I do not want Sorcerer buffs.

Bushido2513

StaticWave wrote: »

I have the same experience as yours when duoing with a magsorc in Cyrodiil. As a melee brawler sorc, I'm usually a meat shield while my magsorc duo sits in the back for ranged support. It's crazy how fast he's able to melt people pounding on me and those sitting far behind the enemy line.

.

Usually groups who are willing to gang up on one player aren't focusing on keeping their buff rotation up so when someone hits them it's usually even harder than they normally would take the hit. Just my observation and for all I know the people in these scenarios had their buffs up, were getting heals and still didn't make it. Depends on the sorc build too of course!

TechMaybeHic

Bushido2513 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

I have the same experience as yours when duoing with a magsorc in Cyrodiil. As a melee brawler sorc, I'm usually a meat shield while my magsorc duo sits in the back for ranged support. It's crazy how fast he's able to melt people pounding on me and those sitting far behind the enemy line.

.

Usually groups who are willing to gang up on one player aren't focusing on keeping their buff rotation up so when someone hits them it's usually even harder than they normally would take the hit. Just my observation and for all I know the people in these scenarios had their buffs up, were getting heals and still didn't make it. Depends on the sorc build too of course!

It could be someone I'm actively in 1v1 with. Like on my NB, and I can hit and I'm ust about ready to combo; but then poof, they're gone.

Part of that has to do with their burst lining up and maybe they got there sooner than even I realized. I mean there are times that the sorc is pressured and it kind of prevents the sorc from doing much if we're in a tight space to not use mobility and kite.

I think that's where I'd go for sorc. Probably a burst heal and a passive somewhere would help them not be so LOS (including summons) and kite dependent. Last thing I want is nukes being spammed from a walk though.

StaticWave

Bushido2513 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

@Bushido2513

When there's a community of 20+ people who have the same conclusion, who were also part of a guild that hosted several large tournaments on PC-NA over the past couple years, then I'm pretty sure it's not that subjective anymore.

So in science we do have communities of experts and they always have ideas and things to say. So that they don't sit around and go back and forth they publish verifiable data so that other scientist can verify their findings. It's not enough to say x amount of people saw the same thing if you can't reproduce that thing so that others can test it. So while I understand what you're saying in order for me to get on board you'd have to give me organized data that I could go over in an attempt to reproduce what you're saying. Otherwise what's to stop me from claiming the same thing with a group of people to support my opinions and have us going back and forth?

If you notice, I never say that just because I saw something or did something that it's actually concrete to this game because I respect that no matter what I think, I don't have any concrete data to back it up.

StaticWave wrote: »

@Bushido2513


So let me ask you, how is that based on feelings when the conclusion was based on data and input from multiple people who were willing to help?

Showing the data makes it no longer based on feelings. It's like they say in math show your work. Currently you're basically saying hey I and my team have done tons of number crunching and we've got the results, trust us.

If I told you I did the number crunching and found that sorc was completely in need of every buff suggested in this thread would you just take my word for it or want to see all this detailed number crunching I've done to back up my word?

StaticWave wrote: »

I could argue that people here are more subjective than we were. We did hundreds of tests in a controlled environment, whereas people who complain about sorc having weak damage here are, going by your words, using feelings or perceptions to balance a class. Where is the data to back up their claim that sorc has no pressure? As far as I can tell there is none. On the other hand, we had the some of best players duel against each other, some of whom are very active on the forums like @React, @Cloudrest, @MetallicMonk, etc. Keep in mind, these guys aren't just strictly duelers. They're also 1vXers, smallscallers, largescalers, and even BG players. I'm sure some people have seen React's stream.

I've been one of the first to say that I don't think anyone here has anything other than their experience and that for the most part with the exception of fairly obvious things like let's say frags with burst and low travel time, everyone has ideas that could be worked in if done correctly.

That's pretty much the whole point I've been making, we all want sorc to be a certain way based on our experiences. Now what I can say from the data that's actually in this thread is that more people want changes to sorc than for nothing to be done at all. That's an actual fact that can be verified.

People just can't agree on what those changes should be and that makes sense based on individual desires and experiences.

StaticWave wrote: »

So when we have the majority of decent players agree that sorc has pressure, then I think we need to consider that their experience may hold a lot of weight considering they're playing at the high level.

Again this is something that has yet to and possibly couldn't even be easily proven. I don't say this to be simply argumentative but to be honest about the discussion. The only way anyone could know if a group was the majority and if they were "decent" players would be to know all opinions of all players including their ranking as a player. I've come to have to remind myself over time that I think I know what level of player I am but that it's just a guess since the community is so large and there are platforms I don't even play on.

Organized sports can be an interesting example of this. Some would argue that professional athletes have the best opinions on anything in a given sport because they are well the professionals. People tend to forget that they are just the ones that were given the opportunity to rise to the top because of whatever circumstances. There are still better athletes than the ones we see on camera, they just didn't turn famous for whatever reason.

Likewise in ESO just because someone didn't enter a tournament doesn't mean that they aren't out there with more information and experience than any of us. Twenty plus players is technically just a vocal minority when you factor in the size of the ESO player base.

StaticWave wrote: »

The issue I think you and many others confuse with is you're using two broken classes as a basis for your argument that sorc lacks pressure. They are outliers, and shouldn't be used as an example. DK stomps everything, but that doesn't mean sorc's damage is bad. It's just bad compared to a DK, but against everything else it's very good.

So outliers in that they don't represent the damage for most classes. I could agree to that, seems pretty obvious. Now outliser as far as what I and others run up against when playing the game. That's a whole other debate.

So here's the thing, maybe you don't run up against that many dks, maybe you don't run into good ones, maybe you don't care if you run into 10 of them. My point is that if someone here cares enough to say something then that's what we call a pain point for them. You don't have to share in their pain point but you do have to accept that it's enough of a pain point for I and others to mention. Again this is subjective to my experiences but without hard, extensive, verifiable, repeatable data sets this whole thread is just people relating their experiences. I'm totally ok with that by the way. I think that we need to get these thoughts out there and maybe ZOS will read all of them and take action as they do or don't see fit.

By the way I could sit here and say to you that DKs are so good, everyone is on DK so that means sorc needs buffs. And in some ways I did say that BUT, I'm not going to say that I have any backing that you should follow, just that it's my opinion based on my experiences so take it with a grain of salt, same as anyone here relating their experiences.

StaticWave wrote: »

That was why I have said multiple times in this thread that magsorc couldn't win a tournament because magplar or magdk always won. They beat everything else, but the fact that magsorc got to top 2/3 meant it could become top 1 if we fix the overperforming classes.

I would agree with this and the reason I'm here and not in a nerf dk or nb thread is because it's pretty clear ZOS isn't yet on that path of thinking and well there are plenty of other people supporting that opinion already. So I'm just here talking about the other side of things. If they don't want to nerf the heavy hitters then how about some buffs for the guy in the number 3 spot?

Again I never said that I know that things should go one way or another but change starts with ideas so I'm just here to give my opinion and keep an open mind.

I would gladly participate in a large-scale test to determine if sorc truly needs a damage buff. Now it’s up to other people to participate, especially the ones that want sorc buffs.

