Overland Content Feedback Thread

Silentverge · January 8

Put it this way... I started playing ESO recently with my 8 year old son and even he is complaining its too easy lol i mean cmon now.

valenwood_vegan · January 8

Silentverge wrote: »

Put it this way... I started playing ESO recently with my 8 year old son and even he is complaining its too easy lol i mean cmon now.

And I could find someone who says it's too difficult or just right. All this proves is that some think it's too easy and others don't.

Silentverge · January 8

valenwood_vegan wrote: »

Silentverge wrote: »

Put it this way... I started playing ESO recently with my 8 year old son and even he is complaining its too easy lol i mean cmon now.

And I could find someone who says it's too difficult or just right. All this proves is that some think it's too easy and others don't.

right, thats why we are asking it to be OPTIONAL

why do we keep having this same argument? lol <snip>

<snipped for Cursing and Profanity>

spartaxoxo · January 8

SilverBride wrote: »

This is what I don't understand.

Players create builds for participating in challenging content. Because of this their characters become stronger and more powerful. This in turn makes the less challenging story content of overland easier for them.

These players prefer to have more of a challenge while questing in overland but do not wish to remove one of the elements that is making overland easier for them.

Also, are all these characters not playing through overland until they have fully leveled and geared up? Is no one playing through the story at lower levels?

Yes. I don't want to change my gear because it's against the RPG elements that I enjoy. The game is an action RPG when I make an alt. The game is an action RPG when I do existing challenging content. The game is a walking sim when I do overland on an established character.

As for not playing overland until fully leveled, I try to play zones the first time with my main character. She's been built up for years. I do that because the story has the best continuity if you use the same character the whole time. There are characters that reappear, for example, that will talk with you about your adventures together if you use an established character instead of a new one. I don't want to miss out on that by rolling a new character every time a new zone drops.

Kendaric · January 8

Silentverge wrote: »

Kendaric wrote: »

Mobs aren't scaled to the player's level, they are static level 50 CP 160. It's the player that gets scaled scaled up if they're below that and there's the root of the problem as far as new characters are concerned. Since the game can't know how you'll place your attributes, they all get scaled up and thereby lead to the ridiculously powerful characters.

In addition, there's the problem of players having extensive knowledge and experience in playing the game as @Elsonso mentioned in his post. This is an issue ZOS won't be able to work around, even if they decide to create an optional harder overland.
They could, of course, do an extensive rework of virtually every mob in the game to have improved and new mechanics, but such a rework would have to be mandatory and you can bet that ESO would see a mass exodus of players.

So, even with a difficulty slider/toggle I doubt you'd be satisfied for long. Simply because you're too experienced (and probably too well equipped) to find a real challenge in overland content.

What if on hard mode it only scaled your character to lvl 40 and a harder mode to lvl 30 ect ect. this would at least make it more of a challenge. The issue if player skill will still be an issue, however, at least you wont be one shotting every mob. It would still be worth doing imo.

edit: The issue is not that we want raid boss mechanics for normal overland mobs. Its the fact that it is waaaay too easy. normal mobs have mechanics, albeit simple ones but as it is now, the mobs dont have a chance to use them because they all die immediately. I they were "harder" you would have to block, dodge, interupt all that, at least a little bit. Which in turn would make questing more engaging, especially boss fights.

A different scaling would (or should

) work. Even I think that the current player scaling is way too strong and I don't even want harder overland. The way I'd handle the scaling:

- normal mode: Level 50 CP 0 (down from CP 160)
- adventure mode: Level 40
- heroic mode: Level 30

Or something similar to that. And I'd limit application of the red and blue CP trees to level 50 characters (if that's impossible than have all CP apply only at 50).

spartaxoxo · January 8

Four_Fingers wrote: »

Seriously they go and do things like grind Skyreach to hit max level in a couple days, then have a problem with being over leveled when they do overland quests. #facepalm

That's actually the best way to get a challenge from overland. When you're under level 50 there is a hidden buff that makes you much stronger. So, that ALL players regardless can do the tutorial content. Your personal skill and gear level really starts to translate directly to progress after level 50, barring certain circumstances like mega ping, age, disability, etc.

