I do not want Sorcerer buffs.

OBJnoob

Things need buffed sometimes and other times things need nerfing. I think it's wrong to fall too in love with either of the two.

On one hand, sure, don't steal everything that "works." Let people have fun.

But on the other hand if we don't want intermittent universal nerfs like U35 then we have to be aware of power creep and how it may effect the PvE world.

I can appreciate the various points of view here about sorc. And I am one who agrees the buffs should be minimal. Still, I'm going to occasionally interject and point out how odd it is that this conversation is happening in a thread suggesting sorc needs no buffs at all. Funny/ironic/whatever as it may be... I do think it's counterproductive to understanding and agreement.

Bushido2513

StaticWave wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

So anyways to actually have an answer I'd be able to even remotely accept here you'd have to test in combat on 1v1 and 1vx both comprised of enemies you know the exact specs of and who will repeatedly attack you in noted scenarios then test how you are able to respond over several iterations. The key point is that to get anywhere near accurate data you'd have to keep resetting the simulation but keep it the same every time.

The thing is, we literally did that for 2 years on PC NA. I was a moderator of a very large dueling guild on PC-NA before they disbanded (Legend dueling guild to be exact). Whenever Legend hosted a tournament, I and other moderators would have everyone who were participating get into a spot (usually Stormhaven) and repeatedly duel to test the rules.

We dueled for hours every week against the same people in the same builds to test for the rules. Magsorc has never been bad at dealing damage within the rule parameters. It was weak against DKs and Magplars, but they were OP and everyone else had trouble against them. Against other classes, magsorc didn't have much issue killing.

That was as controlled as it could get. I didn't just come to this conclusion through a few clips. I had thousands of hours dueling magsorcs and spectating other magsorcs duel other people as part of a dueling guild to come to this conclusion. My experience may differ from other people, but I am 100% sure everybody who participated in that testing environment would also agree with me that magsorc DOES HAVE PRESSURE.

Outside of the tournament, it was much harder to test as most people were running cancer builds and could cheese down the magsorc. However, that is an issue of poor defense, which I have many times stated that I support buffing that aspect of the class.

So that's a bit informal but assuming this was accepted information and you were able to look at it from an object standpoint then it would let's say make you a credible authority on 1v1 balance.

I would say that you're still missing control based testing on Cyrodiil, Imperial City, and Battlegrounds.

I'm not saying you don't have a great amount of experience in those modes but that they too should be considered when figuring out how to balance sorc damage, healing, etc.

More importantly I'm saying that maybe other people play in those modes and that's why they might be looking for different adjustments than yourself that don't appeal to you.

Now I know you're open on the defense buff end so I'm not discounting that are all and I respect that things might work out even if only that were buffed.

I'm just saying that we don't have all the information and that your presented data wouldn't qualify as an absolute representation of all the scenarios that can be taken into account when looking at what could and couldn't work to balance sorc, therefore damage buffs shouldn't be pulled off the table. My opinion at the macro level I admit.

Jsmalls

StaticWave wrote: »

And that goes for everybody in this thread. Clearly I and @MetallicMonk must be wrong since we are the only people who don’t share the same experience as everyone else. We won’t argue against buffing sorc damage anymore. Please continue asking for damage buffs. We will personally enjoy the overbuffed sorc for a whole patch when your wishes are granted 😂

Other than a burst heal, the things being asked for don't buff your setup, nor do they buff mine. You already have access to major breach, so does Metallic. We're asking for it on curse to help out the lower end player. You already have major savagery, as does Metallic. You can choose to or not to drop expert hunter/ magelight and you'll get an extra bar slot for maybe another dot or some other ability etc. But in the case of dropping magelight you lose base damage, and dropping expert youd lose minor berserk so there is give and take. I don't think a single person has asked for an outright tooltip increase.

The spammable is outdated for 1v1 and (personally) isn't worth the slot in group play. You don't have a class spammable (Magicka based, I understand crystal weapons is a great skill but not worth replacing frags for generally). You don't have a burst heal not tied to a generally not appealing double bar killable pet.

You have mobility and burst. And one of those doesn't work on 60% of the player base anymore due to health and tankiness creep. Penetration helps against those players. Minor mangle helps against those players. Buffs and debuffs that aren't available to our class help against those players.

I'd prefer adding passives that specifically aid in fights against these types of players than generalized buffs that would make us way too strong against lower tier players (which we are already incredibly strong against).

StaticWave

Jsmalls wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

And that goes for everybody in this thread. Clearly I and @MetallicMonk must be wrong since we are the only people who don’t share the same experience as everyone else. We won’t argue against buffing sorc damage anymore. Please continue asking for damage buffs. We will personally enjoy the overbuffed sorc for a whole patch when your wishes are granted 😂

Other than a burst heal, the things being asked for don't buff your setup, nor do they buff mine. You already have access to major breach, so does Metallic. We're asking for it on curse to help out the lower end player. You already have major savagery, as does Metallic. You can choose to or not to drop expert hunter/ magelight and you'll get an extra bar slot for maybe another dot or some other ability etc. But in the case of dropping magelight you lose base damage, and dropping expert youd lose minor berserk so there is give and take. I don't think a single person has asked for an outright tooltip increase.

The spammable is outdated for 1v1 and (personally) isn't worth the slot in group play. You don't have a class spammable (Magicka based, I understand crystal weapons is a great skill but not worth replacing frags for generally). You don't have a burst heal not tied to a generally not appealing double bar killable pet.

You have mobility and burst. And one of those doesn't work on 60% of the player base anymore due to health and tankiness creep. Penetration helps against those players. Minor mangle helps against those players. Buffs and debuffs that aren't available to our class help against those players.

I'd prefer adding passives that specifically aid in fights against these types of players than generalized buffs that would make us way too strong against lower tier players (which we are already incredibly strong against).

I have actually seen some people ask for Major Breach on Curse, which I think is a very dangerous suggestion. I have also seen some people ask for faster travel time on Cfrag, which again is a dangerous suggestion.

Giving Fracture on Curse would 100% buff my build. I have a very cancerous DoT build that can rival a DK’s DoT pressure with magsorc-level burst. Only issue is bar space for another defensive ability, but having Curse apply Breach will free up 1 slot and will make me tankier without sacrificing damage.

I’ve openly stated that I support a passive rework and giving the class a burst heal. We are on the same team here. I think this is something we can all agree on.

StaticWave

Bushido2513 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

So anyways to actually have an answer I'd be able to even remotely accept here you'd have to test in combat on 1v1 and 1vx both comprised of enemies you know the exact specs of and who will repeatedly attack you in noted scenarios then test how you are able to respond over several iterations. The key point is that to get anywhere near accurate data you'd have to keep resetting the simulation but keep it the same every time.

The thing is, we literally did that for 2 years on PC NA. I was a moderator of a very large dueling guild on PC-NA before they disbanded (Legend dueling guild to be exact). Whenever Legend hosted a tournament, I and other moderators would have everyone who were participating get into a spot (usually Stormhaven) and repeatedly duel to test the rules.

We dueled for hours every week against the same people in the same builds to test for the rules. Magsorc has never been bad at dealing damage within the rule parameters. It was weak against DKs and Magplars, but they were OP and everyone else had trouble against them. Against other classes, magsorc didn't have much issue killing.