I think in ESO, everyone is given a fair chance to improve themselves. Gold is quite easy to get in the game and gear can be farmed. Even if one has only 1 hour to play each day, that one hour can still be dedicated to strictly PvP. Fortunately the learning curve in this game is not that high, so within a couple weeks one can grasp a decent understanding of the class. What I wonder is how much time they put in to work on their skills with the class. Zerging isn’t going to help.

Regardless, carefully buffing heals is the only way to truly bridge the gap between casual and high end players. Most casuals struggle to survive, so giving them better defense will close that gap.

Bushido2513

StaticWave wrote: »

I would gladly participate in a large-scale test to determine if sorc truly needs a damage buff. Now it’s up to other people to participate, especially the ones that want sorc buffs.

I think in ESO, everyone is given a fair chance to improve themselves. Gold is quite easy to get in the game and gear can be farmed. Even if one has only 1 hour to play each day, that one hour can still be dedicated to strictly PvP. Fortunately the learning curve in this game is not that high, so within a couple weeks one can grasp a decent understanding of the class. What I wonder is how much time they put in to work on their skills with the class. Zerging isn’t going to help.

Regardless, carefully buffing heals is the only way to truly bridge the gap between casual and high end players. Most casuals struggle to survive, so giving them better defense will close that gap.

Any testing we do that isn't setup by ZOS when it comes to PvP would likely be invalid to ZOS or just wouldn't matter anytime soon unless it already worked within their existing vision.

I just put it here and hope it helps really.

Well better heals just helps the class overall.

So I'm regards to bridging the gap, I don't think that's what ZOS cares about here and if they do I look forward to sorc updates.

I think they made a class or classes that can be played very casually as well as item sets that let you play most any class casually when built correctly though granted this steers casuals towards zergs which I'm totally fine with.

I suppose what I'm interested in when I speak of buffing damage is perhaps giving the experienced players more options with sorc. Again I'd take damage or healing buffs, just saying either could work.

This still leaves casuals with multiple options in regards to easy classes/gear to play that can survive.

Obviously this isn't exactly balance but I'm working with what ZOS is giving me and just saying I'm open to any buffs to a class I'd like to enjoy more.

MetallicMonk

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Now I just have to ask and NB is where , under these two?

Hard to say in a matter of fact way because I haven't seen every single build of course, you could definitely make a more pressure/dot oriented nb build. As far as the current meta builds go though nb can have ok pressure but it's not amazing; it's a camp healing and have the biggest burst in the game class. My perspective also makes that reinforced because I'm a sorc and have high pressure and by nature am parsing on them forcing them to have to heal.

Nb generally are probably around 2k-2.5k dps in a duel, 3k+ if you're playing very aggressive and possibly more if you're running zaans etc. Pressure classes can do around 4-5k and even more than that with things like zaans and going against classes without purges mitigating damage.

So I really don't know where to rank them after DK and sorc, but without making a specific pressure focused nb build currently while being absurdly good isn't high in the pressure department, and pressure isn't what makes them strong at all.

Bushido2513

MetallicMonk wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Now I just have to ask and NB is where , under these two?

Hard to say in a matter of fact way because I haven't seen every single build of course, you could definitely make a more pressure/dot oriented nb build. As far as the current meta builds go though nb can have ok pressure but it's not amazing; it's a camp healing and have the biggest burst in the game class. My perspective also makes that reinforced because I'm a sorc and have high pressure and by nature am parsing on them forcing them to have to heal.

Nb generally are probably around 2k-2.5k dps in a duel, 3k+ if you're playing very aggressive and possibly more if you're running zaans etc. Pressure classes can do around 4-5k and even more than that with things like zaans and going against classes without purges mitigating damage.

So I really don't know where to rank them after DK and sorc, but without making a specific pressure focused nb build currently while being absurdly good isn't high in the pressure department, and pressure isn't what makes them strong at all.

I would rank them right under DK but I admit that this is just what I'm seeing and I don't have any numbers or anything to back that up.

I think we might be getting into a weird zone by using terms like pressure and burst. In my opinion pressure is just burst that you were able to mitigate. I mean either way you will spend resources to deal with the situation. Burst just seems like pressure that couldn't be dealt with.

My point in saying that is that I think it's important to understand that damage that can burst one person can be just considered pressure to another person.

So in the case of the NB I suppose it seems like they are just bursting opponents with a high window of damage but they do have a spamable and their burst damage could become pressure if your defense is good enough. Just my thoughts though.

MetallicMonk

Pressure is basically dps in a PvP scenario, nightblade is very low pressure, you're not constantly forced into healing from nb, their damage comes in small windows. It is a noticeable difference when a nb is hitting you compared to something like a dk or sorc. A nb can one shot you sure but you're not constantly dipping to below 50% for the entire fight like you are against a pressure class.

This is the same reason why sea serpent's coil has very poor uptime against a dk or sorc compared to a nightblade, because those 2 classes with high pressure make it much more unlikely you will be topping yourself off consistently.

Bushido2513

MetallicMonk wrote: »

Pressure is basically dps in a PvP scenario, nightblade is very low pressure, you're not constantly forced into healing from nb, their damage comes in small windows. It is a noticeable difference when a nb is hitting you compared to something like a dk or sorc. A nb can one shot you sure but you're not constantly dipping to below 50% for the entire fight like you are against a pressure class.

Got it but I will say this also depends on the build and playstyle of the nb you are facing. Also depends on the build, class, and skill level of the person playing against the nb. This is why I say maybe it's not easy to just call something a pressure or burst class because it depends on many other factors. You might say constantly dip below 50 if you're on a class with a burst heal and let's say you don't block that much or otherwise take damage in a way that doesn't kill you and that you're comfortable with.

MetallicMonk wrote: »

This is the same reason why sea serpent's coil has very poor uptime against a dk or sorc compared to a nightblade, because those 2 classes with high pressure make it much more unlikely you will be topping yourself off consistently.

Again this depends on your opponent. It's not impossible to have high uptime on ssc if you make your build and playstyle revolve around toping off, also class of course makes a big difference. Again, there are many scenarios and choices available to player in pvp so I don't know if a one size fits all metric like this really applies.

I could see judging fight by fight but not just throwing a blanket statement out there to say you have pressure and you have burst. The game has become almost too homogenized to do that at this point.

MetallicMonk

I mean I'm sorry there is a difference. While you're correct things can be build and playstyle dependent which I mentioned, things start to become easier to say after a certain testing pool has happened.

I've fought a massive amount of nightblades in cyro and in duels and they just never have noticeable pressure, it is very easy to distinguish pressure from burst especially in a class like that which has very little pressure and massive burst.

When 999/1000 nightblades have very average pressure the blanket statement applies. Also it's not just my opinion it is just an objective fact that SSC is harder to maintain good uptimes on in a fight when high dps is being applied to you, which is what sorc and DK do.

Bushido2513

MetallicMonk wrote: »

I mean I'm sorry there is a difference. While you're correct things can be build and playstyle dependent which I mentioned, things start to become easier to say after a certain testing pool has happened.

