist, 3.4k crit resist, and another shield on top, with just as much speed as he has, and I still can't sustain the shield enough when pressured, even if I relocate frequently. There were several occasions where I only targeted him through out the match and you could see how tanky he was compared to other players. You could also see how he healed up so fast with the shield too. He ended up scoring top kills and top damage that BG match.

You know what's funny? He even admitted shield is overperforming. So I think the discussion can end here. Too much bias.

The fact that he was that tanky and got that score with 24k hp in a high mmr battleground says enough. This video you posted is more than enough evidence that hardened ward is overperforming. But the sorc mains here will keep defending their new overpowered ability no matter what evidence you provide them.

TheTruestKing · March 23

I think the shield and heal should scale off max resource regardless of health mag or stam. And they should buff it by another 25%. If no one can kill sorcs its a skill issue and just needs to learn how to pvp in this game. Put on shieldbreaker or cp passive. Or try gittin gud? Lol. Sorc gang!!! Gang gang!

Jsmalls · March 23

I have always admitted to the shield change being Overtuned you can see that from your original post on PTS on the first day we experienced it. But I don't think it's completely out of line with other current defenses.

For better context it's Crafty Alfiq, Hrothgar, Domi, swarm, Torc of Tonal, and back bar S&B 2x willpower with a magicka enchant, believe its 53k on my ward bar and ~25k health (and I've been running that low of health waaaay before this shield change). My ward bar is also S&B and has 31k spell resistance before the Breton passive bumps it to 33k (and something like 27k physical). So I do have 33k/27k resistances and all the sword and board passives when I'm trying to "turtle" up. But I watched the video and I didn't see myself face tanking anything. Anytime even a dawnbreaker touched me I dipped and relocated.

And that was NOT a high MMR match. You had twice the damage of your entire team combined, and the entire other team had just above what I did as a single player 950k to my 850k. And there were 3 Sorcs other than you and they were all extremely mediocre.

I really don't think this video says much of anything. Other than I walked over 7 average to below average players and kept my distance from you because I knew you were the only threat in the match.

StaticWave · March 23

Jsmalls wrote: »

I have always admitted to the shield change being Overtuned you can see that from your original post on PTS on the first day we experienced it. But I don't think it's completely out of line with other current defenses.

For better context it's Crafty Alfiq, Hrothgar, Domi, swarm, Torc of Tonal, and back bar S&B 2x willpower with a magicka enchant, believe its 53k on my ward bar and ~25k health (and I've been running that low of health waaaay before this shield change). My ward bar is also S&B and has 31k spell resistance before the Breton passive bumps it to 33k (and something like 27k physical). So I do have 33k/27k resistances and all the sword and board passives when I'm trying to "turtle" up. But I watched the video and I didn't see myself face tanking anything. Anytime even a dawnbreaker touched me I dipped and relocated.

And that was NOT a high MMR match. You had twice the damage of your entire team combined, and the entire other team had just above what I did as a single player 950k to my 850k. And there were 3 Sorcs other than you and they were all extremely mediocre.

I really don't think this video says much of anything. Other than I walked over 7 average to below average players and kept my distance from you because I knew you were the only threat in the match.

Lol, like I said, you will say anything to defend the shield, especially when we're discussing other PvP modes than 1v1s.

53k mag, Torc for mag and stam recov, 32k spell resist and 27k phys resist to make your ward super tanky, and Hurricane to keep the speed. You had higher resistances than me, a bigger shield, and a much larger mag pool to spam it while having decent regen. With good shield up time, you could tank damage no problem, like when I tried to 1v1 you and you just shrugged off the dmg like it's nothing. You also had no Vigor either.

It's the only class right now that can give up so much HP and benefit from it. Any class in that clip would have died when they get 3v1 like that. You kept the same mobility as a stamsorc with Streak and Hurricane, while having much more tankiness from shield spamming. I don't think you understand you proved my point lol.

xylena_lazarow · March 23

StaticWave wrote: »

It's the only class right now that can give up so much HP and benefit from it

Shield sorcs got nuked from the meta all those years ago because you had "tanks that do damage" with 16k hp and 60k max mag. Sure burst heals scale from offensive stats too, but not like this. Nobody is dropping their DK to 24k hp.

StaticWave · March 23

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

It's the only class right now that can give up so much HP and benefit from it

Shield sorcs got nuked from the meta all those years ago because you had "tanks that do damage" with 16k hp and 60k max mag. Sure burst heals scale from offensive stats too, but not like this. Nobody is dropping their DK to 24k hp.