That was as controlled as it could get. I didn't just come to this conclusion through a few clips. I had thousands of hours dueling magsorcs and spectating other magsorcs duel other people as part of a dueling guild to come to this conclusion. My experience may differ from other people, but I am 100% sure everybody who participated in that testing environment would also agree with me that magsorc DOES HAVE PRESSURE.

Outside of the tournament, it was much harder to test as most people were running cancer builds and could cheese down the magsorc. However, that is an issue of poor defense, which I have many times stated that I support buffing that aspect of the class.

So that's a bit informal but assuming this was accepted information and you were able to look at it from an object standpoint then it would let's say make you a credible authority on 1v1 balance.

I would say that you're still missing control based testing on Cyrodiil, Imperial City, and Battlegrounds.

I'm not saying you don't have a great amount of experience in those modes but that they too should be considered when figuring out how to balance sorc damage, healing, etc.

More importantly I'm saying that maybe other people play in those modes and that's why they might be looking for different adjustments than yourself that don't appeal to you.

Now I know you're open on the defense buff end so I'm not discounting that are all and I respect that things might work out even if only that were buffed.

I'm just saying that we don't have all the information and that your presented data wouldn't qualify as an absolute representation of all the scenarios that can be taken into account when looking at what could and couldn't work to balance sorc, therefore damage buffs shouldn't be pulled off the table. My opinion at the macro level I admit.

My main type of PvP are 1vXing in cyrodiil, small-scaling with my guild, and dueling. I also queue for BGs while dueling. The only form of PvP I don’t regularly do are large scale fights and IC farming.

Out of the 4 types of PvP I participate in, I would say 40% of them is dueling, 40% Cyrodiil (1vXing and smallscaling combined), and 20% BGs. My stamsorc is a rank 50 Alliance, so I think I’ve participated enough in Cyrodiil to have a good amount of experience of the class in an openworld setting.

Imo, sorc as a class is usually played as a CC + pressure/burst class in BGs and smallscale. The CC + pressure build usually stacks 5+ DoTs while spamming bombard. The burst build usually has a ton of up front damage and very high mobility to get quick kills.

In BGs they lack survivability, but their damage is fine. That is why I openly stated I am all for buffing sorc healing, because if we don’t, a sorc’s only role is to spam bombard or be a super mobile dps. It can’t brawl at all. To do that, it usually needs to have a pocket healer at all times.

@gariondavey is a BG main, and I think he would agree with my experience of how the class is usually played in BGs and smallscale.

ForumBully

StaticWave wrote: »

Jsmalls wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

And that goes for everybody in this thread. Clearly I and @MetallicMonk must be wrong since we are the only people who don’t share the same experience as everyone else. We won’t argue against buffing sorc damage anymore. Please continue asking for damage buffs. We will personally enjoy the overbuffed sorc for a whole patch when your wishes are granted 😂

Other than a burst heal, the things being asked for don't buff your setup, nor do they buff mine. You already have access to major breach, so does Metallic. We're asking for it on curse to help out the lower end player. You already have major savagery, as does Metallic. You can choose to or not to drop expert hunter/ magelight and you'll get an extra bar slot for maybe another dot or some other ability etc. But in the case of dropping magelight you lose base damage, and dropping expert youd lose minor berserk so there is give and take. I don't think a single person has asked for an outright tooltip increase.

The spammable is outdated for 1v1 and (personally) isn't worth the slot in group play. You don't have a class spammable (Magicka based, I understand crystal weapons is a great skill but not worth replacing frags for generally). You don't have a burst heal not tied to a generally not appealing double bar killable pet.

You have mobility and burst. And one of those doesn't work on 60% of the player base anymore due to health and tankiness creep. Penetration helps against those players. Minor mangle helps against those players. Buffs and debuffs that aren't available to our class help against those players.

I'd prefer adding passives that specifically aid in fights against these types of players than generalized buffs that would make us way too strong against lower tier players (which we are already incredibly strong against).

I have actually seen some people ask for Major Breach on Curse, which I think is a very dangerous suggestion. I have also seen some people ask for faster travel time on Cfrag, which again is a dangerous suggestion.

Giving Fracture on Curse would 100% buff my build. I have a very cancerous DoT build that can rival a DK’s DoT pressure with magsorc-level burst. Only issue is bar space for another defensive ability, but having Curse apply Breach will free up 1 slot and will make me tankier without sacrificing damage.

I’ve openly stated that I support a passive rework and giving the class a burst heal. We are on the same team here. I think this is something we can all agree on.

I'm don't really agree with the dramatics on either side..."very dangerous" to have breach on a skill? Something that other classes have on strong skills is "very dangerous" on a Sorc?
It's not very dangerous, no suggestions are. We're not talking about disrupting an otherwise perfect and delicate balance, because we don't have one currently. It would be strong for Curse to have breach...that's it. Nothing ecosystem destroying.

MetallicMonk

ForumBully wrote: »

While I agree that Sorcs don't need a lot, I'd always rather advocate buffs to what's weak than nerfs to what's strong. Nerfing what's strong has been done to death and it's never a gentle process...look at Templar.
Sorc is last in line behind Templar and Necro in terms of needing buffs, but I'd rather see a weaker class get stronger, even at the risk of going too far, than ask ZOS to cripple the classes that actually work well now.

I just personally disagree, I don't like almost any class in the game besides sorc for the fact that it still feels good to play and has the same class weaknesses it always had, I would love that to be the case for the over the top classes that to me are insanely boring to play.

Also personally I'm much happier where templar is at now than where it used to be, sure they could use some buffs but it wasn't too long ago they were hitting you for a 12k+ unblockable unrollable delayed burst damage while having an unrollable damage kit and unblockable cc on top of outputting by far the most HPS on themselves. I believe that lasted like 2+ years so they can enjoy some time in the dirt.

KilianDermoth

☝
Thats literally saying you dont want balance without saying you dont want balance...

StaticWave

ForumBully wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Jsmalls wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

And that goes for everybody in this thread. Clearly I and @MetallicMonk must be wrong since we are the only people who don’t share the same experience as everyone else. We won’t argue against buffing sorc damage anymore. Please continue asking for damage buffs. We will personally enjoy the overbuffed sorc for a whole patch when your wishes are granted 😂

Other than a burst heal, the things being asked for don't buff your setup, nor do they buff mine. You already have access to major breach, so does Metallic. We're asking for it on curse to help out the lower end player. You already have major savagery, as does Metallic. You can choose to or not to drop expert hunter/ magelight and you'll get an extra bar slot for maybe another dot or some other ability etc. But in the case of dropping magelight you lose base damage, and dropping expert youd lose minor berserk so there is give and take. I don't think a single person has asked for an outright tooltip increase.

The spammable is outdated for 1v1 and (personally) isn't worth the slot in group play. You don't have a class spammable (Magicka based, I understand crystal weapons is a great skill but not worth replacing frags for generally). You don't have a burst heal not tied to a generally not appealing double bar killable pet.

You have mobility and burst. And one of those doesn't work on 60% of the player base anymore due to health and tankiness creep. Penetration helps against those players. Minor mangle helps against those players. Buffs and debuffs that aren't available to our class help against those players.