I've fought a massive amount of nightblades in cyro and in duels and they just never have noticeable pressure, it is very easy to distinguish pressure from burst especially in a class like that which has very little pressure and massive burst.

When 999/1000 nightblades have very average pressure the blanket statement applies. Also it's not just my opinion it is just an objective fact that SSC is harder to maintain good uptimes on in a fight when high dps is being applied to you, which is what sorc and DK do.

Ok I'll take your information as fact. Please just direct me to where I can go to look up the data on your findings or am I just taking your word for this? Because sorry to say but I wasn't sitting behind you or otherwise there to see all the fights you've been in so for me without any verifiable data they are just secondhand assertions. Obviously I've made my own assertions to some degree I'm just not going to tell you that they are facts or anything near facts because I really don't have the data to back them up.

Ok so let's go into some things. Do you have clips of your catalogued fights with 999 nightblades where I can see the fight, your build, and their build including cp and such?

So the only fact is that if enough damage is being done that isn't mitigated or healed through then you won't be able to proc SSC. That is as much about the damage being done to you as the ability to respond to that damage. But any combination of class vs class can say this depending on the builds.

So let me say this in a simpler way. If you're just going to use generalizations and blanket statements to back up your assertions then I'll treat them as such.

Again, I'm not saying you're right or I'm wrong. Just that you haven't given me any absolute proof of anything really.

MetallicMonk

I didn't say my opinion was fact, I said keeping good uptimes on SSC against high pressure/dps being more difficult is a fact.

[snip]

[edited for baiting]

Bushido2513

MetallicMonk wrote: »

I didn't say my opinion was fact, I said keeping good uptimes on SSC against high pressure/dps being more difficult is a fact.

[snip]

You're correct, I misunderstood but since you're saying everything other than the SSC comment is your opinion then I'm ok with that.

But let's just remember that we are all sharing opinions and therefore all that we're saying carries the same weight and validity, or lack there of overall.

[edited quote]

StaticWave

@Bushido2513

We're just going circles at this point. I appreciate that you brought up builds, skill level, and class difference because they do matter. However, I think you're assuming that everybody you encounter are going to have the healing and defense to survive a sorc.

First of all, pressure is pressure. If I can deal 4.5k DPS, which is an elite level pressure in PvP, then I have high pressure. It doesn't matter if some guy has a build that can heal for 4.5k HPS and take zero damage. The fact of the matter is I am still doing 4.5k DPS, a very very hard number to reach for in a PvP setting. To get a number higher than that, you would need to be in a PvE build.

Second of all, the majority of players you and I encounter are casuals and will not be using min-maxed builds. That 4.5k DPS will kill the majority of players, and that is a fact. It's the outliers that can survive, and I can confidently say that those who survive 4.5k DPS will also lack damage to kill you.

I noticed you play on PS4, so you most likely don't have access to addons like CMX that can record data of every fight. CMX is an addon that's used by PvErs to analyze their parse and even has an option to show damage in real time. Basically, I can collect data from every single PvP encounter with this neat little addon. If I'm fighting 5 people, the addon records damage taken from each person, as well as my damage dealt on each person. It can also record my uptime on healing, buffs, debuffs, what kind of debuffs were applied on me, damage spikes between my offensive intervals, pressure, etc.

When I stated that the dueling community gathered enough data to conclude that sorc has pressure, we meant the majority of the fights recorded by CMX showed a DPS of over 3.5k, sometimes reaching 4k-4.5k for the sorc.

Now you mentioned builds being a factor for pressure, I agree. The conclusion that sorc has pressure was made after observing hundreds of fights in a controlled environment where broken sets were banned. I can make an assumption that if people were allowed to use tanky sets, sorc DPS would drop by around 500-800. This won't make their pressure bad though because they can still reach a respectable 3k DPS.

Skill wise, I also agree that it is an important factor to maximize a sorc's ability to deliver damage. Hence why I've stated many times that the gap between casual and high end sorc players is huge. If your argument is about the easiness of pressure delivery that DK has compared to a sorc at the casual level, then I agree. DKs are very easy to play for a casual player.

However, I don't think a NB is easier to play than a sorc at the casual level. NB and sorc heavily rely on burst to deal damage, and casual players most often don't get their burst timing down right. Keep in mind, a NB literally only has 2 offensive abilities, so if a casual player can't combo their damage correctly, they have zero chance of killing anybody half decent.

Bushido2513

StaticWave wrote: »

@Bushido2513

We're just going circles at this point.

Yes it's usually that way when we're talking about mostly opinions. I take into account your cmx data but that's also why we have things like Google, Splunk, and to some degree ChatGPT. Data needs to be sorted into a presentable format before it can really be considered. So I don't doubt you or anyone else has logs but without some system to place them in a fashion where they can be consumed verified, tested, and consumed by others it's hard to make much of what they mean. And please take that from me a person that from time to time has to look at and evaluate the usefulness of a given data set. I can totally buy into organized data that supports a premise and that can be tested against for verification.

StaticWave wrote: »

However, I think you're assuming that everybody you encounter are going to have the healing and defense to survive a sorc.

Actually this is an interesting point, it's not who I encounter so much as who I actively seek to fight. So usually for me I will go around IC and kill off potatoes or pretty much fight anyone I've seen. If I've already killed someone and determined I could probably easily do it again or basically that I won't learn anything by fighting them then I usually just pass them by. I tend to look for groups and players that I struggle against. So of course when you hunt big game you usually want the right tools is all I'm saying. I look for hard hitting players and I usually fight them over and over again because I can learn if there's counterplay or what seems to make their build tick and how to make my build better.

So in effect usually my targets are harder to kill be it one good player on a good class or multiple player healing each other and dividing my damage up/ making me have to kite a bit.

StaticWave wrote: »

First of all, pressure is pressure. If I can deal 4.5k DPS, which is an elite level pressure in PvP, then I have high pressure. It doesn't matter if some guy has a build that can heal for 4.5k HPS and take zero damage. The fact of the matter is I am still doing 4.5k DPS, a very very hard number to reach for in a PvP setting. To get a number higher than that, you would need to be in a PvE build.

You are correct, you did damage but then if you're using the definition of pressure to say that you damage someone's health and they responded then everyone has pressure no? And in saying that even bringing up pressure would then be fairly meaningless.

In effect if all you did was cause someone to heal then that's actually more of a cause and effect scenario.

I think of pressure like this, pressure causes you to influence your enemies actions in a way that pushes them closer to your goals and away from theirs. For me if I do damage that you can heal through then now we're at a 1/1 ratio which doesn't really help me unless your heal is costing more resources then my damage. Otherwise I can't really make you do anything and the match is just a draw which we do have a lot of going on these days for various reasons.

In other words if I'm not actually pressuring you how can I be said to have pressure? If you like the firearms scenario, if you're shooting a high powered rifle at at a heavily armored tank and the rounds have no effect are you really pressuring that tank?

StaticWave wrote: »

@Bushido2513

Second of all, the majority of players you and I encounter are casuals and will not be using min-maxed builds. That 4.5k DPS will kill the majority of players, and that is a fact. It's the outliers that can survive, and I can confidently say that those who survive 4.5k DPS will also lack damage to kill you.

