I do not want Sorcerer buffs.

MetallicMonk

I'm a petty man, I'd rather nerf Nightblade, Warden, and Dragonknight so that you actually have to try on those classes and not succeed while playing with your eyelashes.

VaranisArano

An oldie but a goodie:

ForumBully

VaranisArano wrote: »

An oldie but a goodie:

From the old days when ZoS pretended Dragonknights didn't exist and Templars seemed untouchable and the others didn't exist...the gif needs to be updated to cycle through them all now because players only ask for nerfs, never buffs.

deejayvee

Yeah, because the only people who should be able to enjoy playing this game are those who put in the time, effort and dedication, right?

Bushido2513

deejayvee wrote: »

Yeah, because the only people who should be able to enjoy playing this game are those who put in the time, effort and dedication, right?

It's not quite that simple. Experienced and non experienced should both have ways to enjoy the game but that comes with balance. I know they said they wanted nerfs but what we really all want is balance.

The answer really isn't buffs or nerfs but actual balance which is what we aren't getting.

MetallicMonk

deejayvee wrote: »

Yeah, because the only people who should be able to enjoy playing this game are those who put in the time, effort and dedication, right?

When vs other players yes.

StaticWave

deejayvee wrote: »

Yeah, because the only people who should be able to enjoy playing this game are those who put in the time, effort and dedication, right?

Not saying Warden or some classes didn't need buffs, but ZOS making the game easier and handing out unnecessary buffs is why we have this everlasting issue of class imbalance.

FYI, if ZOS ever went ahead and buffed Sorc, the top end sorcs will dominate other classes. The gap between top end and low/medium end sorcs is THAT big.

Pelanora

If everyone's special, noone is.

Id settle for useful.



Id really like wings tho.

Fugus

Still leveling so can't say much about endgame or pvp but my biggest gripe so far with my sorcerer has to be the short duration on the bubble. Six seconds on a bubble that can get popped pretty easy.

Just please set it up to last at least 15 seconds (Preferably 30) baseline so, even if it can't absorb more, at least I am not having to refresh it as often when I am not getting hit because many attacks can almost 1 shot me if I don't have it up and some can 1 shot me even with it up.

And if anyone wants to complain about people stacking the bubbles (Which would be hard to maintain given the resource cost along with the 6 second duration with the 1 second GCD. The best way to address that would be to just not allow the bubbles to stack and have it where if a new bubble is applied, you apply the duration of whichever bubble is longer as well as setting the amount it can absorb to whichever has the greater capacity between the two and just have the bubble refreshed instead. Then balance sorcerers around not stacking multiple bubbles.

I mean I can talent it to 10 seconds but even that is really short.

Bushido2513

MetallicMonk wrote: »

deejayvee wrote: »

Yeah, because the only people who should be able to enjoy playing this game are those who put in the time, effort and dedication, right?

When vs other players yes.

Or the less experienced could zerg till they get better and the more experienced could pick them off every now and then? Boom, fun for all parties lol

Bushido2513

StaticWave wrote: »

deejayvee wrote: »

Yeah, because the only people who should be able to enjoy playing this game are those who put in the time, effort and dedication, right?

FYI, if ZOS ever went ahead and buffed Sorc, the top end sorcs will dominate other classes. The gap between top end and low/medium end sorcs is THAT big.

I remember the days when shields would hold off entire groups and sorc could pretty much possibly two tap you if you weren't paying correctly.

Sorcs including myself can still get kills but it's far from the dominating spec it once was.

VixxVexx

Maybe not straight up buffing tooltips, but update it to current standards:

• control the distance of streak with cursor/camera
• both pets one bar only
• extend bound aegis so it works with expert summoner
• give a debuff effect to the ability literally called curse
• turn one negate morph into an exhaust effect (stam negate)
• make one encase morph 360 instead of in front of you
• have streak proc strike from shadows
• turn mages wrath into a spammable (non-projectile so actually useful)
• make a daedric mine morph into an active where you place a mine on rolling or streaking
• blood magic should scale with highest stat
• nerf sorc

AdamLAD

StaticWave wrote: »

deejayvee wrote: »

Yeah, because the only people who should be able to enjoy playing this game are those who put in the time, effort and dedication, right?

