Overland Content Feedback Thread

SilverBride

We have been told that there are no major changes planned for overland difficulty.
We have been told that they do not want to split the playerbase.
We have been told that a slider or other similar concepts are not as easy as just flipping a switch.

These are not my subjective viewpoints, they are facts. And in the almost 2 years that this thread has been pinned with over 5000 posts these facts haven't changed.

Tornaad

SilverBride wrote: »

We have been told that there are no major changes planned for overland difficulty.
We have been told that they do not want to split the playerbase.
We have been told that a slider or other similar concepts are not as easy as just flipping a switch.

These are not my subjective viewpoints, they are facts. And in the almost 2 years that this thread has been pinned with over 5000 posts these facts haven't changed.

I am aware of what they have said. I still hope for something to change and I know that plans can and have changed on a great many things. I am open to how that happens.

Luckylancer

SilverBride wrote: »

We have been told that there are no major changes planned for overland difficulty.
We have been told that they do not want to split the playerbase.
We have been told that a slider or other similar concepts are not as easy as just flipping a switch.

These are not my subjective viewpoints, they are facts. And in the almost 2 years that this thread has been pinned with over 5000 posts these facts haven't changed.

We have been told upgrading servers would not simply fix PvP lag. And do you know what happened? It fixed the problem. Devs lied before they can lie again.

I am sure a slider or switch flipping is extremely easy. It will be a debuf.
Spliting the player base? This whole harder overland idea is about bringing people that dont want overland because of difficulty. Playerbase is already seperated: those who play overland and those who do not.

Take away your useless facts and snip snip snip...

2 overland areas are released every year and that developement time mean nothing for a significant part of player base. It is so stupid.

Tornaad

One thing I can't help but think about is the fact that they have pinned this thread in the first place.
The decision makers at ZoS are tight lipped about their future plans almost to a fault. However, they still pinned this thread. They also still monitor it and make sure everything stays within acceptable bounds.
That leaves me with a question specifically why.
If they really have no plans to ever address this request, then why not simply update the forum rules to make this topic off limits?
Why take the time to continue monitoring the thread? Why keep it pinned at the top of the forums?

The only reasonable answer I have is that the topic is of such heated interest (from both sides) that they wanted to keep a closer eye on it to better guide their efforts on what they ultimately try to do about the concept.
And whatever they do about this request, will take some time. Likely far more than a few years. Are they working on something right now? I have no idea. Are they carefully combing through this thread to get ideas for what they will do? I think so. Could I be completely off on all of this? Sure. But one thing they have not said is anything to the extent of "We will never do anything to address the concerns about overland difficulty." And until they do, I will keep coming here, trying to voice my support for the idea, while maintaining what we have, because I am willing to respect the feelings of others and believe that we can have the best of both worlds. More specifically, I believe there are numerous ways they could implement a harder overland difficulty, keep the player base united, and maintain the ability for players who like the current difficulty where it is at to keep enjoying the game their way.

TaSheen

This thread was stickied because there were way too many threads on the forum every day about this subject. See post #1 by @ZOS_Kevin.

Tornaad

TaSheen wrote: »

This thread was stickied because there were way too many threads on the forum every day about this subject. See post #1 by @ZOS_Kevin.

Too many threads equals a lot of interest. A lot of interest equals a potential business opportunity. In this case, because the fan base is divided, they need to be careful.

SilverBride

Tornaad wrote: »

TaSheen wrote: »

This thread was stickied because there were way too many threads on the forum every day about this subject. See post #1 by @ZOS_Kevin.

Too many threads equals a lot of interest. A lot of interest equals a potential business opportunity. In this case, because the fan base is divided, they need to be careful.

It wasn't a lot of threads by a lot of different posters.

What was happening was that a player would create a thread on this subject that devolved and ended up being locked. A few days later another thread would be created that followed the same pattern of devolving and being locked. Most of these threads were started by the same small handful of posters, and were posted on by the same small handful of posters on each side of the debate, much like this pinned thread is.

spartaxoxo

While it's true that the forum threads were created that way at the time this sticky was made, this has been a common piece of feedback that the devs have received from many vet players for a long time. They have chosen to address it on multiple occasions and also have acknowledged it's a common feedback from vets.

