I do not want Sorcerer buffs.

StaticWave

AdamLAD wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

And that goes for everybody in this thread. Clearly I and @MetallicMonk must be wrong since we are the only people who don’t share the same experience as everyone else. We won’t argue against buffing sorc damage anymore. Please continue asking for damage buffs. We will personally enjoy the overbuffed sorc for a whole patch when your wishes are granted 😂

Now now , I think what's probably clear is that you have a different experience that you're ok with that some of us just don't find appealing.

Now it's true there are people that would see sorc of the old days return and hey that's just how people are. But I think it is also clear that there are people who just want sorc to be a bit more applicable to their play style which if done with some care sounds legit to me.

But I'm not really too worried about an over buffed sorc because dks, wardens, and nbs would likely still be able to handle them with perhaps some minor adjustments to how they play and what not.

Doubt it. I can already go toe to toe with Dks and Nbs in my full DoT sorc build. They wont be able to kill me if my dmg gets buffed.

Fight better players ?

Yes, already have and can go toe to toe with them. Your point?

StaticWave

Bushido2513 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Doubt it. I can already go toe to toe with Dks and Nbs in my full DoT sorc build. They wont be able to kill me if my dmg gets buffed.

Like I said it would just be a matter of adjustment for them and would depend on what buffs you were given.

Say for instance NB, good luck getting your damage to stick on one that's built to roll, setup for sustain, might use shade, and who even then will still have great damage. Not saying you might not eventually kill them, just the they have options that still mitigate a decent amount of your kit.

DK, do I even need to list the ways in which they can easily boost survival?

Not saying you can't kill these guys, I get kills on them too. Just emphasizing that you could get a buff but that you could easily still be put in a stalemate if either of those classes just decided to build into a bit more or different defense.

I mean an engine guardian closes out sorc but that's fairly the case with NB to some degree as well.

And I have stated many times that I support sorc buffs favoring heals and passive rework. Idk how many times I have to repeat myself.

It’s like the majority of sorc mains here just want their class to be OP. I’m sorry but when there’s a level of bias like this I can’t take these suggestions seriously.

StaticWave

AdamLAD wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

And that goes for everybody in this thread. Clearly I and @MetallicMonk must be wrong since we are the only people who don’t share the same experience as everyone else. We won’t argue against buffing sorc damage anymore. Please continue asking for damage buffs. We will personally enjoy the overbuffed sorc for a whole patch when your wishes are granted 😂

Now now , I think what's probably clear is that you have a different experience that you're ok with that some of us just don't find appealing.

Now it's true there are people that would see sorc of the old days return and hey that's just how people are. But I think it is also clear that there are people who just want sorc to be a bit more applicable to their play style which if done with some care sounds legit to me.

But I'm not really too worried about an over buffed sorc because dks, wardens, and nbs would likely still be able to handle them with perhaps some minor adjustments to how they play and what not.

Doubt it. I can already go toe to toe with Dks and Nbs in my full DoT sorc build. They wont be able to kill me if my dmg gets buffed.

Fight better players ?

Also, let’s not forget you were the one to comment this on @MetallicMonk ’s latest 1vX video where he performed exceptionally well on a magsorc:

“Hybridization was the worst thing to happen to eso. Everyone just uses the strongest sets and strongest morphs. Killed every diversity when it came to unique PvP builds. Sorcerer using Vigor completely disinterests me or any stamina ability. Full mag or a no for me.”

I found this comment to be extremely ironic when you literally claimed hybridization killed diversity, when magsorc has been using the same 5 sets for 5 years and the same shield stacking build for 5 years up until recently when it can finally slot more heals and not need to build max magicka.

So is it hybridization that really killed diversity or is it you and many other players who are refusing to accept that the class has more options than it did and just want to restrict it to the same playstyle?

StaticWave

I’m sorry, but I just don’t agree with the majority here when there is a clear level of bias. There is a difference between asking for reasonable buffs and outright OP buffs.

I’m sorry, but trying to please the casual player is why we have broken DKs and broken NBs. No good NB or DK asked for buffs to their class. You want to close the gap between casual and top tier sorcs? I want too, but let’s not start by saying “sorc damage is weak compared to other classes” because it isn’t.

The top end players who mastered their burst rotation and game sense don’t have issues killing DKs and NBs this patch. There is no need to make everyone reach that level without investing in effort. That is why we have people who are clearly not experienced at NB and DK and pre nerf templar but can still dominate other classes within the same skill level.

Sorc damage is fine. Its defense needs some slight buff, and its passive needs a rework. That is all I have to say.

StaticWave

Bushido2513 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Also when I said fine, I meant it isn't bad. Also never said it was in the same league as a NB and DK, but a good player on sorc can fight those 2 classes. Yes they will have to put in more effort, but that's only because sorc's defense is lacking. Sorc damage is very good and can rival those 2 classes.