I'd prefer adding passives that specifically aid in fights against these types of players than generalized buffs that would make us way too strong against lower tier players (which we are already incredibly strong against).

I have actually seen some people ask for Major Breach on Curse, which I think is a very dangerous suggestion. I have also seen some people ask for faster travel time on Cfrag, which again is a dangerous suggestion.

Giving Fracture on Curse would 100% buff my build. I have a very cancerous DoT build that can rival a DK’s DoT pressure with magsorc-level burst. Only issue is bar space for another defensive ability, but having Curse apply Breach will free up 1 slot and will make me tankier without sacrificing damage.

I’ve openly stated that I support a passive rework and giving the class a burst heal. We are on the same team here. I think this is something we can all agree on.

I'm don't really agree with the dramatics on either side..."very dangerous" to have breach on a skill? Something that other classes have on strong skills is "very dangerous" on a Sorc?
It's not very dangerous, no suggestions are. We're not talking about disrupting an otherwise perfect and delicate balance, because we don't have one currently. It would be strong for Curse to have breach...that's it. Nothing ecosystem destroying.

Putting Major Breach on an already hard hitting skill to free up another slot is dangerous. Making a hard hitting projectile easier to land is also dangerous.

Would you want a Cfrag that travels as fast as Javelin, or a build with all 4 offensive abilities because sorc doesn’t lack bar space anymore? I don’t think so.

Bushido2513

StaticWave wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

So anyways to actually have an answer I'd be able to even remotely accept here you'd have to test in combat on 1v1 and 1vx both comprised of enemies you know the exact specs of and who will repeatedly attack you in noted scenarios then test how you are able to respond over several iterations. The key point is that to get anywhere near accurate data you'd have to keep resetting the simulation but keep it the same every time.

The thing is, we literally did that for 2 years on PC NA. I was a moderator of a very large dueling guild on PC-NA before they disbanded (Legend dueling guild to be exact). Whenever Legend hosted a tournament, I and other moderators would have everyone who were participating get into a spot (usually Stormhaven) and repeatedly duel to test the rules.

We dueled for hours every week against the same people in the same builds to test for the rules. Magsorc has never been bad at dealing damage within the rule parameters. It was weak against DKs and Magplars, but they were OP and everyone else had trouble against them. Against other classes, magsorc didn't have much issue killing.

That was as controlled as it could get. I didn't just come to this conclusion through a few clips. I had thousands of hours dueling magsorcs and spectating other magsorcs duel other people as part of a dueling guild to come to this conclusion. My experience may differ from other people, but I am 100% sure everybody who participated in that testing environment would also agree with me that magsorc DOES HAVE PRESSURE.

Outside of the tournament, it was much harder to test as most people were running cancer builds and could cheese down the magsorc. However, that is an issue of poor defense, which I have many times stated that I support buffing that aspect of the class.

So that's a bit informal but assuming this was accepted information and you were able to look at it from an object standpoint then it would let's say make you a credible authority on 1v1 balance.

I would say that you're still missing control based testing on Cyrodiil, Imperial City, and Battlegrounds.

I'm not saying you don't have a great amount of experience in those modes but that they too should be considered when figuring out how to balance sorc damage, healing, etc.

More importantly I'm saying that maybe other people play in those modes and that's why they might be looking for different adjustments than yourself that don't appeal to you.

Now I know you're open on the defense buff end so I'm not discounting that are all and I respect that things might work out even if only that were buffed.

I'm just saying that we don't have all the information and that your presented data wouldn't qualify as an absolute representation of all the scenarios that can be taken into account when looking at what could and couldn't work to balance sorc, therefore damage buffs shouldn't be pulled off the table. My opinion at the macro level I admit.

My main type of PvP are 1vXing in cyrodiil, small-scaling with my guild, and dueling. I also queue for BGs while dueling. The only form of PvP I don’t regularly do are large scale fights and IC farming.

Out of the 4 types of PvP I participate in, I would say 40% of them is dueling, 40% Cyrodiil (1vXing and smallscaling combined), and 20% BGs. My stamsorc is a rank 50 Alliance, so I think I’ve participated enough in Cyrodiil to have a good amount of experience of the class in an openworld setting.

Imo, sorc as a class is usually played as a CC + pressure/burst class in BGs and smallscale. The CC + pressure build usually stacks 5+ DoTs while spamming bombard. The burst build usually has a ton of up front damage and very high mobility to get quick kills.

In BGs they lack survivability, but their damage is fine. That is why I openly stated I am all for buffing sorc healing, because if we don’t, a sorc’s only role is to spam bombard or be a super mobile dps. It can’t brawl at all. To do that, it usually needs to have a pocket healer at all times.

@gariondavey is a BG main, and I think he would agree with my experience of how the class is usually played in BGs and smallscale.

So ok I'm starting to get a picture here that both of us have a lot of time played and some ideas on how sorc could be better. Neither of us can say there's one surefire way or another that would lead to a better sorc.

I think the only difference that I just thought of is that I feel like buffing damage carefully wouldn't be an issue in the same way that buffing defense wouldn't be.

For me it's all the same, if you give me more damage that just means I can invest more in defense in other areas, same with if you give me more defense, I'll just invest in more damage in other places.

I can understand why damage is fine for you. I'm looking to get a little bit more creative and so for me keeping the same damage kit isn't as appealing.

Also how does this math work? Sorcs damage hasn't been changed in quite some time but other classes have gotten damage and defensive buffs. Sorc hasn't been op in a long time.

So if other classes have gotten stronger and sorc hasn't dominated in some time then how could it not be operating at a power deficit?

Again I'm not saying this would show up when killing potatoes or even average players but more so at the high end.

I'm not saying sorc needs more damage to be payable. I'm saying even if it was given more damage a seasoned player could turn this into whatever they want for the build. Again it would have to be added correctly but other than that what's the point of worrying how buffs come as long as they are done with care?

AdamLAD

I think sorcerers offensive toolkit is fine as is. Across the board. Yes we if we get some passive reworks that increased it a little bit that would be great. However I'm far more concerned about its sustainability and defence. More sustain = more damage, better defence = more damage. You starting buffing damage directly aswell as giving us better sustain and defence I would blow up tanks with complete ease by creating a build that would be ridiculously OP. Sustain, defence and passive reworks is all we need. Do NOT buff sorcerers damage directly as the kit is completely fine as is.

Bushido2513

AdamLAD wrote: »

More sustain = more damage, better defence = more damage. You starting buffing damage directly aswell as giving us better sustain and defence I would blow up tanks with complete ease by creating a build that would be ridiculously OP.

How did you go from ok to ok to NUCLEAR?

Your first two examples made sense but then you made a third we example by saying well if we give them everything it would be insane.

Nobody is arguing that actually would be insane however in the logic of your argument id think it would be that more damage could be converted to defenses or sustain no?