The gist I have gotten from their feedback over the years is that is not something that the majority seems interested in, but something a large amount of vets have been interested in. And that the level of interest is not small even though the majority prefers casual.

SilverBride

This is true to a degree. I've been around a long time and have gotten into veteran group content, and I consider myself a veteran player. But I absolutely do not want overland more difficult. That is my chill time when playing and I need that to balance my play time.

I'm not against a debuff of some type, or challenge banners for story bosses, but I am against a separate veteran overland.

Tornaad

SilverBride wrote: »

Tornaad wrote: »

TaSheen wrote: »

This thread was stickied because there were way too many threads on the forum every day about this subject. See post #1 by @ZOS_Kevin.

Too many threads equals a lot of interest. A lot of interest equals a potential business opportunity. In this case, because the fan base is divided, they need to be careful.

It wasn't a lot of threads by a lot of different posters.

What was happening was that a player would create a thread on this subject that devolved and ended up being locked. A few days later another thread would be created that followed the same pattern of devolving and being locked. Most of these threads were started by the same small handful of posters, and were posted on by the same small handful of posters on each side of the debate, much like this pinned thread is.

For every person who a business gets feedback from there are hundreds if not thousands of people who never speak up. For example, in the average call center, not accounting for duplicate callers, less than 2% of customers will call in a given month. And even among those who call in, many companies will grade their employees by a metric called TNPS and will aggressively send surveys to those who call in and if you can get a 5% response rate, you are doing really good.

So, while yes, even among this thread, there is technically a small number of people on both sides who are engaging in discussion, it still represents a much larger base of customers, most of whom never voice their opinions. When it comes to consumer research, things like this thread are a gold mine for decision makers to use to predict what a significant and very silent majority of their consumer base will be interested in.

TaSheen

*shrug* I no longer have a horse in this race. The devs can do as they will. If the game at that point becomes not fun for me, I'll put my money elsewhere.

I'm done with this; I'm too old to bother any more.

SilverBride

Tornaad wrote: »

For every person who a business gets feedback from there are hundreds if not thousands of people who never speak up. For example, in the average call center, not accounting for duplicate callers, less than 2% of customers will call in a given month. And even among those who call in, many companies will grade their employees by a metric called TNPS and will aggressively send surveys to those who call in and if you can get a 5% response rate, you are doing really good.

So, while yes, even among this thread, there is technically a small number of people on both sides who are engaging in discussion, it still represents a much larger base of customers, most of whom never voice their opinions. When it comes to consumer research, things like this thread are a gold mine for decision makers to use to predict what a significant and very silent majority of their consumer base will be interested in.

I agree that it's a very small percentage of players that post on the forums. But the percentage that doesn't post represents players on both sides of this argument, not just those wanting more difficult overland.

As far as the silent majority, it's been shown that people that are ok with something often don't bother to come forward with their views because that are happy and aren't looking for change. It's the vocal minority that make their issue public because they are unhappy and want something to change. The fact that they are more vocal doesn't mean there are more of them than those that are happy with things just as they are.

Another point I'd like to make is that every single aspect of the game should not conform to one particular play style. There are a variety of activities so that there is something for everyone. Overland is the only combat activity that isn't completely a challenge.

Those that like difficulty have normal and veteran dungeons and arenas and trials and Bastion Nymics and I assume the endless dungeon will have a veteran mode. If they create a veteran overland so that all combat activities will be challenging then they need to also give the rest of us solo story mode dungeons and trials and arenas so that all play styles are equally represented.

Tornaad

SilverBride wrote: »

Tornaad wrote: »

For every person who a business gets feedback from there are hundreds if not thousands of people who never speak up. For example, in the average call center, not accounting for duplicate callers, less than 2% of customers will call in a given month. And even among those who call in, many companies will grade their employees by a metric called TNPS and will aggressively send surveys to those who call in and if you can get a 5% response rate, you are doing really good.

So, while yes, even among this thread, there is technically a small number of people on both sides who are engaging in discussion, it still represents a much larger base of customers, most of whom never voice their opinions. When it comes to consumer research, things like this thread are a gold mine for decision makers to use to predict what a significant and very silent majority of their consumer base will be interested in.

