I do not want Sorcerer buffs.

jaws343

ForumBully wrote: »

Zabagad wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Removing the cast time on Cfrag and reducing the dmg would make the ability weaker, fyi. Also, we already have something like that and it’s called Cwep.

I just wanted to point out, that I'm ok if they have to adjust it - otherwise you and others would say "it's OP" anyways.

ForumBully wrote: »

Yeah, I definitely don't want to see CFrags reduced to a baseline spammable, I'm quite happy with Crushing or CWep as that option. If they want to give Crushing a little more by way of revisiting the destro line, great, but CFrags should remain as is.

Who would be hurt if the hardcast dmg would be less? I don't know any sorc who use the hardcast frag anyway.
And I didn't say it must be reduced - It's only something I would accept if the excel guy needs to get it in line with his standard.
I only want an option to get one barslot free - if you want to fill that slot with CS you are free to do so

Maybe we're crossing our lines here, but CWep is the spammable and CFrags is the proc burst...I don't typically run CWep because I find it unreliable needing the LAs to land in open world and lag, so I don't have any strong feelings about what gets done with that morph, but I love CFrag, not for the hard cast but for the proc cast....compared to something like spectral bow it's a dream...and yes I know spec bow is miles ahead on damage, it's not nearly as easy to use or land as CFrags which procs all the time.
I would be hurt if CFrags wasn't what it is and became some generic spammable.

I think it is important to note that hard casting cfrag is meant to be the Mag spammable for the class. Not Cwep. Cwep is the stam spammable.

ForumBully

jaws343 wrote: »

ForumBully wrote: »

Zabagad wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Removing the cast time on Cfrag and reducing the dmg would make the ability weaker, fyi. Also, we already have something like that and it’s called Cwep.

I just wanted to point out, that I'm ok if they have to adjust it - otherwise you and others would say "it's OP" anyways.

ForumBully wrote: »

Yeah, I definitely don't want to see CFrags reduced to a baseline spammable, I'm quite happy with Crushing or CWep as that option. If they want to give Crushing a little more by way of revisiting the destro line, great, but CFrags should remain as is.

Who would be hurt if the hardcast dmg would be less? I don't know any sorc who use the hardcast frag anyway.
And I didn't say it must be reduced - It's only something I would accept if the excel guy needs to get it in line with his standard.
I only want an option to get one barslot free - if you want to fill that slot with CS you are free to do so

Maybe we're crossing our lines here, but CWep is the spammable and CFrags is the proc burst...I don't typically run CWep because I find it unreliable needing the LAs to land in open world and lag, so I don't have any strong feelings about what gets done with that morph, but I love CFrag, not for the hard cast but for the proc cast....compared to something like spectral bow it's a dream...and yes I know spec bow is miles ahead on damage, it's not nearly as easy to use or land as CFrags which procs all the time.
I would be hurt if CFrags wasn't what it is and became some generic spammable.

I think it is important to note that hard casting cfrag is meant to be the Mag spammable for the class. Not Cwep. Cwep is the stam spammable.

That's a fair point, I just always act as if the subclass doesn't have a spammable. Even there Sorc is in good company for crappy spammables with Necro, Warden and now Templars. Right now, I guess I'm just happy for the role CFrags does fill.

Bushido2513

StaticWave wrote: »

Removing the cast time on Cfrag and reducing the dmg would make the ability weaker, fyi. Also, we already have something like that and it’s called Cwep.

So I'm not sure that's true because wouldn't that be depending on

StaticWave wrote: »

Zabagad wrote: »

MetallicMonk wrote: »

My entire opinion on this is just that I don't want sorcerer to be overbuffed and especially in the wrong areas and become what nightblade is to me now, boring. I was half serious and half joking when I made the thread but the true part is I don't really agree with the popular mindset we shouldn't be nerfing classes we should be buffing the underperforming ones, I absolutely think some classes like nightblade and dragonknight need nerfs. I don't want everybody on a homogenized roided up version of their class that completely ignores any of the classes intended weaknesses and playstyle.

I definitely think sorc could use some quality of life changes and some small buffs, shield cost reduction, something to beef up the defense a bit, access to one more buff or debuff in our class kit to have one more free slot on the bar, something along those lines would be great though I'm not really big on the burst heal idea.

It's just my opinion and I know people of varying experience want to play sorc but I just appreciate that it's one of the classes that feels a lot better with time put into it and always has been since I've played. Also I think people who are trying to enjoy it in more casual lower level aspects shouldn't have high standards necessarily too, I see a lot of lightning heavy attack builds lately from sorcerer in PvP and PvE and they seem to perform well enough for someone who isn't willing or able to make it work in more demanding situations.

So yeah buff sorc just don't go insane with it.

This sounds much better then your inital post and the headline

As an average (maybe slightly below avg?) mag sorc player I suffer since hybrid update.
I would be totally happy with 2 small changes:
1) Give us major prophecy (and savagery) in our passives or on curse or whatever (but not on pets pls)
2) Remove the cast time on frag (if that would be OP? --> reduce the damage to "standard" but keep current proc damage as it is) so that we can finally use it as our class internal spammable.

With these two changes we get 2 barslots free (magelight and CS) and this would give us many options to build for/with.

My 3rd wish

would be that our internal shields could crit. (or we get a flat increase with the crit chance * crit dmg formula - eg 40% chance with 50% critdmg equals 20% bigger) I personly think that it would be fair compared to heals, but because this already was discussed back and forth and so its not my main point here

Removing the cast time on Cfrag and reducing the dmg would make the ability weaker, fyi. Also, we already have something like that and it’s called Cwep.

I don't think it would the way he described it because he still wanted to keep the proc and have it have no cast time. I understand you're starting at reduced damage but depending on damage reduction if you compare it with rng for the extra damage from frags it could be made to be mathematically similar while making the skill feel a bit different.

Also I would point out this opens up some choices on your front bar weapon being that using cwep requires that you light attack within range of the weapon you're wielding.

I'm not saying I'd vote for this without seeing it in action but pointing out that it can be done and still be close to the same damage overall.

Bushido2513

ForumBully wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

ForumBully wrote: »

Zabagad wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Removing the cast time on Cfrag and reducing the dmg would make the ability weaker, fyi. Also, we already have something like that and it’s called Cwep.

I just wanted to point out, that I'm ok if they have to adjust it - otherwise you and others would say "it's OP" anyways.

ForumBully wrote: »

Yeah, I definitely don't want to see CFrags reduced to a baseline spammable, I'm quite happy with Crushing or CWep as that option. If they want to give Crushing a little more by way of revisiting the destro line, great, but CFrags should remain as is.

Who would be hurt if the hardcast dmg would be less? I don't know any sorc who use the hardcast frag anyway.
And I didn't say it must be reduced - It's only something I would accept if the excel guy needs to get it in line with his standard.
I only want an option to get one barslot free - if you want to fill that slot with CS you are free to do so

Maybe we're crossing our lines here, but CWep is the spammable and CFrags is the proc burst...I don't typically run CWep because I find it unreliable needing the LAs to land in open world and lag, so I don't have any strong feelings about what gets done with that morph, but I love CFrag, not for the hard cast but for the proc cast....compared to something like spectral bow it's a dream...and yes I know spec bow is miles ahead on damage, it's not nearly as easy to use or land as CFrags which procs all the time.
I would be hurt if CFrags wasn't what it is and became some generic spammable.

