Overland Content Feedback Thread

SilverBride

Gibrans wrote: »

So you wouldn't want something that would be completely optional to you? Makes sense lol

No because separating the playerbase would have a negative effect on the game.

Gibrans

SilverBride wrote: »

Gibrans wrote: »

So you wouldn't want something that would be completely optional to you? Makes sense lol

No because separating the playerbase would have a negative effect on the game.

The player base that would want to do the mode are probably the same who dapple in veteran content already, the ones who don't wouldn't care as the same easy overland content will still be there. There's no changing my mind that nothing would be wrong with having an optional vet mode.

spartaxoxo

If there was a separate vet overland with special prizes, I would play exclusively in vet. I currently play on normal and even enjoy it sometimes. But, you can only do quests once. There's no going back and just doing it again on vet later. So, I'd have to play the mode with the better rewards.

Snamyap

Deserrick wrote: »

As a new player, Overland content is already too difficult for me to play how I want; instead, choosing skills and equipment that feel interesting, thematic, or roleplay-friendly is punished by death. A difficulty slider like Morrowind, Oblivion, or Skyrim had would potentially satisfy those who feel Overland is too easy, as well as those like me who would like more freedom for building and playing our characters.

Every game has rules, mechanics and a learning curve. The "play how you want" mantra doesn't mean you can just ignore all that and still expect to do well.

Muizer

A slider or switch that changes nothing about the game except the hardiness of the mobs would never work.

First, let's look at the switch: Exactly how hardy would the mobs have to be made? For any given person, that level could be 'just too hard' in which case it solves nothing, or it could be 'still too easy' which arguably is the worst of all options (now the fights are still tedious, they just last longer).

Next let's look at the slider: To avoid the above you'd have to allow players to closely calibrate the difficulty so it is 'just right' for them. But this means a great many difficulty levels which will split up the player base in small sections. So a slider could only work if it operates on the player, not the content. But that people can already do by gimping themselves, and I don't see many people doing that, which should tell us something.


No, switches and sliders only sound good as long as you don't think about the implications.So unless someone comes up with a solution, can we just stop asking for this? There's no point asking for magical fixes. Only for something that can actually be built (and, I would add, something ZOS can justify dedicating resources to, i.e. something they can sell).

spartaxoxo

Muizer wrote: »

No, switches and sliders only sound good as long as you don't think about the implications.So unless someone comes up with a solution, can we just stop asking for this? There's no point asking for magical fixes. Only for something that can actually be built (and, I would add, something ZOS can justify dedicating resources to, i.e. something they can sell).

Sliders have proven to work on the single player games and in another MMO. So, I don't know why it wouldn't work on this one. Since they just work with debuffs that do things like mark you as open to a special attack to a mob, it's pretty simple for them to have multiple levels of customization.

https://media.mmorpg.com/images/heroes/posts/123533.jpg

It does not split up the play base because the player is debuffed. So, they can play right next to or with someone who isn't using it. You can push a slider than can be done with gear (not to mention that being able to wear gear is a big part of an RPG experience). And removing your gear does not offer special attacks.

Snamyap

Muizer wrote: »

A slider or switch that changes nothing about the game except the hardiness of the mobs would never work.

First, let's look at the switch: Exactly how hardy would the mobs have to be made? For any given person, that level could be 'just too hard' in which case it solves nothing, or it could be 'still too easy' which arguably is the worst of all options (now the fights are still tedious, they just last longer).

Next let's look at the slider: To avoid the above you'd have to allow players to closely calibrate the difficulty so it is 'just right' for them. But this means a great many difficulty levels which will split up the player base in small sections. So a slider could only work if it operates on the player, not the content. But that people can already do by gimping themselves, and I don't see many people doing that, which should tell us something.


No, switches and sliders only sound good as long as you don't think about the implications.So unless someone comes up with a solution, can we just stop asking for this? There's no point asking for magical fixes. Only for something that can actually be built (and, I would add, something ZOS can justify dedicating resources to, i.e. something they can sell).

I think overland/quest content should do a better job at teaching the mechanics that you will encounter in harder content (interrupt, block, dodge), without the harsh, deadly consequences if you fail to react.
For instance way back I learned to interrupt because of spiders regenerating on corpses. If you can kill those spiders so fast that they can't reach a corpse then that whole mechanic fails.
Following mechanics should make combat go quicker and more efficient, failing them should prolong the fight (without an immediate death threat).

Damico

The lack of engaging overland content is currently splitting the playerbase, still waiting on a solution.

