Overland Content Feedback Thread

valenwood_vegan

Ok that's fair! And just to add, I do hope they are working on something (OPTIONAL before anyone jumps on me, lol) for overland. Definitely looking forward to finding out what's in store for this year.

SilverBride

jbarnhill1b14_ESO wrote: »

I also don't want to force people to engage in adjusting their builds or consumables just to experience a higher level of challenge.

We already do that now.

Players don't just enter a Trial or other challenging content without getting the gear sets and adjusting their skills to be able to meet the challenge. The only difference is this gear and debuff foods would be increasing the challenge rather than just meeting it, because that is the desired effect.

disky

SilverBride wrote: »

jbarnhill1b14_ESO wrote: »

I also don't want to force people to engage in adjusting their builds or consumables just to experience a higher level of challenge.

We already do that now.

Players don't just enter a Trial or other challenging content without getting the gear sets and adjusting their skills to be able to meet the challenge. The only difference is this gear and debuff foods would be increasing the challenge rather than just meeting it, because that is the desired effect.

The difference is that people create builds to become more effective in their role/develop a style that suits their character. No one wants to create builds that do nothing but punish them, it's not fun or interesting. Challenge is fun for those who enjoy it, but we still want to engage with builds because they're a big part of what makes the game enjoyable to play and they add flavor to a character.

If you're going to create punishing gear then there has to be a benefit which makes it worthwhile, and once you've gotten to that point, you're going to have to start balancing against a whole host of builds when you could have instead utilized the global debuff code that already exists in the game for dungeons and PvP. To be honest, "cursed" gear sounds like it could be a cool idea, but not as an alternative to a proper challenge mode for overland, in my opinion.

vsrs_au

Silentverge wrote: »

If I were in charge of creating the difficulty for ESO right now this is exactly what I would do:

Make a slider in the gameplay options menu for "Overworld Difficulty" have 5 different difficulties that you could change at anytime. Exactly like skyrim. All the slider would do is give you a debuff, less damage output and more damage taken respectively for all damage (even fall damage)

Boom done. and then put it on the PTS and tweek it as needed. This could literally be done in like a week or two tops.

A week or two? Not going to happen. Updating large and complex software, even with an update small in scope, takes more time (and planning) than that, and involves more than just a few software engineers.

Silentverge

vsrs_au wrote: »

Silentverge wrote: »

If I were in charge of creating the difficulty for ESO right now this is exactly what I would do:

Make a slider in the gameplay options menu for "Overworld Difficulty" have 5 different difficulties that you could change at anytime. Exactly like skyrim. All the slider would do is give you a debuff, less damage output and more damage taken respectively for all damage (even fall damage)

Boom done. and then put it on the PTS and tweek it as needed. This could literally be done in like a week or two tops.

A week or two? Not going to happen. Updating large and complex software, even with an update small in scope, takes more time (and planning) than that, and involves more than just a few software engineers.

of course. i was simply making an example that it is not as time consuming as some people think. i know it wont happen that fast but it is a small feature that shouldnt take years or even months to make. that was my point.

SilverBride

jbarnhill1b14_ESO wrote: »

The difference is that people create builds to become more effective in their role/develop a style that suits their character. No one wants to create builds that do nothing but punish them, it's not fun or interesting. Challenge is fun for those who enjoy it, but we still want to engage with builds because they're a big part of what makes the game enjoyable to play and they add flavor to a character.

If you're going to create punishing gear then there has to be a benefit which makes it worthwhile, and once you've gotten to that point, you're going to have to start balancing against a whole host of builds when you could have instead utilized the global debuff code that already exists in the game for dungeons and PvP. To be honest, "cursed" gear sounds like it could be a cool idea, but not as an alternative to a proper challenge mode for overland, in my opinion.