I think it is important to note that hard casting cfrag is meant to be the Mag spammable for the class. Not Cwep. Cwep is the stam spammable.

That's a fair point, I just always act as if the subclass doesn't have a spammable. Even there Sorc is in good company for crappy spammables with Necro, Warden and now Templars. Right now, I guess I'm just happy for the role CFrags does fill.

cfrags is fun especially when the rng mini game lands on your side. I do think though that it could still keep that trademark as a spammable with instant cast. And the only reason I vote for instant cast in any regard is because I think it would open up another gameplay option for sorc and technically would add a bit of healing that sorc needs anyway, not that it would totally fill that void of course.

Zabagad

Bushido2513 wrote: »

because I think it would open up another gameplay option for sorc and technically would add a bit of healing that sorc needs anyway, not that it would totally fill that void of course.

You got me

Bushido2513 wrote: »

I don't think it would the way he described it because he still wanted to keep the proc and have it have no cast time. I understand you're starting at reduced damage but depending on damage reduction if you compare it with rng for the extra damage from frags it could be made to be mathematically similar while making the skill feel a bit different.

Also I would point out this opens up some choices on your front bar weapon being that using cwep requires that you light attack within range of the weapon you're wielding.

I'm not saying I'd vote for this without seeing it in action but pointing out that it can be done and still be close to the same damage overall.

Exactely

To make it maybe clear with numbers - lets say frag is doing right now 6K base dmg and 10K for the procced frag. (+66%)
Then I say - IF(!) the spreadsheet guy (or many others like static) think that cast time remove is OP (if not im happy, but I'm not good enough on the highest level to judge) - so IF it would be necessary to reduce dmg to the "standard" then reduce the base dmg to 5K and give 100% extra dmg (instead of 66%) so that the procced frag still hits with 10K.
Crystal weapon should be untouched at all - don't worry @static

I guess almost nobody (some niche player are always there) would be weaker with the 6K->5K reduce of the actually hard cast base frag. But everybody had then the chance to deside if they still want to use CS/eleWpn as their spammable until frag procs or if they use the chance to fill that slot with something different.
You can still slot frag and only use the proc like before.
But it would be an option to get more build variations (especially with my other wish and another free spot)
Right now there is not much build variation of mag(!) Sorcs - not in the sets and not in the skills.
2 more slots could change that in my opinion.

And I guess my wishes are not OP but could help magSorc to catch up.
As I said in my first post - this is my view from the middle and not from the top - so maybe I'm wrong.

StaticWave

Bushido2513 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Removing the cast time on Cfrag and reducing the dmg would make the ability weaker, fyi. Also, we already have something like that and it’s called Cwep.

So I'm not sure that's true because wouldn't that be depending on

StaticWave wrote: »

Zabagad wrote: »

MetallicMonk wrote: »

My entire opinion on this is just that I don't want sorcerer to be overbuffed and especially in the wrong areas and become what nightblade is to me now, boring. I was half serious and half joking when I made the thread but the true part is I don't really agree with the popular mindset we shouldn't be nerfing classes we should be buffing the underperforming ones, I absolutely think some classes like nightblade and dragonknight need nerfs. I don't want everybody on a homogenized roided up version of their class that completely ignores any of the classes intended weaknesses and playstyle.

I definitely think sorc could use some quality of life changes and some small buffs, shield cost reduction, something to beef up the defense a bit, access to one more buff or debuff in our class kit to have one more free slot on the bar, something along those lines would be great though I'm not really big on the burst heal idea.

It's just my opinion and I know people of varying experience want to play sorc but I just appreciate that it's one of the classes that feels a lot better with time put into it and always has been since I've played. Also I think people who are trying to enjoy it in more casual lower level aspects shouldn't have high standards necessarily too, I see a lot of lightning heavy attack builds lately from sorcerer in PvP and PvE and they seem to perform well enough for someone who isn't willing or able to make it work in more demanding situations.

So yeah buff sorc just don't go insane with it.

This sounds much better then your inital post and the headline

As an average (maybe slightly below avg?) mag sorc player I suffer since hybrid update.
I would be totally happy with 2 small changes:
1) Give us major prophecy (and savagery) in our passives or on curse or whatever (but not on pets pls)
2) Remove the cast time on frag (if that would be OP? --> reduce the damage to "standard" but keep current proc damage as it is) so that we can finally use it as our class internal spammable.

With these two changes we get 2 barslots free (magelight and CS) and this would give us many options to build for/with.

My 3rd wish

would be that our internal shields could crit. (or we get a flat increase with the crit chance * crit dmg formula - eg 40% chance with 50% critdmg equals 20% bigger) I personly think that it would be fair compared to heals, but because this already was discussed back and forth and so its not my main point here

Removing the cast time on Cfrag and reducing the dmg would make the ability weaker, fyi. Also, we already have something like that and it’s called Cwep.

I don't think it would the way he described it because he still wanted to keep the proc and have it have no cast time. I understand you're starting at reduced damage but depending on damage reduction if you compare it with rng for the extra damage from frags it could be made to be mathematically similar while making the skill feel a bit different.

Also I would point out this opens up some choices on your front bar weapon being that using cwep requires that you light attack within range of the weapon you're wielding.

I'm not saying I'd vote for this without seeing it in action but pointing out that it can be done and still be close to the same damage overall.

If he still wanted to keep the proc but remove the cast time, then it would be too strong still. Even if the hard cast damage is reduced to a similar level of other spammables, the fact that it can deal 66% more damage when procced makes it too powerful of a spammable. For example, let's look at Cwep vs Cfrag in the same build, with Crushing Wep as control variable:







As you can see, Cfrag's base tooltip is only 1.6k higher than Cwep, and only 1.3k higher than Crushing Wep. If you remove the cast time and reduce the damage of Cfrag to Cwep/Crushing Wep level, then it's still going to be TOO STRONG because of the 33% chance to deal 66% extra damage at 50% reduced cost. A 11k tooltip will now become an 18k tooltip, equivalent to the tooltip of Dawnbreaker:



Cfrag would instantly become the best spammable in the game, outclassing Concealed Weapon and Molten Whip. I don't think it's a good idea at all.

StaticWave

Zabagad wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

because I think it would open up another gameplay option for sorc and technically would add a bit of healing that sorc needs anyway, not that it would totally fill that void of course.

You got me

Bushido2513 wrote: »

I don't think it would the way he described it because he still wanted to keep the proc and have it have no cast time. I understand you're starting at reduced damage but depending on damage reduction if you compare it with rng for the extra damage from frags it could be made to be mathematically similar while making the skill feel a bit different.

Also I would point out this opens up some choices on your front bar weapon being that using cwep requires that you light attack within range of the weapon you're wielding.

I'm not saying I'd vote for this without seeing it in action but pointing out that it can be done and still be close to the same damage overall.