ForumBully

StaticWave wrote: »

ForumBully wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Jsmalls wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

And that goes for everybody in this thread. Clearly I and @MetallicMonk must be wrong since we are the only people who don’t share the same experience as everyone else. We won’t argue against buffing sorc damage anymore. Please continue asking for damage buffs. We will personally enjoy the overbuffed sorc for a whole patch when your wishes are granted 😂

Other than a burst heal, the things being asked for don't buff your setup, nor do they buff mine. You already have access to major breach, so does Metallic. We're asking for it on curse to help out the lower end player. You already have major savagery, as does Metallic. You can choose to or not to drop expert hunter/ magelight and you'll get an extra bar slot for maybe another dot or some other ability etc. But in the case of dropping magelight you lose base damage, and dropping expert youd lose minor berserk so there is give and take. I don't think a single person has asked for an outright tooltip increase.

The spammable is outdated for 1v1 and (personally) isn't worth the slot in group play. You don't have a class spammable (Magicka based, I understand crystal weapons is a great skill but not worth replacing frags for generally). You don't have a burst heal not tied to a generally not appealing double bar killable pet.

You have mobility and burst. And one of those doesn't work on 60% of the player base anymore due to health and tankiness creep. Penetration helps against those players. Minor mangle helps against those players. Buffs and debuffs that aren't available to our class help against those players.

I'd prefer adding passives that specifically aid in fights against these types of players than generalized buffs that would make us way too strong against lower tier players (which we are already incredibly strong against).

I have actually seen some people ask for Major Breach on Curse, which I think is a very dangerous suggestion. I have also seen some people ask for faster travel time on Cfrag, which again is a dangerous suggestion.

Giving Fracture on Curse would 100% buff my build. I have a very cancerous DoT build that can rival a DK’s DoT pressure with magsorc-level burst. Only issue is bar space for another defensive ability, but having Curse apply Breach will free up 1 slot and will make me tankier without sacrificing damage.

I’ve openly stated that I support a passive rework and giving the class a burst heal. We are on the same team here. I think this is something we can all agree on.

I'm don't really agree with the dramatics on either side..."very dangerous" to have breach on a skill? Something that other classes have on strong skills is "very dangerous" on a Sorc?
It's not very dangerous, no suggestions are. We're not talking about disrupting an otherwise perfect and delicate balance, because we don't have one currently. It would be strong for Curse to have breach...that's it. Nothing ecosystem destroying.

Putting Major Breach on an already hard hitting skill to free up another slot is dangerous. Making a hard hitting projectile easier to land is also dangerous.

Would you want a Cfrag that travels as fast as Javelin, or a build with all 4 offensive abilities because sorc doesn’t lack bar space anymore? I don’t think so.

Breach is on shalks...should it not be or are Wardens special?

StaticWave

ForumBully wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

ForumBully wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Jsmalls wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

And that goes for everybody in this thread. Clearly I and @MetallicMonk must be wrong since we are the only people who don’t share the same experience as everyone else. We won’t argue against buffing sorc damage anymore. Please continue asking for damage buffs. We will personally enjoy the overbuffed sorc for a whole patch when your wishes are granted 😂

Other than a burst heal, the things being asked for don't buff your setup, nor do they buff mine. You already have access to major breach, so does Metallic. We're asking for it on curse to help out the lower end player. You already have major savagery, as does Metallic. You can choose to or not to drop expert hunter/ magelight and you'll get an extra bar slot for maybe another dot or some other ability etc. But in the case of dropping magelight you lose base damage, and dropping expert youd lose minor berserk so there is give and take. I don't think a single person has asked for an outright tooltip increase.

The spammable is outdated for 1v1 and (personally) isn't worth the slot in group play. You don't have a class spammable (Magicka based, I understand crystal weapons is a great skill but not worth replacing frags for generally). You don't have a burst heal not tied to a generally not appealing double bar killable pet.

You have mobility and burst. And one of those doesn't work on 60% of the player base anymore due to health and tankiness creep. Penetration helps against those players. Minor mangle helps against those players. Buffs and debuffs that aren't available to our class help against those players.

I'd prefer adding passives that specifically aid in fights against these types of players than generalized buffs that would make us way too strong against lower tier players (which we are already incredibly strong against).

I have actually seen some people ask for Major Breach on Curse, which I think is a very dangerous suggestion. I have also seen some people ask for faster travel time on Cfrag, which again is a dangerous suggestion.

Giving Fracture on Curse would 100% buff my build. I have a very cancerous DoT build that can rival a DK’s DoT pressure with magsorc-level burst. Only issue is bar space for another defensive ability, but having Curse apply Breach will free up 1 slot and will make me tankier without sacrificing damage.

I’ve openly stated that I support a passive rework and giving the class a burst heal. We are on the same team here. I think this is something we can all agree on.

I'm don't really agree with the dramatics on either side..."very dangerous" to have breach on a skill? Something that other classes have on strong skills is "very dangerous" on a Sorc?
It's not very dangerous, no suggestions are. We're not talking about disrupting an otherwise perfect and delicate balance, because we don't have one currently. It would be strong for Curse to have breach...that's it. Nothing ecosystem destroying.

Putting Major Breach on an already hard hitting skill to free up another slot is dangerous. Making a hard hitting projectile easier to land is also dangerous.

Would you want a Cfrag that travels as fast as Javelin, or a build with all 4 offensive abilities because sorc doesn’t lack bar space anymore? I don’t think so.

Breach is on shalks...should it not be or are Wardens special?

Shalk is a lot easier to counter than Curse...

The only way to counter Curse is with a Cleanse. Meanwhile Shalk needs to be aimed at and thus can be juked, can be blocked, can also be moved out of range, and is mitigated by Major Evasion and Medium Armor. 3 counters and 1 soft counter for Shalk vs 1 for Curse, I'd say it's fair Shalk gets Major Breach lol

StaticWave

Bushido2513 wrote: »

So ok I'm starting to get a picture here that both of us have a lot of time played and some ideas on how sorc could be better. Neither of us can say there's one surefire way or another that would lead to a better sorc.

Well, I know what stamsorc needs. It needs a burst heal lol. Throughout my 5 years of playing stamsorc, I've tried to fix that weakness by building tankier, going for full speed, using SnB back bar to block, etc. They are all bandaid fixes and cannot truly fix the only weakness of this class.

For magsorc, it's the complete opposite. Magsorc lacks what stamsorc has, which is HoTs. Hybridization allowed some magsorc builds to fix that weakness by slotting Vigor, but the issue of bar space still prevents the class from fully fixing it.

As a player, I've developed my mechanical and movement skills to compensate for my class' weakness. I would love to have sorc receive these buffs, but what I'm not sure is how it would turn out for the class.

Bushido2513 wrote: »

I think the only difference that I just thought of is that I feel like buffing damage carefully wouldn't be an issue in the same way that buffing defense wouldn't be.

For me it's all the same, if you give me more damage that just means I can invest more in defense in other areas, same with if you give me more defense, I'll just invest in more damage in other places.

If done carefully, yes. A slight tooltip increase (<5%) or even a moderate one (~10%) on underperforming abilities is a careful buff. However, giving Major Breach or making projectiles move faster are NOT careful buffs.

Yes, I agree with you that buffing damage means more chances to invest in defense and vice versa. However, I think most people will naturally gravitate towards investing into defense. It's always been the case for a casual player.

Bushido2513 wrote: »

I can understand why damage is fine for you. I'm looking to get a little bit more creative and so for me keeping the same damage kit isn't as appealing.