Not saying Warden or some classes didn't need buffs, but ZOS making the game easier and handing out unnecessary buffs is why we have this everlasting issue of class imbalance.

FYI, if ZOS ever went ahead and buffed Sorc, the top end sorcs will dominate other classes. The gap between top end and low/medium end sorcs is THAT big.

Agreed static. However it still doesn't negate the fact sorcerer is lacking. Stam and mag wise. It's not the players fault that they will dominate, for being brought up to par to other classes. I've always found the gap between sorcerer and other classes being huge in terms of low and high end players. You might see an extremely good DK often, or a NB. But very seldom a extremly good sorcerer as the gaps that big. And this is not just in the last year this is being going on for a while.

However I can't pinpoint as to why this is the case. Is sorcerer harder to play/takes more skill ? Or is it simply due to popularity of other classes over sorcerer ? Both ? I can't say for certain. However I can say NB is so easy compared to a sorcerer and DK in its current state is braindead. I've played both. However in the past these classes were not so easy as they are today

StaticWave

Bushido2513 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

deejayvee wrote: »

Yeah, because the only people who should be able to enjoy playing this game are those who put in the time, effort and dedication, right?

FYI, if ZOS ever went ahead and buffed Sorc, the top end sorcs will dominate other classes. The gap between top end and low/medium end sorcs is THAT big.

I remember the days when shields would hold off entire groups and sorc could pretty much possibly two tap you if you weren't paying correctly.

Sorcs including myself can still get kills but it's far from the dominating spec it once was.

I remember that iteration of sorc very well. Watching SypherPK tanking 5-6 people made me pick sorc as my first PvP class lol.

I have no doubts that if that version of sorc returned, the class would dominate once again.

StaticWave

AdamLAD wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

deejayvee wrote: »

Yeah, because the only people who should be able to enjoy playing this game are those who put in the time, effort and dedication, right?

Not saying Warden or some classes didn't need buffs, but ZOS making the game easier and handing out unnecessary buffs is why we have this everlasting issue of class imbalance.

FYI, if ZOS ever went ahead and buffed Sorc, the top end sorcs will dominate other classes. The gap between top end and low/medium end sorcs is THAT big.

Agreed static. However it still doesn't negate the fact sorcerer is lacking. Stam and mag wise. It's not the players fault that they will dominate, for being brought up to par to other classes. I've always found the gap between sorcerer and other classes being huge in terms of low and high end players. You might see an extremely good DK often, or a NB. But very seldom a extremly good sorcerer as the gaps that big. And this is not just in the last year this is being going on for a while.

However I can't pinpoint as to why this is the case. Is sorcerer harder to play/takes more skill ? Or is it simply due to popularity of other classes over sorcerer ? Both ? I can't say for certain. However I can say NB is so easy compared to a sorcerer and DK in its current state is braindead. I've played both. However in the past these classes were not so easy as they are today

Well the way I see it is, sorc has been nerfed substantially over the years, while other classes have been BUFFED. If you were to pitch the current classes against the iteration of sorc that had no cost increase Streak, Frag with CC, Major Protection working on shields and shields taking zero crit dmg, etc, while keeping hybridization, you would quickly see how dominating sorc is.

Imagine a sorc in the current hybridization meta that can streak 10x in a row, has Cfrag that can stun, has BoL because Streak isn’t needed, has Vigor and Harden + Dampen, and 25k+ HP instead of 16k HP due to HP inflation, etc. I don’t think any class can fight that iteration of sorc.

I’ve seen quite a few comments asking for sorc to be given its old glory. I don’t think it’s a good idea at all.

Alpheu5

Fugus wrote: »

Still leveling so can't say much about endgame or pvp but my biggest gripe so far with my sorcerer has to be the short duration on the bubble. Six seconds on a bubble that can get popped pretty easy.

Just please set it up to last at least 15 seconds (Preferably 30) baseline so, even if it can't absorb more, at least I am not having to refresh it as often when I am not getting hit because many attacks can almost 1 shot me if I don't have it up and some can 1 shot me even with it up.