So maybe the argument is being made the wrong way.

Ok on paper, sorc has the damage. I can give you that.

But there's on paper damage and there's effective damage after you add all the other variables.

What I think is more the issue is the effective damage after you add in resource management, defenses, mitigation, etc.

What I'm saying is, in the current dk, Warden, NB heavy environment sorcs ability to apply that damage in a scenario where players skill and builds are both optimal, has a noticeable gap from damage on paper.

As you're saying a hybrid with sets that fill the gaps does fairly well at this but the problem is other classes don't have those gaps and so they build for even more advantage.

So add more damage or add more defense but either way I think the gap between damage on paper and damage done in common real world scenarios is there.

Also I know this gets even farther out there but it's not as meaningful if you just present a scenario that says look at me hitting for this much. I get that you qualify the target and that makes sense but it's not really meaningful data when there are so many factors in a fight.

Not to say that I don't appreciate the effort but real evidence of anything would require controlled and repeated testing and I am don't expect anyone to do that because there's too much to test.

If you're happy with sorc I can respect that but surely you can see where others might realistically want to close some of those gaps I mentioned?

Dueling with non-dueling builds is about as controlled as it can get. My master DW build with Cfrag and Curse can trade blows with a DK, NB, or a Warden the 3 classes dominating PvP right now.

I mean what qualifies as a controlled testing environment in your opinion then? Please enlighten me, because apparently my 30k+ duels in Stormhaven and in tournaments don’t qualify as controlled tests.

StaticWave

Bushido2513 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Doubt it. I can already go toe to toe with Dks and Nbs in my full DoT sorc build. They wont be able to kill me if my dmg gets buffed.

Like I said it would just be a matter of adjustment for them and would depend on what buffs you were given.

Say for instance NB, good luck getting your damage to stick on one that's built to roll, setup for sustain, might use shade, and who even then will still have great damage. Not saying you might not eventually kill them, just the they have options that still mitigate a decent amount of your kit.

DK, do I even need to list the ways in which they can easily boost survival?

Not saying you can't kill these guys, I get kills on them too. Just emphasizing that you could get a buff but that you could easily still be put in a stalemate if either of those classes just decided to build into a bit more or different defense.

I mean an engine guardian closes out sorc but that's fairly the case with NB to some degree as well.

1) I’ve dueled rollerblades and it’s not hard to counter them. You just need to slot the right abilities and have good timing. You can’t expect 1 build to counter every possible scenario. That’s bad game design.

It’s like saying a rollerblade should also be able to counter an AoE build. No, it should’t. Similarly a magsorc with mostly hard hitting single target damage shouldn’t be able to easily deliver the damage. That’s bad game design.

2) Since I participated in many tournaments, I know how strong DKs are. Believe me I do. I spent probably 5k+ duels just to fight DKs. I’ve fought just about every aids build you can throw on a DK. Ever fought a triple proc corrosive stamDK with 8k WD that can 1 shot most people in 5 seconds? I have. Ever fought a magDK that can deal 6k DPS? I have. But I also know for a fact that if I had a burst heal I can stalemate in a fight against them or even kill them.


The problem is most people aren’t willing to try new things to truly see if the class is lacking. How many of you tried a healing sorc before hybridization? I know a few who did and got decent 1vXes out of it, even won a lot of 1v1s too. How many of you actually went hybrid this patch? Probably not many judging from the amount of comments asking for shield buffs.

So when you have people who refuse to slot a couple heals complain about magsorc lacking defense, it doesn’t hold a lot of weight. While I’m here wishing that I had a burst heal or a stamina scaling shield so I can sit and face tank a DK, sorcs who refuse to slot heals complain their class is weak. Cmon lol

OBJnoob

ForumBully wrote: »

I wouldn't mind this, but then I'd give up Minor Berserk with Camo hunter. I'd almost rather see a flat Crit chance buff on a class passive. I think if we start suggesting named buffs on skills ZoS might put them on something like rune cage or mines and call it a day.
If they wanna give me penetration on curse...I'll take that.

I think Curse is probably the best tool sorc has and as such doesn't need any love... But, like you, I'd take it.

As to the other point-- I dunno. I'll give up minor berserk in a heartbeat for another bar slot. I loathe slotting things like camo hunter or flare, and obviously hate feeling like I HAVE to even more. Anyway I plan on using wrecking blow for major berserk so it doesn't effect me that much.

Bushido2513

StaticWave wrote: »

And I have stated many times that I support sorc buffs favoring heals and passive rework. Idk how many times I have to repeat myself.

It’s like the majority of sorc mains here just want their class to be OP. I’m sorry but when there’s a level of bias like this I can’t take these suggestions seriously.

I mean that sword cuts both ways. People have their bias but you also seem to be coming from your own.

I say that only to say that I get that you have your way of playing the game and what makes a sorc to you but there's still room to respect that there's other ways people might enjoy the class that don't have to be op.