SilverBride · January 8

Braffin wrote: »

Having an overland gear set and build isn't different to other builds tho, but artifically limiting build options, because 99% of available sets and 95% of available builds are overkill for this content has nothing to do with creating a build anymore. That's just pointless.

In my opinion, creating gear and a build that satisfies the desire for a more challenging experience in overland isn't pointless. I do not undestand why something that can help give players that experience is unacceptable.

Overland is never going to be challenging for an experienced player with powerful gear and builds, and that is fine for many of us because we know that overland isn't a challenging part of the game. But for those that would like a quality of life change so they can enjoy it more, well the options are limited. It would behoove players to look at what is more likely to be implemented.

Elsonso · January 8

valenwood_vegan wrote: »

I started somewhat recently in the grand scheme of eso (with Elsweyr), but I remember struggling mightily in overland... being unable to kill quest bosses... the first time I accidentally set foot in Elden Hollow I, I was nuked in an instant by the first mob by the waterfall lol.

I can never get that old experience back because of how much my own skill level has increased - I was leveling up a new character for the event recently and I took him into EH1 with under-leveled mismatched gear, and it was so easy. I couldn't believe it.

I can remember going into Fungal Grotto I and wiping before I even left the first room. The entry room.

valenwood_vegan wrote: »

TLDR; Power creep exists, but I'm unsure whether that's the real problem or whether it's more that player skill (for long-time players) has increased.

I am pretty sure that power creep exists, but I am currently leveling an Arcanist. Whether that is just Arcanist or whether it is every class, I dunno.

Braffin · January 8

SilverBride wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

Having an overland gear set and build isn't different to other builds tho, but artifically limiting build options, because 99% of available sets and 95% of available builds are overkill for this content has nothing to do with creating a build anymore. That's just pointless.

In my opinion, creating gear and a build that satisfies the desire for a more challenging experience in overland isn't pointless. I do not undestand why something that can help give players that experience is unacceptable.

Overland is never going to be challenging for an experienced player with powerful gear and builds, and that is fine for many of us because we know that overland isn't a challenging part of the game. But for those that would like a quality of life change so they can enjoy it more, well the options are limited. It would behoove players to look at what is more likely to be implemented.

We don't ask for challenging overland but mainly for somewhat immersive overland, at least difficult enough to make "being the hero" believable.

Creating a build is an essential part of every rpg since pen&paper times. Removing all talents, perks and equipment (in eso skills, CP and gear) the player earned to play the game has nothing to do with creating a build tho.

It's basically reverting the levelling process and trying to undo the build creation you're pretending to fulfill.

Additional options are what is asked for, not elimination of existing choices.

SilverBride · January 8

Braffin wrote: »

Creating a build is an essential part of every rpg since pen&paper times. Removing all talents, perks and equipment (in eso skills, CP and gear) the player earned to play the game has nothing to do with creating a build tho.

It's basically reverting the levelling process and trying to undo the build creation you're pretending to fulfill.

Going from veteran end game content to overland is a step backward in difficulty. Taking a powerful and experienced player back to the most basic of the game's content is not going to make for a challenging experience unless the player is willing to adapt themselves to that content.

The overland experience is fine for many players, so changing it for everyone won't work. This mean the player that wants the change needs to be willing to make some changes and work with whatever help the developers may choose to offer.

Elsonso · January 8

Silentverge wrote: »

What if on hard mode it only scaled your character to lvl 40 and a harder mode to lvl 30 ect ect. this would at least make it more of a challenge. The issue of player skill will still be an issue. However, at least you wont be one shotting every mob. It would still be worth doing imo.

I was thinking that a slider would work that way, but honestly, I think that player skill has a lot to do with things.

For a lot of content, I just know what to do. Where to stand. How long I have before I really need to get out of a red circle. Whether I need to get out of the red circle at all.

One of the other issues that I am noticing is that the monsters are just slow. That is also an artifact of experience, and no amount of player scaling is going to fix that.

spartaxoxo · January 8

Level 50+ character with no attributes or CP assigned. No gear equipped except a weapon.

https://youtu.be/EN-Ixn0tFzs?si=O1YeOoTDeM894kSA

My main

https://youtu.be/WTDxmuSRNto?si=_AkjrdOaAxtgF0j6

Yes, getting rid of power would help. As would a slider or a separate instance. Mobs already have mechs.