And if anyone wants to complain about people stacking the bubbles (Which would be hard to maintain given the resource cost along with the 6 second duration with the 1 second GCD. The best way to address that would be to just not allow the bubbles to stack and have it where if a new bubble is applied, you apply the duration of whichever bubble is longer as well as setting the amount it can absorb to whichever has the greater capacity between the two and just have the bubble refreshed instead. Then balance sorcerers around not stacking multiple bubbles.

I mean I can talent it to 10 seconds but even that is really short.

They specifically changed wards from 20 sec down to 6 in 2016 because it was way too easy to defend yourself proactively and made it too easy to recover if they weren't immediately destroyed. Sorcs would just run around with these massive buffers to their health at no strain to their magicka.

The last thing this game's balance needs is to have old sorc survivability combined with the new ward mechanics and the braindead heavy attack meta.

Fugus

Alpheu5 wrote: »

They specifically changed wards from 20 sec down to 6 in 2016 because it was way too easy to defend yourself proactively and made it too easy to recover if they weren't immediately destroyed. Sorcs would just run around with these massive buffers to their health at no strain to their magicka.

The last thing this game's balance needs is to have old sorc survivability combined with the new ward mechanics and the braindead heavy attack meta.

I wasn't playing in 2016 but in 2016 the state of the class might have called for a change. I don't know if they had plate level mitigation passively or massive health pools or the bubble absorbed more than their life totals or what.

The fact is, CURRENTLY, that change does more harm than good given their current setup. The bubbles aren't massive and don't absorb huge amounts and have had mobs take out my bubble and me in a single hit or close to it.

I am betting the issue that created those huge buffers was the sorcerers stacking multiple bubbles to create it. If that was the case, they went about it the wrong way and instead should have just made it where the bubbles didn't stack instead of forcing you to spam them over 4th cool down even if it didn't break and if something is hitting on you it will likely break within their first or second hit.

Never said anything about returning the a state I never experienced, just mentioned fixing a mechanic that right now feels broken by design to the point of pure frustration to maintain. Returning the bubble to its old duration without actually increasing how much it can absorb and not allowing it to stack wouldn't add more survivability (Which the class needs from what I can tell in the PvP sections along with the anecdotes where I have tried randoms and literally died within 3 seconds).

If they want to keep the bubble as a 6 second thing, than it should have how much it absorbs increased massively to actually have it work as a preemptive shield. Otherwise, if it is just a basic assumed mitigation form for it, increase it's duration while leaving its absorb amount be the same.

Is the bubble an "Oh Crap" button? Or is it not? Because right now it has the duration as an emergency recovery while the amount it absorbs for says otherwise when it can pop so easily.

StaticWave

Fugus wrote: »

Alpheu5 wrote: »

They specifically changed wards from 20 sec down to 6 in 2016 because it was way too easy to defend yourself proactively and made it too easy to recover if they weren't immediately destroyed. Sorcs would just run around with these massive buffers to their health at no strain to their magicka.

The last thing this game's balance needs is to have old sorc survivability combined with the new ward mechanics and the braindead heavy attack meta.

I wasn't playing in 2016 but in 2016 the state of the class might have called for a change. I don't know if they had plate level mitigation passively or massive health pools or the bubble absorbed more than their life totals or what.

The fact is, CURRENTLY, that change does more harm than good given their current setup. The bubbles aren't massive and don't absorb huge amounts and have had mobs take out my bubble and me in a single hit or close to it.

I am betting the issue that created those huge buffers was the sorcerers stacking multiple bubbles to create it. If that was the case, they went about it the wrong way and instead should have just made it where the bubbles didn't stack instead of forcing you to spam them over 4th cool down even if it didn't break and if something is hitting on you it will likely break within their first or second hit.

Never said anything about returning the a state I never experienced, just mentioned fixing a mechanic that right now feels broken by design to the point of pure frustration to maintain. Returning the bubble to its old duration without actually increasing how much it can absorb and not allowing it to stack wouldn't add more survivability (Which the class needs from what I can tell in the PvP sections along with the anecdotes where I have tried randoms and literally died within 3 seconds).

If they want to keep the bubble as a 6 second thing, than it should have how much it absorbs increased massively to actually have it work as a preemptive shield. Otherwise, if it is just a basic assumed mitigation form for it, increase it's duration while leaving its absorb amount be the same.