Also even to figure out if something is op sometimes you do just have to see it through then make adjustments vs all the theoretical which just turns into the back and forth that is this thread.

I personally don't know if everything you've said would prove to be right or wrong though I admit some things are probably likely true. Still maybe we need healing maybe we need modified damage should, both could be added to sorc tastefully I think or at least in a way we could tweak.

AdamLAD

StaticWave wrote: »

AdamLAD wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

And that goes for everybody in this thread. Clearly I and @MetallicMonk must be wrong since we are the only people who don’t share the same experience as everyone else. We won’t argue against buffing sorc damage anymore. Please continue asking for damage buffs. We will personally enjoy the overbuffed sorc for a whole patch when your wishes are granted 😂

Now now , I think what's probably clear is that you have a different experience that you're ok with that some of us just don't find appealing.

Now it's true there are people that would see sorc of the old days return and hey that's just how people are. But I think it is also clear that there are people who just want sorc to be a bit more applicable to their play style which if done with some care sounds legit to me.

But I'm not really too worried about an over buffed sorc because dks, wardens, and nbs would likely still be able to handle them with perhaps some minor adjustments to how they play and what not.

Doubt it. I can already go toe to toe with Dks and Nbs in my full DoT sorc build. They wont be able to kill me if my dmg gets buffed.

Fight better players ?

Also, let’s not forget you were the one to comment this on @MetallicMonk ’s latest 1vX video where he performed exceptionally well on a magsorc:

“Hybridization was the worst thing to happen to eso. Everyone just uses the strongest sets and strongest morphs. Killed every diversity when it came to unique PvP builds. Sorcerer using Vigor completely disinterests me or any stamina ability. Full mag or a no for me.”

I found this comment to be extremely ironic when you literally claimed hybridization killed diversity, when magsorc has been using the same 5 sets for 5 years and the same shield stacking build for 5 years up until recently when it can finally slot more heals and not need to build max magicka.

So is it hybridization that really killed diversity or is it you and many other players who are refusing to accept that the class has more options than it did and just want to restrict it to the same playstyle?

Ur forgetting I'm not asking for massive buffs either ??? Reduced cost to shields, passive reworks. The reason I'm advocating for buffs is because across the board shields have been bottom of the pile for defence. Hence why people are not using them. This aspect of the game has been completely forgotten about and does need a slight buff. Years ago nearly all classes used them. Now they do not. I'd like to see it be viable again, not just for sorcerer but for all classes

OBJnoob

So many sorcs disagreeing on so many things. Can we all leave this "I do not want buffs" thread and continue in the "do sorcs complain too much" one?

The OP doesn't want buffs I guess but everyone else wants them, big or small. And though his name gets dropped a lot it doesn't seem like Mr Metallic really has anything to say.

Bushido2513

StaticWave wrote: »

Dueling with non-dueling builds is about as controlled as it can get. My master DW build with Cfrag and Curse can trade blows with a DK, NB, or a Warden the 3 classes dominating PvP right now.

I mean what qualifies as a controlled testing environment in your opinion then? Please enlighten me, because apparently my 30k+ duels in Stormhaven and in tournaments don’t qualify as controlled tests.

Ok so I will answer your question but remember that I said nobody would actually want to do the testing. First I will say this, part of my job is scenario and variable testing. Almost daily I sit in environments, test a scenario, think of another scenario, revert the test environment, test again, etc etc until I run out of reasonable scenarios that apply to the situation. Most of this has to be documented for fact checking and reference material later.

So anyways to actually have an answer I'd be able to even remotely accept here you'd have to test in combat on 1v1 and 1vx both comprised of enemies you know the exact specs of and who will repeatedly attack you in noted scenarios then test how you are able to respond over several iterations. The key point is that to get anywhere near accurate data you'd have to keep resetting the simulation but keep it the same every time.

Random battle information or citing a clip here or a clip there is just that, random and not overall reliable compared to the vast number of battle simulations that can occur in eso when you factor in enemy playstyle, build, cp, number of enemies, enemy class, group composition, enemy playstyle within group composition.

This is what I mean by you playing the way that makes sense to you but that maybe not being what others are asking for. Part of what I do is to listen to the various needs of members of a group or groups and to find the best options but to do that I have to have accurate and repeatable variables.

Again this doesn't discount the many hours you've played the game. I've played many myself and I have my opinions. This is just me saying what kind of testing would be needed to really have an opinion that is objective rather than subjective.

But like I said nobody is doing all that work. Even the dev team is probably doing it at a macro level to save time lol.

Bushido2513

StaticWave wrote: »

The problem is most people aren’t willing to try new things to truly see if the class is lacking. How many of you tried a healing sorc before hybridization? I know a few who did and got decent 1vXes out of it, even won a lot of 1v1s too. How many of you actually went hybrid this patch? Probably not many judging from the amount of comments asking for shield buffs.