I would be inclined to agree about the level of casuals though a single casual isn't usually my target. I look for a group so that the odds are bit more even. So yes if I single them out I'll probably kill them but I'm looking at a situation where as I try to kill them their friend comes out of stealth or a dk on their team targets me. I don't have much interest in killing solo potatoes or tanks, not much to learn there, for me anyways.

StaticWave wrote: »

I noticed you play on PS4, so you most likely don't have access to addons like CMX that can record data of every fight. CMX is an addon that's used by PvErs to analyze their parse and even has an option to show damage in real time. Basically, I can collect data from every single PvP encounter with this neat little addon. If I'm fighting 5 people, the addon records damage taken from each person, as well as my damage dealt on each person. It can also record my uptime on healing, buffs, debuffs, what kind of debuffs were applied on me, damage spikes between my offensive intervals, pressure, etc.

When I stated that the dueling community gathered enough data to conclude that sorc has pressure, we meant the majority of the fights recorded by CMX showed a DPS of over 3.5k, sometimes reaching 4k-4.5k for the sorc.

I'm a big fan of Excel sheets and such so if you had all that data collected and summarized in a spreadsheet or even database I'd be very interested to look at it. And correct I don't have access to CMX or any addon's really though I was aware of CMX and what it could do to some degree.

I'm not even joking though, summarize your findings and publish them for all including ZOS to see. The have the data already but it would be interesting for the community to have it. Over the years there have been a few number crunchers that did this and it was very interesting to take in but it has to be presented in a concise manner otherwise nobody is going to take the time to dig through it and try to fill in the blanks.

StaticWave wrote: »

Now you mentioned builds being a factor for pressure, I agree. The conclusion that sorc has pressure was made after observing hundreds of fights in a controlled environment where broken sets were banned. I can make an assumption that if people were allowed to use tanky sets, sorc DPS would drop by around 500-800. This won't make their pressure bad though because they can still reach a respectable 3k DPS.

So I see a bit of a break here because I'm looking at multiple people with tanky sets, maybe a healer, doing damage to me, etc. In that scenario your respectable damage would go even farther down. I mean that's what makes 1vx 1vx but my point is that at the high end you're going to notice more of a change I would think.

Now granted obviously this is my choice to pick hard fights and so it is what it is but this still also means that I may see more of a need for change from others that don't seek the same type of fights. Again I don't want the class to become DK levels of over buffed and easy. I'm saying as I always have been that I'm interested in changes that could give more options at the higher end for outnumbered or outclassed fights without having to crutch so heavily on sets.

So much of sorcs ability to be interesting is hindered by the need to crutch on sets and skill lines that are generic because they have to be because they're available to everyone.

StaticWave wrote: »

Skill wise, I also agree that it is an important factor to maximize a sorc's ability to deliver damage. Hence why I've stated many times that the gap between casual and high end sorc players is huge. If your argument is about the easiness of pressure delivery that DK has compared to a sorc at the casual level, then I agree. DKs are very easy to play for a casual player.

However, I don't think a NB is easier to play than a sorc at the casual level. NB and sorc heavily rely on burst to deal damage, and casual players most often don't get their burst timing down right. Keep in mind, a NB literally only has 2 offensive abilities, so if a casual player can't combo their damage correctly, they have zero chance of killing anybody half decent.

Yeah that tracks, I easily kill casual nightblades but nightblades that knew how to pilot a nightblade before the buffs can be a bit much for me. Again note that I'm not speaking of a single nightblade, even a good one of those I can usually manage. When I get hit by nighblades it's usually good ones and at least 2 of them in tag team fashion and specked for damage.

I can get my hits in and streak but this is when they have a great burst heal, hots, cloak, etc. Again I choose the hard fights so that's on me but that's also why I'm looking for buffs of either damage, healing, or the overall kit.

Bushido2513

StaticWave wrote: »

@Bushido2513


First of all, pressure is pressure. If I can deal 4.5k DPS, which is an elite level pressure in PvP, then I have high pressure. It doesn't matter if some guy has a build that can heal for 4.5k HPS and take zero damage. The fact of the matter is I am still doing 4.5k DPS, a very very hard number to reach for in a PvP setting. To get a number higher than that, you would need to be in a PvE build.

@StaticWave

I present this theory on its own because I just though of it this morning and it gave me a bit of a lightbulb moment that I think is important for the discussion.

I believe what you are describing is your damage output but that this is not pressure but also a metric to be understood in a fight.

Damage is what all classes/players/builds do to some degree or another.

Pressure in my opinion is what results from doing more damage than your opponent can mitigate. This would account for measuring pressure in various levels which is why I was basically saying pressure isn't just pressure.

You can have low pressure where your opponent is at say 80 to 90 percent but can reliably stay there for whatever reason.

Yes your damage is now exceeding their healing however it's not to a point where they will die unless more damage is added equaling higher pressure.

Then you can have high pressure where you have them at 30 percent or so in a range where you can potentially burst them.

This is why when replying to MM earlier I was going into the whole thing about NB having pressure. According to the above NB has damage which can turn into pressure depending on the opponent that then goes to a burst window if everything goes right.

I can see why it would seem easy to just say nb is a burst class and to not think of them as having pressure but I would argue that they do have high pressure depending on the opponent that simply lends itself to burst.

So I think we have all seen a case where say a nb is hitting someone with sa/cw , incaps and whatever else but that person is good enough to block/ heal back to either 90 percent or full. I would say that at that point the nb has damage which is now creating a low level of pressure for that opponent and that if the nb can continue to build upon that pressure then burst will be achieved.

So I would equate a situation where you burst someone right away as damage that enemy did not or could not respond do that basically then skips or quickly moves through the pressure metric to become burst.

I say that to say that anyone can burst someone if those parameters are met but that this doesn't mean that they are burst class, just that the math created a situation where they bypassed the need to create pressure up to a burst window.

Now nb is obviously geared towards burst but my point is that if the fight variables are correct that they can be shown to actually be applying pressure.

So I would say that it's better to always apply measurements to better understand something rather than simplifying it just because it happens at a higher rate of speed.

So in the firearms analogy you have a mac 10 which could be considered a burst weapon at 1,200-1500 rounds/min however once you go beyond the effective range of 50 meters or so you begin to lose burst potential because fewer rounds will make it to target. In a way it could be said that the target is mitigating damage using distance. I'm speaking of like a paper target of course but you get the idea.

I'm just trying to get across that fights need to be measured in more than simplistic terms to come up with elegant innovations to the sorc toolkit.

StaticWave

Bushido2513 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

@Bushido2513


First of all, pressure is pressure. If I can deal 4.5k DPS, which is an elite level pressure in PvP, then I have high pressure. It doesn't matter if some guy has a build that can heal for 4.5k HPS and take zero damage. The fact of the matter is I am still doing 4.5k DPS, a very very hard number to reach for in a PvP setting. To get a number higher than that, you would need to be in a PvE build.

@StaticWave

I present this theory on its own because I just though of it this morning and it gave me a bit of a lightbulb moment that I think is important for the discussion.

