I do not want Sorcerer buffs.

Cloudrest

Jsmalls wrote: »

If you Roll dodge cancel a heal its going to give you 2 gcds for HoTs and burst heals to recover only having to deal with curse (which I'm sure you're purging). And a lot of that damage was chosen to be face tanked versus mitigated by other means.

Jsmalls wrote: »

Maybe you were out of stamina idk but that's a your sustain thing, not a Mag Sorc OP thing.

Jsmalls wrote: »

I'm not saying a MagSorc can't deal damage if you allow them to. I'm saying a great player knows how to avoid a large portion of MagSorc damage.

I much prefer to reflexively block someone's burst in the middle of while they're pressuring me with my heals up, "facetanking" the pressure whilst staying alive through the burst. That's a Magplar thing, though, and other classes can't do it anywhere near as well. Sure, I could have held block and mitigated all of his damage, or kept roll-cancelling HOTD, but that would have lost me the duel due to a variety of reasons.

I always keep enough stamina to break free, and even with weaving heavies in that duel (as I'm sure you noticed), I barely had enough to do that due to having to time my block against his burst. The choice came down to roll dodge/hold block and have no stamina, leading to me eating a CC and dying, or keep selectively blocking the burst and healing through the pressure to wait for a window. I chose the latter, and blocked a Dawnbreaker that would've caught me in the middle of my roll regardless and killed me. Good players are pretty good at punishing dodge rolls like that.

Things aren't as simple as you make them out to be in a dueling environment, unfortunately. In an ideal environment, sure, you could just roll dodge a Sorc's entire burst combo to recover, but dueling is never an ideal environment and there's a lot of other factors that go into a fight. I'm sure you know that, though.

Noone has said "Mag Sorc OP", just that it isn't in as bad of a place as people think it is. It has pretty good pressure and great damage with a good build, and any buffs to it would have to be handled very, very carefully to avoid it being stupidly overpowered like it was in the past, which many of the good Sorc players don't want.

Jsmalls

@Cloudrest

Once again if YOU'D have been out of stamina that's a YOU thing. I have dueled plenty of players that dodge roll consistently throughout a fight and have enough stamina to keep fighting and breaking CC's. The first and second dodge roll aren't that expensive and when combined with block and defensive CC's you should have no problem alternating those defenses while maintaining your stamina pool.

And if you're caught with a CC when roll dodge ends your HoT will be ticking and you will have been caught by a low damage ability (CCs are low damage) and if you have enough reaction time (ping pending) you have enough time to CC break and heal/block the next projectile due to minimum travel times.

When dueling another Mag Sorc rolling is one of my best defenses (I know how frustrating it is from experiencing the counterplay myself).

Lol to dodge rolling the dawnbreaker. Nah block that all day. But a dodge roll to recover from projectiles is highly recommended due to block giving you 1 GCD with minimal damage and rolling giving you 2 gcds and no damage.

No hard feelings just giving my opinions on your clip, and what I've seen others do to counter my damage.

Mag Sorc has damage no doubt. Their damage is also very telegraphed and avoidable! Thanks.

Nevidyra

Jsmalls wrote: »

@Cloudrest

Once again if YOU'D have been out of stamina that's a YOU thing. I have dueled plenty of players that dodge roll consistently throughout a fight and have enough stamina to keep fighting and breaking CC's. The first and second dodge roll aren't that expensive and when combined with block and defensive CC's you should have no problem alternating those defenses while maintaining your stamina pool.

And if you're caught with a CC when roll dodge ends your HoT will be ticking and you will have been caught by a low damage ability (CCs are low damage) and if you have enough reaction time (ping pending) you have enough time to CC break and heal/block the next projectile due to minimum travel times.

When dueling another Mag Sorc rolling is one of my best defenses (I know how frustrating it is from experiencing the counterplay myself).

Lol to dodge rolling the dawnbreaker. Nah block that all day. But a dodge roll to recover from projectiles is highly recommended.

No hard feelings just giving my opinions on your clip, and what I've seen others do to counter my damage.