So when you have people who refuse to slot a couple heals complain about magsorc lacking defense, it doesn’t hold a lot of weight. While I’m here wishing that I had a burst heal or a stamina scaling shield so I can sit and face tank a DK, sorcs who refuse to slot heals complain their class is weak. Cmon lol

Hey I'm a purist so sorc appeals to me and I tend to play it more than any class. I played hybrid as soon as it was viable and yes it's not a bad build to play. Actually I played the proc build then I moved to a more well rounded build. And yes I have played stam and mag sorc to the degree that I've tried to heal when you couldn't heal and watched that become more and more garbage as other classes got buffs.

Through all that I still stick with sorc and probably enjoy sorc the most because I like to earn the kills I get.

That being said, I don't duel as much as I used to because it's gotten sort of bland over time and people always have a commentary win or lose.

I play in IC where as some might say, it's a bit of an apex predator environment at times and very cutthroat. I prefer open world most of all but PSNA is garbage on that front so I hit IC and BGS. My point in all that is that different environments and different enemies and playstyles require different approaches.

I'm dealing with players that came to gank in tag team formations with all damage builds and a healer. And yes I know how to kite and deal with them, and it's better on hybrid but seriously I'm trying to kill this one guy who's off to his own when his buddy comes out of stealth with the full combo.

In this scenario I need survivability and damage and if it's potatoes I'll probably be fine but I don't care about killing potatoes, I'll usually avoid them if I've already killed them previously. I'm looing for more of a challenge and that's where I'm running up against the wall of sorc needing a buff.

Part of my point in that whole story was to illustrate that we all probably have different ideas of what we want sorc to do. Of course there are people that want an I win button but there's also people in here that just maybe want to play differently than you do but on a fair level.

I'll admit it's tough to balance a class for 1v1 and 1vx, usually just doesn't work but I'd take something that's fair in 1v1 with something to give them an edge in 1vx.

Bushido2513

OBJnoob wrote: »

So many sorcs disagreeing on so many things. Can we all leave this "I do not want buffs" thread and continue in the "do sorcs complain too much" one?

The OP doesn't want buffs I guess but everyone else wants them, big or small. And though his name gets dropped a lot it doesn't seem like Mr Metallic really has anything to say.

Honestly I'm pretty sure people just need to get this stuff out of their system and say it in the open. So this thread or another, probably doesn't matter. This post was already summed up like 30 post ago and now people are just getting their last words in lol.

auz

Sorc just needs a rework of the passives to make them less pet centric. Where would I put a burst heal anyway? I already don't have enough space to put all the skills I want. I am not sure how people run pets.
A small buff to crit surge would be great.

Fugus

StaticWave wrote: »

Fugus wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Lol that’s just basically defining strong pressure. There’s levels to pressure, similar to how there’s level to bursts.

I can face tank a DK and sit at 90% HP indefinitely until I get fossilized and drop to 50% HP from a Whip. Does that mean the DK was just annoying me and not pressuring? No, it meant the DK pressured and forced me to be defensive.

Any class can do that with the right build/skill combination. DoT builds can do it the easiest, but if you have a build with layered bursts, you can also achieve the same effect.

If that's your definition of pressure then your version of pressure has no weight in these discussions.

If I am playing a game and their attacks put me at 90%, then I don't call that pressure, I call them a joke.

Lol sure, we can agree to disagree. I am continuing to pressure most people I fight against. If you think sorc pressure is bad and needs buffing, go ahead. That will only make me and @MetallicMonk stronger as a player lol.

I am not calling Sorcerer pressure a joke at all, I haven't got to the point of PvP were I can make that call.

I am calling your definition of pressure a joke. Saying you putting pressure on them as defined by "Not letting them stay at 100% and keeping them around 90%" is a joke.

That would be like me saying I am putting pressure on a world class strong man's abilities by having him hold my 20oz soda bottle. While technically I might have him using his muscles to grasp it, that isn't putting pressure on them. Same as your definition of pressure you said.

Edit: If this was setup like Borderlands which has a mechanic called "Health Gate" where it is impossible to 1-shot you so long as you have full health and is required otherwise most things could 1 shot you at higher levels then you might have a point, because at that point, being at 90% isn't much better than being at 5% for those games because anything less than 100% will get you 1-shot by most remotely strong enemies. THEN 90% would be considered pressure.

But on here, health gating isn't a thing and keeping someone at 90% isn't putting pressure on them in any meaningful version of the word.

On this game, if you are just keeping me at 90%, you aren't putting pressure on me, you are trying to troll me or lull me into thinking you are weaker than you are unless you are forcing me to drop all offense and go pure defense spamming defenses and heals to keep myself at 90%. But that would be strong pressure.

Weak pressure would be you keeping them around 50-60% while they are still damaging you between their own heals they keep having to keep up on themselves while doing it.