I believe what you are describing is your damage output but that this is not pressure but also a metric to be understood in a fight.

Damage is what all classes/players/builds do to some degree or another.

Pressure in my opinion is what results from doing more damage than your opponent can mitigate. This would account for measuring pressure in various levels which is why I was basically saying pressure isn't just pressure.

You can have low pressure where your opponent is at say 80 to 90 percent but can reliably stay there for whatever reason.

Yes your damage is now exceeding their healing however it's not to a point where they will die unless more damage is added equaling higher pressure.

Then you can have high pressure where you have them at 30 percent or so in a range where you can potentially burst them.

This is why when replying to MM earlier I was going into the whole thing about NB having pressure. According to the above NB has damage which can turn into pressure depending on the opponent that then goes to a burst window if everything goes right.

I can see why it would seem easy to just say nb is a burst class and to not think of them as having pressure but I would argue that they do have high pressure depending on the opponent that simply lends itself to burst.

So I think we have all seen a case where say a nb is hitting someone with sa/cw , incaps and whatever else but that person is good enough to block/ heal back to either 90 percent or full. I would say that at that point the nb has damage which is now creating a low level of pressure for that opponent and that if the nb can continue to build upon that pressure then burst will be achieved.

So I would equate a situation where you burst someone right away as damage that enemy did not or could not respond do that basically then skips or quickly moves through the pressure metric to become burst.

I say that to say that anyone can burst someone if those parameters are met but that this doesn't mean that they are burst class, just that the math created a situation where they bypassed the need to create pressure up to a burst window.

Now nb is obviously geared towards burst but my point is that if the fight variables are correct that they can be shown to actually be applying pressure.

So I would say that it's better to always apply measurements to better understand something rather than simplifying it just because it happens at a higher rate of speed.

So in the firearms analogy you have a mac 10 which could be considered a burst weapon at 1,200-1500 rounds/min however once you go beyond the effective range of 50 meters or so you begin to lose burst potential because fewer rounds will make it to target. In a way it could be said that the target is mitigating damage using distance. I'm speaking of like a paper target of course but you get the idea.

I'm just trying to get across that fights need to be measured in more than simplistic terms to come up with elegant innovations to the sorc toolkit.

@Bushido2513 What you're describing about NB is very scenario-specific.

I use data presented by CMX as a measurement for pressure because DPS in PvP is vastly different from DPS in PvE. In PvE, you are just parsing a target for X amount of time with very minimal defensive plays.

However, in PvP, you have to account for defensive intervals where the opponent is counterattacking, or intervals where both of you are simply not attacking for whatever reason. Take this screenshot for example where I achieved a DPS of 3.3k over 2 minutes against a Rallying Cry NB:



Here's the full video of that fight if you wish to watch. It's still uploading at the moment:

https://youtu.be/7lSsaLfw-4U

There were moments in the fight where I played defensive and that brought my DPS down, but overall you could see that I maintained a 3.3k DPS because of 3 factors:

1) I was kiting backwards while doing damage to create more distance for him to travel
2) He is not as experienced as top end NBs in a duel setting
3) He wasn't able to deal as much burst damage to me as he could

A more experienced NB would close the gap a lot quicker and play around Off-Balance to kill me in 2-3 seconds. I also know this, so against an experienced NB I will have lower DPS because I'm usually blocking for the whole duration of Off-Balance. Outside of that Off-Balance window, the NB is not a real threat to me and I can freely pressure him.

So in my experience and definition of pressure, a NB doesn't really have much pressure. What it has is burst intervals where you have to be mindful off, such as Off-Balance every 15 seconds where the NB will attempt to one shot you with a medium weave heavy attack + Incap/Concealed Weapon into a Assassin's Will proc. Outside of that interval, there is very minimal pressure as the NB will most likely be reapplying buffs or trying to avoid your damage.

But I can see why you said a NB has pressure if we go by your definition. I'm forced to play defensive for X amount of time, and that can be defined as pressure. We are both right in this regard. Both our definitions are true in specific scenarios. What I want to ask you is how can we create a universal definition of pressure?

Bushido2513

StaticWave wrote: »

@Bushido2513 What you're describing about NB is very scenario-specific.

I use data presented by CMX as a measurement for pressure because DPS in PvP is vastly different from DPS in PvE. In PvE, you are just parsing a target for X amount of time with very minimal defensive plays.

However, in PvP, you have to account for defensive intervals where the opponent is counterattacking, or intervals where both of you are simply not attacking for whatever reason. Take this screenshot for example where I achieved a DPS of 3.3k over 2 minutes against a Rallying Cry NB:



Here's the full video of that fight if you wish to watch. It's still uploading at the moment:

https://youtu.be/7lSsaLfw-4U

There were moments in the fight where I played defensive and that brought my DPS down, but overall you could see that I maintained a 3.3k DPS because of 3 factors:

1) I was kiting backwards while doing damage to create more distance for him to travel
2) He is not as experienced as top end NBs in a duel setting
3) He wasn't able to deal as much burst damage to me as he could

A more experienced NB would close the gap a lot quicker and play around Off-Balance to kill me in 2-3 seconds. I also know this, so against an experienced NB I will have lower DPS because I'm usually blocking for the whole duration of Off-Balance. Outside of that Off-Balance window, the NB is not a real threat to me and I can freely pressure him.

So in my experience and definition of pressure, a NB doesn't really have much pressure. What it has is burst intervals where you have to be mindful off, such as Off-Balance every 15 seconds where the NB will attempt to one shot you with a medium weave heavy attack + Incap/Concealed Weapon into a Assassin's Will proc. Outside of that interval, there is very minimal pressure as the NB will most likely be reapplying buffs or trying to avoid your damage.

But I can see why you said a NB has pressure if we go by your definition. I'm forced to play defensive for X amount of time, and that can be defined as pressure. We are both right in this regard. Both our definitions are true in specific scenarios. What I want to ask you is how can we create a universal definition of pressure?

@StaticWave

So I watched the video and checked out the cmx.

You are correct I was describing a specific scenario and one that's more common to me but that might not be common to others. Again I pick my targets so the nightblades I fight either come in numbers, are relentless, or both. They don't even use gap closers, they just walk out of path with expedition and hit me an sa. Obviously I don't just stand there, I go through my rotation but they are usually good enough to light attack weave, have enchantments or poisons go off, keep up buffs and get the incap/spec bow ready almost on demand. So for me if I'm surviving I'm usually under a good deal of pressure at this point.

Also to that point, I fight in IC generally so I'm running up against a lot of the same enemies who know my moves as much as I know theirs. This may have something to do with why fights tend to be so aggressive and damage filled. Also again, I'm usually not fighting someone that isn't my equal or better.

I think to have a comparison to what I'm saying you'd have to show a video where the nightblade kills you. I say that to say that then we'd understand more of how pressure looks when you're fighting top tier which is more the scenario I'm talking about.

Unfortunately pressure isn't universally defined, the very definition of the word has multiple meanings.

The actual math of combat when taking into account everything that goes into a fight is massive so I can't say I'd even want to really touch that.


Maybe it's better to look at it like this. If the health bar moves there is pressure. The more the health bar moves, the more pressure that exist. Hight pressure turns into burst.