Mag Sorc has damage no doubt. Their damage is also very telegraphed and avoidable! Thanks.

lmao

Jsmalls

Never said the Sorc will do no damage, but dodging a frag proc will take out a lot of the damage in a given window due to RNG proc chance for said frag.

And to touch back on what another person said, we're looking at combat metrics for DPS. Well guess what I can be in duel for 10 minutes and have done 1.5k DPS at the end of it and still won. Why? Because even if you do 4k DPS and the opponent is handling that amount its going to take 30k damage in 2-4 seconds to actually kill the other player, and that only needs to happen once.

DPS isn't an end all be all stat for a PvP encounter, it just isn't...

Bushido2513

Nevidyra wrote: »

you do realize you are trying to explain things to @Cloudrest, who many people regard as one of the best Magplars in duels on PC, right? you seem to be saying that a good player should make sorc look useless and unable to burst/pressure a fight due all of the damage being telegraphed and avoidable which is just kinda untrue. even a nightblade spamming roll dodge in 7 well fitted will take damage if the sorc knows what they are doing.

You realize I've played this game for years and never heard of Cloudrest right? Side note I do like the name!

I say that to say that I'm not sure it clarifies anything when we try to represent something as if it means something just because it means something to us and we know a few people that agree. It just muddies up the waters without being all that useful. Though I do respect that everyone has an opinion of course.

I think the thought was that more damage could have been avoided but not that all damage could have been avoided.

So looking at it technically the question would be if you take two sorc rotation given the described skills what would yield there most damage mitigation in each scenario per stamina cost, roll dodging or blocking.
?

Both allow for a heal weaved in so I think only the efficiency of the chosen technique would matter.

MetallicMonk

[snip] back to my original point.

Nerf nightblade, nerf Dk, nerf warden, and nerf burst heals.

Let's tone down the ridiculous classes and make people die and pvp fun again.

[Edited for inappropriate language]

Jsmalls

MetallicMonk wrote: »

[snip], back to my original point.

Nerf nightblade, nerf Dk, nerf warden, and nerf burst heals.

Let's tone down the ridiculous classes and make people die and pvp fun again.

Now this I can get behind. Also in before <snip> for editing by forum mods.

I also think this is the core of the problem. The 99% aren't killing other players because no one dies in a 1v1 anymore /hyperbole.

But I mean it does have some truth to it...

[Edited for quote]

Bushido2513

MetallicMonk wrote: »

[snip] back to my original point.

Nerf nightblade, nerf Dk, nerf warden, and nerf burst heals.

Let's tone down the ridiculous classes and make people die and pvp fun again.

Normally I'd say not going to happen due to ZOS factors but I could actually see this happening across the board. I say this because all of the classes mentioned seemed to have had their burst heals brought in line to the current level. So it's possible that soon they could be toned down across the board.


But it's a weird balancing act. Letting people die but making the experience still feel fun and worthwhile. I hope they strike the right balance someday.

[Edited for quote]

StaticWave

Jsmalls wrote: »

@Cloudrest

I can't speak for the scenario that lead up to that clip, but I do have to ask why you didn't dodge roll and breath of life to recover. From what I can see Metallic has curse, frag, crushing shock, and destructive reach on. Disregarding that 2/4 of those abilities are not class related, 3/4 of them are projectiles. If you Roll dodge cancel a heal its going to give you 2 gcds for HoTs and burst heals to recover only having to deal with curse (which I'm sure you're purging). Maybe you were out of stamina idk but that's a your sustain thing, not a Mag Sorc OP thing. And a lot of that damage was chosen to be face tanked versus mitigated by other means.

Secondly notice how Metallic stayed on the offensive and died for it. He dropped his ward and likely some buffs and you took advantage of that. Mag Sorc's ward is mostly preemptive versus reactive. So time needs to be spent off of pressure to upkeep it (versus reactively using a burst heal, or applying long timer HoTs).

I'm not saying a MagSorc can't deal damage if you allow them to. I'm saying a great player knows how to avoid a large portion of MagSorc damage.