But 90% while most of the classes on here spammable heals tied to their DPS abilities isn't pressure.At best, that is just preventing overhealing.

Turtle_Bot

StaticWave wrote: »

The problem is most people aren’t willing to try new things to truly see if the class is lacking. How many of you tried a healing sorc before hybridization? I know a few who did and got decent 1vXes out of it, even won a lot of 1v1s too. How many of you actually went hybrid this patch? Probably not many judging from the amount of comments asking for shield buffs.

So when you have people who refuse to slot a couple heals complain about magsorc lacking defense, it doesn’t hold a lot of weight. While I’m here wishing that I had a burst heal or a stamina scaling shield so I can sit and face tank a DK, sorcs who refuse to slot heals complain their class is weak. Cmon lol

I've almost exclusively ran heals on a sorc in PvP. The only time I stacked shields was way back when healing ward was massively OP as a burst heal and even then I only played that build for a short period, quickly swapping back to heals. Most of the time, if I'm running shields at all it's only 1 shield and the rest has always been healing.

Healing just fits my playstyle better than shields, mostly because minimum 300+ ping absolutely sucks for maintaining vital short duration defensive buffs all the time without overbuffing, but also because I tend to space out for a second occasionally while playing and won't notice if a short (6s) duration buff falls off for a second or 2 (all fine against bad players, but is brutally punished by good players).

Magsorc defense since U33 has most definitely been lacking, pre U33 it was carried by resto staff. It is in a better spot now that shields actually provide a buffer that usually lasts more than 1 gcd (better than I initially thought it would be) and a couple of external (out of class) changes have helped a lot as well, but it could still use some small tweaks (mostly on passives/major prophecy/savagery) to round it out and see it become a complete and modern class that is fun to play and strong without being OP.

StaticWave

Fugus wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Fugus wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Lol that’s just basically defining strong pressure. There’s levels to pressure, similar to how there’s level to bursts.

I can face tank a DK and sit at 90% HP indefinitely until I get fossilized and drop to 50% HP from a Whip. Does that mean the DK was just annoying me and not pressuring? No, it meant the DK pressured and forced me to be defensive.

Any class can do that with the right build/skill combination. DoT builds can do it the easiest, but if you have a build with layered bursts, you can also achieve the same effect.

If that's your definition of pressure then your version of pressure has no weight in these discussions.

If I am playing a game and their attacks put me at 90%, then I don't call that pressure, I call them a joke.

Lol sure, we can agree to disagree. I am continuing to pressure most people I fight against. If you think sorc pressure is bad and needs buffing, go ahead. That will only make me and @MetallicMonk stronger as a player lol.

I am not calling Sorcerer pressure a joke at all, I haven't got to the point of PvP were I can make that call.

I am calling your definition of pressure a joke. Saying you putting pressure on them as defined by "Not letting them stay at 100% and keeping them around 90%" is a joke.

That would be like me saying I am putting pressure on a world class strong man's abilities by having him hold my 20oz soda bottle. While technically I might have him using his muscles to grasp it, that isn't putting pressure on them. Same as your definition of pressure you said.

This is a fight. When you let a strong man holds a bottle of soda you are removing his 1 hand from participating in the combat. That could be called pressure.

Applying this logic to ESO, when you deal damage to the point that the opponent is forced to stay on their back bar that’s pressure.

In the clip I posted, the NB instantly lost over 50% of his HP when he stopped playing defense. He had to play defense afterwards in a longer clip. That is the kind of pressure I am talking about. It doesn’t need to be severely dropping someone below 50% HP for the majority of the time. It only needs to be “I can force this guy to be on his back bar for the majority of the fight.”

I have seen many magplars get forced on back bar 90% of the duel. They were still at 90% HP because of great healing, but that still means pressure. The plar couldn’t go offensive lol.

StaticWave

Fugus wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Fugus wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Lol that’s just basically defining strong pressure. There’s levels to pressure, similar to how there’s level to bursts.

I can face tank a DK and sit at 90% HP indefinitely until I get fossilized and drop to 50% HP from a Whip. Does that mean the DK was just annoying me and not pressuring? No, it meant the DK pressured and forced me to be defensive.

Any class can do that with the right build/skill combination. DoT builds can do it the easiest, but if you have a build with layered bursts, you can also achieve the same effect.

If that's your definition of pressure then your version of pressure has no weight in these discussions.

If I am playing a game and their attacks put me at 90%, then I don't call that pressure, I call them a joke.

Lol sure, we can agree to disagree. I am continuing to pressure most people I fight against. If you think sorc pressure is bad and needs buffing, go ahead. That will only make me and @MetallicMonk stronger as a player lol.

I am not calling Sorcerer pressure a joke at all, I haven't got to the point of PvP were I can make that call.

I am calling your definition of pressure a joke. Saying you putting pressure on them as defined by "Not letting them stay at 100% and keeping them around 90%" is a joke.