So maybe the definition of pressure for purposes of eso can be anything done that causes the health bar to move.

I would say take extended periods of time out of the measurement because as you said there can be windows when people are buffing or not attacking for some reason.

For the purpose of this discussion it's almost not even important at the times when no damage is really happening because we were talking about sorcs ability to even do damage and if it was suitable. I say that to say that in what we're talking about DPS over an extended period of time isn't really probably important because that's not what's killing people.


Now that I think about it, what would be important to see is how many of each of x class is sorc killing and who is sorc being killed by. Also important would be how many attackers were involved at the time of death. I think exact numbers on those two would help to shed light on where sorc is at in the pecking order


I say this because I think we can go over specific fights and data related to them all day but this isn't an accurate look at what's really happening in pvp overall because people can play in very different environments, time of day, groups, etc.

Unfortunately only ZOS has access to that data so we'll likely never actually see it.

So overall I'd say sorc just needs to change. More damage, more mitigation, more healing, better toolkit, doesn't really matter which, sorc just needs to be better.


But I did just have a thought. Do you have a clip where you die to a dk or nb and cmx data? I say this to say I would like to review it to see if more damage even look like it would help.

I haven't played the game for a month or so and I don't have any relevant clips otherwise I'd just look at them.

Bushido2513

@StaticWave

I was looking over one of my old clips thinking about our discussion. First of sorc on sorc violence is such a sad thing to see

That being said I had a few takeaways. I suppose in this fight I wouldn't have wanted more damage but just a more fun damage kit. This is one of the harder hitting builds I played that rewarded skilled gameplay but I didn't like it because of the use of dual wield and spin to win. DB / Spin to win, boring but sorc only has so much.

If I had been a magsorc in this fight I would have fought for a bit but likely died. Hybrid would survive ok but point is that I dislike that sorc relies on weapon skills so much. I'd rather have been playing magsorc with a better defensive kit and better damage solutions for multiple enemies or harder fights.

When I last played the game I played hybrid destro/bow and that was a lot of fun but would be better with more sorc bases skills and a burst heal that I didn't have to try to make up for.

CMX on a fight like this would have been interesting to have. Oh and if anyone watched the clip ignore the bags at the end. This was a specific rivalry that had been going on for some time and we are now guildies so it is what it is.

https://youtube.com/watch?v=NUSOecvS39E

PhoenixGrey

StaticWave wrote: »

deejayvee wrote: »

Yeah, because the only people who should be able to enjoy playing this game are those who put in the time, effort and dedication, right?

Not saying Warden or some classes didn't need buffs, but ZOS making the game easier and handing out unnecessary buffs is why we have this everlasting issue of class imbalance.

FYI, if ZOS ever went ahead and buffed Sorc, the top end sorcs will dominate other classes. The gap between top end and low/medium end sorcs is THAT big.

What’s wrong in that ?

A top end player on any class is supposed to dominate everyone else

The player has put in time and effort and should be rewarded right ?

Besides we are talking about top 1% of the players here.

I don’t see a problem if they are unkillable or whatever

StaticWave

Bushido2513 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

@Bushido2513 What you're describing about NB is very scenario-specific.

I use data presented by CMX as a measurement for pressure because DPS in PvP is vastly different from DPS in PvE. In PvE, you are just parsing a target for X amount of time with very minimal defensive plays.

However, in PvP, you have to account for defensive intervals where the opponent is counterattacking, or intervals where both of you are simply not attacking for whatever reason. Take this screenshot for example where I achieved a DPS of 3.3k over 2 minutes against a Rallying Cry NB:



Here's the full video of that fight if you wish to watch. It's still uploading at the moment:

https://youtu.be/7lSsaLfw-4U

There were moments in the fight where I played defensive and that brought my DPS down, but overall you could see that I maintained a 3.3k DPS because of 3 factors:

1) I was kiting backwards while doing damage to create more distance for him to travel
2) He is not as experienced as top end NBs in a duel setting
3) He wasn't able to deal as much burst damage to me as he could

A more experienced NB would close the gap a lot quicker and play around Off-Balance to kill me in 2-3 seconds. I also know this, so against an experienced NB I will have lower DPS because I'm usually blocking for the whole duration of Off-Balance. Outside of that Off-Balance window, the NB is not a real threat to me and I can freely pressure him.

So in my experience and definition of pressure, a NB doesn't really have much pressure. What it has is burst intervals where you have to be mindful off, such as Off-Balance every 15 seconds where the NB will attempt to one shot you with a medium weave heavy attack + Incap/Concealed Weapon into a Assassin's Will proc. Outside of that interval, there is very minimal pressure as the NB will most likely be reapplying buffs or trying to avoid your damage.

But I can see why you said a NB has pressure if we go by your definition. I'm forced to play defensive for X amount of time, and that can be defined as pressure. We are both right in this regard. Both our definitions are true in specific scenarios. What I want to ask you is how can we create a universal definition of pressure?

@StaticWave

So I watched the video and checked out the cmx.

You are correct I was describing a specific scenario and one that's more common to me but that might not be common to others. Again I pick my targets so the nightblades I fight either come in numbers, are relentless, or both. They don't even use gap closers, they just walk out of path with expedition and hit me an sa. Obviously I don't just stand there, I go through my rotation but they are usually good enough to light attack weave, have enchantments or poisons go off, keep up buffs and get the incap/spec bow ready almost on demand. So for me if I'm surviving I'm usually under a good deal of pressure at this point.

Also to that point, I fight in IC generally so I'm running up against a lot of the same enemies who know my moves as much as I know theirs. This may have something to do with why fights tend to be so aggressive and damage filled. Also again, I'm usually not fighting someone that isn't my equal or better.

I think to have a comparison to what I'm saying you'd have to show a video where the nightblade kills you. I say that to say that then we'd understand more of how pressure looks when you're fighting top tier which is more the scenario I'm talking about.

Unfortunately pressure isn't universally defined, the very definition of the word has multiple meanings.

The actual math of combat when taking into account everything that goes into a fight is massive so I can't say I'd even want to really touch that.


Maybe it's better to look at it like this. If the health bar moves there is pressure. The more the health bar moves, the more pressure that exist. Hight pressure turns into burst.

So maybe the definition of pressure for purposes of eso can be anything done that causes the health bar to move.

I would say take extended periods of time out of the measurement because as you said there can be windows when people are buffing or not attacking for some reason.

For the purpose of this discussion it's almost not even important at the times when no damage is really happening because we were talking about sorcs ability to even do damage and if it was suitable. I say that to say that in what we're talking about DPS over an extended period of time isn't really probably important because that's not what's killing people.


Now that I think about it, what would be important to see is how many of each of x class is sorc killing and who is sorc being killed by. Also important would be how many attackers were involved at the time of death. I think exact numbers on those two would help to shed light on where sorc is at in the pecking order


I say this because I think we can go over specific fights and data related to them all day but this isn't an accurate look at what's really happening in pvp overall because people can play in very different environments, time of day, groups, etc.

Unfortunately only ZOS has access to that data so we'll likely never actually see it.