Magplar at the time was so tanky it didn’t need to dodge roll. @Cloudrest was just in a full damage build with zero defense so she appeared to be taking more damage than usual.

Against a tankier magplar like Keeper, ElusiveShady (console transfer), or Shoyru who still have phenomenal damage whilst being tanky, there’s no need to dodge. In fact I’ve never seen them dodge a single Cfrag because they don’t need to.

So no, it wasn’t necessary to dodge those Cfrags if you’re confident you can tank through it. I also don’t roll dodge a templar’s offense if I have Caltrops and decent movement speed on my stamsorc. I just move out of the way lol.

StaticWave

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

deejayvee wrote: »

Yeah, because the only people who should be able to enjoy playing this game are those who put in the time, effort and dedication, right?

Not saying Warden or some classes didn't need buffs, but ZOS making the game easier and handing out unnecessary buffs is why we have this everlasting issue of class imbalance.

FYI, if ZOS ever went ahead and buffed Sorc, the top end sorcs will dominate other classes. The gap between top end and low/medium end sorcs is THAT big.

What’s wrong in that ?

A top end player on any class is supposed to dominate everyone else

The player has put in time and effort and should be rewarded right ?

Besides we are talking about top 1% of the players here.

I don’t see a problem if they are unkillable or whatever

"A top end player on any class is supposed to dominate everyone else" who are at a lower skill level than him, I agree. A top end player on any class shouldn't dominate a top end player on another class just because their class is stronger.

That was my point. The line between making sorc good and making sorc OP is thin. The class has one of the best burst damage in the game, very high mobility with Streak, and good offensive heals. Buffing it to a point where I'm suddenly dominating another top tier player when we used to stalemate before the buff is problematic.

But isn’t that the whole point of buffing sorc?

A mediocre dk or nb can easily dominate a top tier sorc in open world pvp due to really weak or non existent defense

There will be an arcanist class in the future and then we shall have 3 classes which dominate sorc.

It’s easier to buff one class rather than expecting zos to nerf 3 classes.

I don't die to a mediocre dk or nb in openworld. I've dueled too many of them to know how to counter.

Idk how much dueling experience you have, so I'm just going to generalize. When you spend enough time dueling a variety of classes and builds, you learn the best way to counter them AND possible combos they can use to kill you.

The reality is, all players are very predictable (even top tier players). At a certain point, dueling becomes a game of rhythm where you and your opponent take turns trading blows and playing defensive. Whoever wins is the one that can disrupt that rhythm or have better damage.

I have dueled top tier DKs and NBs whom I've survived for a decent amount of time and even managed to stalemate or kill them several times. There is no reason for me to ever die to a mediocre DK or NB under any circumstances that isn't a straight up gank. What's going to happen if those mediocre DKs and NBs try to kill me is 1) I counter all their moves because I know how to by heart, and 2) I kill them.

This is the advantage of playing on a worse class. You die a lot more, so you compensate with better mechanical/movement skills and knowledge. You wouldn't need to compensate if you play on a class that wins all the time.

StaticWave

@PhoenixGrey

For example, this is a clip of me messing around with a group of 5-6 players including a NB and a Warden. I was laughing out loud in real time as I ran around that corner watching them thirst for me. Didn't even need to dodge roll or block, just simply hit W lol.

Obviously it was very hard to kill them with all the cross-healing and how tight they were moving together, but they couldn't kill me either.

At worse case scenario, I would just Streak away and reset the fight. LoS is really a sorc's best friend.

https://youtu.be/BfTWRRnE47o

Bushido2513

Jsmalls wrote: »

MetallicMonk wrote: »

[snip], back to my original point.

Nerf nightblade, nerf Dk, nerf warden, and nerf burst heals.

Let's tone down the ridiculous classes and make people die and pvp fun again.

Now this I can get behind. Also in before <snip> for editing by forum mods.

I also think this is the core of the problem. The 99% aren't killing other players because no one dies in a 1v1 anymore /hyperbole.

But I mean it does have some truth to it...