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Also how does this math work? Sorcs damage hasn't been changed in quite some time but other classes have gotten damage and defensive buffs. Sorc hasn't been op in a long time.

So if other classes have gotten stronger and sorc hasn't dominated in some time then how could it not be operating at a power deficit?

Again I'm not saying this would show up when killing potatoes or even average players but more so at the high end.

I know in PvE sorc hasn't ever been bad class, so maybe ZOS looked at the data and saw that sorc didn't really need any damage buffs. In PvP, sorc isn't a bad class, but it isn't top tier either. It's one of those classes that require more skill from the user because the stam version doesn't have a burst heal and the mag version needs good shield uptime. I can confidently say that the only thing holding this class back from being top tier is having subpar defense compared to other classes.

Its damage has never been bad at all, especially with hybridization. When I slot my Master DW DoT build on, I can literally trade blows with a DoT DK who's also using Master DW. The only thing he has over me is Coagulating Blood. If I had something similar, then I'm 100% confident my class will be better simply because Streak straight up counters Corrosive and Crit Surge is an amazing offensive heal when used with a DoT build.

So yes, I agree with you that Sorc is definitely at a disadvantage at the high end. It's like having 2 decent gunmen shoot at a target from say, 3 meters. At that range, it doesn't matter if one person can use a 1.6x scope and the other can only use the iron sight. However if we're talking about 20 meters where the aiming skill requirement is important, then giving a 1.6x scope to one person is going to make it a massive advantage.

Using this analogy, let's say the guy with a 1.6x scope is the NB while the guy with the iron sight is the Sorc. If we buff the sorc by giving it a 3x scope, then the advantage gets reversed. What we need to do is carefully buff the class so we don't accidentally make it OP. This requires input from the top end players because they've played the class to the highest potential.

Bushido2513 wrote: »

I'm not saying sorc needs more damage to be payable. I'm saying even if it was given more damage a seasoned player could turn this into whatever they want for the build. Again it would have to be added correctly but other than that what's the point of worrying how buffs come as long as they are done with care?

I think the 2 questions we need to objectively ask ourselves is: Are the class abilities doing enough damage on the majority of builds that currently exist in the meta? If they aren't, then what is causing them to not do as much damage as they potentially could?

When I say objectively, I mean go through every possible builds and counters. Based on tooltip alone, Cfrag and Curse are strong offensive abilities, so that checks the box already. Are they doing enough damage on the majority of builds existing in the current meta? Well, I regularly hit 8-11k crit frags, with 8k against Rallying Cry users and 11k against non Rallying Cry users, so that checks the box already.

With that said, we've also pin point the issue causing sorc to not deal as much damage as they could, and that's Rallying Cry. So what's the solution? I'd say just nerf Rallying Cry instead of buffing something that's fundamentally performing fine.

Bushido2513

StaticWave wrote: »

Well, I know what stamsorc needs. It needs a burst heal lol. Throughout my 5 years of playing stamsorc, I've tried to fix that weakness by building tankier, going for full speed, using SnB back bar to block, etc. They are all bandaid fixes and cannot truly fix the only weakness of this class.

Now this is true and a case where adding damage would most likely end up badly. So I would say in this case yes either a burst heal or more mitigation but generally speaking a burst heal. Adding more damage would make people back off more but it would likely become to oppressive as this variation of sorc does well at hit and run already.

StaticWave wrote: »

For magsorc, it's the complete opposite. Magsorc lacks what stamsorc has, which is HoTs. Hybridization allowed some magsorc builds to fix that weakness by slotting Vigor, but the issue of bar space still prevents the class from fully fixing it.

As a player, I've developed my mechanical and movement skills to compensate for my class' weakness. I would love to have sorc receive these buffs, but what I'm not sure is how it would turn out for the class.

Yeah this is where it gets weird because magsorc is now played as hybrid which is technically the better way to play and the direction of the game. I understand this but I wish there was still a way to play just magsorc and be fully competitive across the board in the same way that other mag/stam variants can be. Overall buffing the defensive kit of the class is the safer approach to not ending up with OP sorcs though I still think that more offense OR a more refined offensive toolkit could make for a gameplay that makes skill level shine a bit more in higher end fights. I could play either type of buff and be fine
I imagine though. Though it's not as fun when you're in a 1vx, you finally get someone singled out, throw the kitchen sink and just watch their health shoot back up for one reason or another. Again this is subjective to me and my playstyle/build but I don't feel like it's a super uncommon experience. So while I don't want an obliterate player button I'd be happy for some mechanic that allows me to have a higher chance to kill if I'm good enough to put it together, while not having to build to where I can be clapped easily by a class that's just easier to play with more damage.

StaticWave wrote: »

However, giving Major Breach or making projectiles move faster are NOT careful buffs.

This is one where I understand where you are coming from in principle but I think it depends on what someone is balancing for. I think faster projectiles could be quite an issue especially with the game's lag where you can be out of range of something or performing an action and get hit by something that was launched a few seconds ago. I'm not really in favor of that. Breach is different because I think most good players build with the idea that they will be breached the whole fight and especially if you're talking about any open world or group play. I understand that this creates an open slot which could mean any number of other increases in damage in the build but overall I don't mind be breached at all times and expect it but could also really use it in a 1vx scenario as I was speaking of earlier. But yeah potatoes or anyone that didn't build with the idea of getting breached would suffer as some might say they should.

StaticWave wrote: »

Its damage has never been bad at all, especially with hybridization. When I slot my Master DW DoT build on, I can literally trade blows with a DoT DK who's also using Master DW. The only thing he has over me is Coagulating Blood. If I had something similar, then I'm 100% confident my class will be better simply because Streak straight up counters Corrosive and Crit Surge is an amazing offensive heal when used with a DoT build.

This is still kind of a weird territory because we're talking hybrid and crutching on sets. I mean I get that everyone uses sets but sorc becomes almost glued to set choices to fill gaps vs other classes that have usually around 3 + builds they can use because of their robust skills/passives. I mean I played the build and put pressure on DKs that I knew were good but I got bored because I started to realize it was just one of the few options and you could put the same build on anything and do fairly well.

I would ultimately like sorc to either really shine as a class that needs to be played correctly or have more build diversity including being able to build an actual magsorc. Again I'm willing to accept hybrid for what it is but even so there's still way too much crutching going on for sorc in that scenario.

StaticWave wrote: »

I think the 2 questions we need to objectively ask ourselves is: Are the class abilities doing enough damage on the majority of builds that currently exist in the meta? If they aren't, then what is causing them to not do as much damage as they potentially could?

When I say objectively, I mean go through every possible builds and counters. Based on tooltip alone, Cfrag and Curse are strong offensive abilities, so that checks the box already. Are they doing enough damage on the majority of builds existing in the current meta? Well, I regularly hit 8-11k crit frags, with 8k against Rallying Cry users and 11k against non Rallying Cry users, so that checks the box already.

With that said, we've also pin point the issue causing sorc to not deal as much damage as they could, and that's Rallying Cry. So what's the solution? I'd say just nerf Rallying Cry instead of buffing something that's fundamentally performing fine.