Is the bubble an "Oh Crap" button? Or is it not? Because right now it has the duration as an emergency recovery while the amount it absorbs for says otherwise when it can pop so easily.

What’s the ideal value you think shield should have?

FeedbackOnly

Pelanora wrote: »

If everyone's special, noone is.

Id settle for useful.



Id really like wings tho.

Flying sorcerers? Idk my immersion does not agree

Fugus

StaticWave wrote: »

What’s the ideal value you think shield should have?

Depends on what the intended purpose for the bubble is.

If it is meant as an "Oh Crap" button, then the 6 second duration is fine and it needs to have its absorb increased to something that can't be popped in a single hit from a strong ability and then put a cool down on it. What that is, I couldn't really say.

If it is meant as a normal form of mitigation, then its amount is fine and it's duration needs to be returned to the 20 second duration at a minimum, honestly longer than that. At least then it won't be a move we had to babysit just to keep something going. Popping when hit at that point will be a given as it isn't meant as a major defensive ability.

But having the bubble be the worst of both worlds where you have to massively proactive about it to get any use out of it but at the same time it absorb so little that it might not change much doesn't help. Especially against spammed abilities.

I don't know what the numbers should be but they need to pick a lane on what they want it to be and treat those numbers accordingly.

Is it an emergency move? Fine, short duration massive absorb.
Is it a casual mitigation? Fine, long duration with the current absorb.

Instead, we got the worst part of the emergency move combine with the worst part of the casual mitigation. It's better than nothing, but that's not saying much.

AdamLAD

Just reduce the cost of the wards

StaticWave

Fugus wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

What’s the ideal value you think shield should have?

Depends on what the intended purpose for the bubble is.

If it is meant as an "Oh Crap" button, then the 6 second duration is fine and it needs to have its absorb increased to something that can't be popped in a single hit from a strong ability and then put a cool down on it. What that is, I couldn't really say.

If it is meant as a normal form of mitigation, then its amount is fine and it's duration needs to be returned to the 20 second duration at a minimum, honestly longer than that. At least then it won't be a move we had to babysit just to keep something going. Popping when hit at that point will be a given as it isn't meant as a major defensive ability.

But having the bubble be the worst of both worlds where you have to massively proactive about it to get any use out of it but at the same time it absorb so little that it might not change much doesn't help. Especially against spammed abilities.

I don't know what the numbers should be but they need to pick a lane on what they want it to be and treat those numbers accordingly.

Is it an emergency move? Fine, short duration massive absorb.
Is it a casual mitigation? Fine, long duration with the current absorb.

Instead, we got the worst part of the emergency move combine with the worst part of the casual mitigation. It's better than nothing, but that's not saying much.

Back in 2016, it used to be both an "Oh Crap" button and a normal form of mitigation. However, you would have sorcs that stack Harden + Dampen with a 20s duration each and ran around in basically 22-25k pseudo HP on top of their 16-18k HP lol. It was like entering a fight with a 40k HP warden. Healing Ward was also a burst heal at the time so if they ever got low they would just stack 2 shields over Healing Ward until it expired and gave them a 7-8k burst heal.

Most sorcs currently ask for a bigger shield. A normal 50k mag sorc usually sits at ~12k shields with Bastion, so I'm wondering what shield value they are asking for.

Fugus

StaticWave wrote: »

Back in 2016, it used to be both an "Oh Crap" button and a normal form of mitigation. However, you would have sorcs that stack Harden + Dampen with a 20s duration each and ran around in basically 22-25k pseudo HP on top of their 16-18k HP lol. It was like entering a fight with a 40k HP warden. Healing Ward was also a burst heal at the time so if they ever got low they would just stack 2 shields over Healing Ward until it expired and gave them a 7-8k burst heal.

Most sorcs currently ask for a bigger shield. A normal 50k mag sorc usually sits at ~12k shields with Bastion, so I'm wondering what shield value they are asking for.

I bought the game back in 2015 to play with my brother but he never got into it so it stayed in my steam library till around a month ago. So no experience with any of that back then. Sounds like they messed up then and then took the worst option to address it.

They shouldn't have nerfed the durations, they should have just removed the ability for them to stack. Haven't use Bastian yet, have Ember and Isobella right now and only even messed with Ember so far.