[Edited for quote]

Facts, I sometimes don't even blame xv1 because in some cases that's the only way people might get a "kill".

Bushido2513

StaticWave wrote: »

@PhoenixGrey

For example, this is a clip of me messing around with a group of 5-6 players including a NB and a Warden. I was laughing out loud in real time as I ran around that corner watching them thirst for me. Didn't even need to dodge roll or block, just simply hit W lol.

Obviously it was very hard to kill them with all the cross-healing and how tight they were moving together, but they couldn't kill me either.

At worse case scenario, I would just Streak away and reset the fight. LoS is really a sorc's best friend.

https://youtu.be/BfTWRRnE47o

Ahhhh I miss a good kite! Look forward to getting back into the game and getting chased around again someday 😁

StaticWave

@Bushido2513 @Jsmalls

I don't think you guys and us will ever understand each other's experience because we play on different platforms. On PC there is much more PvP population, addons, and better camera speed. It's not the same on console.

I think the best way to buff this class is by fixing its defense. There's no need to give it more damage.

Bushido2513

StaticWave wrote: »

@Bushido2513 @Jsmalls

I don't think you guys and us will ever understand each other's experience because we play on different platforms. On PC there is much more PvP population, addons, and better camera speed. It's not the same on console.

I think the best way to buff this class is by fixing its defense. There's no need to give it more damage.

You got me there! The decline in population was very noticable as it set in over time. Gets boring fighting the same names and Cyro is complete garbage on console.



No question on the add-ons either. Though I wouldn't say I feel it's like night and day for me either. I was a pc gamer long before I ever touched a console so I totally get what you're saying. I just have friends that play on console so it is what it is.

I also work on computers all day so I might be biased.

Jsmalls

@StaticWave

This account is linked to Xbox, but I play on PC now. Difference was night and day on fluidity of PC versus Console, but I still use a controller just with a camera accelerator addon.

That being said I prefer no CP because I feel it's more balanced. Doesn't mean I won't duel outside of Stormhaven though from time to time, but I'm not throwing on meta CP gear for it, I bring the same stuff that works in No CP. But don't get me wrong my CP setup is still up there in terms of stats. We made that comparison before.

I'm not saying I'm top 1% in dueling, but I'm a damn good Open world small scale player. I've also played the game on and off since console release and have mained a Mag Sorc that entire time so I know A LOT about the class.

Presenting my observations with my experiences just like anyone else.

StaticWave wrote: »

Jsmalls wrote: »

@Cloudrest

I can't speak for the scenario that lead up to that clip, but I do have to ask why you didn't dodge roll and breath of life to recover. From what I can see Metallic has curse, frag, crushing shock, and destructive reach on. Disregarding that 2/4 of those abilities are not class related, 3/4 of them are projectiles. If you Roll dodge cancel a heal its going to give you 2 gcds for HoTs and burst heals to recover only having to deal with curse (which I'm sure you're purging). Maybe you were out of stamina idk but that's a your sustain thing, not a Mag Sorc OP thing. And a lot of that damage was chosen to be face tanked versus mitigated by other means.

Secondly notice how Metallic stayed on the offensive and died for it. He dropped his ward and likely some buffs and you took advantage of that. Mag Sorc's ward is mostly preemptive versus reactive. So time needs to be spent off of pressure to upkeep it (versus reactively using a burst heal, or applying long timer HoTs).

I'm not saying a MagSorc can't deal damage if you allow them to. I'm saying a great player knows how to avoid a large portion of MagSorc damage.

Magplar at the time was so tanky it didn’t need to dodge roll. @Cloudrest was just in a full damage build with zero defense so she appeared to be taking more damage than usual.

Against a tankier magplar like Keeper, ElusiveShady (console transfer), or Shoyru who still have phenomenal damage whilst being tanky, there’s no need to dodge. In fact I’ve never seen them dodge a single Cfrag because they don’t need to.

So no, it wasn’t necessary to dodge those Cfrags if you’re confident you can tank through it. I also don’t roll dodge a templar’s offense if I have Caltrops and decent movement speed on my stamsorc. I just move out of the way lol.