Well rallying cry is definitely an issue and needs an adjustment. I think most agree on that. Regarding damage I still say that damage dealt and damage done need to be though of with a bit more complexity.

Tooltips aren't really the full story when you have to consider how other classes can respond to that damage.

This is a simple example and not completely on the money but I think of it to how I think about my boxing training. I'm a heavyweight class and just due to the weight behind my punches I hit fairly hard. So yeah on the surface it seems like I do a lot of damage if I actually hit the target.

What I had to learn is of course how much energy I expend for each punch, what is lost when someone dodges, how much energy I spend on defense, etc.

So with sorc you have a good tooltip that hurts when it connects but what's your actual hit miss ratio? If you're doing damage per second how much of that is negated by blocks, dodges, other mitigations, and heals per second?

Ideally the easy way would be if we had a chart next to each build that said an average of these stats over any length of time. Then we could know more so how a damage model might look for a given fight.

I don't think it's a full picture to just say a skill or skills deals x damage.

Or looking sort of at the firearms example, there's the caliber, type of firearm, rate of fire, and how many rounds you can actually get down range and on target.

I'm not saying you're wrong in your observation, just that I think a lot needs to be studied and taken into exact account before we can really make certain claims.

AdamLAD

Bushido2513 wrote: »

AdamLAD wrote: »

More sustain = more damage, better defence = more damage. You starting buffing damage directly aswell as giving us better sustain and defence I would blow up tanks with complete ease by creating a build that would be ridiculously OP.

How did you go from ok to ok to NUCLEAR?

Your first two examples made sense but then you made a third we example by saying well if we give them everything it would be insane.

Nobody is arguing that actually would be insane however in the logic of your argument id think it would be that more damage could be converted to defenses or sustain no?

Because I know I can create something that would be ridiculous. It's all about rotation on a sorcerer, most are very slow at it. However I'm not thus allowing me to have higher DPS. I can run less damage and do decent damage because of it. You start directly buffing my damage like major on curse or increasing the base Damage of skills aswell as other areas ON TOP it will most certainly be a nuke

Bushido2513

AdamLAD wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

AdamLAD wrote: »

More sustain = more damage, better defence = more damage. You starting buffing damage directly aswell as giving us better sustain and defence I would blow up tanks with complete ease by creating a build that would be ridiculously OP.

How did you go from ok to ok to NUCLEAR?

Your first two examples made sense but then you made a third we example by saying well if we give them everything it would be insane.

Nobody is arguing that actually would be insane however in the logic of your argument id think it would be that more damage could be converted to defenses or sustain no?

Because I know I can create something that would be ridiculous. It's all about rotation on a sorcerer, most are very slow at it. However I'm not thus allowing me to have higher DPS. I can run less damage and do decent damage because of it. You start directly buffing my damage like major on curse or increasing the base Damage of skills aswell as other areas ON TOP it will most certainly be a nuke

Well yeah there will always be exceptional players that can do interesting things most can't in a given game. Cue the one kid that beat everyone on the same quarter in Street Fighter. That's expected and nothing to balance around since the occurrence is usually fairly low.

But my point is that you're saying if you do this on top of this then it would be op. Well yeah free would disagree but nobody is asking for all of these things. Different people want different things.

One person wanted faster time on frags and well yeah without a nerf to the damage that's an issue.

Another wanted breach on curse. I'm ok with this one because most every fight I have already has breach so I account for it in a build though I did admit the free slot could become something I can't predict but I still think it's manageable.

Someone else wanted something damage related which I can't recall.

Point is I don't recall anyone asking for all or a combination of these. So you saying it as if someone asked for all of the things doesn't make rational sense in this discussion.

Now if anyone did ask for all the things in one and I missed it then I'd apologize and say to that person yeah that would be busted.

I want a stronger more diversified sorc that can compete at the high end. I don't want something so easy to play that I just want to put the game back down.

Dominating and playing a meta copy of everyone else just makes me want to put the game down.

Cloudrest

StaticWave wrote: »

My experience may differ from other people, but I am 100% sure everybody who participated in that testing environment would also agree with me that magsorc DOES HAVE PRESSURE.

Magsorc 100% has pressure, can confirm.

Bushido2513

Cloudrest wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

My experience may differ from other people, but I am 100% sure everybody who participated in that testing environment would also agree with me that magsorc DOES HAVE PRESSURE.

Magsorc 100% has pressure, can confirm.

I mean technically all classes have pressure. All classes are technically able to kill any other class. An interesting question would be where in the food chain do people think magsorc's pressure is?

Like does magsorc with overload up beat dk corrosive proc whip pressure or incap surprise attack spec bow pressure?

I'd be legit interested to see the math on common kill combos of each class compared in mathematical damage terms including how long each takes to deliver which I imagine wouldn't be too far apart.

MetallicMonk

It's very easy to tell in duel scenarios between all classes, dk has the most pressure, sorc has the 2nd most. It 100% has very strong pressure.

StaticWave

Cloudrest wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

My experience may differ from other people, but I am 100% sure everybody who participated in that testing environment would also agree with me that magsorc DOES HAVE PRESSURE.

Magsorc 100% has pressure, can confirm.

@Cloudrest, who many of you would consider a very good magplar, was one of the participants in the Legend dueling guild.

I remember hosting a dueling night to test a new rule for magplar because the class was overperforming in duels. The new rule was no Purifying Light (was OP at the time). I had @Cloudrest and @MetallicMonk, 2 of the best duelers on PC NA and also top tier players for their class, duel each other several times. Without Purifying Light, Cloudrest couldn't even touch Metallic Monk. He dealt so much pressure in a tourney-legal build (no cheese sets or cheese abilities) that Cloudrest was forced on back bar most of the fight. With Purifying Light, the fight was much easier for Cloudrest.

After the nerfs to Templar, I remember MetallicMonk saying he fought Cloudrest again but this time the advantage is so massively in favor of MetallicMonk that Cloudrest couldn't even do anything to him.

StaticWave

It's very easy to argue here about why magsorc lacks pressure, but I and many others who repeatedly tested every single class in a 1v1 scenario have come to the conclusion that magsorc has one of the best pressure in the game despite being a burst class. Don't believe us? Try dueling decent magsorcs for a day and you will have same conclusion.

Outside of 1v1s, sorc is still a burst class. It can still line up combos to kill someone in 1 GCD. But the moment a fight calls for a switch to pressure, magsorc can do that too. That's the beauty of a class whose burst is spread out over 3-4 abilities. You can play it like a burst class, or a pressure class.

Bushido2513

MetallicMonk wrote: »

It's very easy to tell in duel scenarios between all classes, dk has the most pressure, sorc has the 2nd most. It 100% has very strong pressure.

Now I just have to ask and NB is where , under these two?

Bushido2513

StaticWave wrote: »

It's very easy to argue here about why magsorc lacks pressure, but I and many others who repeatedly tested every single class in a 1v1 scenario have come to the conclusion that magsorc has one of the best pressure in the game despite being a burst class. Don't believe us? Try dueling decent magsorcs for a day and you will have same conclusion.