Right? I told one of my guild mates “this feels like 2018 again”, and honestly it does. Back when Harness Magicka was broken, Sorc used to run in 13k HP with 55k-60k mag and would stack 2 shields to get 20-25k shields. They were super hard to kill and had enough sustain to kite forever and stay alive in melee combat.

This U41 Sorc is no different lol. I could even argue that U41 Sorc is better because U41 Hardened Ward is the same as old Hardened Ward + old Healing Ward.

xylena_lazarow · March 23

StaticWave wrote: »

I could even argue that U41 Sorc is better because U41 Hardened Ward is the same as old Hardened Ward + old Healing Ward.

At least back then they had to press 2 different buttons. Amazing how these forums whine for years over "carried by whatever" and "tanks that do damage" but can't understand that's exactly what Ward does because it's not on their death recaps. Can't imagine a bigger carry than having literal 1 button spam survival on a tanky ranged damage dealer.

Coag on DK doesn't do this, Impervious on arc doesn't do this, Polar Wind on Warden doesn't do this, Healthy Offering on NB doesn't do this... no proc set has ever done anything like this, not Mara's, not MDW, not Viper, not Sload's, not Caluurion's...

Jsmalls · March 23

StaticWave wrote: »

Jsmalls wrote: »

I have always admitted to the shield change being Overtuned you can see that from your original post on PTS on the first day we experienced it. But I don't think it's completely out of line with other current defenses.

For better context it's Crafty Alfiq, Hrothgar, Domi, swarm, Torc of Tonal, and back bar S&B 2x willpower with a magicka enchant, believe its 53k on my ward bar and ~25k health (and I've been running that low of health waaaay before this shield change). My ward bar is also S&B and has 31k spell resistance before the Breton passive bumps it to 33k (and something like 27k physical). So I do have 33k/27k resistances and all the sword and board passives when I'm trying to "turtle" up. But I watched the video and I didn't see myself face tanking anything. Anytime even a dawnbreaker touched me I dipped and relocated.

And that was NOT a high MMR match. You had twice the damage of your entire team combined, and the entire other team had just above what I did as a single player 950k to my 850k. And there were 3 Sorcs other than you and they were all extremely mediocre.

I really don't think this video says much of anything. Other than I walked over 7 average to below average players and kept my distance from you because I knew you were the only threat in the match.

Lol, like I said, you will say anything to defend the shield, especially when we're discussing other PvP modes than 1v1s.

It's the only class right now that can give up so much HP and benefit from it. Any class in that clip would have died when they get 3v1 like that. You kept the same mobility as a stamsorc with Streak and Hurricane, while having much more tankiness from shield spamming. I don't think you understand you proved my point lol.

I think you're over estimating your teammates in that game, two of your teammates had less than 50k damage throughout the whole match. So if at any point I "tanked" 3 players it was because 2 of them were just light attacking...

And you are melee range, I never let you stay within 7 meters of me for more than 5 seconds, I kited and weaved between teammates non-stop.

And let's clear this up to. I've been running the exact same way (I added Hrothgar / other test sets this patch because 53-55k magicka has been my threshold for a viable shield for a long time and you can hit that with just crafty now) for the past 6 years. Before and after the health cap "nerf" to shields in 2018. And I've been "viable" this whole time. I didn't all of a sudden become 'tanky" this update I've been just as hard to kill for quite some time. Has this change made my playstyle stronger? Absolutely.

I agree that having mobility (and an AoE stun that repositions you) and also being extremely tanky is not something good for balance.

But let's not pretend that a nightblade and other classes with RaT aren't doing the same thing... Movement speed has become so easy to get that streak and major / minor expedition plus base movement speed bonuses are equal. I have people chase me down ALL the time with ease now. It's only when there is obstacles to maneuver that I gain the mobility advantage (as you saw in your video).

xylena_lazarow · March 23

Jsmalls wrote: »

But let's not pretend that a nightblade and other classes with RaT aren't doing the same thing

no NB is surviving solely on Healthy Offering spam the way sorc survives solely on Ward spam

StaticWave · March 23

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

I could even argue that U41 Sorc is better because U41 Hardened Ward is the same as old Hardened Ward + old Healing Ward.

At least back then they had to press 2 different buttons. Amazing how these forums whine for years over "carried by whatever" and "tanks that do damage" but can't understand that's exactly what Ward does because it's not on their death recaps. Can't imagine a bigger carry than having literal 1 button spam survival on a tanky ranged damage dealer.