I agree that it's a very small percentage of players that post on the forums. But the percentage that doesn't post represents players on both sides of this argument, not just those wanting more difficult overland.

As far as the silent majority, it's been shown that people that are ok with something often don't bother to come forward with their views because that are happy and aren't looking for change. It's the vocal minority that make their issue public because they are unhappy and want something to change. The fact that they are more vocal doesn't mean there are more of them than those that are happy with things just as they are.

Another point I'd like to make is that every single aspect of the game should not conform to one particular play style. There are a variety of activities so that there is something for everyone. Overland is the only combat activity that isn't completely a challenge.

Those that like difficulty have normal and veteran dungeons and arenas and trials and Bastion Nymics and I assume the endless dungeon will have a veteran mode. If they create a veteran overland so that all combat activities will be challenging then they need to also give the rest of us solo story mode dungeons and trials and arenas so that all play styles are equally represented.

If you are so convinced that the developers are never going to take action on this, then what is your goal of engaging in this thread?

SilverBride

Tornaad wrote: »

If you are so convinced that the developers are never going to take action on this, then what is your goal of engaging in this thread?

To represent my side of this debate. I may not believe a separate veteran overland is going to happen, but I never said they won't take any action. They did give us Bastion Nymics which they stated was one answer to this.

"With that being said, we do recognize a lot of people want increased overland difficulty and the new world events (Bastion Nymics) that are instanced for up to 4 players in Necrom is one of our answers to that."

https://eso-u.com/articles/eso_developer_ama__las_vegas_global_reveal_2023

Braffin

SilverBride wrote: »

Tornaad wrote: »

If you are so convinced that the developers are never going to take action on this, then what is your goal of engaging in this thread?

To represent my side of this debate. I may not believe a separate veteran overland is going to happen, but I never said they won't take any action. They did give us Bastion Nymics which they stated was one answer to this.

"With that being said, we do recognize a lot of people want increased overland difficulty and the new world events (Bastion Nymics) that are instanced for up to 4 players in Necrom is one of our answers to that."

https://eso-u.com/articles/eso_developer_ama__las_vegas_global_reveal_2023

So they already announced, that there will be further changes. I appreciate that.

SilverBride

That's what it sounds like to me, too. I am fine with them adding more like that, as long as my questing and story stay easy so I can have some chill game time. And no splitting the playerbase.

Diebesgut

@SilverBride

... i'm one of the silent majority.
i could write here endless but it would be in no way helpful.

the few people who want to destroy this game, quarreling all the time: its too easy, i will leave this game (why dont they do this...) this people shoud get their own vet overland universum, shoot them to another planet server, instance or whatever. put them in the hardest mode, let there be pvp everywhere. let them hack and slay and kill 24/7, let them get their challenge and their fun - but far far away from the real game and all the players who just want to play this fine game without stress and with pleasure.

so thats the opinion of one of the silent majority (and of very much people in the guilds i am)
its in no way helpful, people will hate and spit at me... i'm back now in the silence.

---> gone fishing with this new argonion buddy 🎣

Tornaad

.

SilverBride wrote: »

Tornaad wrote: »

If you are so convinced that the developers are never going to take action on this, then what is your goal of engaging in this thread?

To represent my side of this debate. I may not believe a separate veteran overland is going to happen, but I never said they won't take any action. They did give us Bastion Nymics which they stated was one answer to this.

"With that being said, we do recognize a lot of people want increased overland difficulty and the new world events (Bastion Nymics) that are instanced for up to 4 players in Necrom is one of our answers to that."

https://eso-u.com/articles/eso_developer_ama__las_vegas_global_reveal_2023

Thank you for that link. I enjoyed the read.

SilverBride

Tornaad wrote: »

.

SilverBride wrote: »

Tornaad wrote: »

If you are so convinced that the developers are never going to take action on this, then what is your goal of engaging in this thread?

To represent my side of this debate. I may not believe a separate veteran overland is going to happen, but I never said they won't take any action. They did give us Bastion Nymics which they stated was one answer to this.