So overall I'd say sorc just needs to change. More damage, more mitigation, more healing, better toolkit, doesn't really matter which, sorc just needs to be better.


But I did just have a thought. Do you have a clip where you die to a dk or nb and cmx data? I say this to say I would like to review it to see if more damage even look like it would help.

I haven't played the game for a month or so and I don't have any relevant clips otherwise I'd just look at them.

I had a lot of clips dying to NBs and DKs but they were from several patches ago and I unfortunately deleted them to clear space. I'd have to gather more clips in the current patch, but the top tier NBs and DKs no longer play as much, if at all.

Also, I moved out of the U.S several months ago so my ping is sitting in the ~250ms with a VPN, nowhere near my old ping of ~100 ms. This will affect how I play against NBs because I can't break free reactively anymore. I'd have to anticipate most of their attacks now since they can land their bow proc before my break-free is registered by the server due to ping difference.

As for DKs, I have damage. It's just a matter of whether I have the healing to survive them or not. Most of my deaths were due to not having enough heals to survive their DoTs + proc sets + Whip. I can show you a clip in a bit.

StaticWave

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

deejayvee wrote: »

Yeah, because the only people who should be able to enjoy playing this game are those who put in the time, effort and dedication, right?

Not saying Warden or some classes didn't need buffs, but ZOS making the game easier and handing out unnecessary buffs is why we have this everlasting issue of class imbalance.

FYI, if ZOS ever went ahead and buffed Sorc, the top end sorcs will dominate other classes. The gap between top end and low/medium end sorcs is THAT big.

What’s wrong in that ?

A top end player on any class is supposed to dominate everyone else

The player has put in time and effort and should be rewarded right ?

Besides we are talking about top 1% of the players here.

I don’t see a problem if they are unkillable or whatever

"A top end player on any class is supposed to dominate everyone else" who are at a lower skill level than him, I agree. A top end player on any class shouldn't dominate a top end player on another class just because their class is stronger.

That was my point. The line between making sorc good and making sorc OP is thin. The class has one of the best burst damage in the game, very high mobility with Streak, and good offensive heals. Buffing it to a point where I'm suddenly dominating another top tier player when we used to stalemate before the buff is problematic.

Bushido2513

StaticWave wrote: »

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

deejayvee wrote: »

Yeah, because the only people who should be able to enjoy playing this game are those who put in the time, effort and dedication, right?

Not saying Warden or some classes didn't need buffs, but ZOS making the game easier and handing out unnecessary buffs is why we have this everlasting issue of class imbalance.

FYI, if ZOS ever went ahead and buffed Sorc, the top end sorcs will dominate other classes. The gap between top end and low/medium end sorcs is THAT big.

What’s wrong in that ?

A top end player on any class is supposed to dominate everyone else

The player has put in time and effort and should be rewarded right ?

Besides we are talking about top 1% of the players here.

I don’t see a problem if they are unkillable or whatever

"A top end player on any class is supposed to dominate everyone else" who are at a lower skill level than him, I agree. A top end player on any class shouldn't dominate a top end player on another class just because their class is stronger.

That was my point. The line between making sorc good and making sorc OP is thin. The class has one of the best burst damage in the game, very high mobility with Streak, and good offensive heals. Buffing it to a point where I'm suddenly dominating another top tier player when we used to stalemate before the buff is problematic.

To be fair though there's another factor to consider here that hasn't been mentioned. Sorc would also have to be buffed to a point where top end players couldn't adapt which is considerably higher than your usual buffs.

Higher tier players and players in general usually try to adjust a bit to compensate for overly buffed classes to reduce gap as much as possible.

DK in my opinion is currently overturned but I've adjusted my builds to compensate and tried to become more familiar with their strengths and weaknesses. There's still a balance issue but I've been able to reduce the gap to a more tolerable point.

Though for the record in doing so I do end up sacrificing build variety at times and that's a pain but it is what it is.


Like in that clip I showed above, I'm all damage there and won based on luck and skilled gameplay. If the mag sorc had more easily available damage due to buffs I'd just end up playing something like the hybrid build I last played, a bit more defense and sustain oriented. I probably wouldn't have outright won the fight but I wouldn't get outright killed either.


I say that to say that at the top end buffs would have to be fairly strong and specific to hit a point where players couldn't even adapt to them. Even so those things are usually so blatant that they get nerfed faster than the seemingly long time it takes to get some nerfs now.

TechMaybeHic

DK is played by so many now and with success being so easy; it's hard to tell which ones are actually good. Even for them. There gets to be a false sense of bravado both ways.

With my templar, I will see one out crushing players and go out to fight them, and then they drop. Spent their corrosive and maybe MA, and they don't have another trick.

Good DKs, generally are still tough after or without Corrosive. Out-sustain or rather, resources and health just bounce back up. Can lure you into a false sense of having a bad one on your hands and next thing you know, they're healed to full and bust comboing your face. And even then; I'm not sure that's a top tier DK or just not bad

My point being; maybe we should not use DK as a measuring stick. Probably not NBs either as a lot of them just play hoping to get the lucky now proc at the right time and get a kill. Good ones will always have a plan to get it lined up and you just die if you're not ready for it.

Bushido2513

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

My point being; maybe we should not use DK as a measuring stick. Probably not NBs either as a lot of them just play hoping to get the lucky now proc at the right time and get a kill. Good ones will always have a plan to get it lined up and you just die if you're not ready for it.

That just depends on what you're trying to balance for and what you see most of. For me they are a bit of a measuring stick because they are so common for me in fights. Now I don't fight in Cyro as much so I can't speak for what's going on up to.

I'm mostly in IC and sometimes in bgs if IC is dead. In IC it's so confined and gank conducive that people usually run something they can live on or something they can kill/escape on. So I see a lot of dks because of the survivability and easy possible kills they can get and I see a lot of nb because of their easy ability to get away and possibly exploit another player.

To a lesser extent I see the occasional plar throwing rituals and trying to get a beam in, sorcs leaning on mobility, wardens just surviving and being annoying, necros either bombing or just being hard to kill.

If you look at the clip I posted and just imagine adding another dk or two nightblades coming out of stealth then that's my usual experience.

I say all that to say that I can understand how others might have balancing needs that suit their usual fighting experience. I would hope that we all understand that any input in here is usually somewhat subjective and needs to be considered in the whole picture.

Cloudrest

StaticWave wrote: »

That was why I have said multiple times in this thread that magsorc couldn't win a tournament because magplar or magdk always won. They beat everything else, but the fact that magsorc got to top 2/3 meant it could become top 1 if we fix the overperforming classes.

Monk's one of the best Magsorcs I've faced outside of Explanicide and Nextuality (I'm biased, sue me), and I'll back that up and also say that Sorc would have easily won more tournaments if mDK and mPlar weren't so strong at the time. Most of the nights we spent testing rules in Alik'r/Muskrap's house was trying to tune down Magplar and MagDK to make them good, but not as insane as they were in no-rules setups. Sorc had relatively few changes iirc and it was still always playing top 3 or top 5 at the very least.