Outside of 1v1s, sorc is still a burst class. It can still line up combos to kill someone in 1 GCD. B

StaticWave wrote: »

It's very easy to argue here about why magsorc lacks pressure, but I and many others who repeatedly tested every single class in a 1v1 scenario have come to the conclusion that magsorc has one of the best pressure in the game despite being a burst class. Don't believe us? Try dueling decent magsorcs for a day and you will have same conclusion.

Let's please not get into the me and several others argument because that's still subjective but also then just legitimizes arguments on all sides again which then means they all carry or don't carry the same weight.


Your words did make me think though and sorry if I missed your explanation but what are we defining pressure as and why does it matter. I'll explain.

For me in dueling there's enemies that make me change and adapt, there's those that I can kill or come to a draw with.

So if I'm on a sorc build that lacks healing then a magsorc can apply enough pressure that I'll have to respond to. I have no choice in the matter really so I suppose you could say I'm feeling the pressure.

If I'm on a dk, and I say so because that's a class that is admittedly just easy to play, I generally don't have to think as much or even a templar. Yes I'll respond to their damage but I'm usually just doing more of a rotation.

Now if we switch the other person to a dk or NB I won't instantly fold but I will become aware that they have a higher chance of landing a kill combo so I have to be mindful of the damage and feel pressure in that respect.

My overall point is that pressure isn't really universal in this game because wherever you find one player that's feeling it you can find another player that thinks it's not a big deal


So anyone can say anything has pressure because that's how they feel about it. Just like anyone is just as valid saying they didn't feel the pressure.

We shouldn't be using feelings or perceptions to balance a class. That's a job better left to either detailed analysis or making a change and judging real feedback.

StaticWave

Bushido2513 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

It's very easy to argue here about why magsorc lacks pressure, but I and many others who repeatedly tested every single class in a 1v1 scenario have come to the conclusion that magsorc has one of the best pressure in the game despite being a burst class. Don't believe us? Try dueling decent magsorcs for a day and you will have same conclusion.

Outside of 1v1s, sorc is still a burst class. It can still line up combos to kill someone in 1 GCD. B

StaticWave wrote: »

It's very easy to argue here about why magsorc lacks pressure, but I and many others who repeatedly tested every single class in a 1v1 scenario have come to the conclusion that magsorc has one of the best pressure in the game despite being a burst class. Don't believe us? Try dueling decent magsorcs for a day and you will have same conclusion.

Let's please not get into the me and several others argument because that's still subjective but also then just legitimizes arguments on all sides again which then means they all carry or don't carry the same weight.


Your words did make me think though and sorry if I missed your explanation but what are we defining pressure as and why does it matter. I'll explain.

For me in dueling there's enemies that make me change and adapt, there's those that I can kill or come to a draw with.

So if I'm on a sorc build that lacks healing then a magsorc can apply enough pressure that I'll have to respond to. I have no choice in the matter really so I suppose you could say I'm feeling the pressure.

If I'm on a dk, and I say so because that's a class that is admittedly just easy to play, I generally don't have to think as much or even a templar. Yes I'll respond to their damage but I'm usually just doing more of a rotation.

Now if we switch the other person to a dk or NB I won't instantly fold but I will become aware that they have a higher chance of landing a kill combo so I have to be mindful of the damage and feel pressure in that respect.

My overall point is that pressure isn't really universal in this game because wherever you find one player that's feeling it you can find another player that thinks it's not a big deal


So anyone can say anything has pressure because that's how they feel about it. Just like anyone is just as valid saying they didn't feel the pressure.

We shouldn't be using feelings or perceptions to balance a class. That's a job better left to either detailed analysis or making a change and judging real feedback.

@Bushido2513

When there's a community of 20+ people who have the same conclusion, who were also part of a guild that hosted several large tournaments on PC-NA over the past couple years, then I'm pretty sure it's not that subjective anymore. After all, my purpose as a moderator in Legend was to make sure every class had the best chance of winning in a 1v1. We didn't use feelings, but used CMX for data and input from various participants to make the rules.

So let me ask you, how is that based on feelings when the conclusion was based on data and input from multiple people who were willing to help? I could argue that people here are more subjective than we were. We did hundreds of tests in a controlled environment, whereas people who complain about sorc having weak damage here are, going by your words, using feelings or perceptions to balance a class. Where is the data to back up their claim that sorc has no pressure? As far as I can tell there is none. On the other hand, we had the some of best players duel against each other, some of whom are very active on the forums like @React, @Cloudrest, @MetallicMonk, etc. Keep in mind, these guys aren't just strictly duelers. They're also 1vXers, smallscallers, largescalers, and even BG players. I'm sure some people have seen React's stream.

So when we have the majority of decent players agree that sorc has pressure, then I think we need to consider that their experience may hold a lot of weight considering they're playing at the high level. However, that doesn't mean I don't think sorc's a punishing class for an average player. If you can't get your rotations right, then you're not going to deal as much DPS as possible on this class.

The issue I think you and many others confuse with is you're using two broken classes as a basis for your argument that sorc lacks pressure. They are outliers, and shouldn't be used as an example. DK stomps everything, but that doesn't mean sorc's damage is bad. It's just bad compared to a DK, but against everything else it's very good.

Will these top sorc players perform better on a DK or a NB? Against average players? Definitely. They'll most likely beat everyone else but other top tier DK mains, NB mains, and sorc mains who are on the same skill level as them. It'll take them time to learn the class even if it's overperforming.

That was why I have said multiple times in this thread that magsorc couldn't win a tournament because magplar or magdk always won. They beat everything else, but the fact that magsorc got to top 2/3 meant it could become top 1 if we fix the overperforming classes.

TechMaybeHic

From strictly a Cyrodil perspective I definitely am cognizant of sorcs damage ability. Both from fighting them and with them. The high end ones have not gone anywhere and you always have to be mindful when they show up. The notch just below and down kind of dropped for a while but seems to be back just spamming mages Wrath now in above 1v1s. A buddy I run with and Wind up in duo situations with, will wind up arriving after me, and it's crazy to watch how fast the players that tunneled me suddenly drop with the RANGED damage he can deal.

All anecdotal evidence, but I'm sure damage numbers somewhere bare it out.

If you want to help the more casual rather than the top guys; IMO I think it lies in survivability not buffing shields more. Shields and streak seem to still be very effective top end and comboed with pets or LOS, can make them little burst canons. The lower end seem to struggle with that and wind up being squish and unable to deal with pressure.

Only thing somewhat relating to damage being down for sorc is all the ranged damage specific counters. Wings now that it gives root/snare immunity is common again. Wardens can counter with slabs, NBs get free roll dodge, and the new mist forms are unevenly set on range mitigation.

StaticWave

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

From strictly a Cyrodil perspective I definitely am cognizant of sorcs damage ability. Both from fighting them and with them. The high end ones have not gone anywhere and you always have to be mindful when they show up. The notch just below and down kind of dropped for a while but seems to be back just spamming mages Wrath now in above 1v1s. A buddy I run with and Wind up in duo situations with, will wind up arriving after me, and it's crazy to watch how fast the players that tunneled me suddenly drop with the RANGED damage he can deal.

All anecdotal evidence, but I'm sure damage numbers somewhere bare it out.