Feel like you're contradicting yourself with each statement. You say a tanky Magplar doesn't need to roll (plausible) then you also said Cloudrest was in a full damage setup and therefore wasn't tanky (would benefit from rolling). That being said if the setup isn't built for rolling AT ALL as in one roll is going to put your stamina pool in critical I don't really think that's a fair judgement on the pressure a Sorc would be applying in real world conditions. It's just too specific of a scenario to say "I dare anyone to say Sorc doesn't have pressure" well yeah under that SPECIFIC circumstance where a key damage mitigation tactic is being disregarded, against a FULL DAMAGE setup, sure Mag Sorc has pressure when all those stars align. How often does that happen in duels without rules and open world though?

Edit:

Id also like to state Sorc in a duel where both players are forgoing defense for offense I would say Sorc has an advantage in. The whole problem with Mag Sorc (in my opinion) is the lack of tools to deal with high health, high mitigation players (whicg is the meta). If I setup a burst for 25k (not easy) and they still have 10k health remaining, that's 3 spammables away from finishing them. The opponent has 3-5 business days to react when in danger, and the first thing a player usually does out of reaction is dodge rolling (nullifying most future damage).

Bushido2513

Jsmalls wrote: »

That being said I prefer no CP because I feel it's more balanced. Doesn't mean I won't duel outside of Stormhaven though from time to time, but I'm not throwing on meta CP gear for it, I bring the same stuff that works in No CP. But don't get me wrong my CP setup is still up there in terms of stats. We made that comparison before.

.

Oh snap, I totally realized I forgot to include no cp in any thoughts about balance. Mind blown on that one!

StaticWave

Jsmalls wrote: »

@StaticWave

This account is linked to Xbox, but I play on PC now. Difference was night and day on fluidity of PC versus Console, but I still use a controller just with a camera accelerator addon.

That being said I prefer no CP because I feel it's more balanced. Doesn't mean I won't duel outside of Stormhaven though from time to time, but I'm not throwing on meta CP gear for it, I bring the same stuff that works in No CP. But don't get me wrong my CP setup is still up there in terms of stats. We made that comparison before.

I'm not saying I'm top 1% in dueling, but I'm a damn good Open world small scale player. I've also played the game on and off since console release and have mained a Mag Sorc that entire time so I know A LOT about the class.

Presenting my observations with my experiences just like anyone else.

StaticWave wrote: »

Jsmalls wrote: »

@Cloudrest

I can't speak for the scenario that lead up to that clip, but I do have to ask why you didn't dodge roll and breath of life to recover. From what I can see Metallic has curse, frag, crushing shock, and destructive reach on. Disregarding that 2/4 of those abilities are not class related, 3/4 of them are projectiles. If you Roll dodge cancel a heal its going to give you 2 gcds for HoTs and burst heals to recover only having to deal with curse (which I'm sure you're purging). Maybe you were out of stamina idk but that's a your sustain thing, not a Mag Sorc OP thing. And a lot of that damage was chosen to be face tanked versus mitigated by other means.

Secondly notice how Metallic stayed on the offensive and died for it. He dropped his ward and likely some buffs and you took advantage of that. Mag Sorc's ward is mostly preemptive versus reactive. So time needs to be spent off of pressure to upkeep it (versus reactively using a burst heal, or applying long timer HoTs).

I'm not saying a MagSorc can't deal damage if you allow them to. I'm saying a great player knows how to avoid a large portion of MagSorc damage.

Magplar at the time was so tanky it didn’t need to dodge roll. @Cloudrest was just in a full damage build with zero defense so she appeared to be taking more damage than usual.

Against a tankier magplar like Keeper, ElusiveShady (console transfer), or Shoyru who still have phenomenal damage whilst being tanky, there’s no need to dodge. In fact I’ve never seen them dodge a single Cfrag because they don’t need to.

So no, it wasn’t necessary to dodge those Cfrags if you’re confident you can tank through it. I also don’t roll dodge a templar’s offense if I have Caltrops and decent movement speed on my stamsorc. I just move out of the way lol.