Coag on DK doesn't do this, Impervious on arc doesn't do this, Polar Wind on Warden doesn't do this, Healthy Offering on NB doesn't do this... no proc set has ever done anything like this, not Mara's, not MDW, not Viper, not Sload's, not Caluurion's...

They know it’s broken. They just don’t want it balanced. We can see it through their arguments when they say “other classes are tanky and haven’t been nerfed so why should Sorc”.

It’s rather disingenuous and dishonest tbh, especially when several of them have been asking for nerfs to other classes, but will go out of their way to find excuses for their class when it gets the OP treatment.

StaticWave · March 23

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Jsmalls wrote: »

But let's not pretend that a nightblade and other classes with RaT aren't doing the same thing

no NB is surviving solely on Healthy Offering spam the way sorc survives solely on Ward spam

Right??? It’s such absurd argument to make.

Nobody is denying that other classes can also have incredible survivability, but it requires stacking multiple HoTs with a burst heal, high resistances, movement speed, and still be at a certain HP level to survive a standard burst combo.

Then you have magSorc with Ward, and when under the hands of decent players like @Jsmalls, @MetallicMonk, etc, Sorc just looks so unfair compared to players of the same caliber on other classes.

I mean, just look at @Jsmalls’ build. His magsorc in No CP has 53k mag, 30k resistance, decent recovery with Torc, and decent movement speed from Hurricane. Even with only 24k HP, he can probably tank damage from multiple below average - average players, can still comfortably tank damage from a good player, and has the movement speed and resources to reposition when pressured by multiple good players. What are people going to do when he Streaks 5x in a row with decent movement speed to run away? NB definitely can’t survive that, and neither can Warden or any class in a full damage build, and definitely not with 24k HP lol.

TechMaybeHic · March 23

TBH; I see both points.

In Cyrodiil, it's the same guys that were always good on sorc that you never wanted to be caught in the open where they can unload on you and kite through you whenever you get close, or away to rocks if they get pressured. Only difference is trying to pull them in to tighter quarters and go toe to toes is no longer a risky proposition. You can debate those merits on whether they should be able to do that as well the same way you could a NB being as good as any brawler while still being able to cloak and shade. Probably should be tradeoffs; but it is a thing.

In 1 vs 1 with their damage and new defense; that's a problem. In a small scale in battlegrounds, especially without target focus; also a problem. In Cyrodiil where the shields can be down and they can take 25k damage from multiple players in the moment of trying to break free with 0 HOTs and/or high health and resists; not so much of a problem, but nor do I think it helps sorcs in a way they really need to push keeps and do anything other than kill fast and run as they always have. I comment often with guildies that the sorc rerolls will soon be back on their NBs

JanTanhide · March 23

Oblivion_Protocol wrote: »

I’m going to be totally honest here. I’ve mained MagSorc from the moment I started playing this game in 2020. At times, I’ve swapped to NB, DK, StamSorc, and even Templar. But I’ve always come back to MagSorc. So, I speak from the bottom of my heart when I say that I, for one, am glad to see MagSorcs getting the same broken treatment DKs and NBs have been getting for years. Frankly, I’m going to spam Hardened Ward to my heart’s content, survive nukes, and watch the hate whispers pile up while I still can.

Yep. I agree 100%.

Urzigurumash · March 23

Thing is MagSorc is permanent F Tier because all their skills can be blocked and dodged

Good players block all MagSorcs skills.

"Curse can't be blocked" you say

Well I've got bad news for you

xylena_lazarow · March 23

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Thing is MagSorc is permanent F Tier because all their skills can be blocked and dodged Good players block all MagSorcs skills. "Curse can't be blocked" you say Well I've got bad news for you

Is this a troll?

Urzigurumash · March 23

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Thing is MagSorc is permanent F Tier because all their skills can be blocked and dodged Good players block all MagSorcs skills. "Curse can't be blocked" you say Well I've got bad news for you

Is this a troll?

I'm a orc

Urzigurumash · March 23

Yes it was a joke. I'm just imparting some of the hard lessons I've learned on this forum.

Look I've never blocked Curse. And I've never played MagSorc.

What I have done, however, is accepted that I'm a bad player FOR THESE REASONS.

Bushido2513 · March 23

StaticWave wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Jsmalls wrote: »

But let's not pretend that a nightblade and other classes with RaT aren't doing the same thing

no NB is surviving solely on Healthy Offering spam the way sorc survives solely on Ward spam

Right??? It’s such absurd argument to make.