Just removing the ability to self stack would have made that so much easier to balance and deal with. I specify self-stack to still allow for gear procs or others the ability to cast them if they can which wouldn't be near as overpowered by comparison.

As I said before, I haven't ran any of the endgame stuff and my PvP has been very little with it being just a few random daily battlegrounds where I have had times where I could jump off the ledge into the area and literally be dead before I hit the ground and I started with the bubble up when I jumped.

I just wish they would pick a lane on what they want it to be.

If it's a major defense then its absorb needs to be massively higher than it is and the duration is fine at which point they need to do something to help shore up the sorcerers horrible mitigation otherwise.

If it's a minor defense, then its overall absorb amount is fine but it's duration needs to be massively increased to compensate.

But this crap where it doesn't fill the role of either is for the birds.

VixxVexx

Talking about shield size, just look at this lmao. Compare the damage shield on hardened armor vs sorc shieds.

Hardened Armor is 16% of Max Health (30.99 x 1.033 / 2 = ~16% HP)
Regen Ward is 17% of Max Health (34.089 / 2 = ~17% HP)
Hardened Ward is 23% of Max Health (44.316 x 1.033 / 2 = ~23% HP)

The 1.033 is a 3.3% skill rank 4 modifier that applies after the health scaling.
Regen morph of sorc shield doesn't have rank modifier.
The /2 is because battlespirit.
This is with new PTS values.
DK skill is like 35% cheaper. (standardization omegalul)

Turtle_Bot

VixxVexx wrote: »

Talking about shield size, just look at this lmao. Compare the damage shield on hardened armor vs sorc shieds.

Hardened Armor is 16% of Max Health (30.99 x 1.033 / 2 = ~16% HP)
Regen Ward is 17% of Max Health (34.089 / 2 = ~17% HP)
Hardened Ward is 23% of Max Health (44.316 x 1.033 / 2 = ~23% HP)

The 1.033 is a 3.3% skill rank 4 modifier that applies after the health scaling.
Regen morph of sorc shield doesn't have rank modifier.
The /2 is because battlespirit.
This is with new PTS values.
DK skill is like 35% cheaper. (standardization omegalul)

@ZOS_Kevin Can we get some insight/explanation into this obvious disparity between these 2 abilities, DK's armor buff that has a shield as a secondary effect and the sorcerers shield where the shield is the primary effect?

Particularly since the sorcerers shield is capped while only providing common, named minor regen passives and the DK skill being uncapped, grants the major armor buff, a comparable shield value, as well as providing damage return (a unique mechanic) while also being roughly 35% cheaper than the sorcerer ability?

Also, if more of these types of discrepancies need to be pointed out for the team to see just how far the sorcerer has fallen behind the other classes due to the way the game has been changed over the years, I would be more than happy to go through the sorcerers entire kit (or I can just find & link my original thread from a few months ago on this exact subject) and provide many additional direct comparisons where the sorcerers abilities and passives are just objectively worse/outdated than their counterparts from other classes while also not being given any relevant additional effects to make up for this clear discrepancy in power.

Brrrofski

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

VixxVexx wrote: »

Talking about shield size, just look at this lmao. Compare the damage shield on hardened armor vs sorc shieds.

Hardened Armor is 16% of Max Health (30.99 x 1.033 / 2 = ~16% HP)
Regen Ward is 17% of Max Health (34.089 / 2 = ~17% HP)
Hardened Ward is 23% of Max Health (44.316 x 1.033 / 2 = ~23% HP)

The 1.033 is a 3.3% skill rank 4 modifier that applies after the health scaling.
Regen morph of sorc shield doesn't have rank modifier.
The /2 is because battlespirit.
This is with new PTS values.
DK skill is like 35% cheaper. (standardization omegalul)

@ZOS_Kevin Can we get some insight/explanation into this obvious disparity between these 2 abilities, DK's armor buff that has a shield as a secondary effect and the sorcerers shield where the shield is the primary effect?

Particularly since the sorcerers shield is capped while only providing common, named minor regen passives and the DK skill being uncapped, grants the major armor buff, a comparable shield value, as well as providing damage return (a unique mechanic) while also being roughly 35% cheaper than the sorcerer ability?