Feel like you're contradicting yourself with each statement. You say a tanky Magplar doesn't need to roll (plausible) then you also said Cloudrest was in a full damage setup and therefore wasn't tanky (would benefit from rolling). That being said if the setup isn't built for rolling AT ALL as in one roll is going to put your stamina pool in critical I don't really think that's a fair judgement on the pressure a Sorc would be applying in real world conditions. It's just too specific of a scenario to say "I dare anyone to say Sorc doesn't have pressure" well yeah under that SPECIFIC circumstance where a key damage mitigation tactic is being disregarded, against a FULL DAMAGE setup, sure Mag Sorc has pressure when all those stars align. How often does that happen in duels without rules and open world though?

Edit:

Id also like to state Sorc in a duel where both players are forgoing defense for offense I would say Sorc has an advantage in. The whole problem with Mag Sorc (in my opinion) is the lack of tools to deal with high health, high mitigation players (whicg is the meta). If I setup a burst for 25k (not easy) and they still have 10k health remaining, that's 3 spammables away from finishing them. The opponent has 3-5 business days to react when in danger, and the first thing a player usually does out of reaction is dodge rolling (nullifying most future damage).

@Jsmalls

Nope I didn’t contradict myself at all. Cloudrest was the only magplar that ran zero defense (4 damage CPs, < 25k resistances, and little impen) All other top end magplars that participated in the tournaments had over 28k resistances and 2 defensive CPs with all impen.

That’s why Cloudrest took so much damage. When MetallicMonk dueled the other magplars the mitigation difference was very noticeable. I’ve also dueled all of those magplars including Cloudrest and she was the only magplar that I legitimately could 1 shot on my stamsorc. The rest took 2-3 rotations to kill if I was lucky and they rarely needed to dodge roll at all. They would just block my ultimate and ignore the rest of my damage.

In a real world situation I would say magsorc has a kite advantage and can apply pressure at range. I’m speaking from experience playing a stamsorc with much less magicka to use Streak. If I can get to LoS in time, I usually don’t have issue against the current OP classes like DK or NB even if both of them are trying to kill me. I linked a video in my previous comment showing how I kited 6 people with a NB and Warden in it. I can also kill them if I use the right build.

Now it maybe different for magsorc since they move slower, but they also have more mag to Streak to higher ground. This is where magsorc can take advantage of the tricks with Streak (Streak Jump, Streak + direction change mid air, increase Streak distance) to juke people.

If executing people is a problem then I think we need to just address the HP inflation. It is too easy to stack 40k+ HP and barely lose out on damage. It is also too easy to stack damage and 1 shot people now. HP and dmg inflation is a real thing. We need to address the stat creep before address the class.

Bushido2513

StaticWave wrote: »

If executing people is a problem then I think we need to just address the HP inflation. It is too easy to stack 40k+ HP and barely lose out on damage. It is also too easy to stack damage and 1 shot people now. HP and dmg inflation is a real thing. We need to address the stat creep before address the class.

The hp problem is also a side effect of dying to lag or being zerged. Being zerged is one thing but dying because you run just the right amount of health but couldn't break free or perform some other vital function is annoying.

Obviously that's only an issue for some players/classes but still.

The_Titan_Tim

This conversation has derailed into semantics so heavily, it’s apparent both parties have different opinions and there’s no chance of convincing either/or.

When middle ground can’t be met, there’s zero chance for a resolution.

Try to find a one, instead of failing repeatedly to explain why in each of your experiences, the other is wrong.

TechMaybeHic

The_Titan_Tim wrote: »

This conversation has derailed into semantics so heavily, it’s apparent both parties have different opinions and there’s no chance of convincing either/or.

When middle ground can’t be met, there’s zero chance for a resolution.

Try to find a one, instead of failing repeatedly to explain why in each of your experiences, the other is wrong.