Exactely

To make it maybe clear with numbers - lets say frag is doing right now 6K base dmg and 10K for the procced frag. (+66%)
Then I say - IF(!) the spreadsheet guy (or many others like static) think that cast time remove is OP (if not im happy, but I'm not good enough on the highest level to judge) - so IF it would be necessary to reduce dmg to the "standard" then reduce the base dmg to 5K and give 100% extra dmg (instead of 66%) so that the procced frag still hits with 10K.
Crystal weapon should be untouched at all - don't worry @static

I guess almost nobody (some niche player are always there) would be weaker with the 6K->5K reduce of the actually hard cast base frag. But everybody had then the chance to deside if they still want to use CS/eleWpn as their spammable until frag procs or if they use the chance to fill that slot with something different.
You can still slot frag and only use the proc like before.
But it would be an option to get more build variations (especially with my other wish and another free spot)
Right now there is not much build variation of mag(!) Sorcs - not in the sets and not in the skills.
2 more slots could change that in my opinion.

And I guess my wishes are not OP but could help magSorc to catch up.
As I said in my first post - this is my view from the middle and not from the top - so maybe I'm wrong.

Your suggestion will make the ability the best spammable in the game and will get it nerfed. Let's use your example, we have 6k -> 5k = 16.7% decrease in base damage. I'm going to use the tooltip value of my build for reference. Currently, Cfrag's tooltip for my build is 12628 as seen below:



With a 66% extra damage when procced, the tooltip will be 20962 damage.

With a 16.7% decrease in damage, the new tooltip will be 10519 damage, but since the extra damage when procced has increased to 100%, the procced tooltip will now be 21038 damage.

Not only would your suggested Cfrag rework deal more damage than its original version, but it would also instantly become the best spammable in the game. No current instant cast spammable can have a 33% chance to deal 100% more damage equivalent to an ULTIMATE. Oh, here's Assassin's Will's tooltip in the same build:



and Concealed Weapon:




Assassin's Will's tooltip is only 1.8k higher than your suggested Cfrag rework, but it requires 5 light attacks to build up whereas Cfrag would be a spammable. Concealed Weapon, the best spammable in the game atm, would look like a low tier spammable compared to your suggested Cfrag rework.


Tl,dr: Don't change anything.

Turtle_Bot

StaticWave wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Removing the cast time on Cfrag and reducing the dmg would make the ability weaker, fyi. Also, we already have something like that and it’s called Cwep.

So I'm not sure that's true because wouldn't that be depending on

StaticWave wrote: »

Zabagad wrote: »

MetallicMonk wrote: »

My entire opinion on this is just that I don't want sorcerer to be overbuffed and especially in the wrong areas and become what nightblade is to me now, boring. I was half serious and half joking when I made the thread but the true part is I don't really agree with the popular mindset we shouldn't be nerfing classes we should be buffing the underperforming ones, I absolutely think some classes like nightblade and dragonknight need nerfs. I don't want everybody on a homogenized roided up version of their class that completely ignores any of the classes intended weaknesses and playstyle.

I definitely think sorc could use some quality of life changes and some small buffs, shield cost reduction, something to beef up the defense a bit, access to one more buff or debuff in our class kit to have one more free slot on the bar, something along those lines would be great though I'm not really big on the burst heal idea.

It's just my opinion and I know people of varying experience want to play sorc but I just appreciate that it's one of the classes that feels a lot better with time put into it and always has been since I've played. Also I think people who are trying to enjoy it in more casual lower level aspects shouldn't have high standards necessarily too, I see a lot of lightning heavy attack builds lately from sorcerer in PvP and PvE and they seem to perform well enough for someone who isn't willing or able to make it work in more demanding situations.

So yeah buff sorc just don't go insane with it.

This sounds much better then your inital post and the headline

As an average (maybe slightly below avg?) mag sorc player I suffer since hybrid update.
I would be totally happy with 2 small changes:
1) Give us major prophecy (and savagery) in our passives or on curse or whatever (but not on pets pls)
2) Remove the cast time on frag (if that would be OP? --> reduce the damage to "standard" but keep current proc damage as it is) so that we can finally use it as our class internal spammable.

With these two changes we get 2 barslots free (magelight and CS) and this would give us many options to build for/with.

My 3rd wish

would be that our internal shields could crit. (or we get a flat increase with the crit chance * crit dmg formula - eg 40% chance with 50% critdmg equals 20% bigger) I personly think that it would be fair compared to heals, but because this already was discussed back and forth and so its not my main point here

Removing the cast time on Cfrag and reducing the dmg would make the ability weaker, fyi. Also, we already have something like that and it’s called Cwep.

I don't think it would the way he described it because he still wanted to keep the proc and have it have no cast time. I understand you're starting at reduced damage but depending on damage reduction if you compare it with rng for the extra damage from frags it could be made to be mathematically similar while making the skill feel a bit different.

Also I would point out this opens up some choices on your front bar weapon being that using cwep requires that you light attack within range of the weapon you're wielding.

I'm not saying I'd vote for this without seeing it in action but pointing out that it can be done and still be close to the same damage overall.

If he still wanted to keep the proc but remove the cast time, then it would be too strong still. Even if the hard cast damage is reduced to a similar level of other spammables, the fact that it can deal 66% more damage when procced makes it too powerful of a spammable. For example, let's look at Cwep vs Cfrag in the same build, with Crushing Wep as control variable:







As you can see, Cfrag's base tooltip is only 1.6k higher than Cwep, and only 1.3k higher than Crushing Wep. If you remove the cast time and reduce the damage of Cfrag to Cwep/Crushing Wep level, then it's still going to be TOO STRONG because of the 33% chance to deal 66% extra damage at 50% reduced cost. A 11k tooltip will now become an 18k tooltip, equivalent to the tooltip of Dawnbreaker:



Cfrag would instantly become the best spammable in the game, outclassing Concealed Weapon and Molten Whip. I don't think it's a good idea at all.

If the cast time was removed on the hard cast (and this is hypothetically speaking here), the bonus damage from the proc would have to be reduced to be roughly a 33% increased damage done. Your numbers would make that around a 14-15k tooltip frags proc which is about right since that hits for roughly 8k (crits for 13ish on average).

As for "ultimate level of damage" procs, here's a whip tooltip for a standard, generic, mara's balm + plaguebreak DK with 3 stacks and sea serpents proc'd with major + minor brutality. DW front bar, frost staff back bar. Continuous is active.




Missing passive bonuses not added to this tooltip that would make it go much higher:
vampire strike from shadows (300 weapon/spell damage)
engulfing flames (6% increased flame damage taken)
corrosive (100% pen)
no monster set (no balorghs/zoals)
no damage glyph back bar
I've used maces (sharpened + charged) to simulate wanting some pen while corrosive is down, switching to swords would buff this tooltip much higher.

In fact, lets add those in, as shown below.



Here's the tooltip with all of the above added in (including 500 balorgh), a 24k whip proc, that, thanks to corrosive, ignores enemy mitigation.

Don't get me wrong here, frags hitting for 20k procs would be OP, but when DK is currently able to run around hitting potentially 24k+ non crit whips, on a generic build that's very tanky to boot, that also ignores mitigation, that's definitely not being outshined by the stronger frags, equally OP yes (with advantages and disadvantages to both skills), but not outshined.

P.s. that 24k tooltip also ignores the +13% increased flame damage taken by vampires and other outside factors that would be provided by group buffs/debuffs such as major/minor vulnerability, minor courage, minor berserk, running a full damage build instead of maras, etc. that can easily push the tooltip over 30k.