It's not punishing if it is giving the player the challenge they are looking for and aren't likely to get any other way.

spartaxoxo

The reason I wouldn't want it to be gear but rather a setting is because I want to be able use my own gear. Building a character is part of the RPG experience. I'm looking for overland to offer me the action RPG experience, same as the rest of the game.

I suppose a food that enabled a hidden setting and stacked with other food would be alright. But gear doesn't work.

Silentverge

A difficulty slider just like in Skyrim is the way to go IMO. Only affecting the player. No rewards at all.

SilverBride

What about a debuff food with different levels? Similar to the ambrosia we have now for gaining experience. So the player could choose just how much difficulty they want.

spartaxoxo

SilverBride wrote: »

What about a debuff food with different levels? Similar to the ambrosia we have now for gaining experience. So the player could choose just how much difficulty they want.

I'd be cool with that as long as it stacks with the food I can already eat. So, I could eat a crown meal AND that food, for example.

Braffin

spartaxoxo wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

What about a debuff food with different levels? Similar to the ambrosia we have now for gaining experience. So the player could choose just how much difficulty they want.

I'd be cool with that as long as it stacks with the food I can already eat. So, I could eat a crown meal AND that food, for example.

Same here.

The important thing is, that I don't have to destroy my builds to use the difficulty feature. Additional food does this job as well as a slider in options.

Of course I would this food expect to be available cheaply at a vendor. I surely don't want to grind for it.

Silentverge

SilverBride wrote: »

What about a debuff food with different levels? Similar to the ambrosia we have now for gaining experience. So the player could choose just how much difficulty they want.

that would work. have the cooldown be for a long time though. at least 24hr real time.

edit: i honestly dont care how they do it as long as they do it. for me it would make this game so much better.

FlopsyPrince

A thread I made on Harrowstorms was closed because of this never-ending thread?

That was disappointing since Harrowstorms definitely need tweaking and will not get any attention in the same arguments here.

Tuning something specific to make it doable by lesser participants is a different issue, at least in general. Tuning all of overland is very different than tuning a single item in 2 zones.

valenwood_vegan

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

A thread I made on Harrowstorms was closed because of this never-ending thread?

That was disappointing since Harrowstorms definitely need tweaking and will not get any attention in the same arguments here.

Tuning something specific to make it doable by lesser participants is a different issue, at least in general. Tuning all of overland is very different than tuning a single item in 2 zones.

No one in this thread can help you with what some moderator decided to do, but maybe you could add to the discussion by saying what it was that you wanted with harrowstorms?

FlopsyPrince

valenwood_vegan wrote: »

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

A thread I made on Harrowstorms was closed because of this never-ending thread?

That was disappointing since Harrowstorms definitely need tweaking and will not get any attention in the same arguments here.

Tuning something specific to make it doable by lesser participants is a different issue, at least in general. Tuning all of overland is very different than tuning a single item in 2 zones.

No one in this thread can help you with what some moderator decided to do, but maybe you could add to the discussion by saying what it was that you wanted with harrowstorms?

I was noting that they needed some adjustments to make them doable.

I probably erred in noting that they are an example of very hard content for many of us, which got the mod thinking of here, even though it is a different point.

I want to have a chance to jump in a group of 2-3 non-top players to finish them, not waste 1/2 hour accomplishing nothing.

It would kill the game if overland because the same way. I remember getting nuked in overland about the time Summerset dropped, but that was long before I had a clue what I knew what I was doing or had even decent gear. That would be relevant here, not Harrowstorms except that they are an example that "really hard content" doesn't get as much ongoing attention. But some of that is because it is hard to solo or do with a pick up group. (Yeah, I know some of you can do them playing with only one foot, but many of us cannot come anywhere close to that.)