Their lack of middle ground has nothing to do with a chance for resolution. ZOS does what they do regardless

The_Titan_Tim

My contribution to this topic is…

As of Update 37:

• Sorcerer is fine.
• Templar is fine.
• Necromancer is fine.
• Warden is fine.
• Dragonknight is broken.
• Magicka Nightblade is broken.

The_Titan_Tim

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

The_Titan_Tim wrote: »

This conversation has derailed into semantics so heavily, it’s apparent both parties have different opinions and there’s no chance of convincing either/or.

When middle ground can’t be met, there’s zero chance for a resolution.

Try to find a one, instead of failing repeatedly to explain why in each of your experiences, the other is wrong.

Their lack of middle ground has nothing to do with a chance for resolution. ZOS does what they do regardless

A resolution to their endless debate.
As it completely hijacked the thread.

The_Titan_Tim

When Dragonknight either gets more sustain hits, a nerf to Coagulating Blood, or half of its free passive mitigation removed, maybe all three of them along with Magicka Nightblade’s ridiculous self-heal capability removed, other classes won’t feel nearly half as bad as they do currently.

It’s easy to look at a Dragonknight or Magicka Nightblade and say Sorcerer is trash.

Bushido2513

The_Titan_Tim wrote: »

This conversation has derailed into semantics so heavily, it’s apparent both parties have different opinions and there’s no chance of convincing either/or.

When middle ground can’t be met, there’s zero chance for a resolution.

Try to find a one, instead of failing repeatedly to explain why in each of your experiences, the other is wrong.

This has basically already been said a few times and I've even commented on this. At this point it's just a place for people to vent and just throw comments at each other.

The idea what ZOS would likely ever read this other than to moderate has long passed.

I am finding the different perspectives interesting though!

The_Titan_Tim

Bushido2513 wrote: »

The_Titan_Tim wrote: »

This conversation has derailed into semantics so heavily, it’s apparent both parties have different opinions and there’s no chance of convincing either/or.

When middle ground can’t be met, there’s zero chance for a resolution.

Try to find a one, instead of failing repeatedly to explain why in each of your experiences, the other is wrong.

This has basically already been said a few times and I've even commented on this. At this point it's just a place for people to vent and just throw comments at each other.

The idea what ZOS would likely ever read this other than to moderate has long passed.

I am finding the different perspectives interesting though!

Different perspectives need room to breathe, it’s derailed so heavily that anyone new to this thread has to go back pages just to see perspectives.

Bushido2513

The_Titan_Tim wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

The_Titan_Tim wrote: »

This conversation has derailed into semantics so heavily, it’s apparent both parties have different opinions and there’s no chance of convincing either/or.

When middle ground can’t be met, there’s zero chance for a resolution.

Try to find a one, instead of failing repeatedly to explain why in each of your experiences, the other is wrong.

This has basically already been said a few times and I've even commented on this. At this point it's just a place for people to vent and just throw comments at each other.

The idea what ZOS would likely ever read this other than to moderate has long passed.

I am finding the different perspectives interesting though!

Different perspectives need room to breathe, it’s derailed so heavily that anyone new to this thread has to go back pages just to see perspectives.

No room for that in this particular subject unfortunately.

The only thing that's truly been demonstrated in this thread is just how many different ways people play and feel about sorc.

I think that says a lot in itself that it's not like other classes that are a bit more straightforward.

For a long time now sorc has been a class that requires a player that cares to and knows how to play it to really get the most out of it. Above all else I'm seeing that people care about sorc one way or another and I appreciate it being that is my favorite class due to the aforementioned, even if it does leave me hanging at times.

PhoenixGrey

StaticWave wrote: »

@PhoenixGrey

For example, this is a clip of me messing around with a group of 5-6 players including a NB and a Warden. I was laughing out loud in real time as I ran around that corner watching them thirst for me. Didn't even need to dodge roll or block, just simply hit W lol.

Obviously it was very hard to kill them with all the cross-healing and how tight they were moving together, but they couldn't kill me either.