Like I said, 20k+ frags procs would definitely be very strong, bordering OP if it had no cast time on the hard cast, hence why the bonus proc damage would have to be halved to 33% increased damage instead of 66%, but its not like similarly OP/potentially stronger things don't exist already.

Zabagad

I don't even know why you made all this tooltip thing?
It was just an example to show the end result - I didn't say 16,7% - If it is needed to make 6K->4,84236K I'm fine with that.
As I said multiple times - The result should be the same (20962 from your example) at the end.

Not sure about your argument "best spammable" - For me it sounds like a philosophical argument?
If I use CS now to proc frag it's exactly the same as it would be then.
CS has a 33% chance to proc the bigger dmg - then it would be frag has a 33% chance to proc this bigger dmg. (which would be still 20962 from your example)
Only difference would be the barspace and ofc I don't get the benefits from CS like the stun.

At the end most ppl agree, that magSorc could need some buffs - but every suggestion is to much and end like this

StaticWave wrote: »

Tl,dr: Don't change anything.

Zabagad

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Like I said, 20k+ frags procs would definitely be very strong, bordering OP if it had no cast time on the hard cast, hence why the bonus proc damage would have to be halved to 33% increased damage instead of 66%, but its not like similarly OP/potentially stronger things don't exist already.

An Increase of 33% instead of 66% is nothing I suggested!
I dont like that you both discuss numbers like 20K.
In my suggestion it is the same value on every build like today. If it would be 20K then - it is already 20K today.
If it is 12K today - it remains 12K then.
So I don't see any sence in this tooltip comparison.

I was thinking that I don't ask for things which are to OP (only get barspace) but it looks like I was wrong, because nobody likes my suggestion - and thats even without ppl like sergey

StaticWave

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Removing the cast time on Cfrag and reducing the dmg would make the ability weaker, fyi. Also, we already have something like that and it’s called Cwep.

So I'm not sure that's true because wouldn't that be depending on

StaticWave wrote: »

Zabagad wrote: »

MetallicMonk wrote: »

My entire opinion on this is just that I don't want sorcerer to be overbuffed and especially in the wrong areas and become what nightblade is to me now, boring. I was half serious and half joking when I made the thread but the true part is I don't really agree with the popular mindset we shouldn't be nerfing classes we should be buffing the underperforming ones, I absolutely think some classes like nightblade and dragonknight need nerfs. I don't want everybody on a homogenized roided up version of their class that completely ignores any of the classes intended weaknesses and playstyle.

I definitely think sorc could use some quality of life changes and some small buffs, shield cost reduction, something to beef up the defense a bit, access to one more buff or debuff in our class kit to have one more free slot on the bar, something along those lines would be great though I'm not really big on the burst heal idea.

It's just my opinion and I know people of varying experience want to play sorc but I just appreciate that it's one of the classes that feels a lot better with time put into it and always has been since I've played. Also I think people who are trying to enjoy it in more casual lower level aspects shouldn't have high standards necessarily too, I see a lot of lightning heavy attack builds lately from sorcerer in PvP and PvE and they seem to perform well enough for someone who isn't willing or able to make it work in more demanding situations.

So yeah buff sorc just don't go insane with it.

This sounds much better then your inital post and the headline

As an average (maybe slightly below avg?) mag sorc player I suffer since hybrid update.
I would be totally happy with 2 small changes:
1) Give us major prophecy (and savagery) in our passives or on curse or whatever (but not on pets pls)
2) Remove the cast time on frag (if that would be OP? --> reduce the damage to "standard" but keep current proc damage as it is) so that we can finally use it as our class internal spammable.

With these two changes we get 2 barslots free (magelight and CS) and this would give us many options to build for/with.

My 3rd wish

would be that our internal shields could crit. (or we get a flat increase with the crit chance * crit dmg formula - eg 40% chance with 50% critdmg equals 20% bigger) I personly think that it would be fair compared to heals, but because this already was discussed back and forth and so its not my main point here

Removing the cast time on Cfrag and reducing the dmg would make the ability weaker, fyi. Also, we already have something like that and it’s called Cwep.

I don't think it would the way he described it because he still wanted to keep the proc and have it have no cast time. I understand you're starting at reduced damage but depending on damage reduction if you compare it with rng for the extra damage from frags it could be made to be mathematically similar while making the skill feel a bit different.

Also I would point out this opens up some choices on your front bar weapon being that using cwep requires that you light attack within range of the weapon you're wielding.

I'm not saying I'd vote for this without seeing it in action but pointing out that it can be done and still be close to the same damage overall.

If he still wanted to keep the proc but remove the cast time, then it would be too strong still. Even if the hard cast damage is reduced to a similar level of other spammables, the fact that it can deal 66% more damage when procced makes it too powerful of a spammable. For example, let's look at Cwep vs Cfrag in the same build, with Crushing Wep as control variable:







As you can see, Cfrag's base tooltip is only 1.6k higher than Cwep, and only 1.3k higher than Crushing Wep. If you remove the cast time and reduce the damage of Cfrag to Cwep/Crushing Wep level, then it's still going to be TOO STRONG because of the 33% chance to deal 66% extra damage at 50% reduced cost. A 11k tooltip will now become an 18k tooltip, equivalent to the tooltip of Dawnbreaker:



Cfrag would instantly become the best spammable in the game, outclassing Concealed Weapon and Molten Whip. I don't think it's a good idea at all.

If the cast time was removed on the hard cast (and this is hypothetically speaking here), the bonus damage from the proc would have to be reduced to be roughly a 33% increased damage done. Your numbers would make that around a 14-15k tooltip frags proc which is about right since that hits for roughly 8k (crits for 13ish on average).

As for "ultimate level of damage" procs, here's a whip tooltip for a standard, generic, mara's balm + plaguebreak DK with 3 stacks and sea serpents proc'd with major + minor brutality. DW front bar, frost staff back bar. Continuous is active.




Missing passive bonuses not added to this tooltip that would make it go much higher:
vampire strike from shadows (300 weapon/spell damage)
engulfing flames (6% increased flame damage taken)
corrosive (100% pen)
no monster set (no balorghs/zoals)
no damage glyph back bar
I've used maces (sharpened + charged) to simulate wanting some pen while corrosive is down, switching to swords would buff this tooltip much higher.

In fact, lets add those in, as shown below.



Here's the tooltip with all of the above added in (including 500 balorgh), a 24k whip proc, that, thanks to corrosive, ignores enemy mitigation.

Don't get me wrong here, frags hitting for 20k procs would be OP, but when DK is currently able to run around hitting potentially 24k+ non crit whips, on a generic build that's very tanky to boot, that also ignores mitigation, that's definitely not being outshined by the stronger frags, equally OP yes (with advantages and disadvantages to both skills), but not outshined.

P.s. that 24k tooltip also ignores the +13% increased flame damage taken by vampires and other outside factors that would be provided by group buffs/debuffs such as major/minor vulnerability, minor courage, minor berserk, running a full damage build instead of maras, etc. that can easily push the tooltip over 30k.