SilverBride · January 8

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Yes, getting rid of power would help. As would a slider or a separate instance. Mobs already have mechs.

I still think an armor set and build is a good idea, but for those that do not like this option, what other suggestions are there? Debuff foods?

Braffin · January 8

SilverBride wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

Creating a build is an essential part of every rpg since pen&paper times. Removing all talents, perks and equipment (in eso skills, CP and gear) the player earned to play the game has nothing to do with creating a build tho.

It's basically reverting the levelling process and trying to undo the build creation you're pretending to fulfill.

Going from veteran end game content to overland is a step backward in difficulty. Taking a powerful and experienced player back to the most basic of the game's content is not going to make for a challenging experience unless the player is willing to adapt themselves to that content.

The overland experience is fine for many players, so changing it for everyone won't work. This mean the player that wants the change needs to be willing to make some changes and work with whatever help the developers may choose to offer.

I'm not talking about making overland the same as veteran endgame content.

I'm also not talking about changing overland for everyone, but about adding options. For players not interested in increased difficulty, nothing would change.

I'm sure tho, I won't buy future chapters anymore. Why should I spend money on gear I shall not use to play content not made for me?

spartaxoxo · January 8

SilverBride wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Yes, getting rid of power would help. As would a slider or a separate instance. Mobs already have mechs.

Great examples.

I guess the biggest question now is how best to do it.

I still think an armor set and build is a good idea, but for those that do not like this option, what other suggestions are there? Debuff foods?

Yes. Debuff food. A landscape slider. Challenge banners. Whatever. I don't like gear but I don't care if it's food or a slider. Whichever would be best for the devs. I just want to be able to keep my build and get a bit more difficulty.

SilverBride · January 8

spartaxoxo wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Yes, getting rid of power would help. As would a slider or a separate instance. Mobs already have mechs.

Great examples.

I guess the biggest question now is how best to do it.

I still think an armor set and build is a good idea, but for those that do not like this option, what other suggestions are there? Debuff foods?

Yes. Debuff food. A landscape slider. Challenge banners. Whatever. I don't like gear but I don't care if it's food or a slider. Whichever would be best for the devs. I just want to be able to keep my build and get a bit more difficulty.

Well I hope they see these as viable options because I think that any of these would make a difference for the players that want this change.

Silentverge · January 8

Elsonso wrote: »

Silentverge wrote: »

What if on hard mode it only scaled your character to lvl 40 and a harder mode to lvl 30 ect ect. this would at least make it more of a challenge. The issue of player skill will still be an issue. However, at least you wont be one shotting every mob. It would still be worth doing imo.

I was thinking that a slider would work that way, but honestly, I think that player skill has a lot to do with things.

For a lot of content, I just know what to do. Where to stand. How long I have before I really need to get out of a red circle. Whether I need to get out of the red circle at all.

One of the other issues that I am noticing is that the monsters are just slow. That is also an artifact of experience, and no amount of player scaling is going to fix that.

Player skill of course has a huge factor in this, and there really is no good way to fix that for overworld but debuffing the player significantly would still create more of a challenge for sure. Instead of one shotting every enemy, you may have to dodge once or twice or mess up and get a chunk of your hp taken from a trash mob. My point is that it would certainly be more fun/engaging and not so much as a snooze fest that it is now. Again, make it an optional difficulty slider that affects only the player.

Silentverge · January 8

SilverBride wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Yes, getting rid of power would help. As would a slider or a separate instance. Mobs already have mechs.

Great examples.

I guess the biggest question now is how best to do it.

I still think an armor set and build is a good idea, but for those that do not like this option, what other suggestions are there? Debuff foods?

some sort of debuff that doesnt take anything away from the game.

Silentverge · January 8

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Level 50+ character with no attributes or CP assigned. No gear equipped except a weapon.

https://youtu.be/EN-Ixn0tFzs?si=O1YeOoTDeM894kSA

My main

https://youtu.be/WTDxmuSRNto?si=_AkjrdOaAxtgF0j6

Yes, getting rid of power would help. As would a slider or a separate instance. Mobs already have mechs.