That would be like me saying I am putting pressure on a world class strong man's abilities by having him hold my 20oz soda bottle. While technically I might have him using his muscles to grasp it, that isn't putting pressure on them. Same as your definition of pressure you said.

Edit: If this was setup like Borderlands which has a mechanic called "Health Gate" where it is impossible to 1-shot you so long as you have full health and is required otherwise most things could 1 shot you at higher levels then you might have a point, because at that point, being at 90% isn't much better than being at 5% for those games because anything less than 100% will get you 1-shot by most remotely strong enemies. THEN 90% would be considered pressure.

But on here, health gating isn't a thing and keeping someone at 90% isn't putting pressure on them in any meaningful version of the word.

On this game, if you are just keeping me at 90%, you aren't putting pressure on me, you are trying to troll me or lull me into thinking you are weaker than you are unless you are forcing me to drop all offense and go pure defense spamming defenses and heals to keep myself at 90%. But that would be strong pressure.

Weak pressure would be you keeping them around 50-60% while they are still damaging you between their own heals they keep having to keep up on themselves while doing it.

Also, you are reading too much into keeping someone at 90% HP.

I also don’t like how you literally ignored my comment saying “the DK pressured and forced me to be defensive” and called my version of pressure a joke, when later on you defined pressure as the same thing I did. Uh hello?

StaticWave

@Fugus
Uh hello??? Can you please explain why you ignored the portion of my comment that clearly said “the DK pressured and forced me to be defensive”

StaticWave wrote: »

I can face tank a DK and sit at 90% HP indefinitely until I get fossilized and drop to 50% HP from a Whip. Does that mean the DK was just annoying me and not pressuring? No, it meant the DK pressured and forced me to be defensive.

Fugus wrote: »

unless you are forcing me to drop all offense and go pure defense spamming defenses and heals to keep myself at 90%. But that would be strong pressure.

You disagreed with me yet you said the same thing I said. What????

So basically there is no argument because you didn’t read my comment carefully and was too quick to reply. Okay lol

StaticWave

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

The problem is most people aren’t willing to try new things to truly see if the class is lacking. How many of you tried a healing sorc before hybridization? I know a few who did and got decent 1vXes out of it, even won a lot of 1v1s too. How many of you actually went hybrid this patch? Probably not many judging from the amount of comments asking for shield buffs.

So when you have people who refuse to slot a couple heals complain about magsorc lacking defense, it doesn’t hold a lot of weight. While I’m here wishing that I had a burst heal or a stamina scaling shield so I can sit and face tank a DK, sorcs who refuse to slot heals complain their class is weak. Cmon lol

I've almost exclusively ran heals on a sorc in PvP. The only time I stacked shields was way back when healing ward was massively OP as a burst heal and even then I only played that build for a short period, quickly swapping back to heals. Most of the time, if I'm running shields at all it's only 1 shield and the rest has always been healing.

Healing just fits my playstyle better than shields, mostly because minimum 300+ ping absolutely sucks for maintaining vital short duration defensive buffs all the time without overbuffing, but also because I tend to space out for a second occasionally while playing and won't notice if a short (6s) duration buff falls off for a second or 2 (all fine against bad players, but is brutally punished by good players).

Magsorc defense since U33 has most definitely been lacking, pre U33 it was carried by resto staff. It is in a better spot now that shields actually provide a buffer that usually lasts more than 1 gcd (better than I initially thought it would be) and a couple of external (out of class) changes have helped a lot as well, but it could still use some small tweaks (mostly on passives/major prophecy/savagery) to round it out and see it become a complete and modern class that is fun to play and strong without being OP.

I agree with you that sorc needs a slight tweak to passives and in-class Major Prophecy. I think we came to an agreement in several threads already lol.

Having Major Prophecy on an existing class ability will free up a slot for me to use these abilities on my hybrid sorc:

Front: Crushing Wep, Frag, Curse, Bound Arms, Hardened Ward

Back: Streak, Dark Deal, Vigor, Crit Surge, Hurricane(or RAT if I use Chudan)

This would be the burstiest ranged build I could ever play while having decent survivability with 40k HP, a 10k shield, 2 HoTs, a pseudo burst heal, and a good mobility tool.

This is ideally what I would like sorc to be. Not OP but strong enough to rival the current OP classes in the hands of a good player.

Fugus

StaticWave wrote: »

You disagreed with me yet you said the same thing I said. What????

So basically there is no argument because you didn’t read my comment carefully and was too quick to reply. Okay lol

I read it as you saying that just being kept below 100% is pressure and then used sitting at 90% as an example.

Until he hit you down to 50% though, he was not pressuring you. He pressured you when he pushed you down to 50% but not when he was just getting you to 90%.

StaticWave

Fugus wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

You disagreed with me yet you said the same thing I said. What????