Muizer

@spartaxoxo ok, let me unpick this:

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Sliders have proven to work on the single player games

Single player games do not have the challenge of having to accommodate multiple difficulty levels at the same time. So I think that only muddies the water.

spartaxoxo wrote: »

and in another MMO.

This part is interesting.

spartaxoxo wrote: »

So, I don't know why it wouldn't work on this one. Since they just work with debuffs that do things like mark you as open to a special attack to a mob, it's pretty simple for them to have multiple levels of customization. It does not split up the play base because the player is debuffed.So, they can play right next to or with someone who isn't using it.

I'm not sure it would be simple to have mobs deploy different abilities depending on your chosen difficulty level, especially when you have to accommodate for multiple different difficulties in the same fight, but if that is possible that would be interesting. That's not a debuff though.

spartaxoxo wrote: »

You can push a slider than can be done with gear (not to mention that being able to wear gear is a big part of an RPG experience). And removing your gear does not offer special attacks.

A gear debuff slider would preserve looks, but it would still rob players of a sense of building up their character's strength, which I'd hazard is an important aspect especially for people who want to be challenged.

SilverBride

Gibrans wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Gibrans wrote: »

So you wouldn't want something that would be completely optional to you? Makes sense lol

No because separating the playerbase would have a negative effect on the game.

The player base that would want to do the mode are probably the same who dapple in veteran content already, the ones who don't wouldn't care as the same easy overland content will still be there. There's no changing my mind that nothing would be wrong with having an optional vet mode.

I dapple in veteran content. A few months ago I started queueing for dungeons, then veteran dungeons, then DLC normal and veteran dungeons, and tried veteran arena a couple of times. I've also started running Bastion Nymics with a friend every day. The only end game content I haven't participated in is trials and that's mostly because of not wanting to be tied to a schedule and the amount of time it takes.

I enjoy the challenges these bring but I do not find it necessary for everything I do to be challenging to that degree. Sometimes I just want to relax so I quest and explore and enjoy the story.

I'm not trying to change anyone's mind about what they want because not everyone enjoys the same things and it's just a matter of preference. I am just providing feedback on something I feel would be harmful to the game I love.

Deserrick

Snamyap wrote: »

Every game has rules, mechanics and a learning curve. The "play how you want" mantra doesn't mean you can just ignore all that and still expect to do well.

Morrowind has rules, mechanics, and a learning curve. However, thanks to its difficulty slider, I didn't have to abandon fun options in favor of a few functional options like I do in this game.

Twohothardware

They definitely should not split the player base for two different difficultly levels in Overland. The active player base right now is not big enough unless they went to full Crossplay across all platforms including PC.

spartaxoxo

Muizer wrote: »

ok, let me unpick this:

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Sliders have proven to work on the single player games

Single player games do not have the challenge of having to accommodate multiple difficulty levels at the same time. So I think that only muddies the water.

spartaxoxo wrote: »

and in another MMO.

This part is interesting.

spartaxoxo wrote: »

So, I don't know why it wouldn't work on this one. Since they just work with debuffs that do things like mark you as open to a special attack to a mob, it's pretty simple for them to have multiple levels of customization. It does not split up the play base because the player is debuffed.So, they can play right next to or with someone who isn't using it.

I'm not sure it would be simple to have mobs deploy different abilities depending on your chosen difficulty level, especially when you have to accommodate for multiple different difficulties in the same fight, but if that is possible that would be interesting. That's not a debuff though.

spartaxoxo wrote: »

You can push a slider than can be done with gear (not to mention that being able to wear gear is a big part of an RPG experience). And removing your gear does not offer special attacks.

A gear debuff slider would preserve looks, but it would still rob players of a sense of building up their character's strength, which I'd hazard is an important aspect especially for people who want to be challenged.

It doesn't debuff the gear it debuffs the player. It's how Lord of the Rings Online works.

It does stuff like apply the following effects on a player.

This is what it does in LOTRO

Decreases outgoing damage
Increases incoming damage
Increases XP and Virtue XP gain
Triggers additional effects on enemy targets

And yeah, that is a debuff. What the slider does is mark you as a target, and then bosses that see that mark will unleash special enraged attacks. The developers of that game themselves talk about how they used debuffs as a "cheat" to giving the players more difficulty because developing a separate server for it was too wide in scope.

The single player games are a good place to look because they could also do things like give you a chilly status effect. Similar to the one already seen in New Life. It increases the longer you're in a zone, until it one shots you. You can remove stacks by going inside towns and near campfires. They already have all the campfires marked because they did it so companions could chatter about them.