Like I said, 20k+ frags procs would definitely be very strong, bordering OP if it had no cast time on the hard cast, hence why the bonus proc damage would have to be halved to 33% increased damage instead of 66%, but its not like similarly OP/potentially stronger things don't exist already.

Your Whip tooltip is massively amped up. I'm not a vamp either, so it would most likely not deal extra damage to me. In my screenshot I only had Essence Thief + Trickery, ~38k stam, and 4.6k weapon damage. No continuous, no Sea Serpent, no balorgh or other passives. I could also amp that up like shown below:



19k base tooltip, and 31540 procced damage with Sea Serpent, 500 ult Balorgh, Essence + Trickery, Weapon dmg Enchant, all infused weapon damage jewelries, Amplitude passive, and Minor Berserk.

All of this with the advantage of being ranged and not needing to build up 3 stacks because the base ability is already hitting for 19k damage. Let's look at Curse for fun:



Or Overload:




This isn't to say DK isn't OP. Cfrag is a very good ability and can rival Molten Whip is my point. Any buff to it would push the ability over the top.

If Cfrag becomes an instant cast ability, then the extra damage needs to be significantly reduced to 15% AT BEST with a slightly higher proc chance (40-45%). It can't be both a spammable and a burst ability.

StaticWave

And FYI @Turtle_Bot, I have no issues kiting a Corrosive magDK. In fact, with those tooltips I could probably 1 shot the DK without needing overload. I'd just have to spam Spell Wall for defense lol. An amped up sorc with good defense is extremely lethal and will beat most, if not all classes.

StaticWave

Zabagad wrote: »

I don't even know why you made all this tooltip thing?
It was just an example to show the end result - I didn't say 16,7% - If it is needed to make 6K->4,84236K I'm fine with that.
As I said multiple times - The result should be the same (20962 from your example) at the end.

Not sure about your argument "best spammable" - For me it sounds like a philosophical argument?
If I use CS now to proc frag it's exactly the same as it would be then.
CS has a 33% chance to proc the bigger dmg - then it would be frag has a 33% chance to proc this bigger dmg. (which would be still 20962 from your example)
Only difference would be the barspace and ofc I don't get the benefits from CS like the stun.

At the end most ppl agree, that magSorc could need some buffs - but every suggestion is to much and end like this

StaticWave wrote: »

Tl,dr: Don't change anything.

My "best spammable" argument was for your comment about buffing the procced damage by 100% but only reducing the base tooltip by 16.7%. Going by your numbers, you might as well just say remove the cast time and keep everything else the same, because that's exactly what it looked like mathematically lol.

To better understand why I said Cfrag would become the best spammable and reach OP territory, here's a simple but equivalent hypothetical suggestion: "Let's turn NB's main spammable, Concealed Weapon, into a ranged ability, reduce its damage by 16.7%, but give it a 33% chance to deal 100% extra damage". Wouldn't you say that's ridiculous, no? Because that's exactly what Cfrag would become lol.

StaticWave

Zabagad wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Like I said, 20k+ frags procs would definitely be very strong, bordering OP if it had no cast time on the hard cast, hence why the bonus proc damage would have to be halved to 33% increased damage instead of 66%, but its not like similarly OP/potentially stronger things don't exist already.

An Increase of 33% instead of 66% is nothing I suggested!
I dont like that you both discuss numbers like 20K.
In my suggestion it is the same value on every build like today. If it would be 20K then - it is already 20K today.
If it is 12K today - it remains 12K then.
So I don't see any sence in this tooltip comparison.

I was thinking that I don't ask for things which are to OP (only get barspace) but it looks like I was wrong, because nobody likes my suggestion - and thats even without ppl like sergey

We are discussing numbers of 20k because most magsorcs only use the procced Cfrag instead of hard casting it. If you want to remove the cast time, then you also need to consider the fact that it was given a 66% increased damage because of that cast time. Removing the cast time without significantly reducing the increased damage is a serious balance oversight and will lead to the ability overperforming.

A decent Cfrag will have around ~12-13k base tooltip and 19-20k procced tooltip. If the cast time was removed, the base tooltip would obviously have to be reduced to be inline with other spammables, and the procced condition can either be removed completely and replaced with a debuff (Major/Minor Breach) to free up a bar slot, or reduced significantly to 15-20% extra damage with a slightly higher proc chance (40-45%). Anything more and you'd have a spammable with a tooltip equivalent to Dizzying Swing when procced but is instant cast and a ranged attack. Or, you could simply just slot Crystal Weapon and call it a day.

Turtle_Bot

StaticWave wrote: »

And FYI @Turtle_Bot, I have no issues kiting a Corrosive magDK. In fact, with those tooltips I could probably 1 shot the DK without needing overload. I'd just have to spam Spell Wall for defense lol. An amped up sorc with good defense is extremely lethal and will beat most, if not all classes.

Those tooltips I showed were on a standard 30k health maras balm hybrid dk. Definitely not squishy by any stretch or even close to being 1 shot.

Like I said, I could have easily amped it up much further, slotting double damage sets, etc, and easily got it over 30k (against non vamps, 34k against vamps) on the proc'd whip, alongside 17k FoO ticks, 12k fossilize, 41k leap, 16k initial engulfing flames hit + 40k DoT, 16k talons + 17k DoT + 25k synergy, etc.

Bushido2513

StaticWave wrote: »

Zabagad wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Like I said, 20k+ frags procs would definitely be very strong, bordering OP if it had no cast time on the hard cast, hence why the bonus proc damage would have to be halved to 33% increased damage instead of 66%, but its not like similarly OP/potentially stronger things don't exist already.

An Increase of 33% instead of 66% is nothing I suggested!
I dont like that you both discuss numbers like 20K.
In my suggestion it is the same value on every build like today. If it would be 20K then - it is already 20K today.
If it is 12K today - it remains 12K then.
So I don't see any sence in this tooltip comparison.

I was thinking that I don't ask for things which are to OP (only get barspace) but it looks like I was wrong, because nobody likes my suggestion - and thats even without ppl like sergey

We are discussing numbers of 20k because most magsorcs only use the procced Cfrag instead of hard casting it. If you want to remove the cast time, then you also need to consider the fact that it was given a 66% increased damage because of that cast time. Removing the cast time without significantly reducing the increased damage is a serious balance oversight and will lead to the ability overperforming.

A decent Cfrag will have around ~12-13k base tooltip and 19-20k procced tooltip. If the cast time was removed, the base tooltip would obviously have to be reduced to be inline with other spammables, and the procced condition can either be removed completely and replaced with a debuff (Major/Minor Breach) to free up a bar slot, or reduced significantly to 15-20% extra damage with a slightly higher proc chance (40-45%). Anything more and you'd have a spammable with a tooltip equivalent to Dizzying Swing when procced but is instant cast and a ranged attack. Or, you could simply just slot Crystal Weapon and call it a day.

I'm so glad you finally came to this scenario because it's more in line with that I was actually thinking in the beginning and all of the other math you suggested was way off from my thoughts.

I was simply saying it might be interesting to make it an instant cast that when factoring in proc bonus would do increased damage but nothing out of line with current spammables with burst damage mechanics. But I was never suggesting it be left as is even remotely and then just turned into an instant cast, that's obviously too much damage.