So basically there is no argument because you didn’t read my comment carefully and was too quick to reply. Okay lol

I read it as you saying that just being kept below 100% is pressure and then used sitting at 90% as an example.

Until he hit you down to 50% though, he was not pressuring you. He pressured you when he pushed you down to 50% but not when he was just getting you to 90%.

You are ignoring my point again.

It doesn’t matter if I’m sitting at 50% or 90%. If I have to be on my back bar just to reach a certain HP threshold, then he is pressuring me. Even though I can sit at 90% HP, I have to use all my defensive skills and the moment I bar swap to go offensive my HP will drop. That’s why I said the DK still pressured me to be on my back bar.

You read way too much into the whole 90% thing instead of understanding the point I was trying to make, which I clearly said in the same comment.

StaticWave

Fugus wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

You disagreed with me yet you said the same thing I said. What????

So basically there is no argument because you didn’t read my comment carefully and was too quick to reply. Okay lol

I read it as you saying that just being kept below 100% is pressure and then used sitting at 90% as an example.

Until he hit you down to 50% though, he was not pressuring you. He pressured you when he pushed you down to 50% but not when he was just getting you to 90%.

And if someone can drop you to 50% HP, then the fight is already over with several execute spams. If my HP drops to 50% from just DoTs then I’ve already lost. Most builds cannot do that except for a few. Are you going to say they aren’t pressure builds? If you define it like that then literally 95% of the game including DKs won’t fit into your definition of pressure lol.

MetallicMonk

OBJnoob wrote: »

So many sorcs disagreeing on so many things. Can we all leave this "I do not want buffs" thread and continue in the "do sorcs complain too much" one?

The OP doesn't want buffs I guess but everyone else wants them, big or small. And though his name gets dropped a lot it doesn't seem like Mr Metallic really has anything to say.

I specifically said I do want buffs this thread was made mostly because I disagree with the mentality people have of overbuffing everything to insane levels I honestly do think it would be more enjoyable if other aspects of classes like DK and nightblade were toned down. While I do think sorcerer could use some defensive improvements and quality of life passive changes I don't want it to follow suit with those classes and become boring. That was the main point, also because I thought it was a bit funny.

PhoenixGrey

MetallicMonk wrote: »

OBJnoob wrote: »

So many sorcs disagreeing on so many things. Can we all leave this "I do not want buffs" thread and continue in the "do sorcs complain too much" one?

The OP doesn't want buffs I guess but everyone else wants them, big or small. And though his name gets dropped a lot it doesn't seem like Mr Metallic really has anything to say.

I specifically said I do want buffs this thread was made mostly because I disagree with the mentality people have of overbuffing everything to insane levels I honestly do think it would be more enjoyable if other aspects of classes like DK and nightblade were toned down. While I do think sorcerer could use some defensive improvements and quality of life passive changes I don't want it to follow suit with those classes and become boring. That was the main point, also because I thought it was a bit funny.

What’s actually funny here is ppl thinking NB will ever be nerfed without realizing that ship has sailed long back.

Also I disagree with the boring analogy. More players play dk and nb compared to sorc

Because the fact is an average dk or nb poses a serious challenge for even a top tier sorc

Brrrofski

This thread is a mess.

Yes, good sorcs do well. I still compete. Last time I played EU I saw Adam Lad doing well as a solo mag sorc. I'm sure others in this thread do.

The point people are making is that you have to be very good to compete with above average players on some other classes. And if a good sorc played one of those classes, it's a massacre.

When I jump between sorc, NB and DK, it's very obvious to me which one struggles more in 1vX. It's night and day.

Most people here think damage is fine for the most part. Which I agree with.

Sorc needs some sort of extra heal that isn't tied to a pet or resto. It doesn't have to be a crazy strong burst heal, but it needs something. Shield, vigor and crit surge isn't as good as a strong burst heal (which every class apart from sorc has), vigor and some additional healing (which most classes have which is almost as high as crit surge, but often work when being defensive). I mean, would any class swap their burst heal for a shield? Nope.

Some passives need work too. The sustain passives are quite bad compared to other classes. And the pet tree is useless for most ways of playing sorc.

That's all. I don't know how it ended up being hand picked clips and comparing damage tooltips...

Anyway, my question is, what is the new shield like? On Xbox so haven't got it yet. Anyone on PC tried it out?

StaticWave

Brrrofski wrote: »

Most people here think damage is fine for the most part. Which I agree with.

Brrrofski wrote: »

That's all. I don't know how it ended up being hand picked clips and comparing damage tooltips...

There were a few people who believe sorc damage is bad compared to other classes. I had to show them why sorc damage is fine through clips and tooltips.

Brrrofski wrote: »

Sorc needs some sort of extra heal that isn't tied to a pet or resto

Agreed

Brrrofski wrote: »

Some passives need work too. The sustain passives are quite bad compared to other classes. And the pet tree is useless for most ways of playing sorc.