ZOS_Hadeostry wrote: »

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/8020639/#Comment_8020639

(I am not sure how to include the content from another thread.) Referencing it for anyone who wants to find what I wrote there. Not intending to cause problems if this is not allowed.

valenwood_vegan

Ah yeah, I used to do harrowstorms all the time - it was pretty fun group content where you didn't have to organize a group and just showed up and did them. Now when I show up at them I'm almost always alone, or maybe one other player is waiting there hoping someone will show up. I *can* solo them, but after proving to myself that I could, I realized that it's not at all fun or worth the time so I mostly stopped doing them.

They could use some scaling for sure - it's sad to see them become semi-dead content because I think when they were busy, it was one of the better iterations of "world event" that ZoS came up with.

(And then of course there was the flip-side to the problem, that exists in a lot of content - during events they would just get nuked in seconds - not fun either).

Anyway, I do think there's a bit of relevance to the overall topic in that it points to a problem that I see in harder content - people who enjoy the challenge complete it a few times and move on to the next challenge, leaving the content kind of dead and very difficult for other players to complete after the "new-ness" has worn off. If folks are trying to get overland difficulty scaled up, I think the flip side is that some of these types of harder overland content should also scale down when there are no longer groups of more elite players doing them.

disky

SilverBride wrote: »

It's not punishing if it is giving the player the challenge they are looking for and aren't likely to get any other way.

It is though, because they don't get to take part in creating builds that they really enjoy or suit their character. The challenge gear would essentially remove that element from the game for those players, and builds are a big part of what makes the game enjoyable to play. It doesn't have to work this way and I feel like there's a more elegant solution which could use existing code.

Edit: I see a lot of people already replied with similar sentiments. But the food idea, as long as it stacks, would be fine in my opinion. I still feel like a toggle would be just as effective if not moreso, but at this point it's a superfluous issue.

SilverBride

This is what I don't understand.

Players create builds for participating in challenging content. Because of this their characters become stronger and more powerful. This in turn makes the less challenging story content of overland easier for them.

These players prefer to have more of a challenge while questing in overland but do not wish to remove one of the elements that is making overland easier for them.

Also, are all these characters not playing through overland until they have fully leveled and geared up? Is no one playing through the story at lower levels?

Four_Fingers

Seriously they go and do things like grind Skyreach to hit max level in a couple days, then have a problem with being over leveled when they do overland quests. #facepalm

Silentverge

SilverBride wrote: »

This is what I don't understand.

Players create builds for participating in challenging content. Because of this their characters become stronger and more powerful. This in turn makes the less challenging story content of overland easier for them.

These players prefer to have more of a challenge while questing in overland but do not wish to remove one of the elements that is making overland easier for them.

Also, are all these characters not playing through overland until they have fully leveled and geared up? Is no one playing through the story at lower levels?

Even at lvl 1 the overland is stupid easy. I think what people want is to be able to play the overworld at higher lvls with decent gear and still have a challenge instead of having to handycap themselves.

Also, to start a new charater at lvl 1 and have a challenging leveling experience. Not everyone wants to power level to 50 in 4 hours.

Elsonso

SilverBride wrote: »

This is what I don't understand.

Players create builds for participating in challenging content. Because of this their characters become stronger and more powerful. This in turn makes the less challenging story content of overland easier for them.

These players prefer to have more of a challenge while questing in overland but do not wish to remove one of the elements that is making overland easier for them.

Also, are all these characters not playing through overland until they have fully leveled and geared up? Is no one playing through the story at lower levels?

I don't think it is entirely that.

There are two other factors happening here.

1) Power creep. Our characters can be much more powerful than they were at launch. While I appreciate the efforts to make harder overland content, or tiered difficulty, the real problem is that our characters are just too powerful. No one should be pulling DPS numbers like I see around here, and ZOS should not be trying to chase those people, either. Power creep should be addressed, whether or not anything happens on overland.

2) Player experience. What was once hard is no longer hard at all. The content didn't change. The players changed, and there is no way to go back. I see evidence of this a lot, especially in the Infinite Archives is too hard thread.