If you want to help the more casual rather than the top guys; IMO I think it lies in survivability not buffing shields more. Shields and streak seem to still be very effective top end and comboed with pets or LOS, can make them little burst canons. The lower end seem to struggle with that and wind up being squish and unable to deal with pressure.

Only thing somewhat relating to damage being down for sorc is all the ranged damage specific counters. Wings now that it gives root/snare immunity is common again. Wardens can counter with slabs, NBs get free roll dodge, and the new mist forms are unevenly set on range mitigation.

I have the same experience as yours when duoing with a magsorc in Cyrodiil. As a melee brawler sorc, I'm usually a meat shield while my magsorc duo sits in the back for ranged support. It's crazy how fast he's able to melt people pounding on me and those sitting far behind the enemy line.

However, I am so very aware of casual magsorcs struggling to make the class work. Shielding is difficult in today's meta, no doubt about it. Hence, I fully support buffing heals so that casual players can choose an easier defensive option, while the high end ones can still keep shields as their main form of defense.

Bushido2513

StaticWave wrote: »

@Bushido2513

When there's a community of 20+ people who have the same conclusion, who were also part of a guild that hosted several large tournaments on PC-NA over the past couple years, then I'm pretty sure it's not that subjective anymore.

So in science we do have communities of experts and they always have ideas and things to say. So that they don't sit around and go back and forth they publish verifiable data so that other scientist can verify their findings. It's not enough to say x amount of people saw the same thing if you can't reproduce that thing so that others can test it. So while I understand what you're saying in order for me to get on board you'd have to give me organized data that I could go over in an attempt to reproduce what you're saying. Otherwise what's to stop me from claiming the same thing with a group of people to support my opinions and have us going back and forth?

If you notice, I never say that just because I saw something or did something that it's actually concrete to this game because I respect that no matter what I think, I don't have any concrete data to back it up.

StaticWave wrote: »

@Bushido2513


So let me ask you, how is that based on feelings when the conclusion was based on data and input from multiple people who were willing to help?

Showing the data makes it no longer based on feelings. It's like they say in math show your work. Currently you're basically saying hey I and my team have done tons of number crunching and we've got the results, trust us.

If I told you I did the number crunching and found that sorc was completely in need of every buff suggested in this thread would you just take my word for it or want to see all this detailed number crunching I've done to back up my word?

StaticWave wrote: »

I could argue that people here are more subjective than we were. We did hundreds of tests in a controlled environment, whereas people who complain about sorc having weak damage here are, going by your words, using feelings or perceptions to balance a class. Where is the data to back up their claim that sorc has no pressure? As far as I can tell there is none. On the other hand, we had the some of best players duel against each other, some of whom are very active on the forums like @React, @Cloudrest, @MetallicMonk, etc. Keep in mind, these guys aren't just strictly duelers. They're also 1vXers, smallscallers, largescalers, and even BG players. I'm sure some people have seen React's stream.

I've been one of the first to say that I don't think anyone here has anything other than their experience and that for the most part with the exception of fairly obvious things like let's say frags with burst and low travel time, everyone has ideas that could be worked in if done correctly.

That's pretty much the whole point I've been making, we all want sorc to be a certain way based on our experiences. Now what I can say from the data that's actually in this thread is that more people want changes to sorc than for nothing to be done at all. That's an actual fact that can be verified.

People just can't agree on what those changes should be and that makes sense based on individual desires and experiences.

StaticWave wrote: »

So when we have the majority of decent players agree that sorc has pressure, then I think we need to consider that their experience may hold a lot of weight considering they're playing at the high level.

Again this is something that has yet to and possibly couldn't even be easily proven. I don't say this to be simply argumentative but to be honest about the discussion. The only way anyone could know if a group was the majority and if they were "decent" players would be to know all opinions of all players including their ranking as a player. I've come to have to remind myself over time that I think I know what level of player I am but that it's just a guess since the community is so large and there are platforms I don't even play on.

Organized sports can be an interesting example of this. Some would argue that professional athletes have the best opinions on anything in a given sport because they are well the professionals. People tend to forget that they are just the ones that were given the opportunity to rise to the top because of whatever circumstances. There are still better athletes than the ones we see on camera, they just didn't turn famous for whatever reason.

Likewise in ESO just because someone didn't enter a tournament doesn't mean that they aren't out there with more information and experience than any of us. Twenty plus players is technically just a vocal minority when you factor in the size of the ESO player base.

StaticWave wrote: »

The issue I think you and many others confuse with is you're using two broken classes as a basis for your argument that sorc lacks pressure. They are outliers, and shouldn't be used as an example. DK stomps everything, but that doesn't mean sorc's damage is bad. It's just bad compared to a DK, but against everything else it's very good.

So outliers in that they don't represent the damage for most classes. I could agree to that, seems pretty obvious. Now outliser as far as what I and others run up against when playing the game. That's a whole other debate.

So here's the thing, maybe you don't run up against that many dks, maybe you don't run into good ones, maybe you don't care if you run into 10 of them. My point is that if someone here cares enough to say something then that's what we call a pain point for them. You don't have to share in their pain point but you do have to accept that it's enough of a pain point for I and others to mention. Again this is subjective to my experiences but without hard, extensive, verifiable, repeatable data sets this whole thread is just people relating their experiences. I'm totally ok with that by the way. I think that we need to get these thoughts out there and maybe ZOS will read all of them and take action as they do or don't see fit.

By the way I could sit here and say to you that DKs are so good, everyone is on DK so that means sorc needs buffs. And in some ways I did say that BUT, I'm not going to say that I have any backing that you should follow, just that it's my opinion based on my experiences so take it with a grain of salt, same as anyone here relating their experiences.

StaticWave wrote: »

That was why I have said multiple times in this thread that magsorc couldn't win a tournament because magplar or magdk always won. They beat everything else, but the fact that magsorc got to top 2/3 meant it could become top 1 if we fix the overperforming classes.

I would agree with this and the reason I'm here and not in a nerf dk or nb thread is because it's pretty clear ZOS isn't yet on that path of thinking and well there are plenty of other people supporting that opinion already. So I'm just here talking about the other side of things. If they don't want to nerf the heavy hitters then how about some buffs for the guy in the number 3 spot?

Again I never said that I know that things should go one way or another but change starts with ideas so I'm just here to give my opinion and keep an open mind.

Bushido2513

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

A buddy I run with and Wind up in duo situations with, will wind up arriving after me, and it's crazy to watch how fast the players that tunneled me suddenly drop with the RANGED damage he can deal.

I'd just like to add that there's usually a big variation in skill and build quality in groups that are willing to tunnel one player. I say variation because sometimes you have coordinated small groups that do it that hit hard but a lot of times when players are grouping one player they are just as likely to be potatoes who would easily fall to any old burst rotation, hard hitting or not.

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

Only thing somewhat relating to damage being down for sorc is all the ranged damage specific counters. Wings now that it gives root/snare immunity is common again. Wardens can counter with slabs, NBs get free roll dodge, and the new mist forms are unevenly set on range mitigation.

I didn't even get into listing specific counters because I felt that would be unfair as not everyone runs them but yeah Warden with slab and netch to cleanse curse is quite an issue for sorc. Again that's very specific though nb can get free rolls and well dk just has to hold block and coag among other things.