Also agreed

StaticWave

Bushido2513 wrote: »

So anyways to actually have an answer I'd be able to even remotely accept here you'd have to test in combat on 1v1 and 1vx both comprised of enemies you know the exact specs of and who will repeatedly attack you in noted scenarios then test how you are able to respond over several iterations. The key point is that to get anywhere near accurate data you'd have to keep resetting the simulation but keep it the same every time.

The thing is, we literally did that for 2 years on PC NA. I was a moderator of a very large dueling guild on PC-NA before they disbanded (Legend dueling guild to be exact). Whenever Legend hosted a tournament, I and other moderators would have everyone who were participating get into a spot (usually Stormhaven) and repeatedly duel to test the rules.

We dueled for hours every week against the same people in the same builds to test for the rules. Magsorc has never been bad at dealing damage within the rule parameters. It was weak against DKs and Magplars, but they were OP and everyone else had trouble against them. Against other classes, magsorc didn't have much issue killing.

That was as controlled as it could get. I didn't just come to this conclusion through a few clips. I had thousands of hours dueling magsorcs and spectating other magsorcs duel other people as part of a dueling guild to come to this conclusion. My experience may differ from other people, but I am 100% sure everybody who participated in that testing environment would also agree with me that magsorc DOES HAVE PRESSURE.

Outside of the tournament, it was much harder to test as most people were running cancer builds and could cheese down the magsorc. However, that is an issue of poor defense, which I have many times stated that I support buffing that aspect of the class.

Turtle_Bot

Brrrofski wrote: »

This thread is a mess.

Yes, good sorcs do well. I still compete. Last time I played EU I saw Adam Lad doing well as a solo mag sorc. I'm sure others in this thread do.

The point people are making is that you have to be very good to compete with above average players on some other classes. And if a good sorc played one of those classes, it's a massacre.

When I jump between sorc, NB and DK, it's very obvious to me which one struggles more in 1vX. It's night and day.

Most people here think damage is fine for the most part. Which I agree with.

Sorc needs some sort of extra heal that isn't tied to a pet or resto. It doesn't have to be a crazy strong burst heal, but it needs something. Shield, vigor and crit surge isn't as good as a strong burst heal (which every class apart from sorc has), vigor and some additional healing (which most classes have which is almost as high as crit surge, but often work when being defensive). I mean, would any class swap their burst heal for a shield? Nope.

Some passives need work too. The sustain passives are quite bad compared to other classes. And the pet tree is useless for most ways of playing sorc.

That's all. I don't know how it ended up being hand picked clips and comparing damage tooltips...

Anyway, my question is, what is the new shield like? On Xbox so haven't got it yet. Anyone on PC tried it out?

2, 5+ hour sessions of testing in the new patch now. Small sample size I know, but we haven't had much time yet on live servers with live combat conditions to properly test it until now.

The shield is ok, it's better than it was before, but it's definitely not a top tier defensive tool, especially for 1vX scenarios and against high pressure classes (see DK) and still nowhere near as strong compared to block casting heals. It is however in a much better spot for small scale, group play and large chaotic zerg fights since it now provides a buffer that usually lasts longer than 1 GCD.

If the games performance was completely perfect all the time and debilitating bugs like desyncs/break free did not exist, I could see sorcs get away with not needing a proper burst heal, but with perfect performance and zero bugs all but a pipe dream for us players (even with server upgrades, since it seems even NA is starting to get more issues lately) a proper burst heal is going to have to be looked into for the class and sooner rather than later.

I think the devs are just going to have to swallow their pride on this one and listen to the player base here, the PvP in ESO itself just isn't conducive to shields as the main defensive option anymore (especially on PC EU) and won't be again unless shields get changed to become really brokenly OP or high sustained pressure classes (DK) get nuked back out of existence, neither of which I want to see happen.

ForumBully

MetallicMonk wrote: »

OBJnoob wrote: »

So many sorcs disagreeing on so many things. Can we all leave this "I do not want buffs" thread and continue in the "do sorcs complain too much" one?

The OP doesn't want buffs I guess but everyone else wants them, big or small. And though his name gets dropped a lot it doesn't seem like Mr Metallic really has anything to say.

I specifically said I do want buffs this thread was made mostly because I disagree with the mentality people have of overbuffing everything to insane levels I honestly do think it would be more enjoyable if other aspects of classes like DK and nightblade were toned down. While I do think sorcerer could use some defensive improvements and quality of life passive changes I don't want it to follow suit with those classes and become boring. That was the main point, also because I thought it was a bit funny.

While I agree that Sorcs don't need a lot, I'd always rather advocate buffs to what's weak than nerfs to what's strong. Nerfing what's strong has been done to death and it's never a gentle process...look at Templar.
Sorc is last in line behind Templar and Necro in terms of needing buffs, but I'd rather see a weaker class get stronger, even at the risk of going too far, than ask ZOS to cripple the classes that actually work well now.