I am playing through the Daggerfall Covenant alliance main quest right now on a new-ish character (lvl 46) and an account that doesn't have any significant history. The content in Glenumbra hasn't changed since the last time I was there, which was years ago, but it is easier. Why? I think that the Arcanist is way over power, and I am way over skill.

(typo)

SilverBride

Silentverge wrote: »

I think what people want is to be able to play the overworld at higher lvls with decent gear and still have a challenge instead of having to handycap themselves.

I think that it is fine to ask for a quality of life solution to allow these players to enjoy the experience more. But I think the player also has an obligation to make changes that are in their control that would help accomplish this.

Especially with something like overland that is not intended to be challenging content, and can only be played through once per character.

disky

SilverBride wrote: »

This is what I don't understand.

Players create builds for participating in challenging content. Because of this their characters become stronger and more powerful. This in turn makes the less challenging story content of overland easier for them.

These players prefer to have more of a challenge while questing in overland but do not wish to remove one of the elements that is making overland easier for them.

Also, are all these characters not playing through overland until they have fully leveled and geared up? Is no one playing through the story at lower levels?

Playing through the story from level 1 with no champion points enabled or any other tricks is still free of challenge, and I can confirm this because I've been doing it for the past few days.

Players create builds because yes, becoming stronger is satisfying, but the right combinations of gear can also help improve quality of life or add flair to a character. I'm building an ice-focused Warden right now and I've been looking up sets with cool ice effects because I want to see them when I'm playing. It's more complex than number go up, but even if it were only that, I don't think there's anything wrong with wanting to engage in theorycrafting and improving your character while also experiencing challenge every step of the way. If your build can help to move you through it just a little bit more effectively or efficiently, that can be really satisfying.

Telling players that they just need to stop building strong characters is not a solution. The game should be able to meet its players' ability to overcome its challenges, and in other venues like instanced content, it does. There's no reason it can't do it in overland as well, as we have already agreed. By adding vet modes to instanced PvE content, ZOS has shown that they understand a desire to be challenged exists in the community and they simply need to extend their efforts to address those players' needs into the overland game.

disky

Four_Fingers wrote: »

Seriously they go and do things like grind Skyreach to hit max level in a couple days, then have a problem with being over leveled when they do overland quests. #facepalm

It's not about being over-leveled, because enemies are scaled to player level. It's that, from Level 1 onward, the player is already incredibly powerful and they only become stronger over time. For a lot of people this is fine, they want to feel superhuman, but others don't. ZOS could address this by translating their challenge ideas from instanced PvE content and PvP, which already have debuffs and vet modes, into overland. Or they can do something else, but the point is the overland game doesn't ever meet the needs of players who prefer a challenge whether they're Level 1 or CP3600.

valenwood_vegan

Elsonso wrote: »

The content in Glenumbra hasn't changed since the last time I was there, which was years ago, but it is easier. Why? I think that the Arcanist is way over power, and I am way over skill.

I do agree about power creep being a real thing. It's hard for them to address - we all saw the uproar that u35 caused. I'm not necessarily trying to say that level of uproar was justified, but people generally do not like getting less powerful.

And I think it's just as important to consider the second part of your statement too about being way over-skilled. Old content is easier for us because our characters are more powerful, yes... but I think it's just as much because this game has been around for such a long time now and we're much more skilled.

I started somewhat recently in the grand scheme of eso (with Elsweyr), but I remember struggling mightily in overland... being unable to kill quest bosses... the first time I accidentally set foot in Elden Hollow I, I was nuked in an instant by the first mob by the waterfall lol.

I can never get that old experience back because of how much my own skill level has increased - I was leveling up a new character for the event recently and I took him into EH1 with under-leveled mismatched gear, and it was so easy. I couldn't believe it.

TLDR; Power creep exists, but I'm unsure whether that's the real problem or whether it's more that player skill (for long-time players) has increased.