Again, what was even the point? To possibly give sorc a spammable with an interesting burst mechanic that didn't depend on light attacks landing or using a certain weapon and that also gave them a small heal while attacking.

By the way obviously that heal might need to be looked at to make sure it was in line with similar mechanics.


Overall I can honestly say I couldn't even tell you if this would be that good or not as far as being an improvement to sorc, just brainstorming a bit really.

But let's not act like it's an idea that can't be properly mathematically tuned to be within acceptable damage windows. The only question was really more would people like it over current options and such.

Zabagad

StaticWave wrote: »

Zabagad wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Like I said, 20k+ frags procs would definitely be very strong, bordering OP if it had no cast time on the hard cast, hence why the bonus proc damage would have to be halved to 33% increased damage instead of 66%, but its not like similarly OP/potentially stronger things don't exist already.

An Increase of 33% instead of 66% is nothing I suggested!
I dont like that you both discuss numbers like 20K.
In my suggestion it is the same value on every build like today. If it would be 20K then - it is already 20K today.
If it is 12K today - it remains 12K then.
So I don't see any sence in this tooltip comparison.

I was thinking that I don't ask for things which are to OP (only get barspace) but it looks like I was wrong, because nobody likes my suggestion - and thats even without ppl like sergey

We are discussing numbers of 20k because most magsorcs only use the procced Cfrag instead of hard casting it. If you want to remove the cast time, then you also need to consider the fact that it was given a 66% increased damage because of that cast time. Removing the cast time without significantly reducing the increased damage is a serious balance oversight and will lead to the ability overperforming.

A decent Cfrag will have around ~12-13k base tooltip and 19-20k procced tooltip. If the cast time was removed, the base tooltip would obviously have to be reduced to be inline with other spammables, and the procced condition can either be removed completely and replaced with a debuff (Major/Minor Breach) to free up a bar slot, or reduced significantly to 15-20% extra damage with a slightly higher proc chance (40-45%). Anything more and you'd have a spammable with a tooltip equivalent to Dizzying Swing when procced but is instant cast and a ranged attack. Or, you could simply just slot Crystal Weapon and call it a day.

You still don't understand my point
I'm not a native speaker, but is it realy so difficult to understand my point?
All your tooltips are missleading, because I don't want to change anything damage-wise.

I try it one last time.
"A decent Cfrag will have around ~12-13k base tooltip and 19-20k procced tooltip. "
What is the base tooltip of CS in your example? Lets say 10k to make it simple?

So what I want - make the future:
"A decent Cfrag will have around ~10k base tooltip and 19-20k procced tooltip. "

You are right with:
"because most magsorcs only use the procced Cfrag instead of hard casting it."
and that's exactly why I thought it could help to make it more useful.

Today I spam CS until frag procs and then I use frag. (scenario to keep it simple)
Example - I spam 3 times CS (3*10K) + one frag with 20K = 50K
My suggested change would spam 3 times base frag (3*10K) + one frag with 20K = 50K
So damage would be 100% the same. Proc chance is 100% the same. Instand cast is the same. (in reality we have a travel time now) If I proc frag with shield, streak or curse --> all the same.
Only difference - I dont have to slot CS (with the cons of losing stun etc.) to spam 10K and to proc frag.


"Anything more and you'd have a spammable with a tooltip equivalent to Dizzying Swing when procced but is instant cast and a ranged attack. "
No, it's the same tooltip as CS, but it cannot stun and cannot proc status effects.

So again - all tooltips are useless. I understand that the skill itself sounds maybe overloaded for you and others - but at the end it would be only a free barspace (with the small cons) like with my other suggestion (major savagery and free magelight-slot).
Sure it would be a benefit - otherwise it wouldn't make any sence to ask for
But I realy thought after 500 discussions to buff this by X or make this bigger by Y (where all your tooltips make sence)
I bring up something different then just buff this or that.

Keep damage and shieldsize etc. the same, but give us more barspace.

StaticWave

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

And FYI @Turtle_Bot, I have no issues kiting a Corrosive magDK. In fact, with those tooltips I could probably 1 shot the DK without needing overload. I'd just have to spam Spell Wall for defense lol. An amped up sorc with good defense is extremely lethal and will beat most, if not all classes.

Those tooltips I showed were on a standard 30k health maras balm hybrid dk. Definitely not squishy by any stretch or even close to being 1 shot.

Like I said, I could have easily amped it up much further, slotting double damage sets, etc, and easily got it over 30k (against non vamps, 34k against vamps) on the proc'd whip, alongside 17k FoO ticks, 12k fossilize, 41k leap, 16k initial engulfing flames hit + 40k DoT, 16k talons + 17k DoT + 25k synergy, etc.

Yes I understand that, but I could also drop Trickery for Mara’s Balm on the hybrid sorc.

We could go on and on about the tooltip but at the end of the day, Cfrag by itself, imo, is on par with Whip in terms of burst potential. DK just looks broken because it has 5+ DoTs and FoO to back up the burst and a crazy burst heal. Sorc only has Curse to back up the damage, but not 5+ DoTs and a crazy burst heal. I think we can both agree on that aspect of class difference.

StaticWave

Bushido2513 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Zabagad wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Like I said, 20k+ frags procs would definitely be very strong, bordering OP if it had no cast time on the hard cast, hence why the bonus proc damage would have to be halved to 33% increased damage instead of 66%, but its not like similarly OP/potentially stronger things don't exist already.

An Increase of 33% instead of 66% is nothing I suggested!
I dont like that you both discuss numbers like 20K.
In my suggestion it is the same value on every build like today. If it would be 20K then - it is already 20K today.
If it is 12K today - it remains 12K then.
So I don't see any sence in this tooltip comparison.

I was thinking that I don't ask for things which are to OP (only get barspace) but it looks like I was wrong, because nobody likes my suggestion - and thats even without ppl like sergey

We are discussing numbers of 20k because most magsorcs only use the procced Cfrag instead of hard casting it. If you want to remove the cast time, then you also need to consider the fact that it was given a 66% increased damage because of that cast time. Removing the cast time without significantly reducing the increased damage is a serious balance oversight and will lead to the ability overperforming.

A decent Cfrag will have around ~12-13k base tooltip and 19-20k procced tooltip. If the cast time was removed, the base tooltip would obviously have to be reduced to be inline with other spammables, and the procced condition can either be removed completely and replaced with a debuff (Major/Minor Breach) to free up a bar slot, or reduced significantly to 15-20% extra damage with a slightly higher proc chance (40-45%). Anything more and you'd have a spammable with a tooltip equivalent to Dizzying Swing when procced but is instant cast and a ranged attack. Or, you could simply just slot Crystal Weapon and call it a day.

I'm so glad you finally came to this scenario because it's more in line with that I was actually thinking in the beginning and all of the other math you suggested was way off from my thoughts.

I was simply saying it might be interesting to make it an instant cast that when factoring in proc bonus would do increased damage but nothing out of line with current spammables with burst damage mechanics. But I was never suggesting it be left as is even remotely and then just turned into an instant cast, that's obviously too much damage.

Again, what was even the point? To possibly give sorc a spammable with an interesting burst mechanic that didn't depend on light attacks landing or using a certain weapon and that also gave them a small heal while attacking.

By the way obviously that heal might need to be looked at to make sure it was in line with similar mechanics.