"With that being said, we do recognize a lot of people want increased overland difficulty and the new world events (Bastion Nymics) that are instanced for up to 4 players in Necrom is one of our answers to that."

https://eso-u.com/articles/eso_developer_ama__las_vegas_global_reveal_2023

Thank you for that link. I enjoyed the read.

You are welcome.

I think it is important to note that they are hearing the feedback and they are looking for ways to address those that want more overland difficulty. This is why I feel it's important to reinforce that many want the questing and story to remain as they are, so any further changes that address the difficulty issue don't negatively impact others in the process.

Anumaril

SilverBride wrote: »

We have been told that there are no major changes planned for overland difficulty.

ZOS have said similar things in the past and eventually caved to pressure. Them stating that there are no plans for it right now does not mean there can't ever be. Players should continue to voice their displeasure with overland content until ZOS actually does something about it. We shouldn't just tell those players to sod off.

SilverBride wrote: »

We have been told that they do not want to split the playerbase.

Great, because I haven't seen anyone advocate for that. Mostly I've seen people advocate for a difficulty scaler or optional debuff.

SilverBride wrote: »

We have been told that a slider or other similar concepts are not as easy as just flipping a switch.

I'm sure it wouldn't be easy, but I still think it should be implemented. Clearly the playerbase isn't 100% behind the idea of increased difficulty for overland content, but clearly a big chunk IS interested in it. Why should those players be ignored? A scaler, while it would take work, wouldn't negatively affect those who don't engage with it.

If I were in the business of arguing against content other players want but I don't personally care for, I'd argue against the constant new trials and dungeons. I don't argue against those because I know a chunk of the playerbase really enjoys engaging with that content, and it would be nonsensical to deprive them of a better gameplay experience, even if it requires some developer time.

A scaler would be the best solution here, but requires a lot of dev work to get implemented. An optional debuff would be less work and more easily implementable. But I'll go ahead and propose another possible "solution": Mortal's Mask for vampires. Since their overhaul, vamps come with a lot of great debuffs for increased overland difficulty, including a 100% health regeneration debuff. This would increase overland difficulty a huge amount for those of us interested in that gameplay. Right now, however, it's not realistic since being a vampire gives that horrible snow-white skin.

Having a Mortal's Mask skin to remove it would not only serve vampire players who find it immersion-breaking when they play vampires (vamps are known for being able to sneak around and blend in after all), but it would also serve players who want an extra challenge but don't necessarily want their character to look like a vampire. Maybe you're roleplaying a vampire hunter, or chivalrous knight, or literally anything else which is explicitly not a vamp. Mortal's Mask allows you to get those immersive and challenging debuffs while also letting you carry on with enjoying your character.

SilverBride

Anumaril wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

We have been told that they do not want to split the playerbase.

Great, because I haven't seen anyone advocate for that. Mostly I've seen people advocate for a difficulty scaler or optional debuff.

There are posters in this thread asking for a separate veteran overland only and not being receptive to debuffs or sliders.

Tornaad

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SilverBride wrote: »

Anumaril wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

We have been told that they do not want to split the playerbase.

Great, because I haven't seen anyone advocate for that. Mostly I've seen people advocate for a difficulty scaler or optional debuff.

There are posters in this thread asking for a separate veteran overland only and not being receptive to debuffs or sliders.

Would you say that the majority of people are open to the slider/debuff option or would you say that most people are only interested in separate instances? And if you had to give your best off the top of your head guess for what percentage of people are in each group, then how would you split it?

SilverBride

Tornaad wrote: »

.

SilverBride wrote: »

Anumaril wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

We have been told that they do not want to split the playerbase.

Great, because I haven't seen anyone advocate for that. Mostly I've seen people advocate for a difficulty scaler or optional debuff.

There are posters in this thread asking for a separate veteran overland only and not being receptive to debuffs or sliders.

Would you say that the majority of people are open to the slider/debuff option or would you say that most people are only interested in separate instances? And if you had to give your best off the top of your head guess for what percentage of people are in each group, then how would you split it?

I am not going to try to figure that out. It has absolutely no bearing on my reply to the other poster that yes there have been several posters in this thread that have stated they do not find a debuff acceptable and would only be satisfied with a separate veteran overland.