And one other related thought that I haven't seen discussed much - my memory is that they "baked in" (as zos put it) a bunch of stat bonuses for brand new characters when CP was reworked - I wonder if part of the problem here is that brand new characters have become so powerful that we have videos of them running around completing content naked with one skill. It's created a very extreme situation of starting out feeling very powerful and getting worse and worse as you level up.

So for high skill players, starting a new character is a joke, they can tear through any content right out of the gate, and then we have the skill and resources to overcome getting weaker (or to continue making new gear to counteract getting weaker). I would love to have the option to start some kind of "hardmode" character for whom the game would actually be challenging at low levels (and a difficulty slider or similar would also be a way of solving this issue).

Meanwhile for new players, they start out strong and maybe aren't learning important lessons when they should be... and get progressively weaker for a long time - when a normal gaming experience and probably their expectation is the exact opposite of this. For some they may get the impression that the game is way too easy and they never even make it to cp. For others, they enjoy the game at first but get stuck as they level up and lack the appropriate gear to overcome their weakness. A difficulty slider could help players falling into these groups as well.

(Edit for typos and to break up paragraphs for ease of reading :P )

Silentverge

jbarnhill1b14_ESO wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

This is what I don't understand.

Players create builds for participating in challenging content. Because of this their characters become stronger and more powerful. This in turn makes the less challenging story content of overland easier for them.

These players prefer to have more of a challenge while questing in overland but do not wish to remove one of the elements that is making overland easier for them.

Also, are all these characters not playing through overland until they have fully leveled and geared up? Is no one playing through the story at lower levels?

Playing through the story from level 1 with no champion points enabled or any other tricks is still free of challenge, and I can confirm this because I've been doing it for the past few days.

Players create builds because yes, becoming stronger is satisfying, but the right combinations of gear can also help improve quality of life or add flair to a character. I'm building an ice-focused Warden right now and I've been looking up sets with cool ice effects because I want to see them when I'm playing. It's more complex than number go up, but even if it were only that, I don't think there's anything wrong with wanting to engage in theorycrafting and improving your character while also experiencing challenge every step of the way. If your build can help to move you through it just a little bit more effectively or efficiently, that can be really satisfying.

Telling players that they just need to stop building strong characters is not a solution. The game should be able to meet its players' ability to overcome its challenges, and in other venues like instanced content, it does. There's no reason it can't do it in overland as well, as we have already agreed. By adding vet modes to instanced PvE content, ZOS has shown that they understand a desire to be challenged exists in the community and they simply need to extend their efforts to address those players' needs into the overland game.

Nailed it! This ^^^

SilverBride

jbarnhill1b14_ESO wrote: »

Telling players that they just need to stop building strong characters is not a solution.

I never told anyone to stop building strong characters. Players need to become stronger and more powerful for doing end game content.

I am just saying gear appropriately for the content you are doing.

Players wouldn't go into a trial in trash gear with no good skills slotted, so they shouldn't go into overland questing in trial gear and expect it to be a challenge.

Players change their gear and builds all the time to fit the content they are participating in. This is what the armory station is for. Why is it any different to have an overland gear set and build?

Kendaric

jbarnhill1b14_ESO wrote: »

Four_Fingers wrote: »

Seriously they go and do things like grind Skyreach to hit max level in a couple days, then have a problem with being over leveled when they do overland quests. #facepalm

It's not about being over-leveled, because enemies are scaled to player level. It's that, from Level 1 onward, the player is already incredibly powerful and they only become stronger over time. For a lot of people this is fine, they want to feel superhuman, but others don't. ZOS could address this by translating their challenge ideas from instanced PvE content and PvP, which already have debuffs and vet modes, into overland. Or they can do something else, but the point is the overland game doesn't ever meet the needs of players who prefer a challenge whether they're Level 1 or CP3600.

Mobs aren't scaled to the player's level, they are static level 50 CP 160. It's the player that gets scaled scaled up if they're below that and there's the root of the problem as far as new characters are concerned. Since the game can't know how you'll place your attributes, they all get scaled up and thereby lead to the ridiculously powerful characters.