Overall I can honestly say I couldn't even tell you if this would be that good or not as far as being an improvement to sorc, just brainstorming a bit really.

But let's not act like it's an idea that can't be properly mathematically tuned to be within acceptable damage windows. The only question was really more would people like it over current options and such.

If the numbers are adjusted, sure. I just didn’t agree with the numbers that he suggested.

But then again, I don’t think people are willing to give up a burst ability like Cfrag just so that they could have a spammable when Crushing Shock or Elewep exists.

Zabagad

StaticWave wrote: »

If the numbers are adjusted, sure. I just didn’t agree with the numbers that he suggested.

He never suggested any numbers lol

I tried to make examples that ppl understand what I want, but I guess I still wasn't successful at all.

The 6k-10K to 5K-10K example was my first try to show that 10K will remain 10K - after I tried it in my first post with words:
"reduce the (*1) damage to "standard" but keep current proc damage as it is" (*1) maybe I missed a "base" here.
Then you started the tooltip war and took the 5k and 6K for your calculations - that why I said I'm ok with 4,84236K instead of 5K or whatever we need to get to the "standard".
But you were still on your mathematically 16,7% story and posted a lot of comparisons to end with a "lol".

Bushido2513

StaticWave wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Zabagad wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Like I said, 20k+ frags procs would definitely be very strong, bordering OP if it had no cast time on the hard cast, hence why the bonus proc damage would have to be halved to 33% increased damage instead of 66%, but its not like similarly OP/potentially stronger things don't exist already.

An Increase of 33% instead of 66% is nothing I suggested!
I dont like that you both discuss numbers like 20K.
In my suggestion it is the same value on every build like today. If it would be 20K then - it is already 20K today.
If it is 12K today - it remains 12K then.
So I don't see any sence in this tooltip comparison.

I was thinking that I don't ask for things which are to OP (only get barspace) but it looks like I was wrong, because nobody likes my suggestion - and thats even without ppl like sergey

We are discussing numbers of 20k because most magsorcs only use the procced Cfrag instead of hard casting it. If you want to remove the cast time, then you also need to consider the fact that it was given a 66% increased damage because of that cast time. Removing the cast time without significantly reducing the increased damage is a serious balance oversight and will lead to the ability overperforming.

A decent Cfrag will have around ~12-13k base tooltip and 19-20k procced tooltip. If the cast time was removed, the base tooltip would obviously have to be reduced to be inline with other spammables, and the procced condition can either be removed completely and replaced with a debuff (Major/Minor Breach) to free up a bar slot, or reduced significantly to 15-20% extra damage with a slightly higher proc chance (40-45%). Anything more and you'd have a spammable with a tooltip equivalent to Dizzying Swing when procced but is instant cast and a ranged attack. Or, you could simply just slot Crystal Weapon and call it a day.

I'm so glad you finally came to this scenario because it's more in line with that I was actually thinking in the beginning and all of the other math you suggested was way off from my thoughts.

I was simply saying it might be interesting to make it an instant cast that when factoring in proc bonus would do increased damage but nothing out of line with current spammables with burst damage mechanics. But I was never suggesting it be left as is even remotely and then just turned into an instant cast, that's obviously too much damage.

Again, what was even the point? To possibly give sorc a spammable with an interesting burst mechanic that didn't depend on light attacks landing or using a certain weapon and that also gave them a small heal while attacking.

By the way obviously that heal might need to be looked at to make sure it was in line with similar mechanics.


Overall I can honestly say I couldn't even tell you if this would be that good or not as far as being an improvement to sorc, just brainstorming a bit really.

But let's not act like it's an idea that can't be properly mathematically tuned to be within acceptable damage windows. The only question was really more would people like it over current options and such.

If the numbers are adjusted, sure. I just didn’t agree with the numbers that he suggested.

But then again, I don’t think people are willing to give up a burst ability like Cfrag just so that they could have a spammable when Crushing Shock or Elewep exists.

Well you could potentially keep the burst and just change the proc chance to be adequately lower.

And yes you could slot ele weapon but some of the point of this idea was to put sorc closer to class skills and passives while possibly giving back bar space and removing the light attack range requirement based on weapon type or just in general when you include the lag of pvp and how it affects light attacks.

Same on the light attack range situation with cwep though I admit that's mostly all you'd get back other than being able to use different weapon line buffs which does technically open up a little more diversity.

Sergykid

u r comparing a ranged ability with a melee one, while one has on demand damage while the other has conditions to hit the same. Also class kits add even more variables to an ability.

there's too much attention brought to points that don't need that much attention. A problem needs to be properly pinpointed with invariable data, or the main point risks being lost in clutter

Bushido2513

Sergykid wrote: »

u r comparing a ranged ability with a melee one, while one has on demand damage while the other has conditions to hit the same. Also class kits add even more variables to an ability.

there's too much attention brought to points that don't need that much attention. A problem needs to be properly pinpointed with invariable data, or the main point risks being lost in clutter

Not exactly, it's only melee or ranged dependent on the weapon.

We all know that there are many many many wide ranging variables that need to be taken into account. The pts is to some degree even used to test ideas that devs who have all the data available to them, still can't fully predict.

Point is that any idea no matter how well pinpointed with any amount of data would still need to be tested. So we propose ideas and ZOS does what they will or won't but there is no way to be certain about the viability before testing one way or the other.

As current evidence I point you to the heavy attack oakensoul thread. ZOS started with a shot in the dark, nerfed it a bit and now players still can't agree if it's op or not.

Is ZOS right even though they have all the data you say needs to be considered or do they just take shots in the dark and course correct as they go?

I'd argue this game direction is already lost in the clutter so why not just put our thoughts out there and see which one ZOS lands a dart on next update.

StaticWave

Zabagad wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Zabagad wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Like I said, 20k+ frags procs would definitely be very strong, bordering OP if it had no cast time on the hard cast, hence why the bonus proc damage would have to be halved to 33% increased damage instead of 66%, but its not like similarly OP/potentially stronger things don't exist already.

An Increase of 33% instead of 66% is nothing I suggested!
I dont like that you both discuss numbers like 20K.
In my suggestion it is the same value on every build like today. If it would be 20K then - it is already 20K today.
If it is 12K today - it remains 12K then.
So I don't see any sence in this tooltip comparison.

I was thinking that I don't ask for things which are to OP (only get barspace) but it looks like I was wrong, because nobody likes my suggestion - and thats even without ppl like sergey

We are discussing numbers of 20k because most magsorcs only use the procced Cfrag instead of hard casting it. If you want to remove the cast time, then you also need to consider the fact that it was given a 66% increased damage because of that cast time. Removing the cast time without significantly reducing the increased damage is a serious balance oversight and will lead to the ability overperforming.

A decent Cfrag will have around ~12-13k base tooltip and 19-20k procced tooltip. If the cast time was removed, the base tooltip would obviously have to be reduced to be inline with other spammables, and the procced condition can either be removed completely and replaced with a debuff (Major/Minor Breach) to free up a bar slot, or reduced significantly to 15-20% extra damage with a slightly higher proc chance (40-45%). Anything more and you'd have a spammable with a tooltip equivalent to Dizzying Swing when procced but is instant cast and a ranged attack. Or, you could simply just slot Crystal Weapon and call it a day.