Fantastic example! So thats proof that a debuff slider or food or whatever would absolutely work.

SilverBride · January 8

We have been given an answer multiple times and their stance has not changed.

vsrs_au · January 8

valenwood_vegan wrote: »

Silentverge wrote: »

Put it this way... I started playing ESO recently with my 8 year old son and even he is complaining its too easy lol i mean cmon now.

And I could find someone who says it's too difficult or just right. All this proves is that some think it's too easy and others don't.

Agreed. Whoever posted above that it was too easy at level 1 was just assuming other players all have the same experience of the game. In other words, it's an invalid generalisation.

Silentverge · January 8

vsrs_au wrote: »

valenwood_vegan wrote: »

Silentverge wrote: »

Put it this way... I started playing ESO recently with my 8 year old son and even he is complaining its too easy lol i mean cmon now.

And I could find someone who says it's too difficult or just right. All this proves is that some think it's too easy and others don't.

Agreed. Whoever posted above that it was too easy at level 1 was just assuming other players all have the same experience of the game. In other words, it's an invalid generalisation.

still doesn't mean i couldn't benefit from an optional harder difficulty.

wolfsilver · January 10

So, wow, didn't realize the thread was THAT long; not sure if this has been brought up before, but would there be a problem with making zone story bosses (at least in the base game) solo instances and scaling them to the player, or only having that occur when the player hits the CP mark? As it stands, it's just utterly underwhelming for bosses like the Brother's strife or Mannimarco to be hyped up as these massive threats, only to be able to defeat them with hardly that big a fuss; the victory over them in that moment in the story just doesn't feel earned (and having them eventually be a battle in Infinite Archive's just doesn't feel the same, as it's occurring outside the story, with none of the narrative tension that had been built up, nor even the same battlefield. (maybe if the archive's recreated the entirety of the situation, just with the ramped up difficulty, that might help or something). Apologies if this has been brought up before and anyone's annoyed

valenwood_vegan · January 10

wolfsilver wrote: »

So, wow, didn't realize the thread was THAT long; not sure if this has been brought up before, but would there be a problem with making zone story bosses (at least in the base game) solo instances and scaling them to the player, or only having that occur when the player hits the CP mark? [...] Apologies if this has been brought up before and anyone's annoyed.

It has definitely been brought up in various forms, like having an optional "vet" version or "challenge banner" or difficulty scaling for important quest bosses, and I think generally met with approval as long as it was done in an optional way. It seems like very low hanging fruit that could be accomplished more quickly and with less controversy than solutions affecting all of overland.

Can't speak for anyone else, but I'm not annoyed that you brought it up, I wouldn't expect you to actually read through this entire thread before posting at this point

Warhawke_80 · January 10

SilverBride wrote: »

jbarnhill1b14_ESO wrote: »

Telling players that they just need to stop building strong characters is not a solution.

I never told anyone to stop building strong characters. Players need to become stronger and more powerful for doing end game content.

I am just saying gear appropriately for the content you are doing.

Players wouldn't go into a trial in trash gear with no good skills slotted, so they shouldn't go into overland questing in trial gear and expect it to be a challenge.

Players change their gear and builds all the time to fit the content they are participating in. This is what the armory station is for. Why is it any different to have an overland gear set and build?

Oddly enough none of them will just wear just a costume overland and one green weapon.....those few that do still say it isn't hard enough which goes back to my original point of it never will be enough for some....

Silentverge · January 11

Warhawke_80 wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

jbarnhill1b14_ESO wrote: »

Telling players that they just need to stop building strong characters is not a solution.

I never told anyone to stop building strong characters. Players need to become stronger and more powerful for doing end game content.

I am just saying gear appropriately for the content you are doing.

Players wouldn't go into a trial in trash gear with no good skills slotted, so they shouldn't go into overland questing in trial gear and expect it to be a challenge.

Players change their gear and builds all the time to fit the content they are participating in. This is what the armory station is for. Why is it any different to have an overland gear set and build?

Oddly enough none of them will just wear just a costume overland and one green weapon.....those few that do still say it isn't hard enough which goes back to my original point of it never will be enough for some....

That's why I suggested a difficulty slider in the options menu just like Skyrim has.