Debuff are more than just minor maim. They are any negative status effect.

Edit: another example is how some bosses will mark a specific player for a special attack. E.g. one player will be marked to be charged by might chudan and has to hide behind a wall. Or you be marked by the dragon in Lair of Maarselok and if you don't cleanse the debuff, an enemy spawns. The overland special attacks would by necessity have to be less complicated than that, but something like trolls throwing a log at a marked target that would one shot you unless it was blocked or dodged wouldn't be out of the question.

Elsonso

Twohothardware wrote: »

They definitely should not split the player base for two different difficultly levels in Overland.

This. I think that there would be a negative outcome with any scheme for harder overland that involved zones or instances. The only solution that I have heard that does not divide the population is a slider that makes the player "weaker" compared to the world. The world stays the same, it is just harder to kill things. I have concerns that enough people would use this to make it worth the effort, though.

fluffybunny

We need a difficulty slider

Hanoan

SilverBride wrote: »

Hanoan wrote: »

I see this thread is already 2 years old. Did they do any moves towards increasing difficulty in any way?

They said that Bastion Nymics is one of their answers to those that want increased overland difficulty. This leads me to believe there may be more things coming in the future.

Then they go a wrong way.

Hanoan

Elsonso wrote: »

I have concerns that enough people would use this to make it worth the effort, though.

In LOTRO every second player (or more from what I saw) uses difficulty slider, I do not see why it should be different in ESO.

SilverBride

Hanoan wrote: »

In LOTRO every second player (or more from what I saw) uses difficulty slider, I do not see why it should be different in ESO.

How do you know this? Are others able to see if someone is using increased difficulty?

spartaxoxo

SilverBride wrote: »

Hanoan wrote: »

In LOTRO every second player (or more from what I saw) uses difficulty slider, I do not see why it should be different in ESO.

How do you know this? Are others able to see if someone is using increased difficulty?

I haven't played the game, so I don't know if that is the case or not. But, in the article explaining how it works, they mentioned players would see any special attacks unleashed by adds from the slider. So, it wouldn't take someone paying attention much work to be able to tell if the person they are fighting near has it on if they see a unique animation.

Hanoan

SilverBride wrote: »

How do you know this? Are others able to see if someone is using increased difficulty?

Yes. When you select a character that you can see you can see his/her buffs and debuffs, and difficulty debuff is one of them. For example "Difficulty 9: Heroic +2" and a description of some benefits that it provides, like increased XP and possible reputation rewards gains.

CameraBeardThePirate

SilverBride wrote: »

Gibrans wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Gibrans wrote: »

So you wouldn't want something that would be completely optional to you? Makes sense lol

No because separating the playerbase would have a negative effect on the game.

The player base that would want to do the mode are probably the same who dapple in veteran content already, the ones who don't wouldn't care as the same easy overland content will still be there. There's no changing my mind that nothing would be wrong with having an optional vet mode.

I dapple in veteran content. A few months ago I started queueing for dungeons, then veteran dungeons, then DLC normal and veteran dungeons, and tried veteran arena a couple of times. I've also started running Bastion Nymics with a friend every day. The only end game content I haven't participated in is trials and that's mostly because of not wanting to be tied to a schedule and the amount of time it takes.

I enjoy the challenges these bring but I do not find it necessary for everything I do to be challenging to that degree. Sometimes I just want to relax so I quest and explore and enjoy the story.

I'm not trying to change anyone's mind about what they want because not everyone enjoys the same things and it's just a matter of preference. I am just providing feedback on something I feel would be harmful to the game I love.

How would an optional slider be harmful to your game?

SilverBride

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

How would an optional slider be harmful to your game?

I was responding to a conversation about a separate veteran overland.

casparian

Hanoan wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Hanoan wrote: »

I see this thread is already 2 years old. Did they do any moves towards increasing difficulty in any way?

They said that Bastion Nymics is one of their answers to those that want increased overland difficulty. This leads me to believe there may be more things coming in the future.

Then they go a wrong way.

Yeah, completely agree. The reason overland needs a difficulty option is that existing quests and exploration are boring and unimmersive. Adding completely different activities is just beside the point.

SilverBride

casparian wrote: »

The reason overland needs a difficulty option is that existing quests and exploration are boring and unimmersive.

That is an opinion, not a fact. There is nothing broken with overland that needs to be fixed. The issue is just a matter of personal preference.

casparian

SilverBride wrote: »

casparian wrote: »

The reason overland needs a difficulty option is that existing quests and exploration are boring and unimmersive.