Tornaad

Is there any option for a (obviously selective) increased overland difficulty you would accept?

SilverBride

Tornaad wrote: »

Is there any option for a (obviously selective) increased overland difficulty you would accept?

I have said all along that I support debuff foods, potions and gear sets and challenge banners for quest story bosses, because those affect no one but the player using them.

The only thing I do not support is a separate veteran overland and I agree with ZoS's decision to not split the playerbase.

Tornaad

SilverBride wrote: »

Tornaad wrote: »

Is there any option for a (obviously selective) increased overland difficulty you would accept?

I have said all along that I support debuff foods, potions and gear sets and challenge banners for quest story bosses, because those affect no one but the player using them.

The only thing I do not support is a separate veteran overland and I agree with ZoS's decision to not split the playerbase.

Awesome.
Then I am now 100% for something like debuff foods, potions and gear sets or challenge banners for quest story bosses.

edit
I think of those options, I like the idea of the challenge banners best.

Snamyap

[

SilverBride wrote: »

This is true to a degree. I've been around a long time and have gotten into veteran group content, and I consider myself a veteran player. But I absolutely do not want overland more difficult. That is my chill time when playing and I need that to balance my play time.

I'm not against a debuff of some type, or challenge banners for story bosses, but I am against a separate veteran overland.

I personally don't give a rat's bottom about veteran overland, at least not anymore. But I do care about immersion. When a story is about someone or something planning the end of the world it feels lame if that antagonist is a complete pushover. I would be very happy if they would add more solo instances into the (main) quest lines with an optional more difficult version. And I don't care about extra rewards for that either, I just want the story to make sense.

SilverBride

Snamyap wrote: »

I personally don't give a rat's bottom about veteran overland, at least not anymore. But I do care about immersion. When a story is about someone or something planning the end of the world it feels lame if that antagonist is a complete pushover. I would be very happy if they would add more solo instances into the (main) quest lines with an optional more difficult version. And I don't care about extra rewards for that either, I just want the story to make sense.

The antagonist isn't a complete pushover for players new to ESO and low level and low geared players. But I agree that challenge banners for these bosses would be beneficial for those that wish to use them.

Tornaad

Snamyap wrote: »

[

SilverBride wrote: »

This is true to a degree. I've been around a long time and have gotten into veteran group content, and I consider myself a veteran player. But I absolutely do not want overland more difficult. That is my chill time when playing and I need that to balance my play time.

I'm not against a debuff of some type, or challenge banners for story bosses, but I am against a separate veteran overland.

I personally don't give a rat's bottom about veteran overland, at least not anymore. But I do care about immersion. When a story is about someone or something planning the end of the world it feels lame if that antagonist is a complete pushover. I would be very happy if they would add more solo instances into the (main) quest lines with an optional more difficult version. And I don't care about extra rewards for that either, I just want the story to make sense.

To be fair, if my character has faced or is close to being able to face a Deadric prince in combat, there are going to be a lot of pushover enemies in the world.

Taraezor

Hi. I'm super casual. Up to a year or two ago I struggled with all content. I've been playing since the start of ESO.

I did, one day, git good. Now overland content is often easy, but still a challenge in the newer zones for certain mobs.

Please do NOT make regular Overland harder.

Please ALWAYS ensure that ALL of the zone's story is accessible in Overland, with some side embellishments available in dungeons and trials, as always has been the case.

Please do NOT add a veteran mode to Overland IF that means that average players like me will get a feeling that we are missing out on (a) story content, (b) accessibility to gear.

(b) is important. My characters are equipped with the best quality crafted gear or gear farmed from many lower to mid level solo dungeon runs - I then alter traits in Clockwork City and gold the gear with my maxed out crafting characters.

But if I then noticed that I must switch to veteran to run Overland content then I'll be disappointed. If veteran means gold rather than blue or purple quality drops then no problem. But if the sets are completely different or indeed only, say, shoulders or necks drop in veteran, then I'd be really upset.

The crafting system, compared to other games, is a masterpiece - the time gating is just right for me!

Please make the ESO+ daily log in rewards better - they suck big time.