Story Mode: as it is now
Easy Mode: 200% damage to player, -50% player damage to enemies
Balanced: 400% damage to player, -100% player damage to enemies
Hard Mode: 600% damage to player, -150% player damage to enemies
Very Hard: 800% damage to player, -200% player damage to enemies
Nightmare: 1200% damage to player, -400% player damage to enemies (Basically need a 4 man party at all times)

No rewards, just a per player debuff given.

Elsonso · January 11

Warhawke_80 wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

jbarnhill1b14_ESO wrote: »

Telling players that they just need to stop building strong characters is not a solution.

I never told anyone to stop building strong characters. Players need to become stronger and more powerful for doing end game content.

I am just saying gear appropriately for the content you are doing.

Players wouldn't go into a trial in trash gear with no good skills slotted, so they shouldn't go into overland questing in trial gear and expect it to be a challenge.

Players change their gear and builds all the time to fit the content they are participating in. This is what the armory station is for. Why is it any different to have an overland gear set and build?

Oddly enough none of them will just wear just a costume overland and one green weapon.....those few that do still say it isn't hard enough which goes back to my original point of it never will be enough for some....

If you take a new player and equip them in a costume and green weapon, it is an upgrade, but they still die.

If you take an expert player and equip them in a costume and green weapon, they can still watch Netflix while eating pizza without dying.

Warhawke_80 · January 12

Elsonso wrote: »

Warhawke_80 wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

jbarnhill1b14_ESO wrote: »

Telling players that they just need to stop building strong characters is not a solution.

I never told anyone to stop building strong characters. Players need to become stronger and more powerful for doing end game content.

I am just saying gear appropriately for the content you are doing.

Players wouldn't go into a trial in trash gear with no good skills slotted, so they shouldn't go into overland questing in trial gear and expect it to be a challenge.

Players change their gear and builds all the time to fit the content they are participating in. This is what the armory station is for. Why is it any different to have an overland gear set and build?

Oddly enough none of them will just wear just a costume overland and one green weapon.....those few that do still say it isn't hard enough which goes back to my original point of it never will be enough for some....

If you take a new player and equip them in a costume and green weapon, it is an upgrade, but they still die.

If you take an expert player and equip them in a costume and green weapon, they can still watch Netflix while eating pizza without dying.

My point exactly....for some it will never be enough.

And some players think it's hilarious to talk the devs into providing ridiculously hard content I have seen that first hand in EQ, the guild FOH talked the devs into tuning the sleeper to a point that it was literally impossible to do just to see how much influence they actually had...so the problem is much more complex than folks think.

disky · January 14

Warhawke_80 wrote: »

And some players think it's hilarious to talk the devs into providing ridiculously hard content I have seen that first hand in EQ, the guild FOH talked the devs into tuning the sleeper to a point that it was literally impossible to do just to see how much influence they actually had...so the problem is much more complex than folks think.

It sounds to me like the alternative you're presenting is that we never ask for a feature many people want and the game could benefit from. I'm sorry, but "that one time in EverQuest" isn't enough to convince me that too-easy content is just the way it has to be. I really don't think I'm asking for much, and I'm not asking that the status quo be disrupted. I would simply like to be challenged in overland because as it is now, I literally nod off while doing overland content, and overland content is the thing I would like to do most in the game.

wolfsilver · January 14

valenwood_vegan wrote: »

wolfsilver wrote: »

So, wow, didn't realize the thread was THAT long; not sure if this has been brought up before, but would there be a problem with making zone story bosses (at least in the base game) solo instances and scaling them to the player, or only having that occur when the player hits the CP mark? [...] Apologies if this has been brought up before and anyone's annoyed.

It has definitely been brought up in various forms, like having an optional "vet" version or "challenge banner" or difficulty scaling for important quest bosses, and I think generally met with approval as long as it was done in an optional way. It seems like very low hanging fruit that could be accomplished more quickly and with less controversy than solutions affecting all of overland.

Can't speak for anyone else, but I'm not annoyed that you brought it up, I wouldn't expect you to actually read through this entire thread before posting at this point

Well, what about the idea of making the story bosses solo instances, like how you do for the main quest? Or not merely taking into account cp level, but the players skill set up, and gear sets? Or even taking into account what CP perks the player has invested in?