That is an opinion, not a fact. There is nothing broken with overland that needs to be fixed. The issue is just a matter of personal preference.

I mean sure. The view that nothing is broken with overland is also an expression of personal preference. "That's just your opinion man" doesn't really contribute much. I think that the fact that a not-insignificant portion of players share my set of preferences is meaningful and maybe a sign that something needs to be done. I also the think the fact that a not-insignificant portion of players share your set of preferences is equally meaningful. Ideally ZOS produce find an arrangement in which both sets of preferences are met, not just the one.

Anyway the thing I was trying to talk about is that Bastion Nymics don't address the main pain points that have been expressed in this thread about wanting quests to be more of a challenge.

Blackbird_V

SilverBride wrote: »

casparian wrote: »

The reason overland needs a difficulty option is that existing quests and exploration are boring and unimmersive.

That is an opinion, not a fact. There is nothing broken with overland that needs to be fixed. The issue is just a matter of personal preference.

That is also an opinion and not a fact.

Fact of the matter is: a good amount of people have commented on this thread and even the subreddit that overland and questing is easy for them. There was a popular post few months ago on the ESO subreddit where someone took the mick out of Mehrunes Dagon boss fight, where their character just afk'd mechanics including some weird eye laser thing and just didn't die, and the fact that there's even an NPC that just giga heals you...... Stuff like this is not interesting or fun. You grind out all these "quests" to get to the big bad, and the big bad is just a cardboard cutout enemy made of paper.

Other quests that centralise around puzzles are a joke too. One of the blackwood quests has a puzzle where you got to match a rune on 3 pillars to open a door. When you've rotated a pillar to get the correct rune, you cannot rotate it anymore. You can just brute force it. It's really sad and boring to see. There's no effort in overland and questing which is a massive part of the game, and for many and myself it's just not appealing whatsoever.

---

SilverBride

Blackbird_V wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

casparian wrote: »

The reason overland needs a difficulty option is that existing quests and exploration are boring and unimmersive.

That is an opinion, not a fact. There is nothing broken with overland that needs to be fixed. The issue is just a matter of personal preference.

That is also an opinion and not a fact.

If overland was broken players would be unable to complete quests and map objectives etc.. But these things are working just fine (with the exception of a few bugs that have nothing to do with difficulty) and players are able to complete the quests and storylines. So overland is not broken.

Blackbird_V

SilverBride wrote: »

Blackbird_V wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

casparian wrote: »

The reason overland needs a difficulty option is that existing quests and exploration are boring and unimmersive.

That is an opinion, not a fact. There is nothing broken with overland that needs to be fixed. The issue is just a matter of personal preference.

That is also an opinion and not a fact.

If overland was broken players would be unable to complete quests and map objectives etc.. But these things are working just fine (with the exception of a few bugs that have nothing to do with difficulty) and players are able to complete the quests and storylines. So overland is not broken.

There are many definitions and uses for the word "broken".

SilverBride

Blackbird_V wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Blackbird_V wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

casparian wrote: »

The reason overland needs a difficulty option is that existing quests and exploration are boring and unimmersive.

That is an opinion, not a fact. There is nothing broken with overland that needs to be fixed. The issue is just a matter of personal preference.

That is also an opinion and not a fact.

If overland was broken players would be unable to complete quests and map objectives etc.. But these things are working just fine (with the exception of a few bugs that have nothing to do with difficulty) and players are able to complete the quests and storylines. So overland is not broken.

There are many definitions and uses for the word "broken".

Not enjoying the content isn't a definition of broken. That is a personal preference and opinion.

I think it's best if we just agree to disagree.

spartaxoxo

I wouldn't call it broken, but I think there's a clear problem with overland because it alienates a good enough size portion of the playerbase that the devs have continuously looked for ways to address it and have made multiple updates about the issue. They know that at a certain point, the overland ceases to play like the same genre of game. I think the problem can be tackled by addressing the players with too much power who want a challenge though.

Personally, I enjoy TellTale type games so it's fine with me sometimes (and other times not so much) but there are times it's too easy and I get bored. The result is that those story reminders people complain about are useful to me sometimes, because it can be weeks before I'm interested in overland again. I actually still haven't finished Necrom.

Edit gonna quote myself because I still think these videos are good illustrations of what I mean.

spartaxoxo wrote: »

This was my experience with some of the Dragonhold main story quests.

https://youtu.be/q3IU9yvIlXI

And this is my experience with mobs. This one is a so-called elite one, and is the recently discussed river trolls.

https://youtu.be/WTDxmuSRNto