In addition, there's the problem of players having extensive knowledge and experience in playing the game as @Elsonso mentioned in his post. This is an issue ZOS won't be able to work around, even if they decide to create an optional harder overland.
They could, of course, do an extensive rework of virtually every mob in the game to have improved and new mechanics, but such a rework would have to be mandatory and you can bet that ESO would see a mass exodus of players.

So, even with a difficulty slider/toggle I doubt you'd be satisfied for long. Simply because you're too experienced (and probably too well equipped) to find a real challenge in overland content.

Silentverge

Kendaric wrote: »

jbarnhill1b14_ESO wrote: »

Four_Fingers wrote: »

Seriously they go and do things like grind Skyreach to hit max level in a couple days, then have a problem with being over leveled when they do overland quests. #facepalm

It's not about being over-leveled, because enemies are scaled to player level. It's that, from Level 1 onward, the player is already incredibly powerful and they only become stronger over time. For a lot of people this is fine, they want to feel superhuman, but others don't. ZOS could address this by translating their challenge ideas from instanced PvE content and PvP, which already have debuffs and vet modes, into overland. Or they can do something else, but the point is the overland game doesn't ever meet the needs of players who prefer a challenge whether they're Level 1 or CP3600.

Mobs aren't scaled to the player's level, they are static level 50 CP 160. It's the player that gets scaled scaled up if they're below that and there's the root of the problem as far as new characters are concerned. Since the game can't know how you'll place your attributes, they all get scaled up and thereby lead to the ridiculously powerful characters.

In addition, there's the problem of players having extensive knowledge and experience in playing the game as @Elsonso mentioned in his post. This is an issue ZOS won't be able to work around, even if they decide to create an optional harder overland.
They could, of course, do an extensive rework of virtually every mob in the game to have improved and new mechanics, but such a rework would have to be mandatory and you can bet that ESO would see a mass exodus of players.

So, even with a difficulty slider/toggle I doubt you'd be satisfied for long. Simply because you're too experienced (and probably too well equipped) to find a real challenge in overland content.

What if on hard mode it only scaled your character to lvl 40 and a harder mode to lvl 30 ect ect. this would at least make it more of a challenge. The issue of player skill will still be an issue. However, at least you wont be one shotting every mob. It would still be worth doing imo.

edit: The issue is not that we want raid boss mechanics for normal overland mobs. Its the fact that it is waaaay too easy. Normal mobs have mechanics, albeit simple ones, but as it is now, the mobs dont have a chance to use them because they all die immediately. If they were "harder" you would have to block, dodge, interupt all that, at least a little bit. Which in turn would make questing more engaging, especially boss fights and would teach new players how to actually play the game and not be complete trash when they hit end game.

Braffin

SilverBride wrote: »

jbarnhill1b14_ESO wrote: »

Telling players that they just need to stop building strong characters is not a solution.

I never told anyone to stop building strong characters. Players need to become stronger and more powerful for doing end game content.

I am just saying gear appropriately for the content you are doing.

Players wouldn't go into a trial in trash gear with no good skills slotted, so they shouldn't go into overland questing in trial gear and expect it to be a challenge.

Players change their gear and builds all the time to fit the content they are participating in. This is what the armory station is for. Why is it any different to have an overland gear set and build?

You are aware, that trial gear usually offers less benefits than any other gear in this game? It's basically a 3 to 4 pc set instead of the usual five outside of instanced content.

Having an overland gear set and build isn't different to other builds tho, but artifically limiting build options, because 99% of available sets and 95% of available builds are overkill for this content has nothing to do with creating a build anymore. That's just pointless.

That's simply not fun anymore. So many people ask for optional overland difficulty, as many others ask for easier dungeon modes (or even outright nerfs to content, if they personally find something too hard for the first few days after release).