You still don't understand my point
I'm not a native speaker, but is it realy so difficult to understand my point?
All your tooltips are missleading, because I don't want to change anything damage-wise.

I try it one last time.
"A decent Cfrag will have around ~12-13k base tooltip and 19-20k procced tooltip. "
What is the base tooltip of CS in your example? Lets say 10k to make it simple?

So what I want - make the future:
"A decent Cfrag will have around ~10k base tooltip and 19-20k procced tooltip. "

You are right with:
"because most magsorcs only use the procced Cfrag instead of hard casting it."
and that's exactly why I thought it could help to make it more useful.

Today I spam CS until frag procs and then I use frag. (scenario to keep it simple)
Example - I spam 3 times CS (3*10K) + one frag with 20K = 50K
My suggested change would spam 3 times base frag (3*10K) + one frag with 20K = 50K
So damage would be 100% the same. Proc chance is 100% the same. Instand cast is the same. (in reality we have a travel time now) If I proc frag with shield, streak or curse --> all the same.
Only difference - I dont have to slot CS (with the cons of losing stun etc.) to spam 10K and to proc frag.


"Anything more and you'd have a spammable with a tooltip equivalent to Dizzying Swing when procced but is instant cast and a ranged attack. "
No, it's the same tooltip as CS, but it cannot stun and cannot proc status effects.

So again - all tooltips are useless. I understand that the skill itself sounds maybe overloaded for you and others - but at the end it would be only a free barspace (with the small cons) like with my other suggestion (major savagery and free magelight-slot).
Sure it would be a benefit - otherwise it wouldn't make any sence to ask for
But I realy thought after 500 discussions to buff this by X or make this bigger by Y (where all your tooltips make sence)
I bring up something different then just buff this or that.

Keep damage and shieldsize etc. the same, but give us more barspace.

Sigh…

Idk how many times I have to repeat this sentence, but I’ll do it again..

An instant cast Cfrag with the same procced damage as a Cfrag with cast time is BROKEN

Instant cast spammables are ALWAYS better than channeled spammables. Why do you think Snipe and Dizzying Swing is so bad despite having a slightly higher tooltip? Because they have cast times. Cast times are so bad at the top end PvP that nobody runs them but long time dedicated users.

It doesn’t matter if you lower the base damage. As long as you keep the procced damage value the same, it’s going to be OP.

I specifically used the Concealed Weapon example just so you can understand how detrimental your suggestion would be to the class.

What do you think would happen if I ask for Concealed Weapon to have a 33% chance of dealing 100% extra damage? It is a ridiculous buff suggestion.

StaticWave

And before anybody says it’s fine to change Cfrag to an instant cast ability without nerfing the procced damage, I’ll have to remind you that from the birth of this game until now, there has not been a single instant cast spammable that can deal 66-100% extra damage.

Like Idk why I have to explain to everyone how absurdly broken this sounds. It doesn’t matter how low the proc chance is. There is no reason for any instant cast spammable to deal 66-100% extra damage.

The only spammable we have that deals extra damage after repeated casts is Venom Skull, and it only does 20% extra damage every 3rd cast. An instant cast Cfrag tooltip would have to be be similar to Venom Skull to not be OP.

Bushido2513

StaticWave wrote: »

And before anybody says it’s fine to change Cfrag to an instant cast ability without nerfing the procced damage, I’ll have to remind you that from the birth of this game until now, there has not been a single instant cast spammable that can deal 66-100% extra damage.

Like Idk why I have to explain to everyone how absurdly broken this sounds. It doesn’t matter how low the proc chance is. There is no reason for any instant cast spammable to deal 66-100% extra damage.

The only spammable we have that deals extra damage after repeated casts is Venom Skull, and it only does 20% extra damage every 3rd cast. An instant cast Cfrag tooltip would have to be be similar to Venom Skull to not be OP.

For the record I think you two are saying the same thing in that I think he's saying that he wants the damage to stay the same overall but just change how the damage is delivered.


Now here's where you have a great point. I agree that there is an issue if the proc chance is low but the damage is still high because that could lead to insane rng burst.

I actually like your venom skull mention. I know you're not saying that's an idea we should use or anything like that but I have to say I would try a no cast time frag every 3rd cast type situatoin or something like that. My point is to say that I'd be interested in a way that could make this a spamable and a proc but have controlled damage you could build into.

I'm not saying this would end up being all that cool at all but I guess what I'm saying is I think you two are really talking about the same thing. He clearly doesn't want anything op, just bar space and a no cast time frag with a proc.

Jsmalls

@StaticWave

"Your pressure is Curse every 3 seconds, Crushing Shock every 1 second, and Cfrag whenever it procs. That's pressure. You can call it invalid all you want, but I play on the same server as @MetallicMonk and have dueled him many times and that's exactly what he does when I spam roll. He just repeats the combo until I run out of stam. That's why I switched to blocking instead of rolling."

In what world is crushing shock pressure. Sure toss in curse and your damage will look like 0 damage, 3-4k, 3-4k, 10k, and you can hope for a frag between those of course. But that 3-4k between your burst is filler dps that is being mostly negated by HoTs and allows your opponent to be very offensive (forcing you to stop your burst). MagSorcs don't have Dots, so we're not negating HoTs. We depend on burst, and I'm sure the burst can feel like pressure from the other side cuz it'll drop you low for a bit, but we have extremely weak follow ups. Curse will take another minimum of 3.5 seconds and frags will take a minimum of another GCD. Which leaves a 3-4k force pulse follow up, and if you did 26k damage in you're burst then that's great but let's be real even a perfect MagSorc burst is gonna do 18k~ish. The class was designed around having it's execute finish an opponent after a large burst. The execute isn't worth slotting, and the health meta makes the "burst" highly unlikely to get them to 20% (worst execute scaling in the game) with the use of the execute in your skill line up (basically an additional turn of doing 0 damage which between curse and it, you're doing no damage for 2/4 of your gcds WHILE you're offensive). That's why @MetallicMonk isn't running it in the video you posted.

ForumBully

I would definitely be more inclined to run mages wrath if it were a DoT that could become an execute. But then I'm back to bar space

OBJnoob

I've always thought Mages Wrath was just fine. Other executes that have started scaling so low were problematic because it was too small of a window to aim at and difficult for timing reasons. But since Mages Wrath can be applied beforehand it completely circumvents the problems any of the others had.

Barspace issues may cause a lot of people not to use it but that isn't the same as the skill itself being bad. It may not be most efficient for a solo build but in group play it's quite handy and any buffs would arguably make it OP.

ForumBully

OBJnoob wrote: »

I've always thought Mages Wrath was just fine. Other executes that have started scaling so low were problematic because it was too small of a window to aim at and difficult for timing reasons. But since Mages Wrath can be applied beforehand it completely circumvents the problems any of the others had.

Barspace issues may cause a lot of people not to use it but that isn't the same as the skill itself being bad. It may not be most efficient for a solo build but in group play it's quite handy and any buffs would arguably make it OP.

Again I have to fall back to, look at DKs, NBs and to a lesser extent Wardens as they are right now before we worry too much about accidentally making Templar, Necro or Sorc "overpowered" with modest damage increases.