My first fight with @MetallicMonk during the $150 prize pool dueling tournament remains one of the closest, well-fought, and most memorable for me personally, due to how I spent 90% of the fight on my backbar desperately trying to stay alive by spamming HOTD. This is just one fight out of many I've had with Monk (and I've lost quite a few to him from him pressuring me extremely well or just bursting me outright. Yeah, he was able to kill Magplars and MagDKs, which is impressive in and of itself on Sorc).

I'd challenge anyone to watch this clip and HONESTLY tell me that Sorc has no pressure. Notice how I'm hovering at death's door whilst holding block and spamming HOTD, and even when I go to turn the fight, I'm right back to sitting at execute HP. One SINGLE mistake and I would have easily died.

Bushido2513

Cloudrest wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

That was why I have said multiple times in this thread that magsorc couldn't win a tournament because magplar or magdk always won. They beat everything else, but the fact that magsorc got to top 2/3 meant it could become top 1 if we fix the overperforming classes.

Monk's one of the best Magsorcs I've faced outside of Explanicide and Nextuality (I'm biased, sue me), and I'll back that up and also say that Sorc would have easily won more tournaments if mDK and mPlar weren't so strong at the time. Most of the nights we spent testing rules in Alik'r/Muskrap's house was trying to tune down Magplar and MagDK to make them good, but not as insane as they were in no-rules setups. Sorc had relatively few changes iirc and it was still always playing top 3 or top 5 at the very least.

My first fight with @MetallicMonk during the $150 prize pool dueling tournament remains one of the closest, well-fought, and most memorable for me personally, due to how I spent 90% of the fight on my backbar desperately trying to stay alive by spamming HOTD. This is just one fight out of many I've had with Monk (and I've lost quite a few to him from him pressuring me extremely well or just bursting me outright. Yeah, he was able to kill Magplars and MagDKs, which is impressive in and of itself on Sorc).

I'd challenge anyone to watch this clip and HONESTLY tell me that Sorc has no pressure. Notice how I'm hovering at death's door whilst holding block and spamming HOTD, and even when I go to turn the fight, I'm right back to sitting at execute HP. One SINGLE mistake and I would have easily died.

Wow.......

This reminds me of an anime I watched back in the day about samurai. A samurai assassin comes to kill another highly trained samurai who had mostly trained in dojos. They are fighting in a field somewhere.

After a bit of back and forth fighting the assassin remarks that if this were a dojo the other samurai might win the fight, but that this isn't a dojo.

I say that to say that you're presenting a controlled example that isn't really a good representation of pvp across the board.

In that fight, with whatever rules were imposed, that sorc had pressure. Now take that out into the higher levels of the full game where players can wear whatever they want and play whatever class they want and see if the pressure remains constantly the same, I'm pretty sure it won't.

Yes in some cases it will, in my own clip you see me being pressured by a sorc but I'm also playing on a sorc. Pretending there aren't somewhat overperforming classes using well tuned and possibly overperforming builds doesn't present a realistic understanding of the full experience in pvp.

I could easily setup a duel and swing the pendulum in the other direction but that too would be untrue to the reality of pvp and so too would any blanket statements I might make based on it be.

PhoenixGrey

StaticWave wrote: »

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

deejayvee wrote: »

Yeah, because the only people who should be able to enjoy playing this game are those who put in the time, effort and dedication, right?

Not saying Warden or some classes didn't need buffs, but ZOS making the game easier and handing out unnecessary buffs is why we have this everlasting issue of class imbalance.

FYI, if ZOS ever went ahead and buffed Sorc, the top end sorcs will dominate other classes. The gap between top end and low/medium end sorcs is THAT big.

What’s wrong in that ?

A top end player on any class is supposed to dominate everyone else

The player has put in time and effort and should be rewarded right ?

Besides we are talking about top 1% of the players here.

I don’t see a problem if they are unkillable or whatever

"A top end player on any class is supposed to dominate everyone else" who are at a lower skill level than him, I agree. A top end player on any class shouldn't dominate a top end player on another class just because their class is stronger.

That was my point. The line between making sorc good and making sorc OP is thin. The class has one of the best burst damage in the game, very high mobility with Streak, and good offensive heals. Buffing it to a point where I'm suddenly dominating another top tier player when we used to stalemate before the buff is problematic.

But isn’t that the whole point of buffing sorc?

A mediocre dk or nb can easily dominate a top tier sorc in open world pvp due to really weak or non existent defense

There will be an arcanist class in the future and then we shall have 3 classes which dominate sorc.

It’s easier to buff one class rather than expecting zos to nerf 3 classes.

Bushido2513

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

A mediocre dk or nb can easily dominate a top tier sorc in open world pvp due to really weak or non existent defense

There will be an arcanist class in the future and then we shall have 3 classes which dominate sorc.

It’s easier to buff one class rather than expecting zos to nerf 3 classes.

I'm not a top tier sorc by any means but even so what I would call a mediocre dk or vb 1v1 wouldn't dominate me. They usually just have a high ability to survive from low health and a chance to burst you if you slip up and don't see the combo. Also matters what variation of sorc you're playing.

I could be misunderstanding your use of the word dominating as I'm thinking of you meaning a situation where sorc just can't really fight back and I wouldn't say that's the case, again depending on what type of sorc you're playing and what type of dk we're talking.


That being said I'm thinking Static is talking about a situation where sorc becomes as easily overpowered as dk is and then some.

These things tend to have ripple effects and the bigger the change the bigger the ripple.

For me I'd like to see sorc come up in the pecking order but not the way dk did where everyone started jumping on one because it was so strong/easy. That might actually be more annoying than the current issue.

I think it was cool to see the way ice warden was brought up. I did and do see a lot of players give mag warden another go because it was more interesting. The good part in my opinion though was that it was just more fun and rewarding to play but certainly not op. I'd like to see sorc get a similar treatment.

Jsmalls

@Cloudrest

I can't speak for the scenario that lead up to that clip, but I do have to ask why you didn't dodge roll and breath of life to recover. From what I can see Metallic has curse, frag, crushing shock, and destructive reach on. Disregarding that 2/4 of those abilities are not class related, 3/4 of them are projectiles. If you Roll dodge cancel a heal its going to give you 2 gcds for HoTs and burst heals to recover only having to deal with curse (which I'm sure you're purging). Maybe you were out of stamina idk but that's a your sustain thing, not a Mag Sorc OP thing. And a lot of that damage was chosen to be face tanked versus mitigated by other means.

Secondly notice how Metallic stayed on the offensive and died for it. He dropped his ward and likely some buffs and you took advantage of that. Mag Sorc's ward is mostly preemptive versus reactive. So time needs to be spent off of pressure to upkeep it (versus reactively using a burst heal, or applying long timer HoTs).

I'm not saying a MagSorc can't deal damage if you allow them to. I'm saying a great player knows how to avoid a large portion of MagSorc damage.

Bushido2513

Jsmalls wrote: »

I'm not saying a MagSorc can't deal damage if you allow them to. I'm saying a great player knows how to avoid a large portion of MagSorc damage.

This!

The same is visible in the clip I added. Without the dodgerolls I'd be toast. I try to get a vigor animation cancel roll in whenever I can remember to as well!