Also, if more of these types of discrepancies need to be pointed out for the team to see just how far the sorcerer has fallen behind the other classes due to the way the game has been changed over the years, I would be more than happy to go through the sorcerers entire kit (or I can just find & link my original thread from a few months ago on this exact subject) and provide many additional direct comparisons where the sorcerers abilities and passives are just objectively worse/outdated than their counterparts from other classes while also not being given any relevant additional effects to make up for this clear discrepancy in power.

To be honest, shields are just way worse than healing anyway.

If I'm on a DK and eat 15k damage, a dragon blood gives me an 8k heal (that's being generous too). So two of them and I'm full health.

On a sorc, I have to cast a ward, cast vigor that gives me like 7k health over time, so I have to keep my ward up to guarantee I get that health back. Then do it again to get to full health.

That's a lot of lost offence time.

the1andonlyskwex

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

VixxVexx wrote: »

Talking about shield size, just look at this lmao. Compare the damage shield on hardened armor vs sorc shieds.

Hardened Armor is 16% of Max Health (30.99 x 1.033 / 2 = ~16% HP)
Regen Ward is 17% of Max Health (34.089 / 2 = ~17% HP)
Hardened Ward is 23% of Max Health (44.316 x 1.033 / 2 = ~23% HP)

The 1.033 is a 3.3% skill rank 4 modifier that applies after the health scaling.
Regen morph of sorc shield doesn't have rank modifier.
The /2 is because battlespirit.
This is with new PTS values.
DK skill is like 35% cheaper. (standardization omegalul)

@ZOS_Kevin Can we get some insight/explanation into this obvious disparity between these 2 abilities, DK's armor buff that has a shield as a secondary effect and the sorcerers shield where the shield is the primary effect?

Particularly since the sorcerers shield is capped while only providing common, named minor regen passives and the DK skill being uncapped, grants the major armor buff, a comparable shield value, as well as providing damage return (a unique mechanic) while also being roughly 35% cheaper than the sorcerer ability?

Also, if more of these types of discrepancies need to be pointed out for the team to see just how far the sorcerer has fallen behind the other classes due to the way the game has been changed over the years, I would be more than happy to go through the sorcerers entire kit (or I can just find & link my original thread from a few months ago on this exact subject) and provide many additional direct comparisons where the sorcerers abilities and passives are just objectively worse/outdated than their counterparts from other classes while also not being given any relevant additional effects to make up for this clear discrepancy in power.

The comparison isn't really apples to apples. Hardened armor only scales off max health, while Hardened Ward can scale off of max health or magicka. For magicka-based builds (hitting the 55% health cap), Hardened Ward's shield will be almost 2x larger than Hardened Armor's.

VixxVexx

We're comparing the other morph. Hardened Ward is stronger for sure. I'm arguing that the second morph is lackluster.
It's also easier to get 40k health than it is to get 40k mag.

the1andonlyskwex

VixxVexx wrote: »

We're comparing the other morph. Hardened Ward is stronger for sure. I'm arguing that the second morph is lackluster.
It's also easier to get 40k health than it is to get 40k mag.

Regenerative Ward is also almost 2x larger than Hardened Armor (55/2% vs 32/2%), plus it has a group sustain buff. You use Regenerative Ward because you want the group buff, not because you need the shield.

Edit: The 10 second duration of Regenerative Ward also has value you don't get with other shields, but it's harder to quantify.

PhoenixGrey

Except ZOS nerfing nightblade or dk is a far fetched dream at this point

Even if that happened sorc will still be ***
Just remove battle spirit effect from wards already

VixxVexx

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

VixxVexx wrote: »

We're comparing the other morph. Hardened Ward is stronger for sure. I'm arguing that the second morph is lackluster.
It's also easier to get 40k health than it is to get 40k mag.

Regenerative Ward is also almost 2x larger than Hardened Armor (55/2% vs 32/2%), plus it has a group sustain buff. You use Regenerative Ward because you want the group buff, not because you need the shield.

Edit: The 10 second duration of Regenerative Ward also has value you don't get with other shields, but it's harder to quantify.

Sir that's the Max Health cap not the scaling. Scaling for Regen Ward is 34%.