Nobody is denying that other classes can also have incredible survivability, but it requires stacking multiple HoTs with a burst heal, high resistances, movement speed, and still be at a certain HP level to survive a standard burst combo.

Then you have magSorc with Ward, and when under the hands of decent players like @Jsmalls, @MetallicMonk, etc, Sorc just looks so unfair compared to players of the same caliber on other classes.

I mean, just look at @Jsmalls’ build. His magsorc in No CP has 53k mag, 30k resistance, decent recovery with Torc, and decent movement speed from Hurricane. Even with only 24k HP, he can probably tank damage from multiple below average - average players, can still comfortably tank damage from a good player, and has the movement speed and resources to reposition when pressured by multiple good players. What are people going to do when he Streaks 5x in a row with decent movement speed to run away? NB definitely can’t survive that, and neither can Warden or any class in a full damage build, and definitely not with 24k HP lol.

So I watched the video and when you look at the KD in there it's not like he was in a room full of killers so honestly I'm not surprised at the result.

But I will say yes this is a case where a good player can make a build really work that a lot of people probably couldn't.

Now this is a more extreme example and I'll basically say that yes if several people end up doing this same thing then we have a problem. The only caveat that I'll add is that due to the low kd ratio this isn't exactly an example of good players going after another good player. Everyone would have to probably have gone after jsmalls to actually kill him.

You keep saying with one skill and that's not true, take streak off his bar and he's dead, that's it no question!

Yes ward is doing an amazing job but he cannot stand there and just take it without reposition and at times being offensive. I kept seeing him run from you, it wasn't like he was just standing there the whole time.

So yes a nb with healthy offering and shade can achieve the same result at 20k health, I've seen it and know of a player that gets a lot of kills and doesn't die often because he makes excellent use of shade.

Nope this isn't apples to apples but that's the point, each class has things it's great at and to make a comparison you would have to also say how well do these two classes perform when built to their best spec?

At the end of the day all we really get to see is KD ratio. That's the real metric, damage, healing, etc don't really matter because at the end of the day we just need to know is this spec capable of easily killing way more than it gets killed?

So in the case of the video Jsmalls killed and didn't get killed so ok that qualifies right? Yes but now we go to the next part, is it easily repeatable by other players with less skill? If the answer is yes and we start seeing 24k health sorcs everywhere then yes I'm worried.

But honestly what I saw in the video is that yes in the hands of a good player amongst not as many good players that aren't targeting that player then yes it's strong.

Now get him in a lobby full of vets, give one team a warden healer, make the other team have more wardens, hard hitting nbs, or any other strong combo and the result wouldn't likely be the same.

So the video is mildly interesting and I'm not ready to shut it down and deny anything. I've been saying all this time that the regulation to something like this is players recognizing it and knowing when they should all target it, that's what keeps things like this somewhat in check. The players I saw in this video didn't seem to have much damage or ability to work well together as evidenced by the lower kd numbers.

I think two good players targeting jsmalls would have killed him fairly easily. Yes he can streak five times but there were also a few places in the video where he could have been caught by the right combos that just weren't there.

So I appreciate the video and will say that for me it gives at least something to watch out for more of.

xylena_lazarow · March 23

Bushido2513 wrote: »

make the other team have more wardens

Great now nobody dies on any team. This is why 1v1 is still relevant and often shows things more clearly. It removes obfuscating factors such as team skill, cross healing, and dedicated supports.

Bushido2513 · March 23

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

make the other team have more wardens

Great now nobody dies on any team. This is why 1v1 is still relevant and often shows things more clearly. It removes obfuscating factors such as team skill, cross healing, and dedicated supports.

But here's the thing, 1v1 is what percentage of pvp? Cyro, IC, and BGs are where you get most of your action and anyone knows you're lucky to get a 1v1 and have it stay a 1v1.

The game is clearly oriented towards battles with any number of opponents on the regular.

In this game it's much easier and more common to have battles that grow in opponents vs shrink in opponents. This is why we have things like battle markers that show where the fight is and now callouts to let you see in chat who is killing who.

They want you to fight in groups!

This is not to say that there aren't a lot of problems with group fights because there are but that's really the only place you will get balance changes if any.

In 1v1 the shield is clearly very powerful but in gvg I've seen it be dominant and also be not more powerful than many other things.

Group v Group is the only balance ZOS is using so while I see the points of others I'm going to say we can't ignore this as well.

xylena_lazarow · March 23

Bushido2513 wrote: »

But here's the thing, 1v1 is what percentage of pvp?

More than you think, many scenarios can even be fought as a series of 1v1s.