At worse case scenario, I would just Streak away and reset the fight. LoS is really a sorc's best friend.

https://youtu.be/BfTWRRnE47o

This fight is not a win for me. If 5-6 players could not kill you then they are perfect 1vX candidates

If you had 5 seconds to hold your ground you could’ve won that fight. Shoddy heals coupled with weak shields and no passive defense does not give you an inch of breathing space which is exactly why I m screaming for sorc buffs

I would have won that fight on my mag sorc 3 years back. Same way a competent dk or nb would have won it right now

PhoenixGrey

StaticWave wrote: »

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

deejayvee wrote: »

Yeah, because the only people who should be able to enjoy playing this game are those who put in the time, effort and dedication, right?

Not saying Warden or some classes didn't need buffs, but ZOS making the game easier and handing out unnecessary buffs is why we have this everlasting issue of class imbalance.

FYI, if ZOS ever went ahead and buffed Sorc, the top end sorcs will dominate other classes. The gap between top end and low/medium end sorcs is THAT big.

What’s wrong in that ?

A top end player on any class is supposed to dominate everyone else

The player has put in time and effort and should be rewarded right ?

Besides we are talking about top 1% of the players here.

I don’t see a problem if they are unkillable or whatever

"A top end player on any class is supposed to dominate everyone else" who are at a lower skill level than him, I agree. A top end player on any class shouldn't dominate a top end player on another class just because their class is stronger.

That was my point. The line between making sorc good and making sorc OP is thin. The class has one of the best burst damage in the game, very high mobility with Streak, and good offensive heals. Buffing it to a point where I'm suddenly dominating another top tier player when we used to stalemate before the buff is problematic.

But isn’t that the whole point of buffing sorc?

A mediocre dk or nb can easily dominate a top tier sorc in open world pvp due to really weak or non existent defense

There will be an arcanist class in the future and then we shall have 3 classes which dominate sorc.

It’s easier to buff one class rather than expecting zos to nerf 3 classes.

I don't die to a mediocre dk or nb in openworld. I've dueled too many of them to know how to counter.

Idk how much dueling experience you have, so I'm just going to generalize. When you spend enough time dueling a variety of classes and builds, you learn the best way to counter them AND possible combos they can use to kill you.

The reality is, all players are very predictable (even top tier players). At a certain point, dueling becomes a game of rhythm where you and your opponent take turns trading blows and playing defensive. Whoever wins is the one that can disrupt that rhythm or have better damage.

I have dueled top tier DKs and NBs whom I've survived for a decent amount of time and even managed to stalemate or kill them several times. There is no reason for me to ever die to a mediocre DK or NB under any circumstances that isn't a straight up gank. What's going to happen if those mediocre DKs and NBs try to kill me is 1) I counter all their moves because I know how to by heart, and 2) I kill them.

This is the advantage of playing on a worse class. You die a lot more, so you compensate with better mechanical/movement skills and knowledge. You wouldn't need to compensate if you play on a class that wins all the time.

I was talking about outnumbered gameplay not dueling

A mediocre dk or a nb zergling poses significant problems even for a top tier sorc.

Bushido2513

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

@PhoenixGrey

For example, this is a clip of me messing around with a group of 5-6 players including a NB and a Warden. I was laughing out loud in real time as I ran around that corner watching them thirst for me. Didn't even need to dodge roll or block, just simply hit W lol.

Obviously it was very hard to kill them with all the cross-healing and how tight they were moving together, but they couldn't kill me either.

At worse case scenario, I would just Streak away and reset the fight. LoS is really a sorc's best friend.

https://youtu.be/BfTWRRnE47o

This fight is not a win for me. If 5-6 players could not kill you then they are perfect 1vX candidates

If you had 5 seconds to hold your ground you could’ve won that fight. Shoddy heals coupled with weak shields and no passive defense does not give you an inch of breathing space which is exactly why I m screaming for sorc buffs

I would have won that fight on my mag sorc 3 years back. Same way a competent dk or nb would have won it right now

I must be watching a different clip to be honest. That fight was one that could easily turn into an x, easily. The toughest part in a situation like that for me is getting them into the tower since people don't always take the bait these days.

I think a mag sorc could win that fight now depending on build and skill level of course.